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TheMadMonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 05:11 AM
Response to Reply #129
133. So close and yet so far.
Cotton can't be "ecconomically" mono-cultured without the application of an enormous quantity of chemicals. Particularly pesticides. FULL STOP!

Cotton may well grow "anywhere", but to get nice pristine bolls and long fibers suitable for machine processing, either the plants have to be well separated, because if the plants are close together, or even intertwined as is standard practice, infestations of pests will spread to every plant. And the close packing of the plants makes irrigation far more necessary since the plants can't spread out their roots to take advantage

Mary Jane on the other hand a) produces linear fibers, totally unlike the tangles fibers of a cotton boll, throughout the entire plant. A plant can be chomped to shreds by pests ans provided it remains standing at all it can still produces quality fiber; and b) it sneers at pests anyway, because it evolved to mono-culture, (or it has been mono-cultured for long enough that evolution has tamed MJ's pest species.) I suspect habit has a good deal to do with the continued used of over irrigation and fertilisation. MJ's tolerance to both means there is no indicator to say enough is enough.

Cotton may well grow with nothing but water and something to anchor itself to, but not as a viable machine havestable and processable, commercial, bulk fiber crop. Not without close packing (which requires more water per square meter); pesticides to keep insect infestations from happening; and added nutrients to maximise the per plant productivity. Harvested cotton represents a tiny fraction of even the most productive plant. Yield per acre is everything.

As for "can grow without irrigation", think about where it IS grown commercially in the Americas. And think about what the geographic and hydrographic conditions were when cotton growing was established. The Carribean with it's huge rainfalls, and the "good old South" with the grand old Mississippi flanked by swamps and flood plains. Plenty of water again. Fertile flood plains of course go to cash crops, and the cotton grows on the verges of worthless swampland. (who cares about a few niggers taking sick of malaria). Then we figure out how to drain the swamps and turn it into productive land. And the "worthless" criterion for cotton growing switches from "too soggy" to "nutrient challenged" and irrigation comes into play. There are a whole raft of interconnected factors: slaves; the jenny; land reclamation; inertia; and many more, which over the years served to keep cotton going. And now in many many areas, only publicly funded "life support" maintains it viability at all.

Cotton grows best "naturally" in a fairly specific type of worthless soil. Hemp on the other hand can cope with both a very wide range of both nutrient AND moisture levels. As it becomes more and more clear that agricultural runoff is to blame for a good many environmental woes, and being Green is no longer just for loony fringe dwellers the pressure to limit the use of artificial soil additives is becoming significant.

Cotton is dead for everything but niche applications, the moment a viable decent "natural" silk fiber comes out of a vat. "Natural" spider silks will give a lot of other fibers a hammering to boot.

MJ's claim to fame is that the parts of the plant we are mostly interested in using are the bits which are usually waste in other crops. Serendipitously the bit we are most interested in for fiber production: the stringy "growing" layer on the outside and the supportive woody part in the middle, are the parts the plant needs to make the most of in order to "construct" itself. Thus these bits are pretty much just carbon, hydrogen abd oxygen with bugger all of anything else. Carbon dioxide and water.

And just to put the cherry on top. The other gross part of the plant which is commercially useful the seeds are the something a plant devoted the lion's share of it's "efforts" and even more so when conditions are not the best. Adding water (up to a point) will always improve fiber production, but unlike with many other crops, there is far less bang per bug from fertilsers. It's "soil improving" qualities suggests it fixes it's own nitrogen, (Which if you look at it in the right way is has a far stronger claim to the tittle "Element of life" than Carbon. Carbon undeniably is the scaffold of life. But Nitrogen is the element that characterises proteins, the mutable, "living" part of life.)

So once you meet the water needs of the plant, to whit: the point where photosynthesis can't churn out sugars any faster; and which can be accomplished with very frugal drip (or subsurface soak) irrigation, if needed at all. Trace element needs to match this are quite small. Fertilisation is except in the deadest of soils (and I've seen 6m+ plants grown in some bloody crap soil without any help at all) is pissing money up against the wall or advance preparation for whatever crop comes after. Charcoal/Biochar (even clean coke from coal) would probably be a better bet. (That's another essay)

MJ could be inter-cropped with trees slated for lumber. In the early years fast growth of mj to 2-3m in height will encourage trees to start tall and straight as they reach for the sunlight. As the trees mature the MJ starts "reaching" for the sun, seed production drops off, but fiber production increases significantly.

MJ and a modicum of water and planing could be used to march waves of forest across deserts if we think big enough. Forest do need rain to grow, but forests also create rain by returning water to the atmosphere.

One thing we're going to have to seriously consider is tossing out the idea of "pure consevation". Gross human interference has gotten us into this state and it's going to take gross human interference to get us out of this mess. Forget about "Fixing" and "Putting them right/back." the best we can hope for now is "making good".

That means thinking about doing the seemingly unthinkable, callously destroying whole ecosystems and/or chunks of history. Flood the Lake Eyre in South Australia and the Dead Sea basin and another in Africa on the other side of the Red Sea. Digging canals or tunnels to the sea has been within our capabilities for about a century now. (It would be hugely interesting to see models of what such flooding would do.

If we can dig holes measured in cubic kilometers, we can pile dirt and rock just as high and build moisture dumping hills and mountains in just the right places.

Microwaves from space to guide (and even make) weather is on the cards for a not too distance future.

Save whatever species we can by doing will he nil she transplantations of threatened species into potentially viable climate zones and letting nature take its course. Drop a dozen or two of everything in enough places and we should manage to save a fair proportion of otherwise doomed species. And those that die, die. Better to save what we can than loose the lot while we wring our hand that we can't save them all.

Monkey meddling is a given. Better to do so with imperfect forethought, than heedless greed, neh?

:hippie: :smoke: :evilgrin:
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  -I recently came across some Handspun Antique Hemp Nightgowns - I now know why Pot is illegal debbierlus  Oct-27-07 02:31 PM   #0 
  - Very interesting  tmfun   Oct-27-07 02:34 PM   #1 
  - I don't have any photos right now, but I will get on it  debbierlus   Oct-27-07 02:36 PM   #4 
  - Space material!  comtec   Oct-29-07 07:02 AM   #188 
  - It's a mystery why growing industrial hemp is banned in this country.  Vinca   Oct-27-07 02:35 PM   #2 
  - They don't care about people getting high, anyway  debbierlus   Oct-27-07 02:38 PM   #7 
  - So being it's made from an illegal plant can they arrest you and  FREEWILL56   Oct-27-07 06:16 PM   #61 
     - Thankfully, no.  crikkett   Oct-27-07 07:07 PM   #81 
     - NO - hemp made products are allowed in the US...  axollot   Oct-27-07 11:06 PM   #118 
     - I have a couple of shirts made from hemp.  IMModerate   Oct-28-07 08:43 AM   #142 
  - It's because you cannot patent a plant  Greeby   Oct-27-07 02:44 PM   #12 
  - Monsanto has a lot of grains patented now.  havocmom   Oct-27-07 05:17 PM   #48 
     - That in and of itself is a crime against humanity, how can anyone be allowed to patent a seed?  whistle   Oct-28-07 07:12 AM   #136 
     - Agribusiness story ifrom Iraq ...  flashl   Oct-28-07 09:18 AM   #148 
  - it's not a mystery - Ford & the new oil barons stopped it  donsu   Oct-28-07 09:35 AM   #151 
     - Also, Hearst had something to do with it!  Duval   Oct-28-07 10:27 AM   #156 
        - yes, true  donsu   Oct-28-07 11:26 AM   #160 
  - Hemp hemp hooray!!!  citizen_jane   Oct-27-07 02:36 PM   #3 
  - Give me a HIGH 5.  FREEWILL56   Oct-27-07 06:11 PM   #58 
  - I've always pictured the canvass- like hemp fabrics I've seen  hlthe2b   Oct-27-07 02:36 PM   #5 
  - They aren't quite as soft as cotton, but they aren't stiff at all  debbierlus   Oct-27-07 02:42 PM   #11 
  - cool... I'll look for it  hlthe2b   Oct-27-07 02:46 PM   #13 
  - Fabric softness of plant fibers  venuspluto   Oct-28-07 10:08 AM   #153 
     - Welcome to DU!  eppur_se_muova   Oct-28-07 02:59 PM   #176 
  - Hemp fabrics are wonderful.  silverweb   Oct-27-07 02:56 PM   #19 
     - Thanks for the links, silverweb, and your comments.  Judi Lynn   Oct-27-07 04:41 PM   #39 
     - You're welcome!  silverweb   Oct-27-07 07:03 PM   #76 
     - Thanks for those links!  kimmylavin   Oct-27-07 04:44 PM   #42 
     - You're very welcome!  silverweb   Oct-27-07 07:04 PM   #78 
     - Thanks for the links!!!!  wovenpaint   Oct-27-07 07:39 PM   #85 
     - You're most welcome.  silverweb   Oct-27-07 09:34 PM   #105 
     - thanks  shanti   Oct-27-07 11:12 PM   #120 
     - You sure are lucky.  silverweb   Oct-27-07 11:47 PM   #127 
     - Thanks for these links  venuspluto   Oct-28-07 10:20 AM   #155 
  - Are they haunted?  smoogatz   Oct-27-07 02:37 PM   #6 
  - I don't know, & living in a 140 year old house across from a cemetary...  debbierlus   Oct-27-07 02:39 PM   #8 
     - Wow.  smoogatz   Oct-27-07 02:40 PM   #10 
     - As an old house nut...  hootinholler   Oct-27-07 03:05 PM   #22 
        - Old houses  venuspluto   Oct-28-07 10:16 AM   #154 
  - that's exactly why they made it illegal - Dupont and Dow can hold much of the blame  mark414   Oct-27-07 02:40 PM   #9 
  - A really good history of that  dougolat   Oct-28-07 09:57 PM   #181 
  - Kicked and Recomended. I was just saying that in this thread.  Bonobo   Oct-27-07 02:47 PM   #14 
  - I hope you are  Mojorabbit   Oct-27-07 02:48 PM   #15 
  - We need to outlaw ALL campaign contributions and go to sensible public financing NOW. It'll end all  williesgirl   Oct-27-07 02:50 PM   #16 
  - Exactly right. K&R.  dickbearton   Oct-27-07 05:20 PM   #49 
  - You don't mean the free market do you?  tmfun   Oct-27-07 10:03 PM   #109 
  - We musn't forget the timber industry - they don't like hemp  spacelady   Oct-27-07 02:54 PM   #17 
  - Outlawing hemp is un-American  IDemo   Oct-27-07 02:56 PM   #18 
  - The Declaration of Independence was printed on hemp paper.  hobbit709   Oct-27-07 06:25 PM   #64 
  - I have a bunch of hemp shirts  sailor65   Oct-27-07 02:58 PM   #20 
  - Where do you get them?  silverweb   Oct-27-07 03:16 PM   #24 
     - Lately,  sailor65   Oct-27-07 04:04 PM   #34 
     - Fantastic!  silverweb   Oct-27-07 07:05 PM   #79 
        - I hope yours still has some  sailor65   Oct-27-07 09:13 PM   #101 
           - It'll be okay.  silverweb   Oct-27-07 09:23 PM   #103 
     - The operative words being "reasonably priced".  impeachdubya   Oct-27-07 04:41 PM   #38 
        - Thanks for the link!  silverweb   Oct-27-07 07:13 PM   #82 
  - Okay, everyone, I put up the images in the original post for those who were curious to see  debbierlus   Oct-27-07 03:03 PM   #21 
  - K&R One the most insightful posts I've ever read on DU.  Rosemary2205   Oct-27-07 03:13 PM   #23 
  - I am with you  The Straight Story   Oct-27-07 03:16 PM   #25 
  - That's very cool - thanks for the pics & info!  InvisibleTouch   Oct-27-07 03:17 PM   #26 
  - So, since hemp clothes last forever,this could threaten the garment industry?  rabies1   Oct-28-07 09:08 AM   #147 
     - Why, yes...  gtar100   Oct-28-07 01:12 PM   #173 
  - Great find!  SecularMotion   Oct-27-07 03:20 PM   #27 
  - Bingo!  MN Against Bush   Oct-27-07 03:24 PM   #28 
  - They are great!  Kajsa   Oct-27-07 03:25 PM   #29 
  - Those are beautiful. I've tried spinning hemp  Warpy   Oct-27-07 03:25 PM   #30 
  - Exactly!  NoGodsNoMasters   Oct-28-07 12:19 AM   #130 
  - Two technological developments sealed hemp's fate  venuspluto   Oct-28-07 12:25 PM   #167 
  - Great Post! FYI, Hemp WAS Originally Made Illegal Because of the WOOD PULP INDUSTRY  Beetwasher   Oct-27-07 03:28 PM   #31 
  - And the reason they said "marijuana" was to pull on racism  Chulanowa   Oct-27-07 07:40 PM   #86 
  - Hemp and Marijuana are NOT the same thing:  Lorien   Oct-27-07 07:55 PM   #88 
  - But They Were BOTH Made Illegal  Beetwasher   Oct-27-07 08:42 PM   #95 
     - Yes, I am quite aware of that  Lorien   Oct-27-07 09:07 PM   #98 
        - Sure I Did  Beetwasher   Oct-27-07 09:10 PM   #100 
  - William Randolph Hearst owned a lot of timber as well as his papers that  diane in sf   Oct-27-07 07:55 PM   #89 
  - Kicked and recommended.  Uncle Joe   Oct-27-07 03:34 PM   #32 
  - During WWII here  catmandu57   Oct-27-07 04:02 PM   #33 
     - same here where i live  madrchsod   Oct-27-07 05:02 PM   #45 
        - Thats it  catmandu57   Oct-28-07 10:33 AM   #157 
  - The first diesel engine was designed to run on hemp oil  downindixie   Oct-27-07 04:30 PM   #35 
  - Actually, I believe it was peanut oil ... but it was sure as hell BIOdiesel!  eppur_se_muova   Oct-27-07 09:48 PM   #106 
  - That's called "no repeat business" . . . on ALL fronts.  HughBeaumont   Oct-27-07 04:32 PM   #36 
  - Well, we could always blow things up when big bidness needs an influx  bluerum   Oct-27-07 05:09 PM   #47 
  - That's the Neo-Con Creed:  HughBeaumont   Oct-27-07 07:58 PM   #90 
  - It's "The Man in the White Suit" ... for REAL!  eppur_se_muova   Oct-27-07 10:02 PM   #108 
  - I've got some hemp shirts. They last FOREVER.  impeachdubya   Oct-27-07 04:39 PM   #37 
  - Sadly, it won't be.  HughBeaumont   Oct-27-07 04:45 PM   #43 
  - Great post!  Window   Oct-27-07 04:41 PM   #40 
  - I make soap with hemp oil...  Neecy   Oct-27-07 04:42 PM   #41 
  - Ooh, I'll bet that's great soap.  knitter4democracy   Oct-27-07 06:50 PM   #71 
  - I make lotions with it!  Psst_Im_Not_Here   Oct-27-07 09:59 PM   #107 
  - So post a link! I think you could sell some here  tmfun   Oct-27-07 10:20 PM   #112 
     - okay...  Neecy   Oct-27-07 11:39 PM   #126 
  - Wow.  kimmylavin   Oct-27-07 04:49 PM   #44 
  - It is so incredible...of course, we must give hats off to the ladies  debbierlus   Oct-27-07 05:03 PM   #46 
     - Chances are, some men were involved.  knitter4democracy   Oct-27-07 06:51 PM   #72 
  - Textiles, cloth, four times as much paper per acre, fuel oil, food source (seeds)...  Zhade   Oct-27-07 05:21 PM   #50 
  - The industries that work  Froward69   Oct-27-07 05:22 PM   #51 
  - Prison Industrial Complex.  tekisui   Oct-28-07 11:24 AM   #159 
  - Beautiful!  piesRsquare   Oct-27-07 05:25 PM   #52 
  - I don't believe that.  hfojvt   Oct-27-07 05:26 PM   #53 
  - "we mostly buy clothing to get the latest style, to get brighter colors"  Johnny Noshoes   Oct-28-07 07:51 AM   #138 
  - Hemp linen is great at shedding stains and dirt.  knitter4democracy   Oct-28-07 08:56 AM   #145 
  - Another source of Hemp fabric:  formercia   Oct-27-07 05:35 PM   #54 
  - Don't forget about paper.  Bright Eyes   Oct-27-07 05:35 PM   #55 
  - Randolph Hurst owned a paper mill and forestland. Hemp was a threat  alfredo   Oct-27-07 06:01 PM   #57 
  - Yep... the Constitution was written on Hemp paper.  Blue Belle   Oct-27-07 08:27 PM   #91 
     - So, instead of legalizing hemp we'll chop down all our forests.  CrispyQGirl   Oct-28-07 11:54 AM   #164 
        - pretty much....  Blue Belle   Oct-28-07 12:12 PM   #165 
  - Thanks  jimnkara   Oct-27-07 05:44 PM   #56 
  - Big Welcome to you, jimnkara! With the body of evidence and  spacelady   Oct-27-07 06:12 PM   #59 
     - Thank you  jimnkara   Oct-27-07 06:15 PM   #60 
        - I'm relatively new, too  venuspluto   Oct-28-07 12:32 PM   #169 
  - With all due respect  Tab   Oct-27-07 06:18 PM   #62 
  - Respectfully, it isn't the religions fundies...  SteveM   Oct-27-07 06:45 PM   #68 
     - They fear Pot more than the harder drugs because, though it isn't  patrice   Oct-28-07 12:39 AM   #132 
        - I bet if we told them  Tab   Oct-28-07 12:35 PM   #170 
           - I'll bet you're right about that!!  patrice   Oct-28-07 12:44 PM   #171 
  - Hemp versus cotton  Bennyboy   Oct-27-07 06:20 PM   #63 
  - What about water? Cotton is one of the world's biggest consumers of water.  eppur_se_muova   Oct-27-07 09:17 PM   #102 
  - gotta love the cotton lobby then.  pansypoo53219   Oct-27-07 10:27 PM   #113 
     - HEMP can save the world!  Bennyboy   Oct-27-07 10:39 PM   #114 
        - I would like to get hold of that 1948 PM article ...  eppur_se_muova   Oct-27-07 11:02 PM   #116 
           - Popular Mechanics article 1938  Bennyboy   Oct-28-07 07:58 AM   #140 
              - Thankee kindly! nt  eppur_se_muova   Oct-28-07 02:55 PM   #175 
  - Don't blame cotton for the way modern agriculture treats it  Tumbulu   Oct-28-07 12:19 AM   #129 
     - So close and yet so far.  TheMadMonk   Oct-28-07 05:11 AM   #133 
        - Not quite.  knitter4democracy   Oct-28-07 08:52 AM   #144 
  - Kicked and Recommended!! n/t  StephenB48   Oct-27-07 06:35 PM   #65 
  - Question on the stitching.  Opposite Reaction   Oct-27-07 06:37 PM   #66 
  - Not from that time period as far as I know from my research.  knitter4democracy   Oct-27-07 06:53 PM   #73 
  - That's not "too uniform", it was just stitched by someone with good eyesight...  dicksteele   Oct-27-07 09:26 PM   #104 
     - Amazing. I can't imagine doing that by hand!  Opposite Reaction   Oct-27-07 10:15 PM   #111 
  - It looks a bit like linen....  femrap   Oct-27-07 06:37 PM   #67 
  - Flax and hemp can be very hard to tell apart.  knitter4democracy   Oct-27-07 06:55 PM   #74 
     - Isn't Canada now allowed to grow  femrap   Oct-28-07 07:44 PM   #177 
        - They do. The hemp/wool blend yarn I like is Canadian.  knitter4democracy   Oct-28-07 09:08 PM   #179 
  - Hm. My education never ends. This was concept of a hemp dress:  Buzz Clik   Oct-27-07 06:46 PM   #69 
  - There's a reason why it was the first handspun fiber.  knitter4democracy   Oct-27-07 06:48 PM   #70 
  - And from what I've read, one of the largest sources of pollution immediately  defendandprotect   Oct-27-07 11:31 PM   #125 
     - Not true. They're still cleaning up the mess from dyes.  knitter4democracy   Oct-28-07 08:42 AM   #141 
  - That is fascinating!!  Sparkly   Oct-27-07 06:56 PM   #75 
  - Hemp For Victory!  gulfcoastliberal   Oct-27-07 07:04 PM   #77 
  - Great find.....  Bennyboy   Oct-28-07 07:54 AM   #139 
  - I eat hemp seeds everyday from the healthfood store.  rainy   Oct-27-07 07:05 PM   #80 
  - Why can't you grow hemp from these hemp seeds? Are they cooked? nt  eppur_se_muova   Oct-27-07 10:04 PM   #110 
     - Not cooked.  Greyskye   Oct-28-07 12:02 AM   #128 
        - hey, I wonder if that's true. The package says raw.  rainy   Oct-28-07 07:36 AM   #137 
           - Why is it they are afraid of the raw almonds? Too good as a cancer  glowing   Oct-28-07 09:34 AM   #150 
              - Here's the story. Raw almonds caused some problems for big corporate  rainy   Oct-28-07 11:26 AM   #161 
  - Wow. That's incredible.  Katherine Brengle   Oct-27-07 07:20 PM   #83 
  - Yep-thank you DuPont et al  wovenpaint   Oct-27-07 07:29 PM   #84 
  - good info here:  jhain   Oct-28-07 07:07 AM   #134 
  - hemp oil could also be used as an alternative fuel....many reasons to suppress this plant  spanone   Oct-27-07 07:42 PM   #87 
  - Thank you and share your story here also please  SHRED   Oct-27-07 08:29 PM   #92 
  - Good post  Oldenuff   Oct-27-07 08:34 PM   #93 
  - Yes. !!!!!!  troubleinwinter   Oct-27-07 08:38 PM   #94 
  - Industrial grown hemp is the enemy of "pot"  SHRED   Oct-27-07 08:50 PM   #96 
  - There's so much to learn about this almost perfect product  Catchawave   Oct-27-07 09:00 PM   #97 
  - Excellent point - that's why good smoking weed cannot be grown  spacelady   Oct-27-07 11:19 PM   #122 
  - absolutely. The plant you want for industial use  Capn Sunshine   Oct-27-07 11:30 PM   #124 
  - Wow. This has been a very educational "thread". Ha! Pun intended!  emmadoggy   Oct-27-07 09:10 PM   #99 
  - While the fabric may not change, the styles do.  Miss Chybil   Oct-27-07 10:42 PM   #115 
  - It's always been about the invention of the cotton gin!  axollot   Oct-27-07 11:05 PM   #117 
  - Can Hemp Impeach the bushies?  sellitman   Oct-27-07 11:11 PM   #119 
  - It's also good for the ozone layer --- !!! We can't have rayon either -- !!!!  defendandprotect   Oct-27-07 11:14 PM   #121 
  - Amazing!  cat_girl25   Oct-27-07 11:22 PM   #123 
  - If you like handspun antique hemp nightgowns you'll love  tuckessee   Oct-28-07 12:26 AM   #131 
  - That is amazing? I wonder if the cotton industry had anything to do  whistle   Oct-28-07 07:08 AM   #135 
  - It wasn't the cotton industry.  troubleinwinter   Oct-28-07 08:44 AM   #143 
     - Very interesting. I hadn't heard that important bit of history. This should be undone.  Nothing Without Hope   Oct-28-07 08:09 PM   #178 
  - that is beautiful!  JitterbugPerfume   Oct-28-07 08:57 AM   #146 
  - It's one of the many wonderful things 'they' have stolen from us....  NotGivingUp   Oct-28-07 09:23 AM   #149 
  - I've worn hemp jeans for years..they "breathe"..not hot in summer  Swagman   Oct-28-07 09:42 AM   #152 
  - I nominate this my favorite Post of the Year  Caretha   Oct-28-07 10:37 AM   #158 
  - I'll second that!  stubtoe   Oct-28-07 11:53 AM   #163 
  - Hey debbierlus, There Is Another Reason As Well...  WillyT   Oct-28-07 11:42 AM   #162 
  - In fact, the cultivars that are used for hemp don't make much if any THC  Nothing Without Hope   Oct-28-07 12:25 PM   #166 
  - It was once illegal not to grow hemp  IDemo   Oct-28-07 12:30 PM   #168 
  - I'm quite awe struck.  Gregorian   Oct-28-07 12:49 PM   #172 
  - Thanks for adding the pics  Yael   Oct-28-07 01:27 PM   #174 
  - I'm wearing a hemp baseball hat right now.  Scout1071   Oct-28-07 09:55 PM   #180 
  - The workmanship blows me away, The hours put into this amazing article of  OnceUponTimeOnTheNet   Oct-28-07 10:32 PM   #182 
  - There was no tv, radio, phone..or even electricity..long winter days  SoCalDem   Oct-29-07 02:50 AM   #185 
  - Beautiful stuff & EXCELLENT post!  Ghost in the Machine   Oct-29-07 12:32 AM   #183 
  - .  Hissyspit   Oct-29-07 01:06 AM   #184 
  - 100,000 Views?  A-Schwarzenegger   Oct-29-07 04:42 AM   #186 
  - This post is on page one of today n/t  kdsusa   Oct-29-07 06:36 AM   #187 
  - ttt  Blue_Tires   Oct-29-07 09:00 AM   #189 
  - This thread is certainly getting a lot of attention.  lpbk2713   Oct-29-07 11:35 AM   #190 

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