| 202. Do you write things that are deliberately rude? |
|
I'm just wondering, because you don't ever seem to have any
facts to back up *YOUR* side of the argument, yet you mock
others who do bring facts and supported speculation to the
argument.
Tesha
|
| -Has the United States reached the point where break up |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 12:31 PM |
#0 |
 -
Divide and conquer? |
redqueen |
Oct-26-07 12:35 PM |
#1 |
 -
For any student of how civil wars develop |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 12:38 PM |
# |
| -
I know things are potentially that bad. |
redqueen |
Oct-26-07 12:40 PM |
#8 |
 -
If different regions became successor states |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 12:42 PM |
#15 |
| -
That's just silly. |
redqueen |
Oct-26-07 12:43 PM |
#18 |
| -
As a STUDENT of history |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 12:45 PM |
#22 |
| -
Let's assume for a moment that... |
LanternWaste |
Oct-26-07 01:26 PM |
#61 |
| -
That 281 million flags... |
redqueen |
Oct-26-07 02:21 PM |
#96 |
| -
Yeah-- I wasn't thinking of that word... |
LanternWaste |
Oct-26-07 03:47 PM |
#111 |
| -
Boiled sugar becomes syrup. |
lonestarnot |
Oct-27-07 08:22 AM |
#182 |
| -
Think Byzantium in the 6th and 7th Centuries |
depakid |
Oct-26-07 01:58 PM |
#87 |
| -
I think our national identidy is much stronger |
Yupster |
Oct-26-07 07:54 PM |
#167 |
| -
Curiously, the same time period you mention, |
SimpleTrend |
Oct-27-07 03:12 PM |
#198 |
| -
michigan wouldn't have to worry about "crazy californians"?? meaning WHAT, exactly? |
niyad |
Oct-26-07 01:03 PM |
#41 |
| -
Look at the stereotypes perpetuated |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 01:04 PM |
#42 |
| -
nice try--YOU are the one who started this discusssion, YOU TELL ME what you think is going |
niyad |
Oct-26-07 01:12 PM |
#49 |
| -
Well my thesis is that this country is no longer a country |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 01:15 PM |
#51 |
| -
you know, capitalizing HISTORIANS and the other words does not make or prove |
niyad |
Oct-26-07 01:27 PM |
#62 |
| -
Go to GD and find posts by a fellow michiganer I am guessing |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 01:30 PM |
#66 |
| -
I see, you can't answer the questions posed on your own. and you didn't |
niyad |
Oct-26-07 01:38 PM |
#75 |
| -
You're opinion that is fine |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 01:40 PM |
#77 |
| -
Go to GD and find posts by a fellow michiganer I am guessing |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 01:30 PM |
#67 |
| -
I didn't advocate secession: I HUMBLY said I didn't understand. |
Tyler Durden |
Oct-26-07 01:41 PM |
#79 |
| -
And it is not only you that does not understand people |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 01:45 PM |
#83 |
| -
I don't think the fault lines of disunion |
leftofthedial |
Oct-26-07 12:56 PM |
#35 |
| -
THey are economic and even ethnic at this point |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 12:58 PM |
#38 |
| -
Mexico has a far greater chance of breaking up than we do. So does Canada. |
John Q. Citizen |
Oct-26-07 02:00 PM |
#88 |
| -
I truly fear those divisions are actually increasing |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 02:06 PM |
#91 |
| -
Mexico has far more division. Look at the indigenous areas like Oaxaca, |
John Q. Citizen |
Oct-26-07 02:20 PM |
#95 |
| -
Yes, they do |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 02:23 PM |
#97 |
| -
But Deep Apalachia isn't talking about succesion. The inner city looks like another |
John Q. Citizen |
Oct-26-07 02:33 PM |
#99 |
| -
I see the signs of a civil war in this country |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 03:52 PM |
#112 |
| -
At this point, I don't think so -- there's too much unanimity regarding President Sluggo |
melody |
Oct-27-07 02:56 AM |
#178 |
| -
How is the rest of the country dragging |
sadiesworld |
Oct-27-07 09:38 AM |
#185 |
| -
That was overstatement to make a point ... obviously I only mean very red states |
melody |
Oct-27-07 01:23 PM |
#187 |
| -
Deep Appalachia .. as in US southern Appalachia ... has always been more liberal |
melody |
Oct-26-07 03:59 PM |
#120 |
| -
Here in Vermont, the idea is taken quite seriously |
Oak2004 |
Oct-27-07 02:08 PM |
#193 |
| -
Point by point, how you are wrong. |
Bucky |
Oct-26-07 01:17 PM |
#52 |
| -
it is not only regional political differences, or cultural wars, |
antifaschits |
Oct-26-07 01:52 PM |
#86 |
| -
As I said down thread |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 02:02 PM |
#89 |
| -
Corporatists would probably hate the break up |
in search of sanity |
Oct-26-07 12:42 PM |
#14 |
| -
It goes against the trend of a single norht american guv'ment |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 12:43 PM |
#17 |
| -
No they don't. |
redqueen |
Oct-26-07 12:44 PM |
#19 |
| -
They'd have greater results out of regions with which they are in concert though |
melody |
Oct-27-07 01:27 PM |
#189 |
| -
I think it won't end in secession but rather simply dissolving the central government. |
Selatius |
Oct-26-07 12:37 PM |
#2 |
| -
Apples and oranges, though. |
SteppingRazor |
Oct-26-07 12:39 PM |
#6 |
| -
True, but any break-up would likely be due to economic factors. The Civil War is an example. |
Selatius |
Oct-26-07 12:49 PM |
#30 |
| -
I'm thinking the Soviet scenario is mostly possible |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 12:39 PM |
#7 |
| -
I agree |
martymar64 |
Oct-26-07 05:53 PM |
#153 |
| -
And there will come a time- perhaps not too long from now |
depakid |
Oct-26-07 02:12 PM |
#93 |
| -
This is already happening. |
Tesha |
Oct-26-07 05:00 PM |
#143 |
| -
I used to live in Massachusetts coincidentally, Salem to be exact. |
Selatius |
Oct-26-07 06:00 PM |
#155 |
| -
I've spoken here often in favor of that breakup and I've often cited that book... |
Tesha |
Oct-26-07 12:37 PM |
#3 |
| -
Oh that book has been used |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 12:40 PM |
#9 |
| -
I don't see how you get to a peaceful breakup. |
SteppingRazor |
Oct-26-07 12:37 PM |
#4 |
| -
That is where the shooting comes |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 12:41 PM |
#11 |
| -
Even leaving aside natural resources, what about moneymaking economies? |
SteppingRazor |
Oct-26-07 12:44 PM |
#21 |
| -
Do we have an identification as AMERICANS? |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 12:49 PM |
#29 |
| -
I don't think Empty would want Vegas. |
Xithras |
Oct-26-07 01:04 PM |
#43 |
| -
Washington DC should just separate. that would solve a lot of problems. |
Xenotime |
Oct-26-07 12:38 PM |
#5 |
| -
I favor a break up. |
Sentinel Chicken |
Oct-26-07 12:40 PM |
#10 |
| -
Problem with that is the Fundies |
NeedleCast |
Oct-26-07 01:13 PM |
#50 |
| -
Religion is dying out. There are revivals, but each revival is smaller than the last. |
John Q. Citizen |
Oct-26-07 02:06 PM |
#90 |
| -
Lol, yeah keep telling yourself that |
spoony |
Oct-27-07 08:15 AM |
#180 |
| -
I agree. |
realpolitik |
Oct-26-07 12:42 PM |
#12 |
| -
of course not |
madokie |
Oct-26-07 12:42 PM |
#13 |
| -
I fear it goes beyond the Bush Crime family |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 12:46 PM |
#24 |
| -
yeah i dont see it |
fenriswolf |
Oct-26-07 12:43 PM |
#16 |
| -
I'm all for it. It would be nice to live in a "2nd rate" power. |
Tierra_y_Libertad |
Oct-26-07 12:44 PM |
#20 |
| -
A looser federation might work. Breaking up the mega states world wide seems to be trend. |
terisan |
Oct-26-07 12:46 PM |
#23 |
| -
The water wars will be a driving force of this |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 12:47 PM |
#27 |
| -
Yes the western water wars will be big; Georgia can get by on half its annual non-drought rainfall |
terisan |
Oct-26-07 01:19 PM |
#57 |
| -
Cadillac Desert- rec. reading n/t |
kineneb |
Oct-26-07 02:15 PM |
#94 |
| -
Critical readying actually |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 04:17 PM |
#130 |
| -
Maybe, but leave Canada out of it...nt |
SidDithers |
Oct-26-07 12:47 PM |
#25 |
| -
That book is an example |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 12:50 PM |
#31 |
| -
Gotcha... |
SidDithers |
Oct-26-07 12:55 PM |
#33 |
| -
If it comes to it |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 12:56 PM |
#36 |
| -
Why would Canada even come "into it"? n/t |
melody |
Oct-26-07 01:18 PM |
#54 |
| -
Well, for one, because New England has far more in common with the Atlantic Provinces... |
Tesha |
Oct-26-07 05:07 PM |
#144 |
| -
All the US/Canadian border states have more in common with each other than their other regions |
melody |
Oct-27-07 03:13 PM |
#199 |
| -
To accept seceding or orphan states into the Canada as provinces? |
amandabeech |
Oct-27-07 01:56 PM |
#191 |
| -
I don't think Canada CAN stay out of it. |
Xithras |
Oct-26-07 01:24 PM |
#59 |
| -
I think I would move the northern edge of "Ecotopia" |
Blue_In_AK |
Oct-26-07 12:47 PM |
#26 |
| -
I'd hope we wouldn't break things down ethnically |
shadowknows69 |
Oct-26-07 12:49 PM |
#28 |
| -
Not unless we can afford to pay the 42 percent of us |
Clark2008 |
Oct-26-07 12:53 PM |
#32 |
| -
Well, ethnic cleansing is happening in Iraq, |
amandabeech |
Oct-27-07 01:58 PM |
#192 |
| -
absolutely yes -- it will happen anyway |
villager |
Oct-26-07 12:55 PM |
#34 |
| -
I think closer than mid century |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 12:59 PM |
#40 |
| -
or as Michael Ventura sets it out in his column: |
villager |
Oct-26-07 01:32 PM |
#68 |
| -
I'll have to read that later, thanks |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 01:34 PM |
#71 |
| -
Ecotopia, ironically, would have the largest stockpile of nuclear weapons in the world-- |
paxmusa |
Oct-26-07 12:56 PM |
#37 |
| -
Think DC would let you KEEP them? |
Tyler Durden |
Oct-26-07 01:44 PM |
#80 |
| -
Ummm, no, so don't get your panties in a wad. |
paxmusa |
Oct-26-07 06:53 PM |
#163 |
| -
been a bad week. |
Tyler Durden |
Oct-26-07 10:25 PM |
#170 |
| -
Seems like it's been a stressful week for a lot of people here on DU-- |
paxmusa |
Oct-27-07 01:23 AM |
#177 |
| -
The Mouse that Roared! |
Mme. Defarge |
Oct-26-07 06:29 PM |
#159 |
| -
Yes! I forgot about "The Mouse"! |
paxmusa |
Oct-26-07 06:56 PM |
#164 |
| -
Ecotopia, Ecotopia Uber Alles! |
Oregonian |
Oct-26-07 12:58 PM |
#39 |
| -
Why stop at 9? |
NoMoreMyths |
Oct-26-07 01:06 PM |
#44 |
| -
How do you think the nascent North American Union |
CJCRANE |
Oct-26-07 01:07 PM |
#45 |
| -
The best laid plans of mice and men |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 01:09 PM |
#47 |
| -
No |
NeedleCast |
Oct-26-07 01:08 PM |
#46 |
| -
Expecting Americans to get involved in civil war now is delusional. Most don't even vote |
Bucky |
Oct-26-07 01:12 PM |
#48 |
| -
Three to five economies |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 01:17 PM |
#53 |
| -
But who is pissed off at who? For every post here trying to denegrate |
John Q. Citizen |
Oct-26-07 02:26 PM |
#98 |
| -
While these are valid principles, the specifics in the US don't match up to them |
Bucky |
Oct-26-07 02:53 PM |
#102 |
| -
I'll point out neither could people in 1850 |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 04:19 PM |
#132 |
| -
With enough time |
midlife_mo_Jo |
Oct-27-07 08:17 AM |
#181 |
| -
The majority never participates in border conflicts |
melody |
Oct-26-07 01:20 PM |
#58 |
| -
Correct and thank you for getting it |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 01:26 PM |
#60 |
| -
What is a "cold civil war"? And if it's "by design", who designed it? |
Bucky |
Oct-26-07 03:00 PM |
#107 |
| -
Cold civil wars are the |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 03:54 PM |
#114 |
| -
Perhaps you misunderstood what I meant by "Can you suggest any likely scenarios?" |
Bucky |
Oct-26-07 04:05 PM |
#125 |
| -
Yes, here are some signs of this |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 04:13 PM |
#128 |
| -
I live in what used to be a red town -- the divide is real |
melody |
Oct-26-07 03:57 PM |
#118 |
| -
Who designed it? |
realpolitik |
Oct-26-07 04:10 PM |
#126 |
| -
Nope, much older than that -- imho, this goes back easily fifty years |
melody |
Oct-27-07 02:58 AM |
#179 |
| -
Nothing new--The regions have been different from the beginning |
SujiwanKenobee |
Oct-26-07 01:18 PM |
#55 |
| -
Garreau refers to NOLA as an "aberration" |
KamaAina |
Oct-26-07 01:18 PM |
#56 |
| -
California will break away in the relative near future |
melody |
Oct-26-07 01:27 PM |
#63 |
| -
Don't know bout the conservative part |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 01:29 PM |
#65 |
| -
The supposed "conservatives" are vastly outnumbered |
melody |
Oct-26-07 01:38 PM |
#74 |
| -
Would work for me, |
Q3JR4 |
Oct-26-07 01:37 PM |
#73 |
| -
That would last right about until Colorado turned off the water. |
tjwash |
Oct-26-07 01:39 PM |
#76 |
| -
And that is why Colorado is included in many of the maps |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 01:41 PM |
#78 |
| -
Colorado needs our money more than we need their water |
melody |
Oct-26-07 01:49 PM |
#85 |
| -
Can Alaska join you? |
Blue_In_AK |
Oct-26-07 02:08 PM |
#92 |
| -
I'm with you on that! |
martymar64 |
Oct-26-07 06:19 PM |
#158 |
| -
I'm a great believer in Cascadia. I think we could do great good as a sovereign nation n/t |
melody |
Oct-27-07 01:25 PM |
#188 |
| -
If there's a secession, I want to go where there's no freakin' fundies, no anti-global warming |
in_cog_ni_to |
Oct-26-07 01:29 PM |
#64 |
| -
I always find this to be the "liberal" equivalent of right wing rapture wishful thinking... |
mitchum |
Oct-26-07 01:34 PM |
#69 |
| -
I think it just makes some DU'ers feel smarter posting sentiments like this. Meanwhile, |
cryingshame |
Oct-26-07 01:34 PM |
#70 |
| -
The book I cited is based on sociological research |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 01:35 PM |
#72 |
| -
The 'book' you quoted was Wikipedia. |
renie408 |
Oct-26-07 02:58 PM |
#106 |
| -
that was the FIRST reference that came up |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 03:55 PM |
#115 |
| -
Calling people "rubes" and "idiots" instead of presenting counter arguments is smart? |
melody |
Oct-26-07 01:45 PM |
#82 |
| -
Best post of the thread. Thank you. nt |
piedmont |
Oct-26-07 04:14 PM |
#129 |
| -
I think we're at a point where every 21 year old should be.... |
Zookeeper |
Oct-26-07 01:44 PM |
#81 |
| -
And that my friend is another marker of nations that |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 01:46 PM |
#84 |
| -
I like you as a friend, please don't be mad. n/t |
hiphopnation23 |
Oct-26-07 02:36 PM |
#100 |
| -
Breaking the country up sounds better than the North American Union. nt |
TheGoldenRule |
Oct-26-07 02:36 PM |
#101 |
| -
Perhaps, but if you look at the history of humans on the earth, grouping have |
John Q. Citizen |
Oct-26-07 02:57 PM |
#105 |
| -
The North American Union is evil. It will kill the Constitution & our way of life. NO thanks. nt |
TheGoldenRule |
Oct-26-07 03:45 PM |
#110 |
| -
So will the break up of the country |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 03:57 PM |
#117 |
| -
Many states have stronger constitutions than the Federal one |
Oak2004 |
Oct-27-07 03:34 PM |
#200 |
| -
I'm not arguing in favor of the NAU. I'm only pointing out that human groupings tend to |
John Q. Citizen |
Oct-26-07 04:23 PM |
#134 |
| -
Both trends go simultaneoously in different geographic locations |
martymar64 |
Oct-26-07 06:32 PM |
#160 |
| -
i'm not saying that decentraization never occurs. I'm saying that the overall |
John Q. Citizen |
Oct-26-07 07:33 PM |
#166 |
| -
Technology has facilitated centralization but . . . |
martymar64 |
Oct-26-07 08:05 PM |
#168 |
| -
Very true as to the environmental limits on centralization, as well as the technological |
John Q. Citizen |
Oct-26-07 08:22 PM |
#169 |
| -
At this point I am thinking of the Diamond's book |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-27-07 12:14 AM |
#173 |
| -
There's some classic examples, the Mayan in the Yucatan, the Cliff Dwellers |
John Q. Citizen |
Oct-27-07 10:51 AM |
#186 |
| -
Is this an article from The Onion? n/t |
renie408 |
Oct-26-07 02:54 PM |
#103 |
| -
No, it is actually a very serious question |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 03:58 PM |
#119 |
| -
Since when? 1981? Does anybody REALLY think that the US is going to |
renie408 |
Oct-26-07 04:01 PM |
#121 |
| -
That was the FIRST of a series of books that |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 04:23 PM |
#135 |
| -
I will simply answer your question. No, I don't think the US is on the verge |
renie408 |
Oct-26-07 05:32 PM |
#147 |
| -
First used the book as an example of what is out there |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 06:36 PM |
#162 |
| -
To me, the question is more like "is it inevitable", regardless of if it should or not. |
Zhade |
Oct-26-07 02:55 PM |
#104 |
| -
I see secession a bit differently |
End Of The Road |
Oct-26-07 03:15 PM |
#108 |
| -
No way is West Virginia part of Dixie. |
tabasco |
Oct-26-07 03:20 PM |
#109 |
| -
Shit. I didn't even check that. We aren't taking Alabama, either. n/t |
renie408 |
Oct-26-07 03:54 PM |
#113 |
| -
I live in WV. |
tabasco |
Oct-26-07 04:02 PM |
#122 |
| -
ROFL!! I live in Dixie. We don't mind. n/t |
renie408 |
Oct-26-07 04:03 PM |
#123 |
| -
On my property is a breastwork, |
tabasco |
Oct-26-07 04:22 PM |
#133 |
| -
NO! |
Breeze54 |
Oct-26-07 03:55 PM |
#116 |
| -
This book was written in 1981 when... |
TreasonousBastard |
Oct-26-07 04:03 PM |
#124 |
| -
Hell no. |
piedmont |
Oct-26-07 04:11 PM |
#127 |
| -
No n/t |
tammywammy |
Oct-26-07 04:18 PM |
#131 |
| -
It will happen eventually |
Marrah_G |
Oct-26-07 04:28 PM |
#136 |
| -
that break-up would never work |
hfojvt |
Oct-26-07 04:29 PM |
#137 |
| -
That was an early study |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 04:33 PM |
#139 |
| -
Looks like it's time to |
CrispyQGirl |
Oct-26-07 04:32 PM |
#138 |
| -
My man, Bob Seger!!! |
amandabeech |
Oct-27-07 02:16 PM |
#194 |
| -
All we need is another attack |
yasmina27 |
Oct-26-07 04:36 PM |
#140 |
| -
Them are temporary |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 04:52 PM |
#141 |
| -
No--this isn't the 1860's and the national govt. can more than keep us in line |
book_worm |
Oct-26-07 04:55 PM |
#142 |
| -
After having looked at that map.... |
Zookeeper |
Oct-26-07 05:27 PM |
#145 |
| -
He did |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 05:31 PM |
#146 |
| -
Well. He's wrong. |
Zookeeper |
Oct-26-07 05:35 PM |
#149 |
| -
You know what concerns me is that he looked at trends back then |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 05:39 PM |
#151 |
| -
you are an immigrant to the United States... |
NorthernSpy |
Oct-26-07 05:35 PM |
#148 |
| -
and a HISTORIAN by training |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 05:36 PM |
#150 |
| -
it's a reasonable question... |
NorthernSpy |
Oct-27-07 02:48 PM |
#196 |
| -
How long have you lived here and where did you receive your training? |
amandabeech |
Oct-27-07 03:00 PM |
#197 |
| -
We need a new constitution, |
agincourt |
Oct-26-07 05:46 PM |
#152 |
| -
Correct, my brother and I have been talking about it |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 05:55 PM |
#154 |
| -
Isn't that what amendments are for? |
walldude |
Oct-26-07 10:40 PM |
#171 |
| -
yes the ammendments are suposed to be for |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-27-07 12:16 AM |
#174 |
| -
It may be the only way to save the world. I for one am sick of American hegemony. |
MasonJar |
Oct-26-07 06:02 PM |
#156 |
| -
You fail to consider |
midlife_mo_Jo |
Oct-26-07 06:07 PM |
#157 |
| -
I pointed some of the trends |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 06:32 PM |
#161 |
| -
Oh, fer gosh sakes, NO!!! The only "very hot" war happening is among the,... |
sicksicksick_N_tired |
Oct-26-07 07:06 PM |
#165 |
| -
Umm - here in the supposed "Bible Belt" |
sleebarker |
Oct-26-07 11:03 PM |
#172 |
| -
I am talking about the ideological divide actually |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-27-07 12:17 AM |
#175 |
| -
Quick answer: No. |
Truthiness Inspector |
Oct-27-07 12:34 AM |
#176 |
| -
This would never happen |
Politicub |
Oct-27-07 08:26 AM |
#183 |
| -
more secular apocalyptism from a secular apocalyptist |
cali |
Oct-27-07 08:39 AM |
#184 |
| -
No, she has a series of books to back her up. |
renie408 |
Oct-27-07 01:29 PM |
#190 |
| -
Do you write things that are deliberately rude? |
Tesha |
Oct-27-07 05:48 PM |
#202 |
| -
No, I don't think it will break up this way |
mvd |
Oct-27-07 02:41 PM |
#195 |
| -
On nations and states... |
warren pease |
Oct-27-07 04:58 PM |
#201 |
| -
In order to trigger a Soviet style collapse, three things need to happen |
Aya Reiko |
Oct-27-07 06:11 PM |
#203 |
Printer-friendly format
Email this thread to a friend
Bookmark this thread
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore