| 121. Since when? 1981? Does anybody REALLY think that the US is going to |
|
break up into nine separate regions?? And HELLO!!! Everybody that lived in the northeast when this book was written now lives here.
I am sorry. I find this hard to take seriously. Why is it that everybody thinks that RIGHT NOW is the worst thing this country has been through? What about the Civil War? The Depression? WWII? Vietnam? Come on...this country has gone through hard times and will again. NOW isn't the worst. It's just bad.
|
| -Has the United States reached the point where break up |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 12:31 PM |
#0 |
 -
Divide and conquer? |
redqueen |
Oct-26-07 12:35 PM |
#1 |
 -
For any student of how civil wars develop |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 12:38 PM |
# |
| -
I know things are potentially that bad. |
redqueen |
Oct-26-07 12:40 PM |
#8 |
 -
If different regions became successor states |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 12:42 PM |
#15 |
| -
That's just silly. |
redqueen |
Oct-26-07 12:43 PM |
#18 |
| -
As a STUDENT of history |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 12:45 PM |
#22 |
| -
Let's assume for a moment that... |
LanternWaste |
Oct-26-07 01:26 PM |
#61 |
| -
That 281 million flags... |
redqueen |
Oct-26-07 02:21 PM |
#96 |
| -
Yeah-- I wasn't thinking of that word... |
LanternWaste |
Oct-26-07 03:47 PM |
#111 |
| -
Boiled sugar becomes syrup. |
lonestarnot |
Oct-27-07 08:22 AM |
#182 |
| -
Think Byzantium in the 6th and 7th Centuries |
depakid |
Oct-26-07 01:58 PM |
#87 |
| -
I think our national identidy is much stronger |
Yupster |
Oct-26-07 07:54 PM |
#167 |
| -
Curiously, the same time period you mention, |
SimpleTrend |
Oct-27-07 03:12 PM |
#198 |
| -
michigan wouldn't have to worry about "crazy californians"?? meaning WHAT, exactly? |
niyad |
Oct-26-07 01:03 PM |
#41 |
| -
Look at the stereotypes perpetuated |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 01:04 PM |
#42 |
| -
nice try--YOU are the one who started this discusssion, YOU TELL ME what you think is going |
niyad |
Oct-26-07 01:12 PM |
#49 |
| -
Well my thesis is that this country is no longer a country |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 01:15 PM |
#51 |
| -
you know, capitalizing HISTORIANS and the other words does not make or prove |
niyad |
Oct-26-07 01:27 PM |
#62 |
| -
Go to GD and find posts by a fellow michiganer I am guessing |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 01:30 PM |
#66 |
| -
I see, you can't answer the questions posed on your own. and you didn't |
niyad |
Oct-26-07 01:38 PM |
#75 |
| -
You're opinion that is fine |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 01:40 PM |
#77 |
| -
Go to GD and find posts by a fellow michiganer I am guessing |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 01:30 PM |
#67 |
| -
I didn't advocate secession: I HUMBLY said I didn't understand. |
Tyler Durden |
Oct-26-07 01:41 PM |
#79 |
| -
And it is not only you that does not understand people |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 01:45 PM |
#83 |
| -
I don't think the fault lines of disunion |
leftofthedial |
Oct-26-07 12:56 PM |
#35 |
| -
THey are economic and even ethnic at this point |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 12:58 PM |
#38 |
| -
Mexico has a far greater chance of breaking up than we do. So does Canada. |
John Q. Citizen |
Oct-26-07 02:00 PM |
#88 |
| -
I truly fear those divisions are actually increasing |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 02:06 PM |
#91 |
| -
Mexico has far more division. Look at the indigenous areas like Oaxaca, |
John Q. Citizen |
Oct-26-07 02:20 PM |
#95 |
| -
Yes, they do |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 02:23 PM |
#97 |
| -
But Deep Apalachia isn't talking about succesion. The inner city looks like another |
John Q. Citizen |
Oct-26-07 02:33 PM |
#99 |
| -
I see the signs of a civil war in this country |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 03:52 PM |
#112 |
| -
At this point, I don't think so -- there's too much unanimity regarding President Sluggo |
melody |
Oct-27-07 02:56 AM |
#178 |
| -
How is the rest of the country dragging |
sadiesworld |
Oct-27-07 09:38 AM |
#185 |
| -
That was overstatement to make a point ... obviously I only mean very red states |
melody |
Oct-27-07 01:23 PM |
#187 |
| -
Deep Appalachia .. as in US southern Appalachia ... has always been more liberal |
melody |
Oct-26-07 03:59 PM |
#120 |
| -
Here in Vermont, the idea is taken quite seriously |
Oak2004 |
Oct-27-07 02:08 PM |
#193 |
| -
Point by point, how you are wrong. |
Bucky |
Oct-26-07 01:17 PM |
#52 |
| -
it is not only regional political differences, or cultural wars, |
antifaschits |
Oct-26-07 01:52 PM |
#86 |
| -
As I said down thread |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 02:02 PM |
#89 |
| -
Corporatists would probably hate the break up |
in search of sanity |
Oct-26-07 12:42 PM |
#14 |
| -
It goes against the trend of a single norht american guv'ment |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 12:43 PM |
#17 |
| -
No they don't. |
redqueen |
Oct-26-07 12:44 PM |
#19 |
| -
They'd have greater results out of regions with which they are in concert though |
melody |
Oct-27-07 01:27 PM |
#189 |
| -
I think it won't end in secession but rather simply dissolving the central government. |
Selatius |
Oct-26-07 12:37 PM |
#2 |
| -
Apples and oranges, though. |
SteppingRazor |
Oct-26-07 12:39 PM |
#6 |
| -
True, but any break-up would likely be due to economic factors. The Civil War is an example. |
Selatius |
Oct-26-07 12:49 PM |
#30 |
| -
I'm thinking the Soviet scenario is mostly possible |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 12:39 PM |
#7 |
| -
I agree |
martymar64 |
Oct-26-07 05:53 PM |
#153 |
| -
And there will come a time- perhaps not too long from now |
depakid |
Oct-26-07 02:12 PM |
#93 |
| -
This is already happening. |
Tesha |
Oct-26-07 05:00 PM |
#143 |
| -
I used to live in Massachusetts coincidentally, Salem to be exact. |
Selatius |
Oct-26-07 06:00 PM |
#155 |
| -
I've spoken here often in favor of that breakup and I've often cited that book... |
Tesha |
Oct-26-07 12:37 PM |
#3 |
| -
Oh that book has been used |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 12:40 PM |
#9 |
| -
I don't see how you get to a peaceful breakup. |
SteppingRazor |
Oct-26-07 12:37 PM |
#4 |
| -
That is where the shooting comes |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 12:41 PM |
#11 |
| -
Even leaving aside natural resources, what about moneymaking economies? |
SteppingRazor |
Oct-26-07 12:44 PM |
#21 |
| -
Do we have an identification as AMERICANS? |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 12:49 PM |
#29 |
| -
I don't think Empty would want Vegas. |
Xithras |
Oct-26-07 01:04 PM |
#43 |
| -
Washington DC should just separate. that would solve a lot of problems. |
Xenotime |
Oct-26-07 12:38 PM |
#5 |
| -
I favor a break up. |
Sentinel Chicken |
Oct-26-07 12:40 PM |
#10 |
| -
Problem with that is the Fundies |
NeedleCast |
Oct-26-07 01:13 PM |
#50 |
| -
Religion is dying out. There are revivals, but each revival is smaller than the last. |
John Q. Citizen |
Oct-26-07 02:06 PM |
#90 |
| -
Lol, yeah keep telling yourself that |
spoony |
Oct-27-07 08:15 AM |
#180 |
| -
I agree. |
realpolitik |
Oct-26-07 12:42 PM |
#12 |
| -
of course not |
madokie |
Oct-26-07 12:42 PM |
#13 |
| -
I fear it goes beyond the Bush Crime family |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 12:46 PM |
#24 |
| -
yeah i dont see it |
fenriswolf |
Oct-26-07 12:43 PM |
#16 |
| -
I'm all for it. It would be nice to live in a "2nd rate" power. |
Tierra_y_Libertad |
Oct-26-07 12:44 PM |
#20 |
| -
A looser federation might work. Breaking up the mega states world wide seems to be trend. |
terisan |
Oct-26-07 12:46 PM |
#23 |
| -
The water wars will be a driving force of this |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 12:47 PM |
#27 |
| -
Yes the western water wars will be big; Georgia can get by on half its annual non-drought rainfall |
terisan |
Oct-26-07 01:19 PM |
#57 |
| -
Cadillac Desert- rec. reading n/t |
kineneb |
Oct-26-07 02:15 PM |
#94 |
| -
Critical readying actually |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 04:17 PM |
#130 |
| -
Maybe, but leave Canada out of it...nt |
SidDithers |
Oct-26-07 12:47 PM |
#25 |
| -
That book is an example |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 12:50 PM |
#31 |
| -
Gotcha... |
SidDithers |
Oct-26-07 12:55 PM |
#33 |
| -
If it comes to it |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 12:56 PM |
#36 |
| -
Why would Canada even come "into it"? n/t |
melody |
Oct-26-07 01:18 PM |
#54 |
| -
Well, for one, because New England has far more in common with the Atlantic Provinces... |
Tesha |
Oct-26-07 05:07 PM |
#144 |
| -
All the US/Canadian border states have more in common with each other than their other regions |
melody |
Oct-27-07 03:13 PM |
#199 |
| -
To accept seceding or orphan states into the Canada as provinces? |
amandabeech |
Oct-27-07 01:56 PM |
#191 |
| -
I don't think Canada CAN stay out of it. |
Xithras |
Oct-26-07 01:24 PM |
#59 |
| -
I think I would move the northern edge of "Ecotopia" |
Blue_In_AK |
Oct-26-07 12:47 PM |
#26 |
| -
I'd hope we wouldn't break things down ethnically |
shadowknows69 |
Oct-26-07 12:49 PM |
#28 |
| -
Not unless we can afford to pay the 42 percent of us |
Clark2008 |
Oct-26-07 12:53 PM |
#32 |
| -
Well, ethnic cleansing is happening in Iraq, |
amandabeech |
Oct-27-07 01:58 PM |
#192 |
| -
absolutely yes -- it will happen anyway |
villager |
Oct-26-07 12:55 PM |
#34 |
| -
I think closer than mid century |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 12:59 PM |
#40 |
| -
or as Michael Ventura sets it out in his column: |
villager |
Oct-26-07 01:32 PM |
#68 |
| -
I'll have to read that later, thanks |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 01:34 PM |
#71 |
| -
Ecotopia, ironically, would have the largest stockpile of nuclear weapons in the world-- |
paxmusa |
Oct-26-07 12:56 PM |
#37 |
| -
Think DC would let you KEEP them? |
Tyler Durden |
Oct-26-07 01:44 PM |
#80 |
| -
Ummm, no, so don't get your panties in a wad. |
paxmusa |
Oct-26-07 06:53 PM |
#163 |
| -
been a bad week. |
Tyler Durden |
Oct-26-07 10:25 PM |
#170 |
| -
Seems like it's been a stressful week for a lot of people here on DU-- |
paxmusa |
Oct-27-07 01:23 AM |
#177 |
| -
The Mouse that Roared! |
Mme. Defarge |
Oct-26-07 06:29 PM |
#159 |
| -
Yes! I forgot about "The Mouse"! |
paxmusa |
Oct-26-07 06:56 PM |
#164 |
| -
Ecotopia, Ecotopia Uber Alles! |
Oregonian |
Oct-26-07 12:58 PM |
#39 |
| -
Why stop at 9? |
NoMoreMyths |
Oct-26-07 01:06 PM |
#44 |
| -
How do you think the nascent North American Union |
CJCRANE |
Oct-26-07 01:07 PM |
#45 |
| -
The best laid plans of mice and men |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 01:09 PM |
#47 |
| -
No |
NeedleCast |
Oct-26-07 01:08 PM |
#46 |
| -
Expecting Americans to get involved in civil war now is delusional. Most don't even vote |
Bucky |
Oct-26-07 01:12 PM |
#48 |
| -
Three to five economies |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 01:17 PM |
#53 |
| -
But who is pissed off at who? For every post here trying to denegrate |
John Q. Citizen |
Oct-26-07 02:26 PM |
#98 |
| -
While these are valid principles, the specifics in the US don't match up to them |
Bucky |
Oct-26-07 02:53 PM |
#102 |
| -
I'll point out neither could people in 1850 |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 04:19 PM |
#132 |
| -
With enough time |
midlife_mo_Jo |
Oct-27-07 08:17 AM |
#181 |
| -
The majority never participates in border conflicts |
melody |
Oct-26-07 01:20 PM |
#58 |
| -
Correct and thank you for getting it |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 01:26 PM |
#60 |
| -
What is a "cold civil war"? And if it's "by design", who designed it? |
Bucky |
Oct-26-07 03:00 PM |
#107 |
| -
Cold civil wars are the |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 03:54 PM |
#114 |
| -
Perhaps you misunderstood what I meant by "Can you suggest any likely scenarios?" |
Bucky |
Oct-26-07 04:05 PM |
#125 |
| -
Yes, here are some signs of this |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 04:13 PM |
#128 |
| -
I live in what used to be a red town -- the divide is real |
melody |
Oct-26-07 03:57 PM |
#118 |
| -
Who designed it? |
realpolitik |
Oct-26-07 04:10 PM |
#126 |
| -
Nope, much older than that -- imho, this goes back easily fifty years |
melody |
Oct-27-07 02:58 AM |
#179 |
| -
Nothing new--The regions have been different from the beginning |
SujiwanKenobee |
Oct-26-07 01:18 PM |
#55 |
| -
Garreau refers to NOLA as an "aberration" |
KamaAina |
Oct-26-07 01:18 PM |
#56 |
| -
California will break away in the relative near future |
melody |
Oct-26-07 01:27 PM |
#63 |
| -
Don't know bout the conservative part |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 01:29 PM |
#65 |
| -
The supposed "conservatives" are vastly outnumbered |
melody |
Oct-26-07 01:38 PM |
#74 |
| -
Would work for me, |
Q3JR4 |
Oct-26-07 01:37 PM |
#73 |
| -
That would last right about until Colorado turned off the water. |
tjwash |
Oct-26-07 01:39 PM |
#76 |
| -
And that is why Colorado is included in many of the maps |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 01:41 PM |
#78 |
| -
Colorado needs our money more than we need their water |
melody |
Oct-26-07 01:49 PM |
#85 |
| -
Can Alaska join you? |
Blue_In_AK |
Oct-26-07 02:08 PM |
#92 |
| -
I'm with you on that! |
martymar64 |
Oct-26-07 06:19 PM |
#158 |
| -
I'm a great believer in Cascadia. I think we could do great good as a sovereign nation n/t |
melody |
Oct-27-07 01:25 PM |
#188 |
| -
If there's a secession, I want to go where there's no freakin' fundies, no anti-global warming |
in_cog_ni_to |
Oct-26-07 01:29 PM |
#64 |
| -
I always find this to be the "liberal" equivalent of right wing rapture wishful thinking... |
mitchum |
Oct-26-07 01:34 PM |
#69 |
| -
I think it just makes some DU'ers feel smarter posting sentiments like this. Meanwhile, |
cryingshame |
Oct-26-07 01:34 PM |
#70 |
| -
The book I cited is based on sociological research |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 01:35 PM |
#72 |
| -
The 'book' you quoted was Wikipedia. |
renie408 |
Oct-26-07 02:58 PM |
#106 |
| -
that was the FIRST reference that came up |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 03:55 PM |
#115 |
| -
Calling people "rubes" and "idiots" instead of presenting counter arguments is smart? |
melody |
Oct-26-07 01:45 PM |
#82 |
| -
Best post of the thread. Thank you. nt |
piedmont |
Oct-26-07 04:14 PM |
#129 |
| -
I think we're at a point where every 21 year old should be.... |
Zookeeper |
Oct-26-07 01:44 PM |
#81 |
| -
And that my friend is another marker of nations that |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 01:46 PM |
#84 |
| -
I like you as a friend, please don't be mad. n/t |
hiphopnation23 |
Oct-26-07 02:36 PM |
#100 |
| -
Breaking the country up sounds better than the North American Union. nt |
TheGoldenRule |
Oct-26-07 02:36 PM |
#101 |
| -
Perhaps, but if you look at the history of humans on the earth, grouping have |
John Q. Citizen |
Oct-26-07 02:57 PM |
#105 |
| -
The North American Union is evil. It will kill the Constitution & our way of life. NO thanks. nt |
TheGoldenRule |
Oct-26-07 03:45 PM |
#110 |
| -
So will the break up of the country |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 03:57 PM |
#117 |
| -
Many states have stronger constitutions than the Federal one |
Oak2004 |
Oct-27-07 03:34 PM |
#200 |
| -
I'm not arguing in favor of the NAU. I'm only pointing out that human groupings tend to |
John Q. Citizen |
Oct-26-07 04:23 PM |
#134 |
| -
Both trends go simultaneoously in different geographic locations |
martymar64 |
Oct-26-07 06:32 PM |
#160 |
| -
i'm not saying that decentraization never occurs. I'm saying that the overall |
John Q. Citizen |
Oct-26-07 07:33 PM |
#166 |
| -
Technology has facilitated centralization but . . . |
martymar64 |
Oct-26-07 08:05 PM |
#168 |
| -
Very true as to the environmental limits on centralization, as well as the technological |
John Q. Citizen |
Oct-26-07 08:22 PM |
#169 |
| -
At this point I am thinking of the Diamond's book |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-27-07 12:14 AM |
#173 |
| -
There's some classic examples, the Mayan in the Yucatan, the Cliff Dwellers |
John Q. Citizen |
Oct-27-07 10:51 AM |
#186 |
| -
Is this an article from The Onion? n/t |
renie408 |
Oct-26-07 02:54 PM |
#103 |
| -
No, it is actually a very serious question |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 03:58 PM |
#119 |
| -
Since when? 1981? Does anybody REALLY think that the US is going to |
renie408 |
Oct-26-07 04:01 PM |
#121 |
| -
That was the FIRST of a series of books that |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 04:23 PM |
#135 |
| -
I will simply answer your question. No, I don't think the US is on the verge |
renie408 |
Oct-26-07 05:32 PM |
#147 |
| -
First used the book as an example of what is out there |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 06:36 PM |
#162 |
| -
To me, the question is more like "is it inevitable", regardless of if it should or not. |
Zhade |
Oct-26-07 02:55 PM |
#104 |
| -
I see secession a bit differently |
End Of The Road |
Oct-26-07 03:15 PM |
#108 |
| -
No way is West Virginia part of Dixie. |
tabasco |
Oct-26-07 03:20 PM |
#109 |
| -
Shit. I didn't even check that. We aren't taking Alabama, either. n/t |
renie408 |
Oct-26-07 03:54 PM |
#113 |
| -
I live in WV. |
tabasco |
Oct-26-07 04:02 PM |
#122 |
| -
ROFL!! I live in Dixie. We don't mind. n/t |
renie408 |
Oct-26-07 04:03 PM |
#123 |
| -
On my property is a breastwork, |
tabasco |
Oct-26-07 04:22 PM |
#133 |
| -
NO! |
Breeze54 |
Oct-26-07 03:55 PM |
#116 |
| -
This book was written in 1981 when... |
TreasonousBastard |
Oct-26-07 04:03 PM |
#124 |
| -
Hell no. |
piedmont |
Oct-26-07 04:11 PM |
#127 |
| -
No n/t |
tammywammy |
Oct-26-07 04:18 PM |
#131 |
| -
It will happen eventually |
Marrah_G |
Oct-26-07 04:28 PM |
#136 |
| -
that break-up would never work |
hfojvt |
Oct-26-07 04:29 PM |
#137 |
| -
That was an early study |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 04:33 PM |
#139 |
| -
Looks like it's time to |
CrispyQGirl |
Oct-26-07 04:32 PM |
#138 |
| -
My man, Bob Seger!!! |
amandabeech |
Oct-27-07 02:16 PM |
#194 |
| -
All we need is another attack |
yasmina27 |
Oct-26-07 04:36 PM |
#140 |
| -
Them are temporary |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 04:52 PM |
#141 |
| -
No--this isn't the 1860's and the national govt. can more than keep us in line |
book_worm |
Oct-26-07 04:55 PM |
#142 |
| -
After having looked at that map.... |
Zookeeper |
Oct-26-07 05:27 PM |
#145 |
| -
He did |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 05:31 PM |
#146 |
| -
Well. He's wrong. |
Zookeeper |
Oct-26-07 05:35 PM |
#149 |
| -
You know what concerns me is that he looked at trends back then |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 05:39 PM |
#151 |
| -
you are an immigrant to the United States... |
NorthernSpy |
Oct-26-07 05:35 PM |
#148 |
| -
and a HISTORIAN by training |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 05:36 PM |
#150 |
| -
it's a reasonable question... |
NorthernSpy |
Oct-27-07 02:48 PM |
#196 |
| -
How long have you lived here and where did you receive your training? |
amandabeech |
Oct-27-07 03:00 PM |
#197 |
| -
We need a new constitution, |
agincourt |
Oct-26-07 05:46 PM |
#152 |
| -
Correct, my brother and I have been talking about it |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 05:55 PM |
#154 |
| -
Isn't that what amendments are for? |
walldude |
Oct-26-07 10:40 PM |
#171 |
| -
yes the ammendments are suposed to be for |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-27-07 12:16 AM |
#174 |
| -
It may be the only way to save the world. I for one am sick of American hegemony. |
MasonJar |
Oct-26-07 06:02 PM |
#156 |
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You fail to consider |
midlife_mo_Jo |
Oct-26-07 06:07 PM |
#157 |
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I pointed some of the trends |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-26-07 06:32 PM |
#161 |
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Oh, fer gosh sakes, NO!!! The only "very hot" war happening is among the,... |
sicksicksick_N_tired |
Oct-26-07 07:06 PM |
#165 |
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Umm - here in the supposed "Bible Belt" |
sleebarker |
Oct-26-07 11:03 PM |
#172 |
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I am talking about the ideological divide actually |
nadinbrzezinski |
Oct-27-07 12:17 AM |
#175 |
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Quick answer: No. |
Truthiness Inspector |
Oct-27-07 12:34 AM |
#176 |
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This would never happen |
Politicub |
Oct-27-07 08:26 AM |
#183 |
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more secular apocalyptism from a secular apocalyptist |
cali |
Oct-27-07 08:39 AM |
#184 |
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No, she has a series of books to back her up. |
renie408 |
Oct-27-07 01:29 PM |
#190 |
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Do you write things that are deliberately rude? |
Tesha |
Oct-27-07 05:48 PM |
#202 |
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No, I don't think it will break up this way |
mvd |
Oct-27-07 02:41 PM |
#195 |
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On nations and states... |
warren pease |
Oct-27-07 04:58 PM |
#201 |
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In order to trigger a Soviet style collapse, three things need to happen |
Aya Reiko |
Oct-27-07 06:11 PM |
#203 |
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