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Reply #108: In their mind, ignoring the differences is keeping an open mind [View All]

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cuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #78
108. In their mind, ignoring the differences is keeping an open mind
but paying attention to both the similarities and the differences means that you're in denial
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  -Denial nadinbrzezinski  Oct-14-07 02:30 AM   #0 
  - No one will listen, nadin.. That is one inconvenient truth.  tom_paine   Oct-14-07 02:37 AM   #1 
  - I know  nadinbrzezinski   Oct-14-07 02:40 AM   #3 
  - Hmmmm....  physioex   Oct-14-07 02:38 AM   #2 
  - We have been trained well  nadinbrzezinski   Oct-14-07 02:40 AM   #4 
  - Denial...  physioex   Oct-14-07 02:43 AM   #5 
  - I'd say there may be some question about Kubler-Ross's ordering being correct,  bbgrunt   Oct-14-07 02:37 PM   #55 
  - are you sure?  hfojvt   Oct-14-07 03:15 PM   #113 
  - If what Ralph Nader said is true about not impeaching Bush, then...  Selatius   Oct-14-07 02:43 AM   #6 
  - There you go...  nadinbrzezinski   Oct-14-07 02:45 AM   #7 
     - Y'know what was funny? How many DUers decided to shoot the messenger.  Selatius   Oct-14-07 02:55 AM   #9 
        - After tonight that was not a surprising response  nadinbrzezinski   Oct-14-07 02:57 AM   #10 
        - perfectly stated. nt  bbgrunt   Oct-14-07 02:40 PM   #62 
        - and prevent discussion on the crucial issues that caused people to vote for him.  omega minimo   Oct-14-07 03:15 PM   #112 
  - Ignorance Is Bliss; Knowing Is Killing Me Slowly, as There Is Nothing I Can Do About It  Demeter   Oct-14-07 02:53 AM   #8 
  - I guess, but I can't stay silent  nadinbrzezinski   Oct-14-07 02:58 AM   #11 
  - What happened in New Orleans occurred right in front of everybody's face,  Swamp Rat   Oct-14-07 03:16 AM   #12 
  - I hope we can stop it  nadinbrzezinski   Oct-14-07 03:20 AM   #13 
  - The sad thing is, we have the lessons of history and the means to access them, yet they are ignored  Swamp Rat   Oct-14-07 03:30 AM   #14 
     - The problem is that if you raise nazis  nadinbrzezinski   Oct-14-07 03:36 AM   #15 
     - Speaking of 'anomie'  Swamp Rat   Oct-14-07 03:56 AM   #16 
        - Wow, some of those photos you took I assume  nadinbrzezinski   Oct-14-07 02:36 PM   #53 
     - The Sad Thing Is That I Actually Believed It Couldn't  lligrd   Oct-14-07 05:51 AM   #18 
     - "What good fortune for governments that the people do not think." - Hitler  RFKin2008   Oct-14-07 07:00 PM   #214 
        - Thank you  Swamp Rat   Oct-14-07 08:19 PM   #217 
  - Good one!  fortyfeetunder   Oct-14-07 02:36 PM   #54 
  - Denial indeed.  democrank   Oct-14-07 05:42 AM   #17 
  - It isn't so much as denial, but people don't pay attention  DemReadingDU   Oct-14-07 05:57 AM   #19 
  - You know where I stand on this issue.  mmonk   Oct-14-07 05:59 AM   #20 
  - Denial  Afje   Oct-14-07 06:32 AM   #21 
  - On edit, I get what you mean  mmonk   Oct-14-07 07:52 AM   #24 
  - Sure it can happen here. And none of the posters  cali   Oct-14-07 06:39 AM   #22 
  - go away cali. you are nasty.  robinlynne   Oct-14-07 01:10 PM   #28 
  - No. Thanks for the ever so kind invitation  cali   Oct-14-07 01:13 PM   #29 
  - good idea.  robinlynne   Oct-14-07 01:20 PM   #31 
  - Trust me.  Puglover   Oct-14-07 06:45 PM   #212 
  - Oh geeeeeez nothing like calling the kettle black  seemslikeadream   Oct-14-07 02:10 PM   #38 
     - and one liners prove your assertion so well.  cali   Oct-14-07 02:23 PM   #41 
  - Let's demonstrate WHY some of what you wrote was challenged  cali   Oct-14-07 06:57 AM   #23 
  - K&R  bvar22   Oct-14-07 12:21 PM   #25 
  - Eyes that cannot discern the ink in the water...  BushDespiser12   Oct-14-07 12:26 PM   #26 
  - I think the quote was actually "So this is how liberty dies, with thunderous applause!"  calipendence   Oct-14-07 12:29 PM   #27 
  - parts of an interview with costa-gavros and jean-claude grumberg, about their film  robinlynne   Oct-14-07 01:17 PM   #30 
  - You can deplore this administration's crimes without claiming they inevitably lead to Nazi fascism  jpgray   Oct-14-07 01:22 PM   #32 
  - Making all arguments that warn of parallels  mmonk   Oct-14-07 01:28 PM   #34 
  - Guantanamo is a gulag. It is not however comparable to Soviet gulags or Dachau  jpgray   Oct-14-07 01:32 PM   #35 
     - The arguments many are making are trajectory.  mmonk   Oct-14-07 01:38 PM   #36 
     - No, they are not "trajectory"  cuke   Oct-14-07 02:15 PM   #39 
     - If you believe that there are elements of a police state,a nd that to continue on this road  robinlynne   Oct-14-07 02:32 PM   #49 
     - You can agree that we are on that road, yet disagree that our road resembles that of Germany  jpgray   Oct-14-07 02:34 PM   #51 
     - Wrong, you are misrepresenting the OP  cuke   Oct-14-07 02:37 PM   #57 
     - By trajectory, I am refering to the steps to shut down a working democracy.  mmonk   Oct-14-07 08:42 PM   #221 
     - But there have been times this country met all ten steps, and did not proceed to fascism  jpgray   Oct-14-07 02:28 PM   #44 
     - Those had an end game (the wars). They also did not involve acceptance  mmonk   Oct-14-07 08:36 PM   #219 
     - The concentration camps in Germany were only able to happen because of  robinlynne   Oct-14-07 02:31 PM   #46 
        - But Germany's exemplars of the ten steps were on a wholly different magnitude  jpgray   Oct-14-07 02:32 PM   #47 
           - no. Germany got further along the steps. The whole point here is that the road  robinlynne   Oct-14-07 02:37 PM   #56 
           - You are misrepresenting the author and the OP  cuke   Oct-14-07 02:39 PM   #58 
           - Their path does not resemble ours at all. Proto-fascist Germany is not comparable to where we are  jpgray   Oct-14-07 02:40 PM   #61 
              - And the OP refuses to use anyother example besides Nazi Germany  cuke   Oct-14-07 02:48 PM   #74 
              - I don't think you read the book, did you?  robinlynne   Oct-14-07 02:48 PM   #75 
                 - The author believes we are already a fascist nation  cuke   Oct-14-07 02:53 PM   #82 
                    - That would entail looking up her work and posting it for you. So do you think we have a true democra  robinlynne   Oct-14-07 02:58 PM   #91 
                       - Well, I hate to ask you to do something as difficult  cuke   Oct-14-07 03:06 PM   #98 
                          - I keep telling you to read it, and you say you dont need to, you already know more than the author.  robinlynne   Oct-14-07 03:07 PM   #99 
                          - That's just untrue  cuke   Oct-14-07 03:10 PM   #105 
                             - ok. there are 3 of you attacking her premise, so I may have mixed you up.  robinlynne   Oct-14-07 03:16 PM   #115 
                          - That's how they tend to start.  mmonk   Oct-14-07 08:31 PM   #218 
           - nope. It stareted in the same way, and progressed slowly. You just know how their  robinlynne   Oct-14-07 02:47 PM   #72 
              - It didn't start in the same way. Mass-scale politcal riots and shootings? Economic chaos?  jpgray   Oct-14-07 02:50 PM   #76 
              - as PNAC put it" without 9-11 it would have taken a much longer time here".  robinlynne   Oct-14-07 02:54 PM   #84 
                 - You didn't answer my questions. Those elements were key in Germany's decline--where are they?  jpgray   Oct-14-07 02:55 PM   #86 
                 - Our discussion is about WHAT the 2 GOVERNMENTS did that is similar.  robinlynne   Oct-14-07 03:05 PM   #96 
                    - The government -organized- the brutal, lethal reaction to worker riots in Germany  jpgray   Oct-14-07 03:08 PM   #100 
                    - Believe that if you want. or join us and fight it.  robinlynne   Oct-14-07 03:10 PM   #103 
                       - So you deny the violence was govt-organized?  cuke   Oct-14-07 03:11 PM   #106 
                       - what violence? what am i supposed to be denying?  robinlynne   Oct-14-07 03:20 PM   #121 
                          - Post #100 - govt organize violence against workers  cuke   Oct-14-07 03:31 PM   #136 
                             - has nothing to do with this discussion. and, unfortunately, we are headed  robinlynne   Oct-14-07 03:35 PM   #143 
                                - The violence was HOW Hitler rose to power  cuke   Oct-14-07 03:54 PM   #163 
                       - Fighting it doesn't include making a false historical comparison. That -undermines- the fight  jpgray   Oct-14-07 03:13 PM   #107 
                          - I only see 3 people belittling. MOst people, upon hearing her theory get  robinlynne   Oct-14-07 03:20 PM   #120 
                             - Ask your favorite history professor if our state is much like pre-fascist or fascist Germany  jpgray   Oct-14-07 03:23 PM   #124 
                                - are you a history professor? besides what she says is: there are ten steps  robinlynne   Oct-14-07 03:27 PM   #130 
                                - We've heard about the ten steps  cuke   Oct-14-07 03:34 PM   #139 
                                - Nobody is making that claim.  mmonk   Oct-14-07 08:47 PM   #222 
                    - Thank you for bringing up Argentina  cuke   Oct-14-07 03:08 PM   #101 
                 - That is the part that is puzzling to her  nadinbrzezinski   Oct-14-07 02:56 PM   #87 
                 - That is the part that is puzzling to her  nadinbrzezinski   Oct-14-07 02:56 PM   #88 
                 - And Germans are people too!!  cuke   Oct-14-07 02:58 PM   #89 
              - How their story ended  cuke   Oct-14-07 02:52 PM   #81 
     - I will say it one again before you go on IGNORE  nadinbrzezinski   Oct-14-07 02:41 PM   #64 
     - It's a shame that basic disagreement elicits such a closed-minded response from you  jpgray   Oct-14-07 02:42 PM   #66 
     - You continue to make the unbelievable claim that you want to discuss the METHOD  cuke   Oct-14-07 03:00 PM   #92 
     - they are comparable  GreenArrow   Oct-14-07 06:19 PM   #208 
  - inevitable it is not. nor is that the argument. What is amazing is that when you  robinlynne   Oct-14-07 01:56 PM   #37 
     - You are100% wrong  cuke   Oct-14-07 02:19 PM   #40 
        - You obviously did not read the book! She says there are 10 steps to fascism.  robinlynne   Oct-14-07 02:27 PM   #42 
        - 10 of the 10 occured under Lincoln and FDR--right here.  jpgray   Oct-14-07 02:29 PM   #45 
        - did you read it yet?  robinlynne   Oct-14-07 02:46 PM   #71 
           - Don't hide behind the book. I've seen her explain her thesis numerous times  jpgray   Oct-14-07 02:51 PM   #80 
              - It's all she has  cuke   Oct-14-07 02:55 PM   #85 
                 - You're discussing a thesis written about in a book.  robinlynne   Oct-14-07 03:32 PM   #137 
                    - A thesis YOU wont post  cuke   Oct-14-07 03:35 PM   #142 
                       - here you go: the basic thesis is:  robinlynne   Oct-14-07 03:38 PM   #148 
                          - Only one minor quible, she uses Authoritarian systems  nadinbrzezinski   Oct-14-07 03:39 PM   #149 
                             - ok.  robinlynne   Oct-14-07 03:40 PM   #153 
                                - Well, that explains why you don't see me criticizing Wolf  cuke   Oct-14-07 03:52 PM   #162 
        - I was talking about the OP, not Wolf  cuke   Oct-14-07 02:32 PM   #48 
           - The Op, and wolf say no such thing. They both say we are already in the process!  robinlynne   Oct-14-07 02:39 PM   #59 
              - But our process doesn't resemble that of Germany--at all!  jpgray   Oct-14-07 02:41 PM   #65 
              - When asked if we are already a fascists state, Wolf said "YES"  cuke   Oct-14-07 02:45 PM   #70 
        - Wolf believes we are well on the way to fascism. 90% of the way there, in fact.  robinlynne   Oct-14-07 02:28 PM   #43 
        - Wrong again. Wolf says we are already there  cuke   Oct-14-07 02:34 PM   #50 
           - She would do well to distinguish between fascism and social-fascism  jpgray   Oct-14-07 02:36 PM   #52 
           - read the book. You are arguing semantics, not reality. really.  robinlynne   Oct-14-07 02:40 PM   #60 
           - read the book. you are arguing and just missing the whole point.  robinlynne   Oct-14-07 02:45 PM   #67 
           - We are -not- doing the same things as the Nazis, or even Weimar Germany  jpgray   Oct-14-07 02:47 PM   #73 
           - I disagree strongly with you. It is also very easy to see similarities between  robinlynne   Oct-14-07 02:51 PM   #79 
              - If we were like Germany, Nader and Kucinich would be dead  jpgray   Oct-14-07 02:54 PM   #83 
              - wellstone is pretty dead.  robinlynne   Oct-14-07 03:00 PM   #93 
                 - He was not rifle-butted in the face, shot, and dumped in a river  jpgray   Oct-14-07 03:06 PM   #97 
                    - Those steps, to me, surely look like fascism. I dont believe there are any true democracies  robinlynne   Oct-14-07 03:09 PM   #102 
                       - America under FDR? America under Lincoln? Fascism to you?  jpgray   Oct-14-07 03:10 PM   #104 
                          - I dont see why you make the comparison at all. FDR tore down corporate power,  robinlynne   Oct-14-07 03:18 PM   #118 
                             - Ah but FDR meets all ten of Naomi's steps  jpgray   Oct-14-07 03:21 PM   #122 
                                - secret prisons?  robinlynne   Oct-14-07 03:24 PM   #125 
                                - The internment camps don't qualify? If no, then Gitmo doesn't qualify  jpgray   Oct-14-07 03:26 PM   #128 
                                   - There was torture in the japanese camps? Never heard that before.  robinlynne   Oct-14-07 03:28 PM   #131 
                                   - Many died or were permanently injured for lack of medical care  jpgray   Oct-14-07 03:35 PM   #141 
                                   - no jsut going through the list. FDR's time doesn't fit in. MCCArthyism was the closest  robinlynne   Oct-14-07 03:36 PM   #145 
                                   - you dont need gitmo for that argument. we have secret prisGons now all over the world, in  robinlynne   Oct-14-07 03:31 PM   #134 
                                      - Then why did the OP insist on using Gitmo?  cuke   Oct-14-07 03:37 PM   #147 
                                      - who cares? why are you fighting the OP with such a vehemence?  robinlynne   Oct-14-07 03:39 PM   #150 
                                      - Did you read the OP?  cuke   Oct-14-07 03:56 PM   #165 
                                - not even close. here they are:  robinlynne   Oct-14-07 03:26 PM   #127 
                                   - I know what they are. Which do you think aren't met?  jpgray   Oct-14-07 03:29 PM   #132 
                                      - here you go  robinlynne   Oct-14-07 03:34 PM   #140 
                                      - 5, 6 and 10 all are YES by virtue of Japanese internment  jpgray   Oct-14-07 03:40 PM   #154 
                                      - this is hopeless.  cali   Oct-14-07 03:37 PM   #146 
              - There are also similarities between * and Gandhi  cuke   Oct-14-07 03:03 PM   #95 
           - Last weekend I went to best buys  nadinbrzezinski   Oct-14-07 02:50 PM   #77 
           - I was just about to agree with you  cali   Oct-14-07 02:51 PM   #78 
              - In their mind, ignoring the differences is keeping an open mind  cuke   Oct-14-07 03:13 PM   #108 
                 - Sadly when you do that, you completely toss critical thinking  cali   Oct-14-07 03:16 PM   #116 
           - Yes, but if allowed to continue could get worse in its abuses.  mmonk   Oct-14-07 08:39 PM   #220 
        - Actually, not to pick nits or count angels or whatever, that's  cali   Oct-14-07 02:45 PM   #68 
           - Do you mean the OP or the author, Wolf?  cuke   Oct-14-07 03:16 PM   #114 
              - No, I meant Wolf. Read Stiglitz' review. It's in post #63  cali   Oct-14-07 03:19 PM   #119 
                 - No, Wolf was pretty clear about it  cuke   Oct-14-07 03:43 PM   #157 
                    - That's interesting.  cali   Oct-14-07 04:13 PM   #177 
                       - "getting their rocks off" is a good way to put it  cuke   Oct-14-07 04:46 PM   #190 
  - Denial is a survival strategy, not a great one, but there it is.  sfexpat2000   Oct-14-07 01:25 PM   #33 
  - I agree with him, the Interwebs are a tool  nadinbrzezinski   Oct-14-07 02:45 PM   #69 
  - Here. A review of "The Shock Doctrine"  cali   Oct-14-07 02:41 PM   #63 
  - The modern totalitarian Empire superficially looks nothing like Germany...  JackRiddler   Oct-14-07 02:58 PM   #90 
  - I agree to a point--arguing it's not like Germany's decline indicates knowledge, not ignorance  jpgray   Oct-14-07 03:02 PM   #94 
  - People are always stuck with comparisons...  JackRiddler   Oct-14-07 03:14 PM   #110 
     - There are valid historical analogies. One just needs to acknowledge the capacity for error  jpgray   Oct-14-07 03:18 PM   #117 
     - I would rephrase that slightly.  Swamp Rat   Oct-14-07 03:23 PM   #123 
     - like this?  omega minimo   Oct-14-07 03:40 PM   #152 
     - There is nothing wrong with comparison  cuke   Oct-14-07 04:03 PM   #167 
        - Agreed but...  JackRiddler   Oct-14-07 05:33 PM   #203 
  - I actually agree with much of your post  cali   Oct-14-07 03:14 PM   #109 
  - to argue "it's nothing exactly like nazi germany" is to argue 2 empires must be 100% identical  NuttyFluffers   Oct-14-07 11:02 PM   #224 
  - kick  spanone   Oct-14-07 03:14 PM   #111 
  - "Cassandra's Curse"  proud patriot   Oct-14-07 03:24 PM   #126 
  - Most of this thread turned into arguing about different flavors of fascism, ignoring CURRENT THREATS  omega minimo   Oct-14-07 03:27 PM   #129 
  - The fascists love when a bad argument marginalizes a real, crucial warning  jpgray   Oct-14-07 03:29 PM   #133 
  - the bad arguers are the ones doing the marginalizing  omega minimo   Oct-14-07 03:34 PM   #138 
     - Uncritical illogical thinking got us into this mess. You would use the same to get us out?  jpgray   Oct-14-07 03:42 PM   #156 
     - Nice strawman. No thanks.  omega minimo   Oct-14-07 04:04 PM   #168 
        - Go look in a mirror.  cali   Oct-14-07 04:26 PM   #185 
        - How is that a strawman?  jpgray   Oct-14-07 06:02 PM   #205 
     - smug putdowns? Did you read the OP?  cuke   Oct-14-07 04:01 PM   #166 
        - this bs is a waste of time  omega minimo   Oct-14-07 04:05 PM   #169 
           - So being "in denial" was meant to flatter?  cuke   Oct-14-07 04:07 PM   #170 
              - go rack up your posts somewhere else. buzz away, little fly.  omega minimo   Oct-14-07 04:11 PM   #175 
                 - I'm not going anywhere  cuke   Oct-14-07 04:46 PM   #191 
  - I actually think they are AFRAID  nadinbrzezinski   Oct-14-07 03:31 PM   #135 
  - the alarms been goin off for a long time  omega minimo   Oct-14-07 03:35 PM   #144 
     - And that is the hardest step  nadinbrzezinski   Oct-14-07 03:39 PM   #151 
     - that's the only step, unless one is a hypocrite. Not a hard choice.  omega minimo   Oct-14-07 03:40 PM   #155 
        - It should't be a hard choice  nadinbrzezinski   Oct-14-07 03:45 PM   #158 
           - The elders in my family are afraid now. because of the mccarthy era. because  robinlynne   Oct-14-07 03:50 PM   #161 
              - Some of my family friends came from Europe  nadinbrzezinski   Oct-14-07 03:54 PM   #164 
     - BINGO! Maybe that is why they deny. Accepting this thesis means that we have to do  robinlynne   Oct-14-07 03:48 PM   #160 
        - if only  omega minimo   Oct-14-07 04:08 PM   #171 
        - You don't need to accept the thesis to have been fighting  cali   Oct-14-07 04:21 PM   #182 
           - so you agree fighting about it is pointless  omega minimo   Oct-14-07 04:38 PM   #187 
              - no. I don't.  cali   Oct-14-07 04:43 PM   #189 
                 - fighting is a pointless waste of time  omega minimo   Oct-14-07 05:29 PM   #202 
        - Straw man  cuke   Oct-14-07 04:08 PM   #172 
        - What astonishing hubris and ignorance tied up in one  cali   Oct-14-07 04:10 PM   #174 
           - funny how those who want to fight here are some of the meanest, just like to fight  omega minimo   Oct-14-07 04:12 PM   #176 
              - No, it's not just about liking to fight. it's about caring passionately  cali   Oct-14-07 04:16 PM   #179 
                 - the meanness speaks for itself  omega minimo   Oct-14-07 04:21 PM   #181 
                    - That's an opinion. Not a fact.  cali   Oct-14-07 04:25 PM   #184 
                       - what's wrong with  omega minimo   Oct-14-07 04:37 PM   #186 
                          - I did that initially in her first thread  cali   Oct-14-07 04:41 PM   #188 
                          - then don't bother  omega minimo   Oct-14-07 04:51 PM   #195 
                          - Ignoring the differences is "open-minded"; Considering the differences is "in denial"  cuke   Oct-14-07 04:48 PM   #192 
                             - another stupid strawman question. don't put your assumptions on me  omega minimo   Oct-14-07 04:50 PM   #194 
                                - Is that all you have?  cuke   Oct-14-07 04:53 PM   #197 
                                   - no, i've got your number  omega minimo   Oct-14-07 04:54 PM   #199 
                                      - Feel free to call anytime, day or nite  cuke   Oct-14-07 05:01 PM   #200 
                                         - LOL.  cali   Oct-14-07 06:25 PM   #210 
  - um. you got it backwards. The point is not to amke the same mistake the German people made.  robinlynne   Oct-14-07 03:46 PM   #159 
     - no  omega minimo   Oct-14-07 04:09 PM   #173 
  - Ok what amazes me is the incredible need to still  nadinbrzezinski   Oct-14-07 04:16 PM   #178 
  - if we discuss instead of argue, maybe sumthin to think about is whether we have free&fair elections  omega minimo   Oct-14-07 04:19 PM   #180 
     - Trust me, we tried  nadinbrzezinski   Oct-14-07 04:22 PM   #183 
     - You only tried to avoid responding to criticism  cuke   Oct-14-07 04:50 PM   #193 
        - flaming, baiting, stalking, attacking, taking fights from thread to thread......................  omega minimo   Oct-14-07 04:53 PM   #196 
           - An excellent description of the OP  cuke   Oct-14-07 04:54 PM   #198 
     - bingo again omega!  robinlynne   Oct-14-07 05:07 PM   #201 
  - There's plenty of space between being in denial & being Chicken Little.  Blue-Jay   Oct-14-07 05:35 PM   #204 
  - Actually anything that has to do with AUTHORITARIAN models  nadinbrzezinski   Oct-14-07 06:05 PM   #206 
  - Who is trying to silence you?  Blue-Jay   Oct-14-07 06:08 PM   #207 
     - No she doesn't .  cali   Oct-14-07 06:23 PM   #209 
     - I do, but it is the amount of thread hijacks that these guys  nadinbrzezinski   Oct-14-07 06:33 PM   #211 
        - I think  Blue-Jay   Oct-14-07 06:47 PM   #213 
           - It goes well beyond disagreement  nadinbrzezinski   Oct-14-07 07:03 PM   #215 
           - *snort*  cali   Oct-14-07 07:07 PM   #216 
  - the details of the fabric's pattern has nothing to do with the pattern of the dress  NuttyFluffers   Oct-14-07 11:15 PM   #226 
  - The coincidental incidentals I posted in another thread.  mmonk   Oct-14-07 08:52 PM   #223 
     - Yep, that is a good compilation  nadinbrzezinski   Oct-14-07 11:13 PM   #225 
 

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