| 135. You're Ignoring Other Forms of Exploitation, No? |
|
What about the retailer that sells you goods for more than what he/she paid for it? Is that not also exploitation?
What about the home owner that sells their home for more than what they paid for it?
Labor exploitation is but one form of exploitation, and in a fluid, regulated, market-based capitalistic system, workers move in and out of the exploited role all of the time. Today, you may be a temp for a large corporation. Tomorrow, you own your own corporation. Today, you borrow money. Tomorrow, you lend it.
No one is forced into an exploitative labor role. No one.
|
| -Do all business owners (or corporations) exploit workers? What would you consider exploitation? |
Nikia |
Feb-12-07 06:57 PM |
#0 |
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It's making profits off disrupting their lives. |
Heaven and Earth |
Feb-12-07 07:09 PM |
#1 |
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No, they don't. And anyone who says "Yes, all of them do" is full of crap. |
Redstone |
Feb-12-07 07:11 PM |
#2 |
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A few things |
manic expression |
Feb-12-07 08:22 PM |
#9 |
  -
A few replies: |
Redstone |
Feb-12-07 08:38 PM |
#17 |
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OK |
manic expression |
Feb-12-07 08:46 PM |
#19 |
  -
It doesn't speak a damn thing that the company has been bought; it was sold because |
Redstone |
Feb-12-07 09:00 PM |
#22 |
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It was basically inevitable in a market economy |
manic expression |
Feb-12-07 11:27 PM |
#59 |
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You were fortunate to work for that company. |
raccoon |
Feb-13-07 08:54 AM |
#71 |
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I'll fight with you. |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-12-07 09:52 PM |
#35 |
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When you say "exploit" does it mean the same as when other's say "exploit"? |
GOTV |
Feb-13-07 09:25 AM |
#80 |
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Exploit is morally neutral |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-13-07 09:39 AM |
#84 |
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Treating someone with disrespect because you know you can always |
The Backlash Cometh |
Feb-12-07 07:12 PM |
#3 |
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Not all businesses exploit workers. Exploitation would involve paying |
muntrv |
Feb-12-07 07:17 PM |
#4 |
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False. |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-12-07 09:53 PM |
#36 |
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My union prevents me from being exploited. |
MrSlayer |
Feb-12-07 07:56 PM |
#5 |
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False. |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-12-07 09:53 PM |
#37 |
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Don't explain your point or anything. |
MrSlayer |
Feb-12-07 10:28 PM |
#55 |
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If the company you work for |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-12-07 10:32 PM |
#58 |
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I disagree. I am fairly compensated. |
MrSlayer |
Feb-12-07 11:35 PM |
#60 |
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Exploitation is not measured purely by compensation |
manic expression |
Feb-12-07 11:39 PM |
#62 |
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"Make less than you produce" |
Unvanguard |
Feb-13-07 05:50 PM |
#168 |
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Technology aids and improves production |
manic expression |
Feb-13-07 06:24 PM |
#171 |
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Well, the typical argument |
Unvanguard |
Feb-13-07 06:38 PM |
#172 |
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OK |
manic expression |
Feb-13-07 06:42 PM |
#173 |
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So? |
Unvanguard |
Feb-13-07 06:48 PM |
#175 |
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This shows that it is labor |
manic expression |
Feb-13-07 06:52 PM |
#176 |
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Yes, other workers did. |
Unvanguard |
Feb-13-07 07:09 PM |
#177 |
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Yes |
manic expression |
Feb-13-07 07:15 PM |
#180 |
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Indeed - and I responded to that point. |
Unvanguard |
Feb-13-07 07:22 PM |
#182 |
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Property is theft anyway |
manic expression |
Feb-13-07 07:28 PM |
#183 |
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Actually, I agree with everything you said there. |
Unvanguard |
Feb-13-07 07:38 PM |
#185 |
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That's good to hear |
manic expression |
Feb-13-07 07:43 PM |
#186 |
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Bakunin and Kropotkin, to my knowledge, accepted surplus-value. |
Unvanguard |
Feb-13-07 07:59 PM |
#187 |
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As manic expression said |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-13-07 07:45 AM |
#67 |
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so does that mean management is also being exploited |
onenote |
Feb-13-07 11:55 AM |
#104 |
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Yes. |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-13-07 12:01 PM |
#107 |
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So... |
otherlander |
Feb-13-07 07:19 PM |
#181 |
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Yes and no. |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-13-07 10:06 PM |
#193 |
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Examples I saw when I was working temp |
Lydia Leftcoast |
Feb-12-07 08:15 PM |
#6 |
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I think workers can be more easily exploited when they feel that they don't have a choice |
Nikia |
Feb-12-07 10:21 PM |
#50 |
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Yes |
manic expression |
Feb-12-07 08:20 PM |
#7 |
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Such is the nature of unfettered capitalism |
Zodiak Ironfist |
Feb-13-07 03:45 PM |
#158 |
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Business owners, not necessarily. Corporations, yes. |
porphyrian |
Feb-12-07 08:20 PM |
#8 |
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True to an extent |
manic expression |
Feb-12-07 08:26 PM |
#10 |
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In an environment where it's profitable to do so or without worker protections, yes. |
porphyrian |
Feb-12-07 08:29 PM |
#12 |
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That is an environment that naturally takes hold |
manic expression |
Feb-12-07 08:34 PM |
#14 |
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That, right there, beng the reason I've never worked for a large corporation. |
Redstone |
Feb-12-07 08:44 PM |
#18 |
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Heh, right. - n/t |
porphyrian |
Feb-12-07 09:22 PM |
#26 |
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best job i had was with coca cola. best insurance and other benefits |
seabeyond |
Feb-12-07 09:41 PM |
#32 |
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Right, but what is the impact of soda-related diabetes they're directly responsible for worldwide? |
porphyrian |
Feb-12-07 09:47 PM |
#34 |
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personal responsiblity. a person have diabetes and shouldnt drink it |
seabeyond |
Feb-12-07 10:09 PM |
#46 |
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No, I'm saying their product has caused an exponential increase in diabeties among... |
porphyrian |
Feb-12-07 10:22 PM |
#51 |
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no they are not responsible. the person that abuse the product and all sugars |
seabeyond |
Feb-12-07 10:26 PM |
#53 |
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Blah, blah, blah. |
porphyrian |
Feb-12-07 10:28 PM |
#56 |
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with you? wink. n/t |
seabeyond |
Feb-12-07 10:31 PM |
#57 |
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So the manufacturer of heroin is not in any way responsible for the ill effects that his |
greyhound1966 |
Feb-13-07 08:25 AM |
#68 |
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i dont agree with you. i dont agree we are all victims. i dont agree we are all powerless |
seabeyond |
Feb-13-07 08:37 AM |
#69 |
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It boggles my mind too |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-13-07 08:49 AM |
#70 |
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exploit |
seabeyond |
Feb-13-07 08:56 AM |
#72 |
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Well, it IS selfish |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-13-07 09:09 AM |
#75 |
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not a knee jerk reaction. for you to characterize it in such a manner is exploiting |
seabeyond |
Feb-13-07 09:18 AM |
#77 |
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There we go. |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-13-07 09:23 AM |
#78 |
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but lets be real. not a single post using selfish or exploit is doing it |
seabeyond |
Feb-13-07 09:28 AM |
#82 |
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The OP was referencing a post |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-13-07 09:34 AM |
#83 |
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fine. i was talking coca cola. now you talk about op. then tell |
seabeyond |
Feb-13-07 09:39 AM |
#85 |
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You said: |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-13-07 11:14 AM |
#93 |
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it is the conclusions being drawn that there is an |
seabeyond |
Feb-13-07 11:31 AM |
#95 |
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It's not a matter of equality |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-13-07 11:38 AM |
#98 |
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so???? n/t |
seabeyond |
Feb-13-07 11:58 AM |
#105 |
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So, you're arguing about equality |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-13-07 12:00 PM |
#106 |
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now we are at the point where you are asking me to repeat myself |
seabeyond |
Feb-13-07 12:06 PM |
#111 |
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I'm not asking you to repeat yourself |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-13-07 12:14 PM |
#116 |
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I have no idea where you get the idea this is about victims, except possibly through projecting |
greyhound1966 |
Feb-13-07 09:12 AM |
#76 |
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lets get back to the beginning of the conversation. |
seabeyond |
Feb-13-07 09:26 AM |
#81 |
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150 years ago, or whenever it was introduced, they had no idea that |
greyhound1966 |
Feb-13-07 10:21 AM |
#86 |
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you have a couple different issues going at the same time |
seabeyond |
Feb-13-07 11:45 AM |
#100 |
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I think if we were discussing this in a more communicative medium, |
greyhound1966 |
Feb-13-07 01:04 PM |
#133 |
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Who knew? You thought you were working for a company that made soda |
rinsd |
Feb-13-07 12:23 PM |
#122 |
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truly |
seabeyond |
Feb-13-07 01:01 PM |
#131 |
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I don't think it's very reflective of the Democratic Party... |
Hippo_Tron |
Feb-13-07 03:10 PM |
#153 |
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i hope so |
seabeyond |
Feb-13-07 04:33 PM |
#162 |
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The irony of things is that large corporations |
Nikia |
Feb-12-07 10:03 PM |
#43 |
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Right, but what percentage of their profits are they actually paying their employees? |
porphyrian |
Feb-12-07 10:07 PM |
#45 |
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Small business owners can often suck ass tremendously |
JVS |
Feb-12-07 10:24 PM |
#52 |
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I'm generalizing, but anyone who's worked for a businessman from the Mediterranean knows this. |
porphyrian |
Feb-12-07 10:27 PM |
#54 |
  -
do you know how much theft there is from employees. |
seabeyond |
Feb-13-07 09:07 AM |
#73 |
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The good one's, defined by several examples in this thread as those |
greyhound1966 |
Feb-13-07 09:23 AM |
#79 |
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I agree. Corporatism is a proven failure for the vast majority. |
porphyrian |
Feb-13-07 10:25 AM |
#87 |
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I agree that capitalism has its place, but as other, mostly European, countries |
greyhound1966 |
Feb-13-07 10:54 AM |
#89 |
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Oh God No, Not Be A Friggin Long Shot. Course, You're Sure To Get The Melodramatic Replies That Say |
OPERATIONMINDCRIME |
Feb-12-07 08:26 PM |
#11 |
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Here is a definition of exploitation |
manic expression |
Feb-12-07 08:32 PM |
#13 |
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I'm afraid that I'm NOT "interested in the Marxist viewpoint." Not even faintly. |
Redstone |
Feb-12-07 09:23 PM |
#27 |
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And how long do you expect capitalism to last? |
rug |
Feb-12-07 09:56 PM |
#40 |
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I posted it because others are probably interested |
manic expression |
Feb-12-07 11:35 PM |
#61 |
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While surplus-value is nonsense |
Unvanguard |
Feb-13-07 06:14 PM |
#170 |
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I think that, generally speaking, |
gollygee |
Feb-12-07 08:37 PM |
#15 |
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Absolutely not |
tammywammy |
Feb-12-07 08:38 PM |
#16 |
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So your peonage is acceptable because you are comfortable? |
greyhound1966 |
Feb-12-07 09:02 PM |
#23 |
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Just HAVE to be hostile, don't you? Got an agenda here, maybe? Someone is happy, |
Redstone |
Feb-12-07 09:29 PM |
#29 |
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I don't know what you are raving about but, yes I have started and run my own |
greyhound1966 |
Feb-13-07 12:43 AM |
#65 |
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"My own pursuit of the corporate dream?" HAHAHAHA. I work for MYSELF! |
Redstone |
Feb-13-07 07:10 PM |
#178 |
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It's a legitimate question. |
otherlander |
Feb-13-07 07:34 PM |
#184 |
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I do not know about the poster's employer |
Nikia |
Feb-12-07 10:10 PM |
#47 |
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That doesn't mean the employees aren't exploited |
manic expression |
Feb-13-07 12:17 AM |
#63 |
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That is good to hear. In my businesses, I used a different approach |
greyhound1966 |
Feb-13-07 12:52 AM |
#66 |
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All business owners? Not consciously, but see this toon, posted by Redqueen, |
greyhound1966 |
Feb-12-07 08:49 PM |
#20 |
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by definition, any capitalist enterprise exploits its workers |
leftofthedial |
Feb-12-07 08:53 PM |
#21 |
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And your problem with that is what, exactly? |
Redstone |
Feb-12-07 09:31 PM |
#30 |
  -
longer than I have time to post at the moment, but |
leftofthedial |
Feb-12-07 09:45 PM |
#33 |
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I was not being hostile, OK? Just want you to know that, because this is a subject |
Redstone |
Feb-12-07 09:57 PM |
#41 |
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you got it! |
leftofthedial |
Feb-12-07 10:00 PM |
#42 |
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Deadlines...that, I understand. Go get 'em. |
Redstone |
Feb-12-07 10:06 PM |
#44 |
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marxist tripe |
endarkenment |
Feb-13-07 01:18 PM |
#137 |
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One opinion |
manic expression |
Feb-13-07 03:30 PM |
#155 |
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The cooperative exists externally as what you |
endarkenment |
Feb-13-07 04:19 PM |
#160 |
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Cuba is a fine example |
manic expression |
Feb-13-07 06:13 PM |
#169 |
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It's like a relationship between a buyer and a seller. |
XemaSab |
Feb-12-07 09:05 PM |
#24 |
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yes |
JVS |
Feb-12-07 09:16 PM |
#25 |
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Well, to be technical... |
Katherine Brengle |
Feb-12-07 09:25 PM |
#28 |
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"What is the nature of a thing?" |
mitchum |
Feb-12-07 09:34 PM |
#31 |
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I think you're making the mistake |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-12-07 09:55 PM |
#38 |
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Doesn't the word exploitation imply there is some kind of unfairness? |
Nikia |
Feb-12-07 10:14 PM |
#48 |
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Exploitation does not necessarily imply unfairness |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-12-07 10:18 PM |
#49 |
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Without Exploitation, Resource-Gathering Would Be Pointless |
Crisco |
Feb-13-07 09:07 AM |
#74 |
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Employers don't convince people to contribute their labor |
manic expression |
Feb-13-07 12:22 PM |
#121 |
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You're Not Taking Freelancers and Other Self-Employed Into Account |
Crisco |
Feb-13-07 02:27 PM |
#148 |
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Are you claiming |
manic expression |
Feb-13-07 03:20 PM |
#154 |
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It's inherent in the relationship |
Will Robinson |
Feb-12-07 09:56 PM |
#39 |
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If a company makes a profit, they are exploiting |
MSchreader |
Feb-13-07 12:19 AM |
#64 |
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ummm...don't "bosses" work too? |
onenote |
Feb-13-07 12:04 PM |
#110 |
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They're "deciders"... |
MSchreader |
Feb-13-07 03:41 PM |
#157 |
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Workers benefit from business owners too |
gravity |
Feb-13-07 10:54 AM |
#88 |
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No matter how much competition there is for an employee |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-13-07 11:20 AM |
#94 |
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Both parties benefit |
gravity |
Feb-13-07 11:34 AM |
#96 |
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That wasn't my point. |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-13-07 11:37 AM |
#97 |
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The employee sells their labor at market value |
gravity |
Feb-13-07 12:10 PM |
#114 |
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What? |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-13-07 12:17 PM |
#117 |
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how do you figure its less than market value |
onenote |
Feb-13-07 12:27 PM |
#123 |
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So, your argument is |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-13-07 12:32 PM |
#125 |
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The market value is what someone is willing to pay |
gravity |
Feb-13-07 12:37 PM |
#127 |
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I'm not so clear that that's always the case... |
GOTV |
Feb-13-07 11:43 AM |
#99 |
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What?! |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-13-07 11:53 AM |
#103 |
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Simple |
GOTV |
Feb-13-07 12:01 PM |
#108 |
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Have you ever been in business? |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-13-07 12:09 PM |
#113 |
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A business would fail |
gravity |
Feb-13-07 12:18 PM |
#118 |
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Exactly. |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-13-07 12:19 PM |
#119 |
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But, could still succeed... |
GOTV |
Feb-13-07 12:52 PM |
#129 |
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A product is worth what people are willing to pay |
GOTV |
Feb-13-07 12:37 PM |
#126 |
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Ok, you're right. |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-13-07 10:35 PM |
#196 |
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Ok, we can agree that it's rare but possible, now to answer your questions |
GOTV |
Feb-15-07 12:34 PM |
#199 |
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In many companies, executive officers play the role of Moe |
Telly Savalas |
Feb-13-07 09:19 PM |
#191 |
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Exploited? Yes Taken Advantage of ? No |
Yavin4 |
Feb-13-07 10:55 AM |
#90 |
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Am I being expoited or am I exploiting? |
GOTV |
Feb-13-07 11:07 AM |
#91 |
  -
You Are Being Exploited, But You Are Comfortable With The Deal |
Yavin4 |
Feb-13-07 11:51 AM |
#101 |
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Why am I not also the exploiter?.... |
GOTV |
Feb-13-07 12:03 PM |
#109 |
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Because They're Making More From Your Labor Than You Are |
Yavin4 |
Feb-13-07 12:09 PM |
#112 |
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Ok, I see how you make the determination, but I'm not sure it's true in my case... |
GOTV |
Feb-13-07 12:21 PM |
#120 |
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The Product That You Make And Sell Is An Accumulation of All Labor |
Yavin4 |
Feb-13-07 01:06 PM |
#134 |
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What about those workers that had a pension and now find that "our" |
greyhound1966 |
Feb-13-07 11:10 AM |
#92 |
  -
That's a Different Scenario |
Yavin4 |
Feb-13-07 11:52 AM |
#102 |
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I would say practically all workers taken advantage of |
manic expression |
Feb-13-07 12:12 PM |
#115 |
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People may be using my labor, but am I not also using theirs? .... |
GOTV |
Feb-13-07 12:44 PM |
#128 |
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What are you using it for? |
manic expression |
Feb-13-07 12:53 PM |
#130 |
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To do things that are required, but that I don't want to do... |
GOTV |
Feb-13-07 01:04 PM |
#132 |
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OK |
manic expression |
Feb-13-07 01:17 PM |
#136 |
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Hopefully, I can get back to this later.... |
GOTV |
Feb-13-07 01:37 PM |
#141 |
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Exploitation |
manic expression |
Feb-13-07 02:59 PM |
#150 |
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This just doesn't seem right to me.... |
GOTV |
Feb-15-07 12:19 PM |
#198 |
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Everyone must be exploiting everyone then |
gravity |
Feb-13-07 01:37 PM |
#142 |
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Workers are exploited |
manic expression |
Feb-13-07 03:10 PM |
#152 |
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In your view... |
gravity |
Feb-13-07 08:36 PM |
#188 |
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Let's look at the picture |
manic expression |
Feb-13-07 08:42 PM |
#189 |
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The whole is greater than the sum of its parts |
gravity |
Feb-13-07 09:17 PM |
#190 |
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The parts which work |
manic expression |
Feb-13-07 09:25 PM |
#192 |
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You're Ignoring Other Forms of Exploitation, No? |
Yavin4 |
Feb-13-07 01:11 PM |
#135 |
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Not in the same way |
manic expression |
Feb-13-07 01:23 PM |
#138 |
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Rebuttal |
Yavin4 |
Feb-13-07 01:36 PM |
#139 |
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Exploitation refers to labor |
manic expression |
Feb-13-07 03:04 PM |
#151 |
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from my conversation above. this is what i conclude. all co., employees, |
seabeyond |
Feb-13-07 01:38 PM |
#143 |
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Exactly |
Yavin4 |
Feb-13-07 01:45 PM |
#144 |
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whose to say it is only monetary. a parent is exploited by their childrenr |
seabeyond |
Feb-13-07 01:48 PM |
#145 |
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No. I've been a worker and an owner. Both have good/bad points. |
uppityperson |
Feb-13-07 12:30 PM |
#124 |
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Take my son-in-law, please... |
Skidmore |
Feb-13-07 01:37 PM |
#140 |
 -
The Concept of Exploitation Is Neutral |
Yavin4 |
Feb-13-07 02:00 PM |
#146 |
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That exploitation is a neutral concept is one of those myths |
Skidmore |
Feb-13-07 03:41 PM |
#156 |
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"A difficulty in writing about corporations... |
stillcool47 |
Feb-13-07 02:16 PM |
#147 |
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In the words of Big Bill Haywood... |
davekriss |
Feb-13-07 02:55 PM |
#149 |
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Yes, all PRIVATELY OWNED AND OPERATED enterprises EXPLOIT workers |
Selatius |
Feb-13-07 04:03 PM |
#159 |
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Which Definition Of Exploit Is Being Referenced? |
OPERATIONMINDCRIME |
Feb-13-07 04:26 PM |
#161 |
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I was mainly answering his second question, which was... |
Selatius |
Feb-13-07 04:37 PM |
#163 |
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So You're Using An Innocent Definition Of Exploitation Then, Making It Sound Negative. |
OPERATIONMINDCRIME |
Feb-13-07 04:46 PM |
#164 |
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Yes, using that definition, the answer to your question is affirmative. The statement is... |
Selatius |
Feb-13-07 05:22 PM |
#165 |
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Just For The Record, |
OPERATIONMINDCRIME |
Feb-13-07 07:14 PM |
#179 |
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Dude |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-13-07 10:14 PM |
#194 |
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Dude, No One Said Otherwise. n/t |
OPERATIONMINDCRIME |
Feb-13-07 10:17 PM |
#195 |
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Sorry |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-13-07 10:36 PM |
#197 |
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The 'innocent' can still be negative |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-13-07 06:44 PM |
#174 |
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More or less, yes, but this is built in to the structure of a modern economy |
Unvanguard |
Feb-13-07 05:29 PM |
#166 |
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I know of one business that |
FlaGranny |
Feb-13-07 05:36 PM |
#167 |