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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-12-07 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. with you? wink. n/t
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  -Do all business owners (or corporations) exploit workers? What would you consider exploitation? Nikia  Feb-12-07 06:57 PM   #0 
  - It's making profits off disrupting their lives.  Heaven and Earth   Feb-12-07 07:09 PM   #1 
  - No, they don't. And anyone who says "Yes, all of them do" is full of crap.  Redstone   Feb-12-07 07:11 PM   #2 
  - A few things  manic expression   Feb-12-07 08:22 PM   #9 
  - A few replies:  Redstone   Feb-12-07 08:38 PM   #17 
     - OK  manic expression   Feb-12-07 08:46 PM   #19 
     - It doesn't speak a damn thing that the company has been bought; it was sold because  Redstone   Feb-12-07 09:00 PM   #22 
        - It was basically inevitable in a market economy  manic expression   Feb-12-07 11:27 PM   #59 
     - You were fortunate to work for that company.  raccoon   Feb-13-07 08:54 AM   #71 
  - I'll fight with you.  GirlinContempt   Feb-12-07 09:52 PM   #35 
     - When you say "exploit" does it mean the same as when other's say "exploit"?  GOTV   Feb-13-07 09:25 AM   #80 
        - Exploit is morally neutral  GirlinContempt   Feb-13-07 09:39 AM   #84 
  - Treating someone with disrespect because you know you can always  The Backlash Cometh   Feb-12-07 07:12 PM   #3 
  - Not all businesses exploit workers. Exploitation would involve paying  muntrv   Feb-12-07 07:17 PM   #4 
  - False.  GirlinContempt   Feb-12-07 09:53 PM   #36 
  - My union prevents me from being exploited.  MrSlayer   Feb-12-07 07:56 PM   #5 
  - False.  GirlinContempt   Feb-12-07 09:53 PM   #37 
     - Don't explain your point or anything.  MrSlayer   Feb-12-07 10:28 PM   #55 
        - If the company you work for  GirlinContempt   Feb-12-07 10:32 PM   #58 
           - I disagree. I am fairly compensated.  MrSlayer   Feb-12-07 11:35 PM   #60 
              - Exploitation is not measured purely by compensation  manic expression   Feb-12-07 11:39 PM   #62 
              - "Make less than you produce"  Unvanguard   Feb-13-07 05:50 PM   #168 
                 - Technology aids and improves production  manic expression   Feb-13-07 06:24 PM   #171 
                    - Well, the typical argument  Unvanguard   Feb-13-07 06:38 PM   #172 
                       - OK  manic expression   Feb-13-07 06:42 PM   #173 
                          - So?  Unvanguard   Feb-13-07 06:48 PM   #175 
                             - This shows that it is labor  manic expression   Feb-13-07 06:52 PM   #176 
                                - Yes, other workers did.  Unvanguard   Feb-13-07 07:09 PM   #177 
                                   - Yes  manic expression   Feb-13-07 07:15 PM   #180 
                                      - Indeed - and I responded to that point.  Unvanguard   Feb-13-07 07:22 PM   #182 
                                         - Property is theft anyway  manic expression   Feb-13-07 07:28 PM   #183 
                                            - Actually, I agree with everything you said there.  Unvanguard   Feb-13-07 07:38 PM   #185 
                                               - That's good to hear  manic expression   Feb-13-07 07:43 PM   #186 
                                                  - Bakunin and Kropotkin, to my knowledge, accepted surplus-value.  Unvanguard   Feb-13-07 07:59 PM   #187 
              - As manic expression said  GirlinContempt   Feb-13-07 07:45 AM   #67 
                 - so does that mean management is also being exploited  onenote   Feb-13-07 11:55 AM   #104 
                    - Yes.  GirlinContempt   Feb-13-07 12:01 PM   #107 
                       - So...  otherlander   Feb-13-07 07:19 PM   #181 
                          - Yes and no.  GirlinContempt   Feb-13-07 10:06 PM   #193 
  - Examples I saw when I was working temp  Lydia Leftcoast   Feb-12-07 08:15 PM   #6 
  - I think workers can be more easily exploited when they feel that they don't have a choice  Nikia   Feb-12-07 10:21 PM   #50 
  - Yes  manic expression   Feb-12-07 08:20 PM   #7 
  - Such is the nature of unfettered capitalism  Zodiak Ironfist   Feb-13-07 03:45 PM   #158 
  - Business owners, not necessarily. Corporations, yes.  porphyrian   Feb-12-07 08:20 PM   #8 
  - True to an extent  manic expression   Feb-12-07 08:26 PM   #10 
  - In an environment where it's profitable to do so or without worker protections, yes.  porphyrian   Feb-12-07 08:29 PM   #12 
     - That is an environment that naturally takes hold  manic expression   Feb-12-07 08:34 PM   #14 
  - That, right there, beng the reason I've never worked for a large corporation.  Redstone   Feb-12-07 08:44 PM   #18 
  - Heh, right. - n/t  porphyrian   Feb-12-07 09:22 PM   #26 
  - best job i had was with coca cola. best insurance and other benefits  seabeyond   Feb-12-07 09:41 PM   #32 
  - Right, but what is the impact of soda-related diabetes they're directly responsible for worldwide?  porphyrian   Feb-12-07 09:47 PM   #34 
     - personal responsiblity. a person have diabetes and shouldnt drink it  seabeyond   Feb-12-07 10:09 PM   #46 
        - No, I'm saying their product has caused an exponential increase in diabeties among...  porphyrian   Feb-12-07 10:22 PM   #51 
        - no they are not responsible. the person that abuse the product and all sugars  seabeyond   Feb-12-07 10:26 PM   #53 
           - Blah, blah, blah.  porphyrian   Feb-12-07 10:28 PM   #56 
           - with you? wink. n/t  seabeyond   Feb-12-07 10:31 PM   #57 
           - So the manufacturer of heroin is not in any way responsible for the ill effects that his  greyhound1966   Feb-13-07 08:25 AM   #68 
              - i dont agree with you. i dont agree we are all victims. i dont agree we are all powerless  seabeyond   Feb-13-07 08:37 AM   #69 
                 - It boggles my mind too  GirlinContempt   Feb-13-07 08:49 AM   #70 
                 - exploit  seabeyond   Feb-13-07 08:56 AM   #72 
                    - Well, it IS selfish  GirlinContempt   Feb-13-07 09:09 AM   #75 
                       - not a knee jerk reaction. for you to characterize it in such a manner is exploiting  seabeyond   Feb-13-07 09:18 AM   #77 
                          - There we go.  GirlinContempt   Feb-13-07 09:23 AM   #78 
                             - but lets be real. not a single post using selfish or exploit is doing it  seabeyond   Feb-13-07 09:28 AM   #82 
                                - The OP was referencing a post  GirlinContempt   Feb-13-07 09:34 AM   #83 
                                   - fine. i was talking coca cola. now you talk about op. then tell  seabeyond   Feb-13-07 09:39 AM   #85 
                                      - You said:  GirlinContempt   Feb-13-07 11:14 AM   #93 
                                         - it is the conclusions being drawn that there is an  seabeyond   Feb-13-07 11:31 AM   #95 
                                            - It's not a matter of equality  GirlinContempt   Feb-13-07 11:38 AM   #98 
                                            - so???? n/t  seabeyond   Feb-13-07 11:58 AM   #105 
                                            - So, you're arguing about equality  GirlinContempt   Feb-13-07 12:00 PM   #106 
                                            - now we are at the point where you are asking me to repeat myself  seabeyond   Feb-13-07 12:06 PM   #111 
                                            - I'm not asking you to repeat yourself  GirlinContempt   Feb-13-07 12:14 PM   #116 
                 - I have no idea where you get the idea this is about victims, except possibly through projecting  greyhound1966   Feb-13-07 09:12 AM   #76 
                    - lets get back to the beginning of the conversation.  seabeyond   Feb-13-07 09:26 AM   #81 
                       - 150 years ago, or whenever it was introduced, they had no idea that  greyhound1966   Feb-13-07 10:21 AM   #86 
                          - you have a couple different issues going at the same time  seabeyond   Feb-13-07 11:45 AM   #100 
                             - I think if we were discussing this in a more communicative medium,  greyhound1966   Feb-13-07 01:04 PM   #133 
        - Who knew? You thought you were working for a company that made soda  rinsd   Feb-13-07 12:23 PM   #122 
           - truly  seabeyond   Feb-13-07 01:01 PM   #131 
              - I don't think it's very reflective of the Democratic Party...  Hippo_Tron   Feb-13-07 03:10 PM   #153 
                 - i hope so  seabeyond   Feb-13-07 04:33 PM   #162 
  - The irony of things is that large corporations  Nikia   Feb-12-07 10:03 PM   #43 
  - Right, but what percentage of their profits are they actually paying their employees?  porphyrian   Feb-12-07 10:07 PM   #45 
  - Small business owners can often suck ass tremendously  JVS   Feb-12-07 10:24 PM   #52 
  - I'm generalizing, but anyone who's worked for a businessman from the Mediterranean knows this.  porphyrian   Feb-12-07 10:27 PM   #54 
  - do you know how much theft there is from employees.  seabeyond   Feb-13-07 09:07 AM   #73 
  - The good one's, defined by several examples in this thread as those  greyhound1966   Feb-13-07 09:23 AM   #79 
     - I agree. Corporatism is a proven failure for the vast majority.  porphyrian   Feb-13-07 10:25 AM   #87 
        - I agree that capitalism has its place, but as other, mostly European, countries  greyhound1966   Feb-13-07 10:54 AM   #89 
  - Oh God No, Not Be A Friggin Long Shot. Course, You're Sure To Get The Melodramatic Replies That Say  OPERATIONMINDCRIME   Feb-12-07 08:26 PM   #11 
  - Here is a definition of exploitation  manic expression   Feb-12-07 08:32 PM   #13 
  - I'm afraid that I'm NOT "interested in the Marxist viewpoint." Not even faintly.  Redstone   Feb-12-07 09:23 PM   #27 
  - And how long do you expect capitalism to last?  rug   Feb-12-07 09:56 PM   #40 
  - I posted it because others are probably interested  manic expression   Feb-12-07 11:35 PM   #61 
  - While surplus-value is nonsense  Unvanguard   Feb-13-07 06:14 PM   #170 
  - I think that, generally speaking,  gollygee   Feb-12-07 08:37 PM   #15 
  - Absolutely not  tammywammy   Feb-12-07 08:38 PM   #16 
  - So your peonage is acceptable because you are comfortable?  greyhound1966   Feb-12-07 09:02 PM   #23 
     - Just HAVE to be hostile, don't you? Got an agenda here, maybe? Someone is happy,  Redstone   Feb-12-07 09:29 PM   #29 
     - I don't know what you are raving about but, yes I have started and run my own  greyhound1966   Feb-13-07 12:43 AM   #65 
     - "My own pursuit of the corporate dream?" HAHAHAHA. I work for MYSELF!  Redstone   Feb-13-07 07:10 PM   #178 
     - It's a legitimate question.  otherlander   Feb-13-07 07:34 PM   #184 
     - I do not know about the poster's employer  Nikia   Feb-12-07 10:10 PM   #47 
        - That doesn't mean the employees aren't exploited  manic expression   Feb-13-07 12:17 AM   #63 
        - That is good to hear. In my businesses, I used a different approach  greyhound1966   Feb-13-07 12:52 AM   #66 
  - All business owners? Not consciously, but see this toon, posted by Redqueen,  greyhound1966   Feb-12-07 08:49 PM   #20 
  - by definition, any capitalist enterprise exploits its workers  leftofthedial   Feb-12-07 08:53 PM   #21 
  - And your problem with that is what, exactly?  Redstone   Feb-12-07 09:31 PM   #30 
  - longer than I have time to post at the moment, but  leftofthedial   Feb-12-07 09:45 PM   #33 
     - I was not being hostile, OK? Just want you to know that, because this is a subject  Redstone   Feb-12-07 09:57 PM   #41 
        - you got it!  leftofthedial   Feb-12-07 10:00 PM   #42 
           - Deadlines...that, I understand. Go get 'em.  Redstone   Feb-12-07 10:06 PM   #44 
  - marxist tripe  endarkenment   Feb-13-07 01:18 PM   #137 
     - One opinion  manic expression   Feb-13-07 03:30 PM   #155 
        - The cooperative exists externally as what you  endarkenment   Feb-13-07 04:19 PM   #160 
           - Cuba is a fine example  manic expression   Feb-13-07 06:13 PM   #169 
  - It's like a relationship between a buyer and a seller.  XemaSab   Feb-12-07 09:05 PM   #24 
  - yes  JVS   Feb-12-07 09:16 PM   #25 
  - Well, to be technical...  Katherine Brengle   Feb-12-07 09:25 PM   #28 
  - "What is the nature of a thing?"  mitchum   Feb-12-07 09:34 PM   #31 
  - I think you're making the mistake  GirlinContempt   Feb-12-07 09:55 PM   #38 
  - Doesn't the word exploitation imply there is some kind of unfairness?  Nikia   Feb-12-07 10:14 PM   #48 
     - Exploitation does not necessarily imply unfairness  GirlinContempt   Feb-12-07 10:18 PM   #49 
        - Without Exploitation, Resource-Gathering Would Be Pointless  Crisco   Feb-13-07 09:07 AM   #74 
           - Employers don't convince people to contribute their labor  manic expression   Feb-13-07 12:22 PM   #121 
              - You're Not Taking Freelancers and Other Self-Employed Into Account  Crisco   Feb-13-07 02:27 PM   #148 
                 - Are you claiming  manic expression   Feb-13-07 03:20 PM   #154 
  - It's inherent in the relationship  Will Robinson   Feb-12-07 09:56 PM   #39 
  - If a company makes a profit, they are exploiting  MSchreader   Feb-13-07 12:19 AM   #64 
  - ummm...don't "bosses" work too?  onenote   Feb-13-07 12:04 PM   #110 
     - They're "deciders"...  MSchreader   Feb-13-07 03:41 PM   #157 
  - Workers benefit from business owners too  gravity   Feb-13-07 10:54 AM   #88 
  - No matter how much competition there is for an employee  GirlinContempt   Feb-13-07 11:20 AM   #94 
     - Both parties benefit  gravity   Feb-13-07 11:34 AM   #96 
     - That wasn't my point.  GirlinContempt   Feb-13-07 11:37 AM   #97 
        - The employee sells their labor at market value  gravity   Feb-13-07 12:10 PM   #114 
        - What?  GirlinContempt   Feb-13-07 12:17 PM   #117 
        - how do you figure its less than market value  onenote   Feb-13-07 12:27 PM   #123 
           - So, your argument is  GirlinContempt   Feb-13-07 12:32 PM   #125 
           - The market value is what someone is willing to pay  gravity   Feb-13-07 12:37 PM   #127 
     - I'm not so clear that that's always the case...  GOTV   Feb-13-07 11:43 AM   #99 
        - What?!  GirlinContempt   Feb-13-07 11:53 AM   #103 
           - Simple  GOTV   Feb-13-07 12:01 PM   #108 
              - Have you ever been in business?  GirlinContempt   Feb-13-07 12:09 PM   #113 
                 - A business would fail  gravity   Feb-13-07 12:18 PM   #118 
                 - Exactly.  GirlinContempt   Feb-13-07 12:19 PM   #119 
                 - But, could still succeed...  GOTV   Feb-13-07 12:52 PM   #129 
                 - A product is worth what people are willing to pay  GOTV   Feb-13-07 12:37 PM   #126 
                 - Ok, you're right.  GirlinContempt   Feb-13-07 10:35 PM   #196 
                    - Ok, we can agree that it's rare but possible, now to answer your questions  GOTV   Feb-15-07 12:34 PM   #199 
                 - In many companies, executive officers play the role of Moe  Telly Savalas   Feb-13-07 09:19 PM   #191 
  - Exploited? Yes Taken Advantage of ? No  Yavin4   Feb-13-07 10:55 AM   #90 
  - Am I being expoited or am I exploiting?  GOTV   Feb-13-07 11:07 AM   #91 
  - You Are Being Exploited, But You Are Comfortable With The Deal  Yavin4   Feb-13-07 11:51 AM   #101 
     - Why am I not also the exploiter?....  GOTV   Feb-13-07 12:03 PM   #109 
        - Because They're Making More From Your Labor Than You Are  Yavin4   Feb-13-07 12:09 PM   #112 
           - Ok, I see how you make the determination, but I'm not sure it's true in my case...  GOTV   Feb-13-07 12:21 PM   #120 
              - The Product That You Make And Sell Is An Accumulation of All Labor  Yavin4   Feb-13-07 01:06 PM   #134 
  - What about those workers that had a pension and now find that "our"  greyhound1966   Feb-13-07 11:10 AM   #92 
  - That's a Different Scenario  Yavin4   Feb-13-07 11:52 AM   #102 
  - I would say practically all workers taken advantage of  manic expression   Feb-13-07 12:12 PM   #115 
     - People may be using my labor, but am I not also using theirs? ....  GOTV   Feb-13-07 12:44 PM   #128 
     - What are you using it for?  manic expression   Feb-13-07 12:53 PM   #130 
        - To do things that are required, but that I don't want to do...  GOTV   Feb-13-07 01:04 PM   #132 
           - OK  manic expression   Feb-13-07 01:17 PM   #136 
              - Hopefully, I can get back to this later....  GOTV   Feb-13-07 01:37 PM   #141 
              - Exploitation  manic expression   Feb-13-07 02:59 PM   #150 
                 - This just doesn't seem right to me....  GOTV   Feb-15-07 12:19 PM   #198 
              - Everyone must be exploiting everyone then  gravity   Feb-13-07 01:37 PM   #142 
                 - Workers are exploited  manic expression   Feb-13-07 03:10 PM   #152 
                    - In your view...  gravity   Feb-13-07 08:36 PM   #188 
                       - Let's look at the picture  manic expression   Feb-13-07 08:42 PM   #189 
                          - The whole is greater than the sum of its parts  gravity   Feb-13-07 09:17 PM   #190 
                             - The parts which work  manic expression   Feb-13-07 09:25 PM   #192 
     - You're Ignoring Other Forms of Exploitation, No?  Yavin4   Feb-13-07 01:11 PM   #135 
        - Not in the same way  manic expression   Feb-13-07 01:23 PM   #138 
        - Rebuttal  Yavin4   Feb-13-07 01:36 PM   #139 
           - Exploitation refers to labor  manic expression   Feb-13-07 03:04 PM   #151 
        - from my conversation above. this is what i conclude. all co., employees,  seabeyond   Feb-13-07 01:38 PM   #143 
           - Exactly  Yavin4   Feb-13-07 01:45 PM   #144 
              - whose to say it is only monetary. a parent is exploited by their childrenr  seabeyond   Feb-13-07 01:48 PM   #145 
  - No. I've been a worker and an owner. Both have good/bad points.  uppityperson   Feb-13-07 12:30 PM   #124 
  - Take my son-in-law, please...  Skidmore   Feb-13-07 01:37 PM   #140 
  - The Concept of Exploitation Is Neutral  Yavin4   Feb-13-07 02:00 PM   #146 
     - That exploitation is a neutral concept is one of those myths  Skidmore   Feb-13-07 03:41 PM   #156 
  - "A difficulty in writing about corporations...  stillcool47   Feb-13-07 02:16 PM   #147 
  - In the words of Big Bill Haywood...  davekriss   Feb-13-07 02:55 PM   #149 
  - Yes, all PRIVATELY OWNED AND OPERATED enterprises EXPLOIT workers  Selatius   Feb-13-07 04:03 PM   #159 
  - Which Definition Of Exploit Is Being Referenced?  OPERATIONMINDCRIME   Feb-13-07 04:26 PM   #161 
     - I was mainly answering his second question, which was...  Selatius   Feb-13-07 04:37 PM   #163 
        - So You're Using An Innocent Definition Of Exploitation Then, Making It Sound Negative.  OPERATIONMINDCRIME   Feb-13-07 04:46 PM   #164 
           - Yes, using that definition, the answer to your question is affirmative. The statement is...  Selatius   Feb-13-07 05:22 PM   #165 
           - Just For The Record,  OPERATIONMINDCRIME   Feb-13-07 07:14 PM   #179 
              - Dude  GirlinContempt   Feb-13-07 10:14 PM   #194 
                 - Dude, No One Said Otherwise. n/t  OPERATIONMINDCRIME   Feb-13-07 10:17 PM   #195 
                    - Sorry  GirlinContempt   Feb-13-07 10:36 PM   #197 
           - The 'innocent' can still be negative  GirlinContempt   Feb-13-07 06:44 PM   #174 
  - More or less, yes, but this is built in to the structure of a modern economy  Unvanguard   Feb-13-07 05:29 PM   #166 
  - I know of one business that  FlaGranny   Feb-13-07 05:36 PM   #167 
 

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