| 33. longer than I have time to post at the moment, but |
|
I wasn't stating that I have a problem. Just answering the question in the OP.
|
| -Do all business owners (or corporations) exploit workers? What would you consider exploitation? |
Nikia |
Feb-12-07 06:57 PM |
#0 |
 -
It's making profits off disrupting their lives. |
Heaven and Earth |
Feb-12-07 07:09 PM |
#1 |
| -
No, they don't. And anyone who says "Yes, all of them do" is full of crap. |
Redstone |
Feb-12-07 07:11 PM |
#2 |
 -
A few things |
manic expression |
Feb-12-07 08:22 PM |
#9 |
 -
A few replies: |
Redstone |
Feb-12-07 08:38 PM |
#17 |
| -
OK |
manic expression |
Feb-12-07 08:46 PM |
#19 |
| -
It doesn't speak a damn thing that the company has been bought; it was sold because |
Redstone |
Feb-12-07 09:00 PM |
#22 |
| -
It was basically inevitable in a market economy |
manic expression |
Feb-12-07 11:27 PM |
#59 |
| -
You were fortunate to work for that company. |
raccoon |
Feb-13-07 08:54 AM |
#71 |
| -
I'll fight with you. |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-12-07 09:52 PM |
#35 |
| -
When you say "exploit" does it mean the same as when other's say "exploit"? |
GOTV |
Feb-13-07 09:25 AM |
#80 |
| -
Exploit is morally neutral |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-13-07 09:39 AM |
#84 |
| -
Treating someone with disrespect because you know you can always |
The Backlash Cometh |
Feb-12-07 07:12 PM |
#3 |
| -
Not all businesses exploit workers. Exploitation would involve paying |
muntrv |
Feb-12-07 07:17 PM |
#4 |
| -
False. |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-12-07 09:53 PM |
#36 |
| -
My union prevents me from being exploited. |
MrSlayer |
Feb-12-07 07:56 PM |
#5 |
| -
False. |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-12-07 09:53 PM |
#37 |
| -
Don't explain your point or anything. |
MrSlayer |
Feb-12-07 10:28 PM |
#55 |
| -
If the company you work for |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-12-07 10:32 PM |
#58 |
| -
I disagree. I am fairly compensated. |
MrSlayer |
Feb-12-07 11:35 PM |
#60 |
| -
Exploitation is not measured purely by compensation |
manic expression |
Feb-12-07 11:39 PM |
#62 |
| -
"Make less than you produce" |
Unvanguard |
Feb-13-07 05:50 PM |
#168 |
| -
Technology aids and improves production |
manic expression |
Feb-13-07 06:24 PM |
#171 |
| -
Well, the typical argument |
Unvanguard |
Feb-13-07 06:38 PM |
#172 |
| -
OK |
manic expression |
Feb-13-07 06:42 PM |
#173 |
| -
So? |
Unvanguard |
Feb-13-07 06:48 PM |
#175 |
| -
This shows that it is labor |
manic expression |
Feb-13-07 06:52 PM |
#176 |
| -
Yes, other workers did. |
Unvanguard |
Feb-13-07 07:09 PM |
#177 |
| -
Yes |
manic expression |
Feb-13-07 07:15 PM |
#180 |
| -
Indeed - and I responded to that point. |
Unvanguard |
Feb-13-07 07:22 PM |
#182 |
| -
Property is theft anyway |
manic expression |
Feb-13-07 07:28 PM |
#183 |
| -
Actually, I agree with everything you said there. |
Unvanguard |
Feb-13-07 07:38 PM |
#185 |
| -
That's good to hear |
manic expression |
Feb-13-07 07:43 PM |
#186 |
| -
Bakunin and Kropotkin, to my knowledge, accepted surplus-value. |
Unvanguard |
Feb-13-07 07:59 PM |
#187 |
| -
As manic expression said |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-13-07 07:45 AM |
#67 |
| -
so does that mean management is also being exploited |
onenote |
Feb-13-07 11:55 AM |
#104 |
| -
Yes. |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-13-07 12:01 PM |
#107 |
| -
So... |
otherlander |
Feb-13-07 07:19 PM |
#181 |
| -
Yes and no. |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-13-07 10:06 PM |
#193 |
| -
Examples I saw when I was working temp |
Lydia Leftcoast |
Feb-12-07 08:15 PM |
#6 |
| -
I think workers can be more easily exploited when they feel that they don't have a choice |
Nikia |
Feb-12-07 10:21 PM |
#50 |
| -
Yes |
manic expression |
Feb-12-07 08:20 PM |
#7 |
| -
Such is the nature of unfettered capitalism |
Zodiak Ironfist |
Feb-13-07 03:45 PM |
#158 |
| -
Business owners, not necessarily. Corporations, yes. |
porphyrian |
Feb-12-07 08:20 PM |
#8 |
| -
True to an extent |
manic expression |
Feb-12-07 08:26 PM |
#10 |
| -
In an environment where it's profitable to do so or without worker protections, yes. |
porphyrian |
Feb-12-07 08:29 PM |
#12 |
| -
That is an environment that naturally takes hold |
manic expression |
Feb-12-07 08:34 PM |
#14 |
| -
That, right there, beng the reason I've never worked for a large corporation. |
Redstone |
Feb-12-07 08:44 PM |
#18 |
| -
Heh, right. - n/t |
porphyrian |
Feb-12-07 09:22 PM |
#26 |
| -
best job i had was with coca cola. best insurance and other benefits |
seabeyond |
Feb-12-07 09:41 PM |
#32 |
| -
Right, but what is the impact of soda-related diabetes they're directly responsible for worldwide? |
porphyrian |
Feb-12-07 09:47 PM |
#34 |
| -
personal responsiblity. a person have diabetes and shouldnt drink it |
seabeyond |
Feb-12-07 10:09 PM |
#46 |
| -
No, I'm saying their product has caused an exponential increase in diabeties among... |
porphyrian |
Feb-12-07 10:22 PM |
#51 |
| -
no they are not responsible. the person that abuse the product and all sugars |
seabeyond |
Feb-12-07 10:26 PM |
#53 |
| -
Blah, blah, blah. |
porphyrian |
Feb-12-07 10:28 PM |
#56 |
| -
with you? wink. n/t |
seabeyond |
Feb-12-07 10:31 PM |
#57 |
| -
So the manufacturer of heroin is not in any way responsible for the ill effects that his |
greyhound1966 |
Feb-13-07 08:25 AM |
#68 |
| -
i dont agree with you. i dont agree we are all victims. i dont agree we are all powerless |
seabeyond |
Feb-13-07 08:37 AM |
#69 |
| -
It boggles my mind too |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-13-07 08:49 AM |
#70 |
| -
exploit |
seabeyond |
Feb-13-07 08:56 AM |
#72 |
| -
Well, it IS selfish |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-13-07 09:09 AM |
#75 |
| -
not a knee jerk reaction. for you to characterize it in such a manner is exploiting |
seabeyond |
Feb-13-07 09:18 AM |
#77 |
| -
There we go. |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-13-07 09:23 AM |
#78 |
| -
but lets be real. not a single post using selfish or exploit is doing it |
seabeyond |
Feb-13-07 09:28 AM |
#82 |
| -
The OP was referencing a post |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-13-07 09:34 AM |
#83 |
| -
fine. i was talking coca cola. now you talk about op. then tell |
seabeyond |
Feb-13-07 09:39 AM |
#85 |
| -
You said: |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-13-07 11:14 AM |
#93 |
| -
it is the conclusions being drawn that there is an |
seabeyond |
Feb-13-07 11:31 AM |
#95 |
| -
It's not a matter of equality |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-13-07 11:38 AM |
#98 |
| -
so???? n/t |
seabeyond |
Feb-13-07 11:58 AM |
#105 |
| -
So, you're arguing about equality |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-13-07 12:00 PM |
#106 |
| -
now we are at the point where you are asking me to repeat myself |
seabeyond |
Feb-13-07 12:06 PM |
#111 |
| -
I'm not asking you to repeat yourself |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-13-07 12:14 PM |
#116 |
| -
I have no idea where you get the idea this is about victims, except possibly through projecting |
greyhound1966 |
Feb-13-07 09:12 AM |
#76 |
| -
lets get back to the beginning of the conversation. |
seabeyond |
Feb-13-07 09:26 AM |
#81 |
| -
150 years ago, or whenever it was introduced, they had no idea that |
greyhound1966 |
Feb-13-07 10:21 AM |
#86 |
| -
you have a couple different issues going at the same time |
seabeyond |
Feb-13-07 11:45 AM |
#100 |
| -
I think if we were discussing this in a more communicative medium, |
greyhound1966 |
Feb-13-07 01:04 PM |
#133 |
| -
Who knew? You thought you were working for a company that made soda |
rinsd |
Feb-13-07 12:23 PM |
#122 |
| -
truly |
seabeyond |
Feb-13-07 01:01 PM |
#131 |
| -
I don't think it's very reflective of the Democratic Party... |
Hippo_Tron |
Feb-13-07 03:10 PM |
#153 |
| -
i hope so |
seabeyond |
Feb-13-07 04:33 PM |
#162 |
| -
The irony of things is that large corporations |
Nikia |
Feb-12-07 10:03 PM |
#43 |
| -
Right, but what percentage of their profits are they actually paying their employees? |
porphyrian |
Feb-12-07 10:07 PM |
#45 |
| -
Small business owners can often suck ass tremendously |
JVS |
Feb-12-07 10:24 PM |
#52 |
| -
I'm generalizing, but anyone who's worked for a businessman from the Mediterranean knows this. |
porphyrian |
Feb-12-07 10:27 PM |
#54 |
| -
do you know how much theft there is from employees. |
seabeyond |
Feb-13-07 09:07 AM |
#73 |
| -
The good one's, defined by several examples in this thread as those |
greyhound1966 |
Feb-13-07 09:23 AM |
#79 |
| -
I agree. Corporatism is a proven failure for the vast majority. |
porphyrian |
Feb-13-07 10:25 AM |
#87 |
| -
I agree that capitalism has its place, but as other, mostly European, countries |
greyhound1966 |
Feb-13-07 10:54 AM |
#89 |
| -
Oh God No, Not Be A Friggin Long Shot. Course, You're Sure To Get The Melodramatic Replies That Say |
OPERATIONMINDCRIME |
Feb-12-07 08:26 PM |
#11 |
| -
Here is a definition of exploitation |
manic expression |
Feb-12-07 08:32 PM |
#13 |
| -
I'm afraid that I'm NOT "interested in the Marxist viewpoint." Not even faintly. |
Redstone |
Feb-12-07 09:23 PM |
#27 |
| -
And how long do you expect capitalism to last? |
rug |
Feb-12-07 09:56 PM |
#40 |
| -
I posted it because others are probably interested |
manic expression |
Feb-12-07 11:35 PM |
#61 |
| -
While surplus-value is nonsense |
Unvanguard |
Feb-13-07 06:14 PM |
#170 |
| -
I think that, generally speaking, |
gollygee |
Feb-12-07 08:37 PM |
#15 |
| -
Absolutely not |
tammywammy |
Feb-12-07 08:38 PM |
#16 |
| -
So your peonage is acceptable because you are comfortable? |
greyhound1966 |
Feb-12-07 09:02 PM |
#23 |
| -
Just HAVE to be hostile, don't you? Got an agenda here, maybe? Someone is happy, |
Redstone |
Feb-12-07 09:29 PM |
#29 |
| -
I don't know what you are raving about but, yes I have started and run my own |
greyhound1966 |
Feb-13-07 12:43 AM |
#65 |
| -
"My own pursuit of the corporate dream?" HAHAHAHA. I work for MYSELF! |
Redstone |
Feb-13-07 07:10 PM |
#178 |
| -
It's a legitimate question. |
otherlander |
Feb-13-07 07:34 PM |
#184 |
| -
I do not know about the poster's employer |
Nikia |
Feb-12-07 10:10 PM |
#47 |
| -
That doesn't mean the employees aren't exploited |
manic expression |
Feb-13-07 12:17 AM |
#63 |
| -
That is good to hear. In my businesses, I used a different approach |
greyhound1966 |
Feb-13-07 12:52 AM |
#66 |
| -
All business owners? Not consciously, but see this toon, posted by Redqueen, |
greyhound1966 |
Feb-12-07 08:49 PM |
#20 |
| -
by definition, any capitalist enterprise exploits its workers |
leftofthedial |
Feb-12-07 08:53 PM |
#21 |
| -
And your problem with that is what, exactly? |
Redstone |
Feb-12-07 09:31 PM |
#30 |
| -
longer than I have time to post at the moment, but |
leftofthedial |
Feb-12-07 09:45 PM |
#33 |
| -
I was not being hostile, OK? Just want you to know that, because this is a subject |
Redstone |
Feb-12-07 09:57 PM |
#41 |
| -
you got it! |
leftofthedial |
Feb-12-07 10:00 PM |
#42 |
| -
Deadlines...that, I understand. Go get 'em. |
Redstone |
Feb-12-07 10:06 PM |
#44 |
| -
marxist tripe |
endarkenment |
Feb-13-07 01:18 PM |
#137 |
| -
One opinion |
manic expression |
Feb-13-07 03:30 PM |
#155 |
| -
The cooperative exists externally as what you |
endarkenment |
Feb-13-07 04:19 PM |
#160 |
| -
Cuba is a fine example |
manic expression |
Feb-13-07 06:13 PM |
#169 |
| -
It's like a relationship between a buyer and a seller. |
XemaSab |
Feb-12-07 09:05 PM |
#24 |
| -
yes |
JVS |
Feb-12-07 09:16 PM |
#25 |
| -
Well, to be technical... |
Katherine Brengle |
Feb-12-07 09:25 PM |
#28 |
| -
"What is the nature of a thing?" |
mitchum |
Feb-12-07 09:34 PM |
#31 |
| -
I think you're making the mistake |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-12-07 09:55 PM |
#38 |
| -
Doesn't the word exploitation imply there is some kind of unfairness? |
Nikia |
Feb-12-07 10:14 PM |
#48 |
| -
Exploitation does not necessarily imply unfairness |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-12-07 10:18 PM |
#49 |
| -
Without Exploitation, Resource-Gathering Would Be Pointless |
Crisco |
Feb-13-07 09:07 AM |
#74 |
| -
Employers don't convince people to contribute their labor |
manic expression |
Feb-13-07 12:22 PM |
#121 |
| -
You're Not Taking Freelancers and Other Self-Employed Into Account |
Crisco |
Feb-13-07 02:27 PM |
#148 |
| -
Are you claiming |
manic expression |
Feb-13-07 03:20 PM |
#154 |
| -
It's inherent in the relationship |
Will Robinson |
Feb-12-07 09:56 PM |
#39 |
| -
If a company makes a profit, they are exploiting |
MSchreader |
Feb-13-07 12:19 AM |
#64 |
| -
ummm...don't "bosses" work too? |
onenote |
Feb-13-07 12:04 PM |
#110 |
| -
They're "deciders"... |
MSchreader |
Feb-13-07 03:41 PM |
#157 |
| -
Workers benefit from business owners too |
gravity |
Feb-13-07 10:54 AM |
#88 |
| -
No matter how much competition there is for an employee |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-13-07 11:20 AM |
#94 |
| -
Both parties benefit |
gravity |
Feb-13-07 11:34 AM |
#96 |
| -
That wasn't my point. |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-13-07 11:37 AM |
#97 |
| -
The employee sells their labor at market value |
gravity |
Feb-13-07 12:10 PM |
#114 |
| -
What? |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-13-07 12:17 PM |
#117 |
| -
how do you figure its less than market value |
onenote |
Feb-13-07 12:27 PM |
#123 |
| -
So, your argument is |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-13-07 12:32 PM |
#125 |
| -
The market value is what someone is willing to pay |
gravity |
Feb-13-07 12:37 PM |
#127 |
| -
I'm not so clear that that's always the case... |
GOTV |
Feb-13-07 11:43 AM |
#99 |
| -
What?! |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-13-07 11:53 AM |
#103 |
| -
Simple |
GOTV |
Feb-13-07 12:01 PM |
#108 |
| -
Have you ever been in business? |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-13-07 12:09 PM |
#113 |
| -
A business would fail |
gravity |
Feb-13-07 12:18 PM |
#118 |
| -
Exactly. |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-13-07 12:19 PM |
#119 |
| -
But, could still succeed... |
GOTV |
Feb-13-07 12:52 PM |
#129 |
| -
A product is worth what people are willing to pay |
GOTV |
Feb-13-07 12:37 PM |
#126 |
| -
Ok, you're right. |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-13-07 10:35 PM |
#196 |
| -
Ok, we can agree that it's rare but possible, now to answer your questions |
GOTV |
Feb-15-07 12:34 PM |
#199 |
| -
In many companies, executive officers play the role of Moe |
Telly Savalas |
Feb-13-07 09:19 PM |
#191 |
| -
Exploited? Yes Taken Advantage of ? No |
Yavin4 |
Feb-13-07 10:55 AM |
#90 |
| -
Am I being expoited or am I exploiting? |
GOTV |
Feb-13-07 11:07 AM |
#91 |
| -
You Are Being Exploited, But You Are Comfortable With The Deal |
Yavin4 |
Feb-13-07 11:51 AM |
#101 |
| -
Why am I not also the exploiter?.... |
GOTV |
Feb-13-07 12:03 PM |
#109 |
| -
Because They're Making More From Your Labor Than You Are |
Yavin4 |
Feb-13-07 12:09 PM |
#112 |
| -
Ok, I see how you make the determination, but I'm not sure it's true in my case... |
GOTV |
Feb-13-07 12:21 PM |
#120 |
| -
The Product That You Make And Sell Is An Accumulation of All Labor |
Yavin4 |
Feb-13-07 01:06 PM |
#134 |
| -
What about those workers that had a pension and now find that "our" |
greyhound1966 |
Feb-13-07 11:10 AM |
#92 |
| -
That's a Different Scenario |
Yavin4 |
Feb-13-07 11:52 AM |
#102 |
| -
I would say practically all workers taken advantage of |
manic expression |
Feb-13-07 12:12 PM |
#115 |
| -
People may be using my labor, but am I not also using theirs? .... |
GOTV |
Feb-13-07 12:44 PM |
#128 |
| -
What are you using it for? |
manic expression |
Feb-13-07 12:53 PM |
#130 |
| -
To do things that are required, but that I don't want to do... |
GOTV |
Feb-13-07 01:04 PM |
#132 |
| -
OK |
manic expression |
Feb-13-07 01:17 PM |
#136 |
| -
Hopefully, I can get back to this later.... |
GOTV |
Feb-13-07 01:37 PM |
#141 |
| -
Exploitation |
manic expression |
Feb-13-07 02:59 PM |
#150 |
| -
This just doesn't seem right to me.... |
GOTV |
Feb-15-07 12:19 PM |
#198 |
| -
Everyone must be exploiting everyone then |
gravity |
Feb-13-07 01:37 PM |
#142 |
| -
Workers are exploited |
manic expression |
Feb-13-07 03:10 PM |
#152 |
| -
In your view... |
gravity |
Feb-13-07 08:36 PM |
#188 |
| -
Let's look at the picture |
manic expression |
Feb-13-07 08:42 PM |
#189 |
| -
The whole is greater than the sum of its parts |
gravity |
Feb-13-07 09:17 PM |
#190 |
| -
The parts which work |
manic expression |
Feb-13-07 09:25 PM |
#192 |
| -
You're Ignoring Other Forms of Exploitation, No? |
Yavin4 |
Feb-13-07 01:11 PM |
#135 |
| -
Not in the same way |
manic expression |
Feb-13-07 01:23 PM |
#138 |
| -
Rebuttal |
Yavin4 |
Feb-13-07 01:36 PM |
#139 |
| -
Exploitation refers to labor |
manic expression |
Feb-13-07 03:04 PM |
#151 |
| -
from my conversation above. this is what i conclude. all co., employees, |
seabeyond |
Feb-13-07 01:38 PM |
#143 |
| -
Exactly |
Yavin4 |
Feb-13-07 01:45 PM |
#144 |
| -
whose to say it is only monetary. a parent is exploited by their childrenr |
seabeyond |
Feb-13-07 01:48 PM |
#145 |
| -
No. I've been a worker and an owner. Both have good/bad points. |
uppityperson |
Feb-13-07 12:30 PM |
#124 |
| -
Take my son-in-law, please... |
Skidmore |
Feb-13-07 01:37 PM |
#140 |
| -
The Concept of Exploitation Is Neutral |
Yavin4 |
Feb-13-07 02:00 PM |
#146 |
| -
That exploitation is a neutral concept is one of those myths |
Skidmore |
Feb-13-07 03:41 PM |
#156 |
| -
"A difficulty in writing about corporations... |
stillcool47 |
Feb-13-07 02:16 PM |
#147 |
| -
In the words of Big Bill Haywood... |
davekriss |
Feb-13-07 02:55 PM |
#149 |
| -
Yes, all PRIVATELY OWNED AND OPERATED enterprises EXPLOIT workers |
Selatius |
Feb-13-07 04:03 PM |
#159 |
| -
Which Definition Of Exploit Is Being Referenced? |
OPERATIONMINDCRIME |
Feb-13-07 04:26 PM |
#161 |
| -
I was mainly answering his second question, which was... |
Selatius |
Feb-13-07 04:37 PM |
#163 |
| -
So You're Using An Innocent Definition Of Exploitation Then, Making It Sound Negative. |
OPERATIONMINDCRIME |
Feb-13-07 04:46 PM |
#164 |
| -
Yes, using that definition, the answer to your question is affirmative. The statement is... |
Selatius |
Feb-13-07 05:22 PM |
#165 |
| -
Just For The Record, |
OPERATIONMINDCRIME |
Feb-13-07 07:14 PM |
#179 |
| -
Dude |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-13-07 10:14 PM |
#194 |
| -
Dude, No One Said Otherwise. n/t |
OPERATIONMINDCRIME |
Feb-13-07 10:17 PM |
#195 |
| -
Sorry |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-13-07 10:36 PM |
#197 |
| -
The 'innocent' can still be negative |
GirlinContempt |
Feb-13-07 06:44 PM |
#174 |
| -
More or less, yes, but this is built in to the structure of a modern economy |
Unvanguard |
Feb-13-07 05:29 PM |
#166 |
| -
I know of one business that |
FlaGranny |
Feb-13-07 05:36 PM |
#167 |
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