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Reply #14: So you're saying we should surrender and settle for next to nothing [View All]

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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-22-07 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. So you're saying we should surrender and settle for next to nothing
Which is the same thing as settling FOR nothing.

Incrementalism is the path to eternal defeat. The Nineties proved incrementalism was worthless.
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  -Might as well admit it...HRC's health care plan is a surrender to the Right. Ken Burch  Sep-22-07 07:56 PM   #0 
  - "input appropriate dennis kucinich response here"  fenriswolf   Sep-22-07 08:03 PM   #1 
  - Dennis was in my town today. I went  Cleita   Sep-22-07 08:10 PM   #3 
  - I am jealous Cleita.  BushDespiser12   Sep-22-07 10:13 PM   #22 
  - Me like him too. Me suggest that all Kucinich supporters  truedelphi   Sep-23-07 04:05 PM   #82 
  - Non-drinking husband suggest I explain you that  truedelphi   Sep-23-07 04:14 PM   #84 
  - One question. What will happen to the jobs of the people who work for  alfredo   Sep-23-07 05:12 PM   #89 
     - It would be cheaper to give everyone working in the health care  truedelphi   Sep-23-07 06:01 PM   #102 
     - We would have to consider such things. They could get work  alfredo   Sep-23-07 07:24 PM   #111 
        - It's already in the bill  ProudDad   Sep-24-07 02:14 AM   #156 
           - That's good. Most of these people just needed a job. The ones who  alfredo   Sep-24-07 09:56 AM   #164 
     - They could move off-shore with the companies holdings, and  bahrbearian   Sep-23-07 07:21 PM   #109 
     - Seen any buggy-whip makers lately?  liberaltrucker   Sep-23-07 09:11 PM   #133 
     - We have a few here, but they are outnumbered by Ferriers.  alfredo   Sep-23-07 10:22 PM   #137 
     - Every freeper in the world asks that. Why are you asking it?  Cleita   Sep-24-07 03:40 PM   #178 
     - I asked it to spark debate. I wanted to make sure the insurance  alfredo   Sep-24-07 04:23 PM   #180 
     - As previously noted, HR626 makes provision for them, I would just like to add that it is one hell of  greyhound1966   Sep-26-07 12:44 AM   #194 
  - Mandating purchase from predatory corporations is FASCIST heathcare.......  charles t   Sep-22-07 09:45 PM   #16 
  - It is the same bullshit they pulled in states like Ca.  liberation   Sep-23-07 03:29 PM   #72 
  - LOL - Even DK would not agree with the OP's poor analysis of Hillary's plan - The Medicare for all  papau   Sep-23-07 04:05 PM   #83 
     - Doublespeak.  NCevilDUer   Sep-23-07 05:21 PM   #97 
        - details will be written by Congress- the competion with a Like Medicare plan that will at least  papau   Sep-23-07 06:46 PM   #105 
        - As someone from the state of Tennessee who saw the  Clark2008   Sep-24-07 11:25 AM   #170 
        - The devil is in the details. Edward's plan addresses the  Cleita   Sep-24-07 04:25 PM   #181 
        - Thank you  junofeb   Sep-23-07 07:55 PM   #121 
        - I find Hillary's plan and those like it are really Arnold  Cleita   Sep-24-07 04:18 PM   #179 
  - HillaryCare II is Romney Lite  bluestateguy   Sep-22-07 08:07 PM   #2 
  - Actually, it's Arnold Schwarzenegger light. This is the plan  Cleita   Sep-22-07 08:11 PM   #4 
  - Did you read Edward's and Obama's - just wondering why hit on Clinton.  emilyg   Sep-22-07 08:17 PM   #5 
  - not hitting on clinton  fenriswolf   Sep-22-07 08:22 PM   #6 
  - The problem is that none of them (except DK) are proposing health care plans...  kcass1954   Sep-23-07 03:54 PM   #81 
  - Because she is still the one our beloved leaders tell us  Ken Burch   Sep-22-07 08:57 PM   #10 
  - For the record, there plans aren't worth even bothering with either.  Ken Burch   Sep-22-07 09:04 PM   #13 
  - "incrementalism will never work for progressives"  paulk   Sep-22-07 10:02 PM   #19 
  - It's not like the only options are incrementalism or going to the Sierra Maestra.  Ken Burch   Sep-22-07 10:11 PM   #20 
     - all I can say -  paulk   Sep-22-07 10:50 PM   #28 
        - God I hate that phrase "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the way of the good".  Ken Burch   Sep-22-07 10:53 PM   #31 
        - please see post #19  paulk   Sep-23-07 10:54 AM   #47 
        - I don't wish to read the same insult again, so I won't bother with post 19  Ken Burch   Sep-23-07 01:40 PM   #61 
        - What about all those people who could have had health  creeksneakers2   Sep-23-07 05:42 PM   #100 
        - If the media succeed in browbeating the party into nominating that candidate  Ken Burch   Sep-23-07 07:27 PM   #112 
        - Like I said. If Kucinich wins the nomination, Hillary's plan will be moot.  impeachdubya   Sep-23-07 08:53 PM   #129 
        - I suppose if you wanted to sell your car for 5 grand but would take 3 grand--  eridani   Sep-23-07 03:10 AM   #37 
        - If you ask for $5,000 for a $3,000  creeksneakers2   Sep-23-07 05:47 PM   #101 
           - Not if they read the "or best offer" part  eridani   Sep-23-07 06:44 PM   #104 
        - Right..  kenfrequed   Sep-23-07 12:03 PM   #50 
        - Deleted message  Name removed   Sep-23-07 12:45 PM   #54 
  - interesting  HughMoran   Sep-22-07 10:18 PM   #24 
     - Dennis Kucinich is the one with the most complete solution.  Ken Burch   Sep-22-07 10:21 PM   #25 
        - I would prefer Kucinich as well  HughMoran   Sep-22-07 10:43 PM   # 
           - I'm part of no cabal. I'm debating the issues.  Ken Burch   Sep-22-07 10:47 PM   #27 
              - I hear ya  HughMoran   Sep-22-07 11:14 PM   #33 
                 - For no good reason, the media has declared her the frontrunner.  Ken Burch   Sep-22-07 11:23 PM   #34 
                    - Well, I'm not going to vote for her  HughMoran   Sep-22-07 11:28 PM   #35 
                       - Well  kenfrequed   Sep-23-07 12:05 PM   #52 
  - Obama: no mandate, no tax credits  sandnsea   Sep-23-07 03:38 PM   #76 
  - 'Cause hers is the worst of a bad lot (n/t)  ProudDad   Sep-24-07 02:17 AM   #157 
  - I long for the day that insurance companies are OUT of the  tnlefty   Sep-22-07 08:22 PM   #7 
  - For-profit healthcare is the biggest insult to those who need it.  AllyCat   Sep-23-07 02:40 PM   #70 
  - Why just HRC?  frazzled   Sep-22-07 08:22 PM   #8 
  - And that means that Hillary's plan, which is ALREADY Republican  Ken Burch   Sep-22-07 09:00 PM   #11 
  - So you're saying we should surrender and settle for next to nothing  Ken Burch   Sep-22-07 09:05 PM   #14 
  - you need to look at the person  fenriswolf   Sep-22-07 10:01 PM   #18 
     - Hey, I've got an idea  ProudDad   Sep-23-07 12:50 PM   #58 
     - He wasn't bashing Kucinich.  Ken Burch   Sep-23-07 07:14 PM   #107 
        - Yeah, I was having a bad night  ProudDad   Sep-24-07 12:42 AM   #146 
           - happens to the best of us.  Ken Burch   Sep-24-07 01:32 AM   #154 
     - Sorry  ProudDad   Sep-24-07 12:42 AM   #147 
  - How do you know that?  creeksneakers2   Sep-22-07 08:32 PM   #9 
  - I know it because the plan forces people to pay for insurance individually  Ken Burch   Sep-22-07 09:01 PM   #12 
  - People living at or near the poverty level  zeemike   Sep-23-07 05:13 PM   #93 
  - I learned that it is based on a plan offered by the late Sen. John Chafee  Gloria   Sep-22-07 09:28 PM   #15 
  - No it's not. It's just Clinton-hater mendacious up-is-down-ism.  BlooInBloo   Sep-22-07 09:54 PM   #17 
  - If BUSH himself were to get "universal healthcare" passed,....would it be worse than HRC's plan?  charles t   Sep-22-07 10:12 PM   #21 
  - Well, yeah, if you consider that Bush's plan would probably mean  Ken Burch   Sep-22-07 10:14 PM   #23 
  - If he signed HR676  ProudDad   Sep-24-07 12:46 AM   #148 
     - If he doesn't sign it, it might not be because he objects to the bill  Ken Burch   Sep-24-07 11:18 AM   #168 
  - OP is Nonsense. The RW is calling her plan "socialized medicine"  MethuenProgressive   Sep-22-07 10:43 PM   #26 
  - And we all know the rw always  zidzi   Sep-22-07 10:50 PM   #29 
  - The only thing "Socialized" about HillaryCare2...  bvar22   Sep-22-07 11:14 PM   #32 
  - so what is wrong with "socialized medicine" our police & fire dept. are socialized are they not?  madmom   Sep-23-07 08:13 AM   #41 
  - The OP says her plan is surrender to the GOP, but the GOP hates it....  MethuenProgressive   Sep-23-07 08:19 AM   #43 
     - Are you that naive?  lastliberalintexas   Sep-23-07 11:10 AM   #49 
  - Yeah for "giving in to them" they sure aren't too excited about it!  spoony   Sep-23-07 01:44 PM   #62 
     - The RW pundits "Washington Week" this Friday were gloating about how HRC had learned her place  Ken Burch   Sep-23-07 03:31 PM   #73 
  - Will Never Vote For Hillary - Not Even The General election  lostnotforgotten   Sep-22-07 10:53 PM   #30 
  - If she is the best we can do then we get another Republican.  Vincardog   Sep-23-07 12:12 AM   #36 
  - The only way the GOP defeats Clinton is with help from Democrats.  MethuenProgressive   Sep-23-07 07:59 AM   #39 
     - No thanks.  Le Taz Hot   Sep-23-07 08:09 AM   #40 
     - How'd that work out for the Naderites?  MethuenProgressive   Sep-23-07 08:13 AM   #42 
        - I'm not sure.  Le Taz Hot   Sep-23-07 09:16 AM   #45 
        - Self-Delete  ProudDad   Sep-25-07 01:51 AM   #183 
        - You might want to ask both of them  ProudDad   Sep-25-07 01:52 AM   #184 
     - Hillary = Corptocracy - Same As The Present Boss  lostnotforgotten   Sep-23-07 08:28 AM   #44 
     - They don't care. They'll see the world burn before they vote for Clinton...  BlooInBloo   Sep-23-07 01:54 PM   #66 
     - There can never be a good reason for the Dems to choose the most conservative idea possible  Ken Burch   Sep-23-07 03:36 PM   #75 
     - According to Krugman and everyone who doesn't hate Clinton, it's "universal"....  BlooInBloo   Sep-23-07 03:42 PM   #77 
     - If clinton would pull her head out of her corporate  ProudDad   Sep-24-07 02:21 AM   #159 
     - And the way people of  ProudDad   Sep-24-07 02:09 AM   #155 
  - pretty much; and it will delay REAL health care for decades. nt  HardRocker2005   Sep-23-07 04:23 AM   #38 
  - AGAIN!!! (n/t)  ProudDad   Sep-24-07 02:23 AM   #160 
  - HRC....  BlueJac   Sep-23-07 10:15 AM   #46 
  - Thank you! ------ I think so, too.  Totally Committed   Sep-23-07 10:58 AM   #48 
  - Admit it? That indicates  LWolf   Sep-23-07 12:05 PM   #51 
  - Well, you weren't one of her supporters  Ken Burch   Sep-23-07 01:46 PM   #64 
     - Point taken, lol. n/t  LWolf   Sep-23-07 02:56 PM   #71 
  - Bingo  Joanne98   Sep-23-07 12:38 PM   #53 
  - the only healthcare plan that is based in reality  madrchsod   Sep-23-07 12:46 PM   #55 
  - not so  Froward69   Sep-23-07 12:49 PM   #57 
  - I agree with you.  Ken Burch   Sep-23-07 01:49 PM   #65 
  - K&R hillaryCare 2.0 is a cruel bad joke (n/t)  ProudDad   Sep-23-07 12:49 PM   #56 
  - Why?  impeachdubya   Sep-23-07 03:46 PM   #80 
     - They share the same flaws, but THEY aren't the media and lobbyist-chosen frontrunners.  Ken Burch   Sep-23-07 07:32 PM   #113 
        - I'd suspect his unequivocal support for a SPHC system is driving a lot of people to Kucinich.  impeachdubya   Sep-23-07 09:40 PM   #136 
  - it's a repuke plan  leftofthedial   Sep-23-07 12:51 PM   #59 
  - So Obama and Edwards.. Their plans are "repuke plans", too?  impeachdubya   Sep-23-07 05:14 PM   #94 
     - you said it  leftofthedial   Sep-23-07 06:20 PM   #103 
     - Er, the Republicans would prefer to leave shit the way it is.  impeachdubya   Sep-23-07 08:49 PM   #128 
        - I'm a Kucinich supporter as well.  leftofthedial   Sep-23-07 09:12 PM   #134 
           - So let me get this straight: You're comparing Hillary Clinton to the Nazis?  impeachdubya   Sep-23-07 09:38 PM   #135 
              - I did no such thing  leftofthedial   Sep-23-07 10:55 PM   #138 
              - I think we would have been better off in 2004 with Dr. Dean, that's for sure.  impeachdubya   Sep-23-07 11:01 PM   #141 
              - Yyyyuuup!  BlooInBloo   Sep-23-07 10:59 PM   #140 
              - The rule you're speaking of is called "Godwin's Law".  Ken Burch   Sep-23-07 11:44 PM   # 
                 - I think at the very least there's a corollary about the first person to bring up Hitler or Nazis.  impeachdubya   Sep-24-07 02:26 AM   #161 
     - I agree with you on that.  Ken Burch   Sep-23-07 07:34 PM   #114 
        - "and neither of them is too arrogant or paranoid to change."  paulk   Sep-23-07 08:54 PM   #130 
  - Hillary's Plan is the best start so far.  toughboy   Sep-23-07 01:09 PM   #60 
  - Yah - what a fucking idiot and traitor Krugman is for liking Clinton's plan...  BlooInBloo   Sep-23-07 01:46 PM   #63 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Sep-24-07 01:00 AM   #149 
  - I'm amazed that self-styled  ProudDad   Sep-25-07 01:56 AM   #185 
  - Surrender? Hell, she carries water for the right  mitchum   Sep-23-07 01:57 PM   #67 
  - Hillary's plan is wrong on so many levels.  Vinca   Sep-23-07 02:04 PM   #68 
  - Right on, KB! I posted a couple days ago asking for ANY explanation  AllyCat   Sep-23-07 02:35 PM   #69 
  - Its idiocy.  Singular73   Sep-23-07 03:32 PM   #74 
  - Hillary's, Edwards' and Obama's plans are almost identical.  impeachdubya   Sep-23-07 03:45 PM   #79 
     - Hillary's plan has the word "Hillary" in it. Therefore, it's idiocy....  BlooInBloo   Sep-23-07 05:05 PM   #86 
     - If she does something I disagree with, I'm going to say so. If she does something I agree with,  impeachdubya   Sep-23-07 05:10 PM   #88 
        - Yup. The truth takes a backseat to what DUers KNOW... It's very Kuhnian.  BlooInBloo   Sep-23-07 05:12 PM   #91 
           - It's gonna be a mess around here, if she gets the nomination.  impeachdubya   Sep-23-07 05:16 PM   #95 
              - Yup.  BlooInBloo   Sep-23-07 05:16 PM   #96 
     - I haven't heard Edwards or Obama talk about mandatory coverage as a precondition of employment  Hardhead   Sep-24-07 12:01 AM   #145 
     - THEY'RE ALL FUCKED!!!!!! (n/t)  ProudDad   Sep-24-07 01:01 AM   #150 
     - Check upthread  ProudDad   Sep-25-07 01:57 AM   #186 
  - That's not entirely true. Under HRC's plan (I don't know about Edwards' and Obama's, but I hear  impeachdubya   Sep-23-07 03:42 PM   #78 
  - forbidden from denying people coverage for pre-existing conditions.  zeemike   Sep-23-07 05:26 PM   #98 
  - I believe limiting premiums to a percent of income is part of the plan, too.  impeachdubya   Sep-23-07 05:30 PM   #99 
     - It is. It clearly is. DUers don't care - they'd rather make shit up.  BlooInBloo   Sep-23-07 06:46 PM   #106 
     - They'll compromise the premium limit away at the first hurdle.  Ken Burch   Sep-23-07 07:53 PM   #120 
     - another completey subjective opinion  paulk   Sep-23-07 09:03 PM   #131 
        - aka "making shit up".  BlooInBloo   Sep-23-07 10:58 PM   #139 
           - the worst thing about crap like this is that  paulk   Sep-23-07 11:44 PM   #144 
              - Per Krugman and other smarter people, it's very god AND politically doable quickly.  BlooInBloo   Sep-24-07 01:02 AM   #152 
     - More facts about HRC healthcare plan  Moochy   Sep-24-07 01:13 PM   #174 
     - As a Kucinich supporter, I'm aware of the odds my candidate faces  Ken Burch   Sep-23-07 07:19 PM   #108 
     - And that's why I'm voting for Kucinich in the primary. But I'm supporting OUR nominee  impeachdubya   Sep-23-07 08:37 PM   #125 
        - I'll support the nominee. But we have to GET something from the nominee  Ken Burch   Sep-23-07 11:40 PM   #143 
     - Tell me  ProudDad   Sep-25-07 02:00 AM   #187 
  - I'm not criticizing the plan BECAUSE it is HRC's plan  Ken Burch   Sep-23-07 07:24 PM   #110 
  - Thank you. THat's it exactly.  truedelphi   Sep-24-07 10:22 AM   #165 
  - I will bet you $1000  ProudDad   Sep-24-07 01:02 AM   #151 
  - I pay 10K a year for me & my wife now, w/group plan. Fox news wasn't even bitching much about it.  pattmarty   Sep-23-07 05:04 PM   #85 
  - Don't let Fox find out who you are...they think 10k a year isn't ENOUGH for proles like us.  Ken Burch   Sep-23-07 07:51 PM   #119 
  - It's windfall for the insurance industry. And that's all  Echos Myron   Sep-23-07 05:08 PM   #87 
  - Totally right -- HC's plan is a giveaway to the insurance companies.  Emillereid   Sep-23-07 05:12 PM   #90 
  - haven't you heard? She already has the Nom!  leftchick   Sep-23-07 05:13 PM   #92 
  - What do you expect, HC is part of the rightwing of the democratic party.  LeviathanCrumbling   Sep-23-07 07:35 PM   #115 
  - Actually, to be accurate  ProudDad   Sep-25-07 02:03 AM   #188 
     - Thanks dude, you always make me chuckle. n/t  greyhound1966   Sep-26-07 12:54 AM   #195 
  - Let us just ask the question: What is wrong with healthcare in the USA?  nealmhughes   Sep-23-07 07:43 PM   #116 
  - According to the owners of the Democratic Party  ProudDad   Sep-24-07 01:04 AM   #153 
  - Triangulation, where the corporatists, the globalists, and the republics, meet. n/t  greyhound1966   Sep-26-07 12:58 AM   #196 
  - K&R Thanks KB!  snappyturtle   Sep-23-07 07:48 PM   #117 
  - You're welcome, snappy "V"!  Ken Burch   Sep-23-07 07:49 PM   #118 
  - Yawn  cgrindley   Sep-23-07 07:57 PM   #122 
  - wtf is sydney?  Ken Burch   Sep-23-07 08:01 PM   #123 
     - No, I think the thread is typical Clinton bashing  cgrindley   Sep-23-07 08:04 PM   #124 
        - My point isn't to bash the candidate, but to raise serious issues about the plan  Ken Burch   Sep-23-07 11:38 PM   #142 
           - So innocent! And yet somehow NO-ONE spends time bashing Edwards' or Obama's!  BlooInBloo   Sep-24-07 02:20 AM   #158 
              - Okay, we get your point. You support Hillary!  B Calm   Sep-24-07 05:31 AM   #162 
              - We'll get the last laugh, you know, because she's going to win  cgrindley   Sep-24-07 06:46 AM   #163 
              - And You'll get my little dog too! n/t  Moochy   Sep-24-07 01:15 PM   #175 
              - If by "support" you mean "3rd or 4th on my list", then sure....  BlooInBloo   Sep-24-07 11:02 AM   #166 
              - I've mentioned at least twice that Obama and Edwards' plans are similarly flawed  Ken Burch   Sep-24-07 11:16 AM   #167 
                 - It's ok... People who care about the truth have Krugman and others to listen to...  BlooInBloo   Sep-24-07 11:20 AM   #169 
                    - Everything I've said here is the truth.  Ken Burch   Sep-24-07 11:56 AM   #172 
                       - And yet not a word critical of Krugman and others. Not feeling up to it? Wonder why?  BlooInBloo   Sep-24-07 12:51 PM   #173 
                          - From your Avatar, you seem to be pro-union  ProudDad   Sep-25-07 02:11 AM   #189 
                          - Krugman has a right to his view. I have the right to disagree with him.  Ken Burch   Sep-26-07 12:21 AM   #192 
  - Gee, what a surprise...fat stacks of cash to the insurance industry.  Elrond Hubbard   Sep-23-07 08:38 PM   #126 
  - Ken, I wanted to recommend, but I was too late. ...n/t  Just-plain-Kathy   Sep-23-07 08:48 PM   #127 
  - Well, yeah  liberaltrucker   Sep-23-07 09:07 PM   #132 
  - It is an acknowledgment that most Americans who have private insurance will be leery of giving it up  Freddie Stubbs   Sep-24-07 11:47 AM   #171 
  - yup.  lionesspriyanka   Sep-24-07 01:28 PM   #177 
  - It would be so simple  ProudDad   Sep-25-07 02:13 AM   #190 
  - What's worst about HillaryCare is that it won't survive the legislative process.  backscatter712   Sep-24-07 01:28 PM   #176 
     - I don't think Congress will pass it.  Cleita   Sep-24-07 04:46 PM   #182 
     - Yep,  ProudDad   Sep-25-07 02:14 AM   #191 
     - If our next effort at healthcare fails, like you describe  killbotfactory   Sep-26-07 12:35 AM   #193 

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