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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-18-07 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #6
19. Why should we listen to them?
Edited on Sat Aug-18-07 09:13 AM by Time for change
First of all, the fact that many of the thousands of people in the 9/11 truth movement don't agree with each other doesn't mean that much. To discount many of the cogent arguments coming from them because of that reason alone would be like discounting "the theory of evolution" because there are many evolutionary biologists who disagree on the details of evolution. The arguments of the 9/11 truth movement should stand or fall on the merits of their arguments, not on whether or not they all agree with each other. Not every argument needs to be valid in order to demonstrate the likelihood or even proove that the 9/11 attacks didn't happen the way our government would like us to believe.

Nor does the fact that there are websites that allegedly "debunk" the conspiracy theories, in and of itself, say very much. Have you read and studied those websites? Have you read David Ray Griffin's book? I have to admit that I have read only a minute fraction of the website information that supposedly debunks MIHOP or LIHOP. But what I have read I have not found very impressive. For example, one of the websites you site supposedly debunks the idea that the towers could not have fallen as a result of airplanes alone hitting the WTO. They provide very detailed and complex theories on how the towers could have fallen on the basis of an airplane crash alone. I do not have the engineering and physics background necessary to evaluate those theories. However, even if those experts are spot on, so what? So, the towers could have possibly fallen as the result of an airplane crash. That doesn't mean that they did or even that it was remotely likely that they did.

If we want to examine debunking, why not go to those who provided the "official" explanation -- the 9/11 Commission itself. In response to all the criticism of their ridiculously inadequate report, Hamilton and Kean wrote a book which supposedly debunked the debunking of their original report. Their debunking was woefully indadequate -- if a fifth grader handed in an argument like that he should get an F on it. I discuss their ridiculous book in this post:

Anyhow, if you want to argue that the Bush/Cheney version is correct, then please try to explain this:

How super-Flight 77 evaded the most powerful military in world history

Griffin goes into great detail on the inconsistencies and implausibility of the standard CM story regarding each of the hijacked flights, and why our military should have been able to prevent any of the airliners from hitting the WTC buildings or the Pentagon. I will talk here about the story of Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon because that is the most absurd of all the stories surrounding the 9/11 attacks. To do that, Ill: 1) Note the original timeline for that flight, which strongly suggested government complicity; 2) Discuss how NORAD changed the original story to establish their innocence; and 3) Discuss how the 9/11 Commission further changed the story, and what one would have to believe in order to make sense of that story.

The original account of the events surrounding Flight 77
8:20 Leaves Dulles Airport in Washington D.C., headed West.
Sequence of events leading to disappearance of plane:
 8:46 Flight goes significantly off course.
 8:50 Radio contact lost, FAA learns that flight is hijacked.
 8:56 Transponder is turned off.
 8:57 Flight is lost to FAA controllers.
Interval from 8:57 to 9:24 Hmmm, seems like a long time for nothing to be happening
9:24 NORAD gives order to scramble fighter jets for Langley AFB.
9:30 Fighter jets from Langley become airborne.
9:38 Pentagon is struck.

How the original account implicates the North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD), and how NORAD tried to explain the problems away
The original version of events indicates several problems, suggesting gross negligence at best on the part of NORAD, and complicity at worst, for the following reasons:

1) Certainly the FAA would have notified NORAD once they confirmed that the flight was hijacked, if not four minutes earlier, when they first noted the flight having gone off course, as prescribed by standard operating procedures. That would have given our military all the time in the world to protect our capital. NORAD gets around this problem by claiming, incredibly, that they werent notified of Flight 77 until about 9:24.

2) But even if the FAA was totally negligent in its duty to warn NORAD of the hijacking of Flight 77, shouldnt the military have sent up fighter jets anyhow, given that they knew that our country was under attack for almost an hour before the Pentagon was hit? And even if they didnt get a plane up in the air long before they did, shouldnt they have been watching closely and have been able to track Flight 77 heading for Washington D.C. (IF indeed that flight did head for Washington D.C.) long before it hit the Pentagon at 9:38?

3) NORAD claims that it issued an order to scramble fighter jets from Langley AFB immediately after being notified at 9:24. It is supposed to take two and a half minutes for a fighter plane to get to 29,000 feet after receiving a scramble order. Yet, even if NORAD is telling the truth about not being notified until 9:24, it still took six minutes for the fighter planes to become airborne.

4) Why would NORAD issue the scramble order to Langley, which is 130 miles away, when Andrews AFB is only 10 miles away? NORAD explains this away by claiming that there were no fighter jets on alert at Andrews AFB at the time. This claim is incredible, based both on common sense and historical documentation.

5) Even if we assume that there was no choice other than to issue the order to Langley rather than to Andrews AFB, and even if we assume that the fighter planes didnt become airborne until 9:30, they still ought to have arrived in Washington, D.C. within 5 minutes, given a flight speed of 1,500 mph. Yet, according to NORADs account, the fighter jets were still 105 miles away when the Pentagon was struck. The math just doesnt add up.

How the 9/11 Commission took the blame off the military (NORAD), and what youd have to swallow to believe their revisionist account

Thus, there were so many problems with NORADs attempt to rationalize its actions within the framework of the accepted events surrounding Flight 77 that a reasonable person might suspect that NORAD had been given orders from above to stand aside and allow the attack to take place. Here is how the 9/11 Commission explained the situation in a manner so as to let the military off the hook:

1) As being notified of the attack by 9:24 would still have given the military plenty of time to get fighter planes up to defend the capital, the 9/11 Commission claimed that they were not notified by the FAA until 9:34, just four minutes before the attack on the Pentagon took place.

There are several problems with this account. First, it requires us to believe that the FAA personnel were so incompetent on that day that they couldnt follow standard operating procedures which, as far as anyone knows, they had never previously so completely failed at. Second, there is a memo from an FAA employee, Larua Brown, which states that a phone bridge was established between NORAD and FAA within minutes of the first strike, and that the FAA shared information continuously with NORAD about all flights of interest during this teleconference, including Flight 77, as discussed in this NY Times article. And thirdly, Richard Clarke describes another teleconference which included the White House and the FAA, also initiated long before 9:24.

2) As for why the military was not able to track Flight 77 despite not being notified about it by the FAA, the 9/11 Commission explains this by saying that the transponder on the plane was turned off. So if its that easy to make airplanes escape our militarys ability to track them, how did we protect ourselves against the Soviet Union for 44 years?

3) But even assuming that our military knew nothing of the attack until 9:34, the fact that we had fighter planes from Langley up in the air by 9:30 still has to be explained. The 9/11 Commission explains this by saying that NORAD was notified of a phantom plane. This phantom plane was Flight 11, the one that struck the North Tower of the WTC at 8:46. According to this version, someone in the FAA (for which no publicly available evidence exists) notified NORAD that Flight 11 was still in the air and headed toward Washington. Consequently, the order went out to Langley to get fighter planes up into the air and headed towards Baltimore to intercept Flight 11 coming from New York. In other words, despite the fact that there were four hijacked planes reported on 9-11, the only one to which we responded by scrambling fighter planes, according to the 9/11 Commission, was a phantom plane. The absurdity of that notion requires no further comment.

4) But if we had fighter planes up in the air by 9:30, headed towards Baltimore, and since the 9/11 Commission admits at least that the military knew of Flight 77 headed to Washington by 9:34, then why couldnt have those planes been directed to defend the capital? The 9/11 Commission explains this by saying that the lead pilot misunderstood the orders he received and headed east, towards the Atlantic Ocean, instead of north. Therefore, by the time NORAD became aware of the impending attack on the capital, those fighter planes were too far away to respond. Again, we are presented with no evidence to support this view.

Norman Minettas testimony before the 9/11 Commission
Supporting evidence for the theory that orders were given to prohibit any military response to Flight 77 comes from testimony before the 9/11 Commission of Norman Minetta, U.S. Secretary of Transportation, regarding a meeting he was having with Dick Cheney shortly before the Pentagon was hit. Here is Minetas account:

During the time that the airplane was coming in to the Pentagon, there was a young man who would come in and say to the Vice President, The plane is 50 miles out. The plane is 30 miles out. And when it got down to the plane is 10 miles out, the young man also said to the Vice President, Do the orders still stand? And the Vice President turned and whipped his neck around and said, of course the orders still stand. Have you heard anything to the contrary?

The 9/11 Commission interpreted this statement to indicate that Cheney had ordered the shooting down of Flight 77. But if that was the case, then why wasnt it shot down, and even more important, how can NORAD claim that it hadnt even been notified about Flight 77 until four minutes before the Pentagon was hit?

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  -Unmentionable Things in U.S. Politics Time for change  Aug-17-07 10:06 PM   #0 
  - Wow! But there are more examples  EndlessMaze   Aug-18-07 01:10 AM   #1 
  - For those to whom much has been given, little will be asked.  CrispyQGirl   Aug-18-07 06:23 AM   #7 
  - good points, let me add something else  MissWaverly   Aug-18-07 08:25 AM   #16 
  - Yes, all those things are taboo to one degree or another  Time for change   Aug-18-07 03:50 PM   #48 
  - I was just reflecting this morning on the same subject in relation to the UK  KCabotDullesMarxIII   Aug-19-07 03:18 PM   #89 
     - The issues *are* discussed but not by politicians with real power at the moment  LeftishBrit   Aug-21-07 09:06 AM   #99 
  - Certain things, if mentioned, would bring this nation to it's knees.  Philosoraptor   Aug-18-07 02:53 AM   #2 
  - In the way that you envision that  Time for change   Aug-18-07 11:14 AM   #24 
  - Poignant post...  Solon   Aug-18-07 03:26 AM   #3 
  - esp. when super patriots keep jingling keys to the nukes  MissWaverly   Aug-18-07 09:29 AM   #20 
  - Yes -- the jingoism is a good part of it  Time for change   Aug-18-07 09:16 PM   #74 
     - The big problem isn't that its secret, but that it isn't a secret at all...  Solon   Aug-19-07 02:52 AM   #82 
        - I agree with a great deal of what you say here  Time for change   Aug-19-07 08:36 AM   #84 
  - to this list I would add "Questioning what happened on 9/11" . . . n/t  OneBlueSky   Aug-18-07 03:56 AM   #4 
  - sssshhhhh  Philosoraptor   Aug-18-07 04:10 AM   #5 
  - I just can't believe it took over 5 hours for the loonies to come flocking from the basement.  Balbus   Aug-18-07 01:42 PM   #32 
  - There was never an investigation of what happened. Never.  TankLV   Aug-18-07 03:04 PM   #43 
     - It happened cuz the terraist hate us for our freedumb  drking81   Aug-18-07 09:45 PM   #78 
  - Absolutely  Time for change   Aug-18-07 02:58 PM   #42 
  - I disagree about 9/11. The 9/11 conspiracy theories have been thoroughly and repeatedly debunked.  Perry Logan   Aug-18-07 06:00 AM   #6 
  - If there had been a real investigation, there would be no questions.  baldguy   Aug-18-07 07:06 AM   #8 
  - Gee perry logan....I guess you are right....fer sher!  ooglymoogly   Aug-18-07 07:56 AM   #11 
  - self delete wrong place.  ooglymoogly   Aug-18-07 08:03 AM   #12 
  - Just one question...  The Vinyl Ripper   Aug-18-07 08:25 AM   #17 
  - Logical  Summer93   Aug-18-07 10:19 AM   #23 
  - In cases of security threats though..  The Vinyl Ripper   Aug-18-07 01:02 PM   #28 
  - Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner.  raccoon   Aug-21-07 08:39 AM   #97 
  - Why should we listen to them?  Time for change   Aug-18-07 09:09 AM   #19 
  - yes sir...and yes indeed....  ooglymoogly   Aug-18-07 12:52 PM   #27 
  - "I don't have an engineering bacfkground" - that is WHY YOU will never  TankLV   Aug-18-07 03:12 PM   #44 
     - My belief in MIHOP is not based on what caused the towers to fall  Time for change   Aug-18-07 03:45 PM   #47 
     - Quite a few engineers believe otherwise.  irislake   Aug-19-07 08:52 AM   #86 
     - Sorry To Prick Your Certitude, See "Architects And Engineers For Truth" At...  Fainter   Aug-19-07 04:38 PM   #92 
  - enlighten yourself with David Ray Griffin's "Debunking 9/11 Debunking"  bbgrunt   Aug-18-07 01:38 PM   #31 
  - No. Enlighten yourself on the subject here:  KCabotDullesMarxIII   Aug-19-07 03:28 PM   #91 
  - The official story can't be correct. There's hard proof that they at least KNEW 9/11 was going to  DutchLiberal   Aug-18-07 02:15 PM   #37 
  - Now - THAT part of the truth is also a FACT.  TankLV   Aug-18-07 03:13 PM   #45 
  - After 6 years? I don't think so.  undeterred   Aug-18-07 02:44 PM   #40 
  - Neither can the White House Officials  irislake   Aug-19-07 08:37 AM   #85 
  - K&R  Senator   Aug-18-07 07:32 AM   #9 
  - Excellent post. And it's not just politicians....  Junkdrawer   Aug-18-07 07:43 AM   #10 
  - Thank you -- Yes, it certainly is not just the politicians  Time for change   Aug-18-07 04:30 PM   #49 
  - Malloy...Rosie...Jim Fetzer....  Junkdrawer   Aug-18-07 07:19 PM   #62 
  - Not forgetting to mention that so called secret plan  nolabels   Aug-19-07 07:32 AM   #83 
  - Another winner TFC-thanks. I am surprised at the reluctance even in the blogosphere  mod mom   Aug-18-07 08:05 AM   #13 
  - I believe there's a strong element of denial there  Time for change   Aug-18-07 12:37 PM   #25 
  - Its great to see someone put what most of us are thinking  ooglymoogly   Aug-18-07 08:06 AM   #14 
  - code words: remaining vital national security interests in Iraq  leftchick   Aug-18-07 08:22 AM   #15 
  - Yeah, code words, good point  Time for change   Aug-18-07 06:38 PM   #59 
  - Great post!  loudsue   Aug-18-07 09:09 AM   #18 
  - Thank you -- yes, that's a real shame  Time for change   Aug-18-07 09:22 PM   #75 
  - Wonderful K&R n/t  slipslidingaway   Aug-18-07 09:46 AM   #21 
  - excellent post!  G_j   Aug-18-07 09:46 AM   #22 
  - That's the whole point.  LWolf   Aug-18-07 12:50 PM   #26 
  - I most certainly hope that they are up for a big change  Time for change   Aug-18-07 07:03 PM   #60 
     - I'm with you on that one.  LWolf   Aug-18-07 07:13 PM   #61 
  - This dynamic is like that of a dysfunctional family  bleever   Aug-18-07 01:17 PM   #29 
  - I believe that the dysfunctional family parallel is a good part of the picture  Time for change   Aug-18-07 05:09 PM   #52 
  - I think JFK left a response too your OP.  Larry Ogg   Aug-18-07 01:26 PM   #30 
  - Wow, what a great speech!  Time for change   Aug-18-07 06:14 PM   #58 
  - ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##  DU GrovelBot   Aug-18-07 01:42 PM   #33 
  - great post. Let's also not forget that  bbgrunt   Aug-18-07 02:00 PM   #34 
  - Thank you -- wasn't aware that some of those people had "debunked" the 9-11 Truth Movement  Time for change   Aug-18-07 08:16 PM   #65 
     - well they are all certainly wary of being lambasted like  bbgrunt   Aug-18-07 08:42 PM   #67 
        - Take Chomsky and Corn for example  Time for change   Aug-18-07 08:51 PM   #69 
           - I know. But then it seems impossible that John Conyers would  bbgrunt   Aug-18-07 09:16 PM   #73 
  - Recommended! Best OP I've read in a long time. More:  DutchLiberal   Aug-18-07 02:02 PM   #35 
  - Thank you -- Yes, the cruel things that some of our troops do to the inhabitants of other countries  Time for change   Aug-18-07 07:34 PM   #63 
     - But whenever somebody speaks out about such crimes, the MSM destroys them.  DutchLiberal   Aug-19-07 01:55 PM   #87 
  - Failing to speak with forthrightness about the coming impacts of peak oil  IDemo   Aug-18-07 02:14 PM   #36 
  - K&R+ a cross-post from an interesting parent thread that does discuss "unmentionables"  bobthedrummer   Aug-18-07 02:24 PM   #38 
  - "An election that could be cancelled by decree"  Time for change   Aug-18-07 09:06 PM   #70 
  - Not to nitpick, but didn't Lyndon Johnson lie first about Vietnam?  undeterred   Aug-18-07 02:38 PM   #39 
  - I debated myself on whether it would be more accurate to say that  Time for change   Aug-18-07 02:52 PM   #41 
     - Fantastic post.  undeterred   Aug-18-07 03:20 PM   #46 
     - Make it FOUR Presidents  TheOtherMaven   Aug-18-07 07:44 PM   #64 
        - Even worse  Time for change   Aug-18-07 08:20 PM   #66 
  - If you had a free press everything would be mentionable.  irislake   Aug-18-07 04:33 PM   #50 
  - Yes, it would  Time for change   Aug-18-07 09:13 PM   #72 
  - k+r  Progs Rock   Aug-18-07 04:59 PM   #51 
  - 10 Zen Monkies has a similar list  intaglio   Aug-18-07 05:18 PM   #53 
  - That's a great list -- I didn't know that existed  Time for change   Aug-18-07 09:10 PM   #71 
  - This goes into the "Perception Management" file. K&R!  BornagainDUer   Aug-18-07 05:25 PM   #54 
  - 9/11 attack was  krj44   Aug-18-07 05:26 PM   #55 
  - K&R  bonito   Aug-18-07 05:38 PM   #56 
  - Holy Mackerel!  nathan hale   Aug-18-07 05:44 PM   #57 
  - My heresies  Lydia Leftcoast   Aug-18-07 08:48 PM   #68 
  - Great post. nt  raccoon   Aug-21-07 08:44 AM   #98 
  - Here is the most glaring omission to me  Melissa G   Aug-18-07 09:22 PM   #76 
  - Those are big ones -- and shamelessly hidden from the American people  Time for change   Aug-18-07 09:35 PM   #77 
  - Class  Romulox   Aug-18-07 09:47 PM   #79 
  - Thank you  bob_weaver   Aug-18-07 09:54 PM   #80 
  - No critiques of Israel allowed either.  Hardrada   Aug-19-07 12:55 AM   #81 
  - Yes, you are very right!  DutchLiberal   Aug-19-07 02:11 PM   #88 
  - Your best ever. Bookmarked!!  understandinglife   Aug-19-07 03:20 PM   #90 
  - Kickin' for TFC!  Melissa G   Aug-19-07 06:45 PM   #93 
  - You can talk about conditions in our prisons  Lilith Velkor   Aug-19-07 07:39 PM   #94 
  - We are all guilty of murder because we are paying these people...  L0oniX   Aug-19-07 08:01 PM   #95 
  - thank you, thank you- time for change  blondie58   Aug-21-07 08:15 AM   #96 

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