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Reply #60: The difference between industry regulation and "saving people from themselves": [View All]

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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-27-07 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #55
60. The difference between industry regulation and "saving people from themselves":
Edited on Fri Jul-27-07 06:50 PM by impeachdubya
Making sure that the gin you buy from the liquor store is actually gin, and not turpentine-

and...

Making the gin you buy from the liquor store against the law.

Seems to me, you're the one who can't see the difference. And, because of what I can only assume is a total inability to respond to the arguments *I* have put forth, you continue to make up a bunch of shit, try to put it in my mouth, and then argue against it. That may work with this guy-



But I'm not going to play along.

For example, you throw this out:

"I should be free to do whatever I want, so long as it doesn't hurt anyone else!"
and
"People should take responsibility for harm they cause to themselves"


I didn't say that. For instance, I support a SPHC system. And unlike some who would pick and choose which "sins" they think everyone's public health dollars should cover, I understand that just about everyone has done something potentially stupid and/or detrimental to their health that could rack up health costs. The person bitching about smokers may have had numerous sex partners. The person griping about druggies may eat a lot of trans fats. The person complaining about alcoholism may ride their motorcycle like an idiot. And so on. Either we get into this never-ending game about "who costs what and why", or we accept that everyone makes bad choices sometimes, and the price we pay in society is covering everyone's health, regardless. (Which actually ends up being cheaper, because under the current system we pay for those things anyway.) Beyond that, fund treatment on demand and make help available for people who have problems when they're ready to deal with them.

Which does not change the fact that consenting adults need to be free to make their own decisions about their own bodies. Get it? Do I need to say it in a different language? MY body doesn't belong to any church, or any state, it belongs to ME. Maybe that's a "teenagerish" philosophy. I don't give a fuck. I haven't been a "teenager" for quite a long time, and if anything, I'm MORE fed up with the busybodies and control freaks on this planet who seemingly have nothing better to do than try to run everyone else's life.

Now, in answer to your questions, which really don't have anything to do with the arguments I've put forth:

Do you believe in there being such a thing as a civilized society? Yes, like I also believe in the square root of -1. It's an abstraction, as well as a conglomeration of terms that are even harder to nail down than "libertarian". What's a civilized society? I believe in societies, I think we live in one. "Civilized"? I don't think it's civilized to lock people up because they choose to smoke a plant that other people don't want them to smoke. I don't think it's civilized to wage war on other countries based on lies. But, on the other hand, we have a civilization, so by definition we're "civilized". We're also a lot more civilized (using what I consider the moral definition) than many other societies have been throughout history, probably most.

Do you realize that taxes are not a violent institution robbing you of your livelihood? Yes.

Do you believe that people have a right to stay alive? Yes. I do NOT believe that other people have the right to tell those people what they can or cannot do, no matter how much they insist it is "well-meaning" control to keep those people alive. For instance, if a terminally ill person wants to die, I think they should have that right, TOO.

Okay, I answered your questions. Here are a few for you:

1) Do you think marijuana should be against the law?

2) Do you think alcohol should be against the law?

3) Do you think tobacco should be against the law?

4) Do you think that processed sugar should be against the law?

5) Do you think it should be against the law for two consenting adults of the same sex to have sex with each other in the privacy of their own home?

6) Do you think it should be legal for those two consenting gay adults to make a film of themselves having sex with each other?

7) Do you think it should be legal for the two consenting gay adults to give that film to another consenting adult to watch for their enjoyment?

8) Do you think it should be legal for the two consenting gay adults to sell that film to another consenting adult to watch for his or her enjoyment?

9) Now, repeat questions 5-8, but with consenting adult heterosexuals.

10) Do you think people should have the right to use birth control?

11) Do you think individual women, and not politicians and tv preachers, should be the ones in charge of their bodies when they're pregnant?

12) Do you think that the "right to stay alive" includes the right to use government and laws to tell other people what to do, when you don't like the choices they're making for themselves?

13) If an individual doesn't own his or her own body, and shouldn't be the final arbiter of all decisions pertaining to his or her own body, who does, and who should? (What other individual, individuals, or institution?)
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  -On libertarianism and Ron Paul lwcon  Jul-26-07 02:08 PM   #0 
  - K&R! n/t  cynatnite   Jul-26-07 02:10 PM   #1 
  - I view a libertarian as a liberal without the social justice agenda.  liberaldemocrat7   Jul-29-07 06:09 PM   #72 
  - Ron Paul is a case study in the dangers of one-issue voting.  Beelzebud   Jul-26-07 02:13 PM   #2 
  - You said it. nt  Bluebear   Jul-26-07 02:14 PM   #4 
  - Well said  vpilot   Jul-26-07 05:53 PM   #35 
  - best definition I've heard  SCantiGOP   Jul-26-07 02:14 PM   #3 
  - That doesn't come close to quantifying Libertarianism  Chulanowa   Jul-26-07 04:17 PM   #19 
     - Sorry! left-libertarian here. I'll stick with my cutesy, deluded, internet-poll influenced label,  impeachdubya   Jul-26-07 04:44 PM   #22 
        - me too  GTRMAN   Jul-26-07 05:16 PM   #28 
        - You go right ahead, I can't stop you ;)  Chulanowa   Jul-26-07 10:08 PM   #47 
           - Most people on the "far" left can be divided into three general categories.  Selatius   Jul-26-07 10:32 PM   #50 
           - You're very good at putting words into my mouth, as well as telling me what I think.  impeachdubya   Jul-26-07 11:00 PM   #51 
              - From one left-Libertarian to another:  distantearlywarning   Jul-27-07 07:38 AM   #53 
              - I was unaware that I was putting words into your mouth  Chulanowa   Jul-27-07 02:49 PM   #55 
                 - Perhaps your problem is that you are historically illiterate on the origin of the word libertarian  toddaa   Jul-27-07 03:12 PM   #56 
                 - Absolutly not.  Chulanowa   Jul-27-07 03:36 PM   #57 
                    - So when someone says that they are a left libertarian  toddaa   Jul-27-07 03:58 PM   #58 
                       - No, but they puzzle me  Chulanowa   Jul-27-07 04:28 PM   #59 
                          - Well, work on it some more. Start with the realization that libertarianism the philosophy and the  impeachdubya   Jul-27-07 06:05 PM   #61 
                          - What can be so puzzling about wanting to increase personal liberty?  toddaa   Jul-27-07 06:34 PM   #62 
                             - As soon as someone reverently mentions Ayn Rand, I bug the fuck OUTTA there.  impeachdubya   Jul-27-07 06:43 PM   #63 
                 - The difference between industry regulation and "saving people from themselves":  impeachdubya   Jul-27-07 06:04 PM   #60 
                    - Words of wisdom if I ever saw any.  beevul   Jul-27-07 08:30 PM   #64 
                    - You're not terribly good at this, are you?  Chulanowa   Jul-27-07 09:33 PM   #65 
                    - Uh, I don't think *I'm* the one who isn't good at this. Your arguments, if you can call 'em that  impeachdubya   Jul-27-07 11:13 PM   #66 
                    - Oh look! Pikcherz!  Chulanowa   Jul-28-07 07:24 AM   #68 
                       - Actually, the intent wasn't to call you an uneducated dumbfuck. Really.  impeachdubya   Jul-28-07 03:37 PM   #70 
                          - The comparison was...  Chulanowa   Jul-29-07 05:43 PM   #71 
                    - Then objectivists have really messed with your head  toddaa   Jul-28-07 12:31 AM   #67 
                       - Erm, I think perhaps you missed the gist of the second point.  Chulanowa   Jul-28-07 07:30 AM   #69 
                    - Left libertarian looks like liberal or progressive to me.  liberaldemocrat7   Jul-29-07 07:56 PM   #73 
  - isn't ron paul a "bircher"  datasuspect   Jul-26-07 02:15 PM   #5 
  - You could not have said it better!!!  lies and propaganda   Jul-26-07 02:21 PM   #6 
  - Most Polluted County in America?  IamyourTVandIownyou   Jul-26-07 02:25 PM   #8 
  - I dont belive that link, sorry.  lies and propaganda   Jul-26-07 02:31 PM   #10 
  - Going through that list its like Texas isnt a big ole polluted mess.  lies and propaganda   Jul-26-07 02:35 PM   #11 
  - There is a ready market for...  lwcon   Jul-26-07 02:51 PM   #12 
  - If one is serious about examining Libertarian views  pocoloco   Jul-26-07 02:22 PM   #7 
  - Libertarian is an impressionistic term like emo  libnnc   Jul-26-07 02:26 PM   #9 
  - I've often defined the 'true' Libertarians as "Anarchists With Money"  unpossibles   Jul-26-07 02:52 PM   #13 
  - Absolutely none.  Chulanowa   Jul-26-07 04:25 PM   #20 
  - Libertarianism, especially on the economic front,  AX10   Jul-26-07 02:54 PM   #14 
  - The entire point of this thread is to deliberately conflate social libertarianism with the big-L  impeachdubya   Jul-26-07 04:53 PM   #23 
  - we are sliding into to WWIII to save the system  CGowen   Jul-26-07 03:23 PM   #15 
  - Leftists have long taken similar anti-imperial stands.  KaptBunnyPants   Jul-26-07 03:47 PM   #16 
     - I don't think real candidates like Paul, Kucinich or Gravel have a great chance of being elected  CGowen   Jul-26-07 03:59 PM   #17 
        - Hillary vs Giuliani, ugh...  KaptBunnyPants   Jul-26-07 04:01 PM   #18 
  - Ron Paul is an anti-choice, anti-separation of church & state asshole. Kindly  impeachdubya   Jul-26-07 04:38 PM   #21 
  - If you want to pretend away...  lwcon   Jul-26-07 04:54 PM   #24 
  - Yeah, I would agree with all that. Sorry, I've just seen a few too many threads that seemed designed  impeachdubya   Jul-26-07 05:49 PM   #34 
     - Thank you  lwcon   Jul-26-07 08:21 PM   #45 
        - Yeah, they're spending money like it's going out of style.  impeachdubya   Jul-26-07 10:15 PM   #48 
  - I like to divide social issues from economic issues  hfojvt   Jul-26-07 05:20 PM   #29 
  - You and I are of like minds, and I agree with your post  Zodiak Ironfist   Jul-26-07 05:37 PM   #31 
  - Thanks. I actually knew that, but was typing fast. Honest.  impeachdubya   Jul-26-07 08:04 PM   #43 
  - Yup.  Warren Stupidity   Jul-26-07 08:19 PM   #44 
  - I think the real appeal of Paul is his no-BS approach  dorkulon   Jul-26-07 04:56 PM   #25 
  - The old "says what he means, means what he says, " eh?  lwcon   Jul-26-07 05:01 PM   #26 
  - I'm not voting for the guy, but it is refreshing.  dorkulon   Jul-26-07 05:07 PM   #27 
  - he talks sense? he thinks? please a beverage alert  pitohui   Jul-26-07 05:38 PM   #32 
     - This is what I mean.  dorkulon   Jul-26-07 06:01 PM   #37 
        - Bingo. Bush provoked the 9-11 attacks. Bush stood ready to invade Afghanistan before 9-11.  liberaldemocrat7   Jul-29-07 08:27 PM   #74 
  - it "can" mean a lot of things, in practice it means "i don't want a referee in the game"  pitohui   Jul-26-07 05:37 PM   #30 
  - Ron Paul is scary  proud2Blib   Jul-26-07 05:40 PM   #33 
  - libertarians are often adept at identifing and analyzing problems . . .  OneBlueSky   Jul-26-07 05:58 PM   #36 
  - Libertarians currently have more common interest with the left than the right . . . . . . . . . . .  charles t   Jul-26-07 06:15 PM   #38 
  - I liked Ron Paul, until I found out about his ideas about privatizing *everything*, but  DutchLiberal   Jul-26-07 06:37 PM   #39 
  - It'd be easy to keep Paul from stealing Dem votes...  Truth2Tell   Jul-26-07 06:49 PM   #40 
  - he won't steal dem votes, he'll steal stupid peoples' aka GOP votes  pitohui   Jul-26-07 06:53 PM   #41 
     - Why do you deliberately ignore my point?  Truth2Tell   Jul-26-07 07:46 PM   #42 
     - do you need me to spell it out? your point is silly  pitohui   Jul-26-07 08:23 PM   #46 
     - One lesson we've learned from the last two presidential elections...  lwcon   Jul-27-07 07:06 AM   #52 
  - Where is this high school where "the cool kids read Ayn Rand"???  mitchum   Jul-26-07 10:31 PM   #49 
     - rofl  AX10   Jul-27-07 01:42 PM   #54 
 

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