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Reply #186: Unlike "a Prosecutor that rushes to trail and blows it". . . [View All]

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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-27-07 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #126
186. Unlike "a Prosecutor that rushes to trail and blows it". . .
Edited on Fri Jul-27-07 02:11 PM by pat_k
. . .the House can vote out the same charges, or some variation thereof, as many times as they wish.

Even if that weren't the case, the notion that impeaching Bush and Cheney right now (or even the day they convened in January) would be "rushing it" is a notion that doesn't stand up to scrutiny on any level. I don't mean to single you out. You're invoking one of the false memes that enable their dereliction -- false memes that must be challenged whenever possible.

Bush and Cheney turned the USA into a War Criminal nation that illegally spies on its own citizens in plain sight. The case is simple, compelling, and complete. Bush and Cheney made the case against themselves with public statements, public actions, and executive orders.

No Member has described the evidence they've considered, and then explained why that evidence is somehow insufficient. More than a few have done the opposite. They've described the intolerable violations of the Constitution, declared them intolerable, and then declared their intent keep the ONLY weapon capable of enforcing the dictates of the Constitution "off the table."

There was never any doubt that Geneva applied to Gitmo. The SCOTUS ruling in Hamdan was a declaration that three years of War Crimes has already occurred. (There's a reason War Crimes are subject to the penalty of death. So that those with the power to commit such crimes have a powerful motive to stay far away from "the line." There is no "unringing" the bell. "I didn't know where the line was" is not a legitimate defense.)

When the need to protect the sanctity of the Constitution is weighed against the privilege of remaining in office, the threshold must be a low one. As the following quote from Madison demonstrates, suspicion is more than enough.

If the President be connected, in any suspicious manner, with any person, and there be grounds to believe he will shelter him, the House of Representatives can impeach him; they can remove him if found

By any reasonable definition, we passed the "impeachable" threshold long ago. It's been adjudicated all the way up to the Supreme Court.

It is impossible to imagine how any Member of the House or Senate could possible defend the belief that the public record is "not enough." Particularly when people who otherwise defend the fascist fantasy of unitary authoritarian power have concluded that:

. . .we cannot in good conscience defend a decision that we believe has compromised our national honor and that may well promote the commission of war crimes by Americans and place at risk the welfare of captured American military forces for generations to come.. . .

War Crimes and the White House
By P.X. Kelley and Robert F. Turner
Washington Post, July 26, 2007

Even if Members of Congress think the powerful case they have isn't "enough," the widespread belief that our President and Vice President are War Criminals is itself an intolerable threat to our constitutional democracy. Their oath to defend demands that they seek to remove the War Criminals, or seek to assure the public that Bush and Cheney are not war criminals.

If the articles they vote out go down because there is some "hole," all they need to do it plug the "hole" and vote out another set of articles. As noted at the outset, unlike a criminal prosecution, they can impeach on the same charges, or variations thereof, as many times as they please.

If the Senate fails to remove because too many fascist minions render a decision that is at odds with the obvious facts, impeachment in and of itself is our only means to shed the bonds of complicity. It is an unequivocal rejection of bushncheneyism. It forces the people we send to the House and Senate to choose -- American Principle or Fascist Principle. And we will judge the choice in next election. If our Congressional leaders deny us that opportunity, they expose their own fascist tendencies and their disdain and distrust of the electorate.

In War Crimes and the White House, Kelly and Turner issue the following warning:

Policymakers should also keep in mind that violations of Common Article 3 are "war crimes" for which everyone involved -- potentially up to and including the president of the United States -- may be tried in any of the other 193 countries that are parties to the conventions.

In other words, Members of Congress themselves are vulnerable to trial for war crimes. Members of the 109th Congress who voted for the War Criminals Protection Act made themselves direct parties to the White House war crimes. Any of those 193 countries could conclude that Members of the 110th Congress are party to the torture that continued while they used their power to keep impeachment "off the table."

If a Member won't demand impeachment to rescue the Constitution, perhaps they will to ensure that they can travel without fear that some other country will pick them up and put them on trial as an accomplice to war crimes.

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  -How Soon We Forget- The Leadership of John Conyers BullGooseLoony  Jul-26-07 01:17 AM   #0 
  - So glad to recommend.  mzmolly   Jul-26-07 01:20 AM   #1 
  - I second that n/t  cynatnite   Jul-26-07 01:22 AM   #2 
  - Always glad to see ya, Mz.  BullGooseLoony   Jul-26-07 01:22 AM   #4 
     - Backatcha bub.  mzmolly   Jul-26-07 01:12 PM   #69 
  - No. John Conyers has suggested that he would start impeachment  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 01:22 AM   #3 
  - I'll say it again: He wants justice as much as anyone here,  BullGooseLoony   Jul-26-07 01:26 AM   #5 
  - No. I hold people responsible for their behavior -- at a minimum.  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 01:30 AM   #6 
     - That attitude will hurt all of us.  madfloridian   Jul-26-07 01:33 AM   #9 
        - Intractable? Try, principled.  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 01:34 AM   #11 
        - No, Cindy's group passed principled and is heading towad extreme.  madfloridian   Jul-26-07 01:40 AM   #16 
        - They don't care  Marrah_G   Jul-26-07 07:34 AM   #34 
        - I'm not speaking for anyone else. n/t  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 10:15 AM   #44 
        - In the first place, that meeting was not "Cindy's group"  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 10:52 PM   #151 
        - I'm not seeing the principle.  BullGooseLoony   Jul-26-07 01:42 AM   #17 
        - It's not unreasonable to expect people to either keep their word  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 10:14 AM   #42 
        - You have no problem with him being bashed and called a traitor?  Marrah_G   Jul-26-07 07:31 AM   #33 
        - But I didn't say that. And I do have a big problem with  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 10:14 AM   #41 
           - I'm not saying he is perfect but he does not deserve the bashing this week on this board  Marrah_G   Jul-26-07 10:19 AM   #45 
              - That kind of stuff hasn't helped the situation at all, has it? n/t  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 10:24 AM   #46 
                 - No it hasn't n/t  Marrah_G   Jul-26-07 10:36 AM   #47 
                    - And yet, it's still happening on this thread and some of it has  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 10:44 AM   #49 
                       - I think much of it is bashing overload  Marrah_G   Jul-26-07 10:53 AM   #50 
                          - It's been flying fast in both directions and that's too bad.  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 11:08 AM   #51 
        - Did your attitude go bad again?  bobbolink   Jul-26-07 09:43 PM   #140 
           - I'm fresh out of sweetener!  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 10:54 PM   #152 
        - "Want it all right now"  puebloknot   Jul-26-07 02:33 AM   #19 
        - How about when it will work?  EstimatedProphet   Jul-26-07 01:33 PM   #75 
        - But that's not what Conyers told these people. He told them  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 10:50 PM   #150 
           - When in the hell are you going to learn....  bobbolink   Jul-27-07 10:28 AM   #176 
              - See any dragons?  sfexpat2000   Jul-27-07 10:41 AM   #181 
                 - Greetings, St. George!  bobbolink   Jul-27-07 10:44 AM   #182 
        - Aw, cumon, puebloknot.... your impatience is soooo very unseemly....  bobbolink   Jul-27-07 10:26 AM   #175 
        - an off-topic p.s.  bobbolink   Jul-27-07 10:55 AM   #183 
        - I call it the Veruca Salt effect  LittleClarkie   Jul-26-07 02:52 AM   #25 
           - Calling the Oompah-Loompas!  Behind the Aegis   Jul-26-07 02:57 AM   #26 
  - Sometimes pushing good people too hard negates your cause.  madfloridian   Jul-26-07 01:32 AM   #7 
  - Sometimes holding people accountable is a mistake?  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 01:33 AM   #8 
     - Bullshit. Go ahead and make me the bad guy. You hurt your cuase.  madfloridian   Jul-26-07 01:34 AM   #12 
     - My pleasure.  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 01:35 AM   #14 
     - Okay, poof!  bobbolink   Jul-27-07 10:30 AM   #177 
     - Deleted message  Name removed   Jul-26-07 02:37 AM   #21 
        - I am a woman.  madfloridian   Jul-26-07 09:51 AM   #40 
        - I am sorry you think I am "a joke".  madfloridian   Jul-26-07 01:25 PM   #73 
     - Holding freaking JOHN CONYERS "accountable?"  BullGooseLoony   Jul-26-07 01:35 AM   #13 
     - John Conyers is not accountable for what he says?  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 01:37 AM   #15 
     - Food for thought Sfexpat  mzmolly   Jul-26-07 12:01 PM   #57 
     - My hope is that everyone will heal up from this family fight  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 01:27 PM   #74 
        - I hope so too sfexpat.  mzmolly   Jul-26-07 01:41 PM   #80 
     - I saw what he said..  Virginia Dare   Jul-26-07 07:02 PM   #131 
     - I don't believe anyone has intentionally set out to tell lies  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 10:08 PM   #142 
     - So, that was *you*....  bobbolink   Jul-27-07 10:32 AM   #178 
     - What are 'OUR" goals?  Breeze54   Jul-26-07 02:38 AM   #23 
     - They do not care  Marrah_G   Jul-26-07 07:38 AM   #35 
        - This isn't about Cindy. Many events have been about Cindy  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 01:55 PM   #87 
           - There may have been a few of you having a discussion  Marrah_G   Jul-26-07 02:28 PM   #91 
           - I didn't notice the new posters, Marrah, but I can be dense sometimes.  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 02:32 PM   #92 
              - At least two of them wrote nasty hit pieces.  Marrah_G   Jul-26-07 02:39 PM   #96 
                 - Three of them wrote pieces, to my knowledge -- Ray, David  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 02:41 PM   #98 
                    - You give me hope though  Marrah_G   Jul-26-07 02:44 PM   #101 
                       - It's always more painful and upsetting when people who care  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 02:47 PM   #103 
                          - yup  Marrah_G   Jul-26-07 02:48 PM   #105 
           - Except there is no betrayal..  Virginia Dare   Jul-26-07 07:04 PM   #132 
              - John Conyers didn't tell those people "We're working on."  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 10:11 PM   #143 
     - No, that's not what she said...n/t  Virginia Dare   Jul-26-07 07:00 PM   #130 
  - When did he say that?  seasonedblue   Jul-26-07 02:50 AM   #24 
  - There were two times that I know of -- and you understand,  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 10:43 AM   #48 
     - He did not give a deadline.  mzmolly   Jul-26-07 12:14 PM   #59 
     - No, he didn't a deadline that I know of, that's right.  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 01:06 PM   #68 
     - From everything that I've read, Conyers always tempered  seasonedblue   Jul-26-07 12:36 PM   #63 
        - I don't believe that I represented that he signed a blood oath.  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 01:04 PM   #67 
  - "suggested"  WilliamPitt   Jul-26-07 04:21 AM   #29 
     - There's something weird going on here because  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 11:47 AM   #53 
        - And Cindy Sheehan, whose cause I respect,sounds more like the same administration  MichiganVote   Jul-26-07 12:00 PM   #56 
        - This isn't about Cindy Sheehan and attacking her misses the  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 12:05 PM   #58 
           - Yup. Been hearing that kind of 'larger picture' stuff for the last six years too.  MichiganVote   Jul-26-07 12:53 PM   #64 
              - Do you know who was at that meeting, Michigan? n/t  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 01:02 PM   #66 
                 - Has it been reported on? Press release? Statements by participants?  MichiganVote   Jul-26-07 06:55 PM   #128 
                    - Yep. It was not Cindy's event. n/t  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 10:21 PM   #147 
        - So rather then haviong any faith in a very good man they chose to trash the hell out of him  Marrah_G   Jul-26-07 12:26 PM   #60 
        - But that's exactly my point. Those people were so upset  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 12:31 PM   #62 
        - Could it be, perhaps..  Virginia Dare   Jul-26-07 07:05 PM   #133 
           - I in no way believe the problem is John Conyers. n/t  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 10:56 PM   #153 
  - Spoke with Slaughter's office today.  Dr_eldritch   Jul-26-07 01:33 AM   #10 
  - And I hear the MPAA and the RIAA rate him quite high as well, Yay Team!! nt  ToeBot   Jul-26-07 02:04 AM   #18 
  - Maybe he forgot ..... 'US'?  Breeze54   Jul-26-07 02:35 AM   #20 
  - Great post!  Behind the Aegis   Jul-26-07 02:38 AM   #22 
  - I am still proud to call him my representitive  Az   Jul-26-07 03:03 AM   #27 
  - He's not my rep -- Levin is  SharonRB   Jul-27-07 06:37 PM   #193 
  - Happy to K & R! Well-said. Thank you! n/t  Joolz   Jul-26-07 04:20 AM   #28 
  - Gone but not forgotten ...  Everybody   Jul-26-07 06:40 AM   #30 
  - In total agreement  ellacott   Jul-26-07 07:19 AM   #31 
  - I support the leg work for impeachable offenses he has done.  mmonk   Jul-26-07 07:27 AM   #32 
  - seems simple enough...  Psyop Samurai   Jul-26-07 02:04 PM   #89 
     - You're welcome.  mmonk   Jul-26-07 03:05 PM   #112 
  - He needs to do his fucking job  proud2Blib   Jul-26-07 07:38 AM   #36 
  - We appreciate J. Conyers in Michigan and we're not likely to vote him out  MichiganVote   Jul-26-07 11:54 AM   #54 
  - Conyer's "What went wrong in Ohio" is the 21st century version of "Common Sense"  Fly by night   Jul-26-07 08:18 AM   #37 
  - Conyers took some very unpopular, but principled stands on issues in Michigan  noonwitch   Jul-26-07 08:57 AM   #38 
  - Unfortunatly those principled stands are not even looked at by the criticizing crew  MichiganVote   Jul-26-07 11:56 AM   #55 
     - This isn't about Michigan, either. n/t  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 01:12 PM   #70 
        - No, the incident is not about Michigan, but the man is.  MichiganVote   Jul-26-07 06:56 PM   #129 
           - He's also the chair of the House Judiciary Committee  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 09:59 PM   #141 
              - And that's what is not easy to understand. For you or for me.  MichiganVote   Jul-26-07 10:14 PM   #145 
                 - I do understand it. Nancy is my representative. She wears  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 10:15 PM   #146 
                    - I'm beginning to wonder if there are a couple more hats stashed somewhere.  bobbolink   Jul-27-07 11:03 AM   #184 
  - Kick!! Keep up the good work Rep. Conyers  Marrah_G   Jul-26-07 09:04 AM   #39 
  - right on  bigtree   Jul-26-07 10:15 AM   #43 
  - BRAVO!!!  xultar   Jul-26-07 11:09 AM   #52 
  - How quickly some turn  NeedleCast   Jul-26-07 12:30 PM   #61 
  - You need to refer to my post earlier.  mmonk   Jul-26-07 12:58 PM   #65 
     - I will never understand your passion for this  NeedleCast   Jul-26-07 01:20 PM   #71 
        - The forrest that you're not seeing has been explained up thread.  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 01:25 PM   #72 
        - It's an attempt to hurt the Democratic party.  madfloridian   Jul-26-07 01:33 PM   #76 
        - This isn't about the party just as it isn't about Cindy.  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 01:36 PM   #79 
        - And I've read the explanation  NeedleCast   Jul-26-07 01:45 PM   #84 
           - As I've said ad nauseum, this isn't about Cindy.  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 01:52 PM   #86 
           - Unfortunatly movements also have faces  NeedleCast   Jul-26-07 02:35 PM   #94 
              - I'm sorry if I'm not listening very well. Long week.  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 02:56 PM   #108 
           - The Clinton impeachment was primarily a failure  mmonk   Jul-26-07 02:59 PM   #110 
              - And, according to Conyers  NeedleCast   Jul-26-07 03:17 PM   #114 
        - I don't their original intention was to bash Conyers.  mmonk   Jul-26-07 01:34 PM   #77 
        - I can't wrap my mind around the idea that anyone would think  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 02:03 PM   #88 
           - Here is why:  Marrah_G   Jul-26-07 02:35 PM   #93 
              - You forgot one.....senile.  seasonedblue   Jul-26-07 02:37 PM   #95 
              - But those weren't hit pieces. They were the outcome of a failed meeting.  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 02:40 PM   #97 
              - They were hit pieces  Marrah_G   Jul-26-07 02:43 PM   #100 
              - Yes, they probably were intended to hurt. And they came out of  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 02:45 PM   #102 
                 - I hope you feel the same way about people  seasonedblue   Jul-26-07 02:50 PM   #106 
                    - I agree. It goes both ways. No doubt about that, imho. n/t  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 02:58 PM   #109 
              - Coming on the heels of calling the Democratic Party  Virginia Dare   Jul-26-07 07:12 PM   #135 
                 - I'm referring to the pieces by David, Medea and Ray, who  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 10:13 PM   #144 
              - I think the intention of the meeting was something different.  mmonk   Jul-26-07 02:42 PM   #99 
                 - Agree. This was an unfortunate trainwreck,  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 03:19 PM   #115 
                    - No, more like a crash course derby...n/t  Virginia Dare   Jul-26-07 07:13 PM   #136 
        - Great post. And welcome to DU!  jpgray   Jul-26-07 01:36 PM   #78 
        - In a better world, yours would be the last word on this subject.  asthmaticeog   Jul-26-07 01:41 PM   #81 
        - You spoke my mind  mzmolly   Jul-26-07 01:44 PM   #82 
        - Great post, thank you.  seasonedblue   Jul-26-07 01:44 PM   #83 
        - I might decide to start donating to DU again......  XNASA   Jul-26-07 02:50 PM   #107 
  - Thank you for the reminder...  Psyop Samurai   Jul-26-07 01:52 PM   #85 
  - I'll go on the record and say  NeedleCast   Jul-26-07 02:22 PM   #90 
     - You need to quit reducing the impeachment movement to Cindy.  mmonk   Jul-26-07 02:47 PM   #104 
     - You know you are right we shouldn't reduce it to just her  Marrah_G   Jul-26-07 03:04 PM   #111 
        - No problem.  mmonk   Jul-26-07 03:21 PM   #116 
           - Actually you should be talking  Marrah_G   Jul-26-07 03:31 PM   #118 
              - Thanks much but sometimes  mmonk   Jul-26-07 03:43 PM   #120 
     - Thanks for your response...  Psyop Samurai   Jul-26-07 04:34 PM   #122 
        - With all due respect it wasn't a mountain out of a molehill  Marrah_G   Jul-26-07 10:38 PM   #149 
           - And, I'm no saint.  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 10:59 PM   #155 
           - St, Sfexpat2000- sounds like some bizzare Catholic Prayer-Bot  Marrah_G   Jul-26-07 11:27 PM   #162 
              - LOL! Pieces of my wardrobe are available  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 11:29 PM   #164 
           - I appreciate the distinction...  Psyop Samurai   Jul-27-07 03:12 PM   #191 
  - Tragically, by refusing to impeach, he is UNDOING his hard won. . .  pat_k   Jul-26-07 03:08 PM   #113 
  - Yes, that's what he did. And I'm not at all sure that was his  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 03:27 PM   #117 
  - Or perhaps he is going about things in a different manner  Marrah_G   Jul-26-07 03:33 PM   #119 
  - Any excuse for delay denies the magnitude of the crisis.  pat_k   Jul-26-07 04:59 PM   #124 
     - I can tell you what I think the difference is  Marrah_G   Jul-26-07 06:02 PM   #126 
     - Unlike "a Prosecutor that rushes to trail and blows it". . .  pat_k   Jul-27-07 01:59 PM   #186 
     - If Conyers, Pelosi, Leahy et. al. do not feel the time is right..  Virginia Dare   Jul-26-07 07:18 PM   #137 
        - They aren't telling us the "time isn't right"  pat_k   Jul-27-07 02:26 PM   #188 
  - The Right Thing to Do  NeedleCast   Jul-26-07 03:49 PM   #121 
     - You can't fail by acting on what your conscience dictates.  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 05:23 PM   #125 
     - How do you know they aren't acting on conscience...  Virginia Dare   Jul-26-07 07:20 PM   #138 
        - I was responding to the poster's remark about the protestors. nt  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 09:31 PM   #139 
     - They accomplished at least 4 key things.  pat_k   Jul-26-07 06:28 PM   #127 
  - I Haven't Forgotten. Course, I Haven't Lost My Mind And All Sense Of Reasoning Either.  OPERATIONMINDCRIME   Jul-26-07 04:42 PM   #123 
  - I think Conyers is great. I have no bad things to say.  illinoisprogressive   Jul-26-07 07:11 PM   #134 
  - One can admire Conyers and still criticize him. One can honor what he's done and still  kenzee13   Jul-26-07 10:26 PM   #148 
  - It wasn't criticism  Marrah_G   Jul-26-07 10:57 PM   #154 
     - Cmon. Between Saint Cindy and beholden-to-reality Conyers? You know how DU will rule.  BlooInBloo   Jul-26-07 11:01 PM   #156 
        - St. Cindy? Nice. This isn't about Cindy no matter how hard people try  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 11:09 PM   #157 
           - I thought it rolled off the toungue much better than the "Saint Conyers" upthread.  BlooInBloo   Jul-26-07 11:10 PM   #158 
           - . . .  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 11:10 PM   #159 
           - I got as much right to strawman hyperbole as the next guy! yah!  BlooInBloo   Jul-26-07 11:12 PM   #160 
              - LOL!  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 11:14 PM   #161 
           - Noooo I hope it was trolls  Marrah_G   Jul-26-07 11:28 PM   #163 
              - I know. It's been a rough time.  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-07 11:30 PM   #165 
                 - Pssst  Marrah_G   Jul-26-07 11:56 PM   #168 
  - what did this 'leadership' really  waldo_evans   Jul-26-07 11:44 PM   #166 
  - And here comes another troll!  Marrah_G   Jul-26-07 11:55 PM   #167 
     - do you call people you can't  waldo_evans   Jul-27-07 12:14 AM   #169 
        - Nope, I call a troll a troll  Marrah_G   Jul-27-07 12:17 AM   #170 
           - no I will not vanish, fool  waldo_evans   Jul-27-07 12:29 AM   #172 
              - truth is  bigtree   Jul-27-07 01:06 AM   #174 
  - Kicked & Rec'd ...  NanceGreggs   Jul-27-07 12:28 AM   #171 
  - Yes, he is, Nance.  SharonRB   Jul-27-07 03:03 PM   #190 
  - I like John Conyers... A LOT... but he's wrong on impeachment.  MessiahRp   Jul-27-07 12:33 AM   #173 
  - Off with his head!  JNelson6563   Jul-27-07 10:35 AM   #179 
  - You're so right, Julie!  SharonRB   Jul-27-07 06:46 PM   #195 
  - Since this thread is probably going to keep going  mmonk   Jul-27-07 10:37 AM   #180 
  - Thanks for writing this.  SharonRB   Jul-27-07 11:08 AM   #185 
  - Or with any activist or with each other.  sfexpat2000   Jul-27-07 02:05 PM   #187 
     - Thanks, sfexpat!  SharonRB   Jul-27-07 03:03 PM   #189 
        - Thank you for your clear thinking.  sfexpat2000   Jul-27-07 03:37 PM   #192 
  - Please see the journal entry I wrote in December after hearing Conyers speak  SharonRB   Jul-27-07 06:45 PM   #194 

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