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Reply #85: Translation: you are a modernist who believe black South Africans have no history and should [View All]

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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 07:48 AM
Response to Reply #67
85. Translation: you are a modernist who believe black South Africans have no history and should
Edited on Wed Jun-20-07 07:57 AM by Leopolds Ghost
"overcome their archaic ethnic classifications."

I am not amused by your calling me a supporter of Apartheid.

I stopped reading after the part where you declared that
there was no such thing as Matabeleland, or as you put it
"some ancient kingdom".

Your modernist attitude that Black Africans have no history,
that Zimbabweans have no national history pre-colonization,
and that the very existence of pre-20c. KwaZulu is an apartheid fiction
is outrageous.

and only proves my point in the OP that most historians are
modernists or postmodernists who reject the very idea of
pre-colonial political divisions as "unattested pre-history."

There have been reams of sociological texts documenting the
failure of your "reformist" attitude and demonstrating that
"supposed tribal groups" were not conveniently destroyed to
make way for your Marxian sociological utopia (or whatever
it is you're trying to sell by declaring me a fascist for
recognizing the relevance of pre-colonial history.)

Then you have the claim that there are no attested "facts"
about these supposed "tribal groups" -- you see the existence
of pre-colonisation African nations as pure unattested pre-history
of no relevance to the modern day.

Moreover, you mistook my entire OP for a post about the
20th centuiry. The entire post was about pre-colonization era,
the 18th and 19th century.

In other words, you are asserting that the pre-existence of
political units (KwaZulu, Matabele, Mossi) that correspond
with contemporary political regions is a fiction.

This is equivalent to saying that modern-day Lithuania bears no relation to the kingdom of the same name, and that anyone who claims to have an ethnic history as a Lithuanian is a conservative reactionary.
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  -Supposedly Fictitious Pre-Colonial Kingdoms Your History Teacher Never Told You About Leopolds Ghost  Jun-19-07 08:00 AM   #0 
  - WOW - great post Thanks for posting! :-)  papau   Jun-19-07 08:19 AM   #1 
  - a lot of this stuff is taught in schools. you musta had backwards teachers nt  msongs   Jun-19-07 08:27 AM   #2 
  - I would guess most of the schools in this country do not teach these things  unpossibles   Jun-19-07 08:35 AM   #4 
  - You would guess wrong.  Bucky   Jun-19-07 01:41 PM   #64 
  - I agree...  Jeff In Milwaukee   Jun-19-07 08:47 AM   #6 
  - You were in eighth grade in 1994-1996?  Leopolds Ghost   Jun-19-07 09:22 AM   #16 
     - Mr. Giddings in 7th Grade Social Studies...  Jeff In Milwaukee   Jun-19-07 09:59 AM   #27 
        - The pre-Columbian stuff is actually not as big a focus -- the situation in the Lakes Region  Leopolds Ghost   Jun-19-07 10:12 AM   #30 
           - I went to a great public school system  Marrah_G   Jun-19-07 10:49 AM   #36 
           - If you want to insist most Americans have / can afford a great public school like you can, fine.  Leopolds Ghost   Jun-19-07 11:15 AM   #40 
              - Did you get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning?  Jeff In Milwaukee   Jun-19-07 11:51 AM   #47 
              - OK, I wasn't trying to edumacate, if people know all this stuff that's perfect.  Leopolds Ghost   Jun-19-07 12:22 PM   #54 
              - I am sure there are plenty of things the teacher didn't have time to cover.  Marrah_G   Jun-19-07 12:10 PM   #49 
                 - Marrah, you're definitely lucky to have teachers who are focusing on stuff like this.  Leopolds Ghost   Jun-19-07 12:40 PM   #57 
                 - Yup I am lucky  Marrah_G   Jun-19-07 12:43 PM   #58 
                 - I don't think it was consciously done  Marrah_G   Jun-19-07 03:00 PM   #70 
                 - You do know that the New England states consistently rank high...  ellisonz   Jun-19-07 03:50 PM   #73 
                    - And I realize other places might not teach the same way  Marrah_G   Jun-19-07 03:56 PM   #74 
           - Just because people are stupid doesn't mean they weren't taught.  knitter4democracy   Jun-23-07 10:55 AM   #110 
  - I was going to say--  knitter4democracy   Jun-23-07 10:53 AM   #109 
  - great post. similar things happened in North America  unpossibles   Jun-19-07 08:34 AM   #3 
  - How bout this?  moose65   Jun-19-07 09:03 AM   #10 
  - Disease actually did a pretty good job of emptying out Native Americans from the Mississippi area.  mainegreen   Jun-19-07 09:14 AM   #13 
  - Kentucky was emptied out by disease in the mid-1700s according to reports.  Leopolds Ghost   Jun-19-07 09:56 AM   #25 
  - Plymouth was built on top of an abandoned village (5-10 yrs, disease).  ellisonz   Jun-19-07 03:58 PM   #75 
  - Disease did it all over the place  moose65   Jun-19-07 06:26 PM   #79 
  - I would see empty wilderness as wrong  Marrah_G   Jun-19-07 12:23 PM   #55 
  - I've never heard anyone say anything like that  Marrah_G   Jun-19-07 09:08 AM   #11 
  - try growing up in Ohio or Kentucky  unpossibles   Jun-19-07 09:26 AM   #18 
     - I avoid those places  Marrah_G   Jun-19-07 10:03 AM   #29 
        - well, to be fair, no we're not all rubes here  unpossibles   Jun-19-07 11:51 AM   #46 
           - I know you aren't  Marrah_G   Jun-19-07 12:13 PM   #51 
  - The truth about CHEROKEE INDIANS.....  leftchick   Jun-24-07 08:00 AM   #116 
  - The Iroquois was a confederacy and was one of the models our Founding Fathers used  Larkspur   Jun-19-07 08:40 AM   #5 
  - There are some excellent books on "The Trail of Tears" which discuss the history  Leopolds Ghost   Jun-19-07 09:18 AM   #14 
  - The entire Chickasaw and Cherokee fiasco was rooted in the "Wild West" atmosphere of the 20s and 30s  nealmhughes   Jun-19-07 07:48 PM   #82 
  - The Cherokee and the Choctaw tribes were betrayed by Andrew Jackson...  1monster   Jun-19-07 09:33 AM   #21 
  - What an incredibly racist wiki entry. Who wrote it?  Leopolds Ghost   Jun-19-07 10:22 AM   #32 
  - Presto.  ellisonz   Jun-19-07 04:23 PM   #76 
  - There was a very interesting article in... (Smithsonian?) about Pequot rural/urban areas.  Leopolds Ghost   Jun-19-07 11:48 AM   #45 
  - Great post!  LeftishBrit   Jun-19-07 08:49 AM   #7 
  - Judging by the replies, everyone learnt about the Aztec and Incan empires  muriel_volestrangler   Jun-19-07 01:28 PM   #61 
     - I just threw in the Aztec and Incan Empires because they were of interest to the subject at hand  Leopolds Ghost   Jun-19-07 01:50 PM   #66 
  - A few notes on the Conquest of Peru...  ellisonz   Jun-19-07 08:57 AM   #8 
  - Not to mention Pizzarro got whacked before the last Inca ruler...  Leopolds Ghost   Jun-19-07 11:39 AM   #44 
  - I must have had different teachers  Marrah_G   Jun-19-07 09:03 AM   #9 
  - Two things  Richard D   Jun-19-07 09:10 AM   #12 
  - Anthony Bourdain chewed it when he visited Peru  WakeMeUp   Jun-19-07 12:18 PM   #53 
     - When you're in the Andes  Richard D   Jun-19-07 02:24 PM   #69 
  - I teach most of this stuff in my classes.  Coventina   Jun-19-07 09:21 AM   #15 
  - As do I - and with a bit more coherency.  enlightenment   Jun-19-07 09:30 AM   #20 
     - I am sure your students appreciate the snottiness  Leopolds Ghost   Jun-19-07 09:50 AM   #24 
        - I teach at the college level  enlightenment   Jun-19-07 04:57 PM   #77 
           - Apparently you feel only experts can talk about the subject, oh well.  Leopolds Ghost   Jun-20-07 07:24 AM   #83 
  - I really, really appreciate your effort and motives, but  HamdenRice   Jun-19-07 09:24 AM   #17 
  - How is Zulu expansion inexplicable? Like the Mongols and Brits, they invented an effective & deadly  Leopolds Ghost   Jun-19-07 09:30 AM   #19 
  - It's not the "how"; it's the "why"  HamdenRice   Jun-19-07 09:57 AM   #26 
     - I think people have the inherent capacity for evil & peace is best preserved thru inertia.  Leopolds Ghost   Jun-19-07 10:01 AM   #28 
     - I think it is explicable via racism/tribalism  AngryAmish   Jun-22-07 10:13 AM   #98 
  - Guns, Germs, and Steel is the book, but...  JHB   Jun-19-07 09:41 AM   #22 
  - The Ndebele were a Zulu off-shoot. As far as Jared Diamond goes  Leopolds Ghost   Jun-19-07 09:44 AM   #23 
     - Looks like Diamond got southern Africa wrong -- I'll take a look  HamdenRice   Jun-19-07 10:25 AM   #33 
        - Thanks for the clarification.  Leopolds Ghost   Jun-19-07 10:51 AM   #37 
        - Strangest interpretation of the Zulu expansion: It never happened  HamdenRice   Jun-19-07 12:13 PM   #52 
        - It kind of sounds like what happened in the Great Plains w/ the Sioux expansion  Leopolds Ghost   Jun-19-07 12:48 PM   #59 
        - I always though slaving on the west coast was mostly an Arab thing  AngryAmish   Jun-22-07 10:03 AM   #97 
           - Arabs helped start the W. African slave trade  HamdenRice   Jun-23-07 09:45 AM   #108 
        - Uh, the buffalo grass of the Dakota high plains once supported herds of buffalo  struggle4progress   Jun-19-07 05:19 PM   #78 
           - I'm using "desert" in the old-fashioned sense of the word  Leopolds Ghost   Jun-20-07 07:30 AM   #84 
              - The so-called "pioneers" did not want the Western lands for only a few years --  struggle4progress   Jun-20-07 11:08 PM   #93 
        - Drakensberg, not Drakensburg  DavidD   Jun-19-07 02:13 PM   #68 
  - Guess what? High schools can't cover every. bit. of. world. history.  WinkyDink   Jun-19-07 10:13 AM   #31 
  - Cut out the Classics, then. The other teachers on this thread are criticising me for not giving them  Leopolds Ghost   Jun-19-07 10:32 AM   #34 
     - Your overall point is right. Best experience ever was teaching "World History"  HamdenRice   Jun-19-07 10:38 AM   #35 
        - I appreciate your thoughts. Actually, therewasn't that many people being snotty.  Leopolds Ghost   Jun-19-07 11:33 AM   #42 
  - So teach the positive things in grade school, the tough stuff in high school & college.  Tigress DEM   Jun-19-07 11:04 AM   #38 
  - I hear you n/t  Leopolds Ghost   Jun-19-07 11:21 AM   #41 
  - Idi Amin and Henry Tudor: compare and contrast  hedgehog   Jun-19-07 11:10 AM   #39 
  - She's a mother-in-law, what do you expect? LOL  Leopolds Ghost   Jun-19-07 11:36 AM   #43 
  - wow- alot to digest, and very good  Bluerthanblue   Jun-19-07 11:53 AM   #48 
  - Guns, Germs, and Steel should be required reading for high-schoolers....  BlooInBloo   Jun-19-07 12:11 PM   #50 
  - Speak for yourself. I taught high school, albeit British Lit., but I also  WinkyDink   Jun-20-07 07:57 AM   #86 
     - The "get this" was intended to be condescending towards modernist historians who  Leopolds Ghost   Jun-20-07 08:05 AM   #87 
  - We teach most of this in NY  Godhumor   Jun-19-07 12:34 PM   #56 
  - This is a big improvement over what I had in New York 30 years ago,  hedgehog   Jun-19-07 01:24 PM   #60 
  - You fucking nailed it with this line here:  ComerPerro   Jun-19-07 01:34 PM   #62 
  - I think even the word itself is dehumanizing  moose65   Jun-19-07 06:30 PM   #80 
  - Sorry, but the "Stuff Your History Teacher Never Told You About" line is bullshit  Bucky   Jun-19-07 01:37 PM   #63 
  - Wow, thanks, this is great to know  treestar   Jun-19-07 01:43 PM   #65 
  - Your discussion of apartheid South Africa is entirely misleading  struggle4progress   Jun-19-07 02:00 PM   #67 
  - Translation: you are a modernist who believe black South Africans have no history and should  Leopolds Ghost   Jun-20-07 07:48 AM   #85 
     - You both have some things right and some things wrong  HamdenRice   Jun-20-07 08:37 AM   #88 
     - I did not claim there was no sophisticated pre-colonial organization.  struggle4progress   Jun-20-07 09:32 PM   #91 
        - Botswana, Lesotho and Swaziland share many historical characteristics  HamdenRice   Jun-21-07 06:49 AM   #94 
           - Your modern history is sloppy. Although a number of small so-called "reserves"  struggle4progress   Jun-21-07 10:51 PM   #95 
              - My history is not "sloppy" but yours is counter-factual  HamdenRice   Jun-22-07 09:55 AM   #96 
                 - Let me see if I have this straight. You claim to have trotted off to South Africa  struggle4progress   Jun-22-07 10:41 PM   #99 
                 - There's no gentle way to break this to you, but  HamdenRice   Jun-23-07 08:09 AM   #103 
                 - On edit (editing period expired)  HamdenRice   Jun-23-07 12:01 PM   #111 
                 - "1970 - The Bantu Homelands Citizenship Act strips blacks of South African citizenship."  struggle4progress   Jun-23-07 12:05 AM   #100 
                 - Maybe you don't believe it, but facts are facts  HamdenRice   Jun-23-07 08:17 AM   #104 
                    - In the reality-based community, we would say you make a distinction without a difference  struggle4progress   Jun-24-07 02:37 PM   #120 
                 - You want to lecture me that "Saying the homelands began in the 1960s is playing semantics; each had  struggle4progress   Jun-23-07 12:09 AM   #101 
                 - I called your post counter-factual because it was riddled with errors  HamdenRice   Jun-23-07 08:37 AM   #107 
                    - I have previously pointed out that NOT all organizations under the UDF umbrella  struggle4progress   Jun-23-07 01:56 PM   #114 
                       - You argument is the rhetorical equivalent of  HamdenRice   Jun-24-07 07:24 AM   #115 
                          - Concerning the UDF and the Freedom Charter  struggle4progress   Jun-24-07 01:46 PM   #117 
                          - Silly word games will not save your argument  HamdenRice   Jun-25-07 09:07 AM   #122 
                             - I didn't claim that no ANC members belonged to the UDF -- I disputed your assertion that  struggle4progress   Jun-25-07 07:59 PM   #127 
                                - To summarize this circular rabbit hole  HamdenRice   Jun-27-07 07:56 AM   #131 
                          - Concerning COSATU and the UDF  struggle4progress   Jun-24-07 01:48 PM   #118 
                          - Huh?  HamdenRice   Jun-25-07 09:11 AM   #123 
                             - Here is why COSATU said it did not join the UDF:  struggle4progress   Jun-25-07 08:25 PM   #129 
                          - Concerning your claim that the UDF the United Democratic Front was "the legal, internal wing  struggle4progress   Jun-24-07 02:16 PM   #119 
                          - Huh?  HamdenRice   Jun-25-07 09:20 AM   #124 
                          - The basic illogic of your argument  HamdenRice   Jun-25-07 10:29 AM   #126 
                          - Somehow you also failed to notice all COSATU's political activity was illegal after February 1988  struggle4progress   Jun-25-07 09:49 PM   #130 
                 - Here is a fairly standard account of the events in Bisho 1992:  struggle4progress   Jun-23-07 12:25 AM   #102 
                    - So now you have acknowledged your error?  HamdenRice   Jun-23-07 08:22 AM   #105 
                       - The Bisho Massacre did not involve a coup attempt but was an attack on a peaceful marchers  struggle4progress   Jun-24-07 03:04 PM   #121 
                          - Irrelevant  HamdenRice   Jun-25-07 09:32 AM   #125 
                             - You are also incorrect about the ANC position on the events in Bisho 1992:  struggle4progress   Jun-25-07 08:13 PM   #128 
     - Addendum re "modernists"  HamdenRice   Jun-20-07 11:31 AM   #90 
     - You should be embarrassed to play such games  struggle4progress   Jun-20-07 09:56 PM   #92 
  - Thanks - looks like a great post  NewJeffCT   Jun-19-07 03:08 PM   #71 
  - ttt n/t  Blue_Tires   Jun-19-07 03:40 PM   #72 
  - I was taught about the Aztecs, Mayans and Incans in school some 40 years ago. I did not  OmmmSweetOmmm   Jun-19-07 06:31 PM   #81 
  - It's mostly a time issue.  Odin2005   Jun-20-07 08:52 AM   #89 
  - Of course, as with all cultures  Jim Warren   Jun-23-07 08:36 AM   #106 
  - Wow, you mean to tell me that  nadinbrzezinski   Jun-23-07 12:05 PM   #112 
  - Not African, but I never learned about the Celts  ncabot22   Jun-23-07 12:32 PM   #113 
 

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