Leopolds Ghost
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Wed Jun-20-07 07:48 AM
Response to Reply #67 |
| 85. Translation: you are a modernist who believe black South Africans have no history and should |
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Edited on Wed Jun-20-07 07:57 AM by Leopolds Ghost
"overcome their archaic ethnic classifications."
I am not amused by your calling me a supporter of Apartheid.
I stopped reading after the part where you declared that there was no such thing as Matabeleland, or as you put it "some ancient kingdom".
Your modernist attitude that Black Africans have no history, that Zimbabweans have no national history pre-colonization, and that the very existence of pre-20c. KwaZulu is an apartheid fiction is outrageous.
and only proves my point in the OP that most historians are modernists or postmodernists who reject the very idea of pre-colonial political divisions as "unattested pre-history."
There have been reams of sociological texts documenting the failure of your "reformist" attitude and demonstrating that "supposed tribal groups" were not conveniently destroyed to make way for your Marxian sociological utopia (or whatever it is you're trying to sell by declaring me a fascist for recognizing the relevance of pre-colonial history.)
Then you have the claim that there are no attested "facts" about these supposed "tribal groups" -- you see the existence of pre-colonisation African nations as pure unattested pre-history of no relevance to the modern day.
Moreover, you mistook my entire OP for a post about the 20th centuiry. The entire post was about pre-colonization era, the 18th and 19th century.
In other words, you are asserting that the pre-existence of political units (KwaZulu, Matabele, Mossi) that correspond with contemporary political regions is a fiction.
This is equivalent to saying that modern-day Lithuania bears no relation to the kingdom of the same name, and that anyone who claims to have an ethnic history as a Lithuanian is a conservative reactionary.
|
| -Supposedly Fictitious Pre-Colonial Kingdoms Your History Teacher Never Told You About |
Leopolds Ghost |
Jun-19-07 08:00 AM |
#0 |
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WOW - great post Thanks for posting! :-) |
papau |
Jun-19-07 08:19 AM |
#1 |
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a lot of this stuff is taught in schools. you musta had backwards teachers nt |
msongs |
Jun-19-07 08:27 AM |
#2 |
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I would guess most of the schools in this country do not teach these things |
unpossibles |
Jun-19-07 08:35 AM |
#4 |
  -
You would guess wrong. |
Bucky |
Jun-19-07 01:41 PM |
#64 |
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I agree... |
Jeff In Milwaukee |
Jun-19-07 08:47 AM |
#6 |
  -
You were in eighth grade in 1994-1996? |
Leopolds Ghost |
Jun-19-07 09:22 AM |
#16 |
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Mr. Giddings in 7th Grade Social Studies... |
Jeff In Milwaukee |
Jun-19-07 09:59 AM |
#27 |
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The pre-Columbian stuff is actually not as big a focus -- the situation in the Lakes Region |
Leopolds Ghost |
Jun-19-07 10:12 AM |
#30 |
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I went to a great public school system |
Marrah_G |
Jun-19-07 10:49 AM |
#36 |
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If you want to insist most Americans have / can afford a great public school like you can, fine. |
Leopolds Ghost |
Jun-19-07 11:15 AM |
#40 |
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Did you get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? |
Jeff In Milwaukee |
Jun-19-07 11:51 AM |
#47 |
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OK, I wasn't trying to edumacate, if people know all this stuff that's perfect. |
Leopolds Ghost |
Jun-19-07 12:22 PM |
#54 |
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I am sure there are plenty of things the teacher didn't have time to cover. |
Marrah_G |
Jun-19-07 12:10 PM |
#49 |
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Marrah, you're definitely lucky to have teachers who are focusing on stuff like this. |
Leopolds Ghost |
Jun-19-07 12:40 PM |
#57 |
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Yup I am lucky |
Marrah_G |
Jun-19-07 12:43 PM |
#58 |
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I don't think it was consciously done |
Marrah_G |
Jun-19-07 03:00 PM |
#70 |
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You do know that the New England states consistently rank high... |
ellisonz |
Jun-19-07 03:50 PM |
#73 |
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And I realize other places might not teach the same way |
Marrah_G |
Jun-19-07 03:56 PM |
#74 |
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Just because people are stupid doesn't mean they weren't taught. |
knitter4democracy |
Jun-23-07 10:55 AM |
#110 |
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I was going to say-- |
knitter4democracy |
Jun-23-07 10:53 AM |
#109 |
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great post. similar things happened in North America |
unpossibles |
Jun-19-07 08:34 AM |
#3 |
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How bout this? |
moose65 |
Jun-19-07 09:03 AM |
#10 |
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Disease actually did a pretty good job of emptying out Native Americans from the Mississippi area. |
mainegreen |
Jun-19-07 09:14 AM |
#13 |
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Kentucky was emptied out by disease in the mid-1700s according to reports. |
Leopolds Ghost |
Jun-19-07 09:56 AM |
#25 |
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Plymouth was built on top of an abandoned village (5-10 yrs, disease). |
ellisonz |
Jun-19-07 03:58 PM |
#75 |
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Disease did it all over the place |
moose65 |
Jun-19-07 06:26 PM |
#79 |
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I would see empty wilderness as wrong |
Marrah_G |
Jun-19-07 12:23 PM |
#55 |
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I've never heard anyone say anything like that |
Marrah_G |
Jun-19-07 09:08 AM |
#11 |
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try growing up in Ohio or Kentucky |
unpossibles |
Jun-19-07 09:26 AM |
#18 |
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I avoid those places |
Marrah_G |
Jun-19-07 10:03 AM |
#29 |
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well, to be fair, no we're not all rubes here |
unpossibles |
Jun-19-07 11:51 AM |
#46 |
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I know you aren't |
Marrah_G |
Jun-19-07 12:13 PM |
#51 |
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The truth about CHEROKEE INDIANS..... |
leftchick |
Jun-24-07 08:00 AM |
#116 |
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The Iroquois was a confederacy and was one of the models our Founding Fathers used |
Larkspur |
Jun-19-07 08:40 AM |
#5 |
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There are some excellent books on "The Trail of Tears" which discuss the history |
Leopolds Ghost |
Jun-19-07 09:18 AM |
#14 |
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The entire Chickasaw and Cherokee fiasco was rooted in the "Wild West" atmosphere of the 20s and 30s |
nealmhughes |
Jun-19-07 07:48 PM |
#82 |
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The Cherokee and the Choctaw tribes were betrayed by Andrew Jackson... |
1monster |
Jun-19-07 09:33 AM |
#21 |
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What an incredibly racist wiki entry. Who wrote it? |
Leopolds Ghost |
Jun-19-07 10:22 AM |
#32 |
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Presto. |
ellisonz |
Jun-19-07 04:23 PM |
#76 |
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There was a very interesting article in... (Smithsonian?) about Pequot rural/urban areas. |
Leopolds Ghost |
Jun-19-07 11:48 AM |
#45 |
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Great post! |
LeftishBrit |
Jun-19-07 08:49 AM |
#7 |
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Judging by the replies, everyone learnt about the Aztec and Incan empires |
muriel_volestrangler |
Jun-19-07 01:28 PM |
#61 |
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I just threw in the Aztec and Incan Empires because they were of interest to the subject at hand |
Leopolds Ghost |
Jun-19-07 01:50 PM |
#66 |
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A few notes on the Conquest of Peru... |
ellisonz |
Jun-19-07 08:57 AM |
#8 |
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Not to mention Pizzarro got whacked before the last Inca ruler... |
Leopolds Ghost |
Jun-19-07 11:39 AM |
#44 |
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I must have had different teachers |
Marrah_G |
Jun-19-07 09:03 AM |
#9 |
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Two things |
Richard D |
Jun-19-07 09:10 AM |
#12 |
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Anthony Bourdain chewed it when he visited Peru |
WakeMeUp |
Jun-19-07 12:18 PM |
#53 |
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When you're in the Andes |
Richard D |
Jun-19-07 02:24 PM |
#69 |
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I teach most of this stuff in my classes. |
Coventina |
Jun-19-07 09:21 AM |
#15 |
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As do I - and with a bit more coherency. |
enlightenment |
Jun-19-07 09:30 AM |
#20 |
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I am sure your students appreciate the snottiness |
Leopolds Ghost |
Jun-19-07 09:50 AM |
#24 |
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I teach at the college level |
enlightenment |
Jun-19-07 04:57 PM |
#77 |
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Apparently you feel only experts can talk about the subject, oh well. |
Leopolds Ghost |
Jun-20-07 07:24 AM |
#83 |
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I really, really appreciate your effort and motives, but |
HamdenRice |
Jun-19-07 09:24 AM |
#17 |
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How is Zulu expansion inexplicable? Like the Mongols and Brits, they invented an effective & deadly |
Leopolds Ghost |
Jun-19-07 09:30 AM |
#19 |
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It's not the "how"; it's the "why" |
HamdenRice |
Jun-19-07 09:57 AM |
#26 |
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I think people have the inherent capacity for evil & peace is best preserved thru inertia. |
Leopolds Ghost |
Jun-19-07 10:01 AM |
#28 |
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I think it is explicable via racism/tribalism |
AngryAmish |
Jun-22-07 10:13 AM |
#98 |
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Guns, Germs, and Steel is the book, but... |
JHB |
Jun-19-07 09:41 AM |
#22 |
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The Ndebele were a Zulu off-shoot. As far as Jared Diamond goes |
Leopolds Ghost |
Jun-19-07 09:44 AM |
#23 |
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Looks like Diamond got southern Africa wrong -- I'll take a look |
HamdenRice |
Jun-19-07 10:25 AM |
#33 |
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Thanks for the clarification. |
Leopolds Ghost |
Jun-19-07 10:51 AM |
#37 |
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Strangest interpretation of the Zulu expansion: It never happened |
HamdenRice |
Jun-19-07 12:13 PM |
#52 |
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It kind of sounds like what happened in the Great Plains w/ the Sioux expansion |
Leopolds Ghost |
Jun-19-07 12:48 PM |
#59 |
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I always though slaving on the west coast was mostly an Arab thing |
AngryAmish |
Jun-22-07 10:03 AM |
#97 |
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Arabs helped start the W. African slave trade |
HamdenRice |
Jun-23-07 09:45 AM |
#108 |
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Uh, the buffalo grass of the Dakota high plains once supported herds of buffalo |
struggle4progress |
Jun-19-07 05:19 PM |
#78 |
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I'm using "desert" in the old-fashioned sense of the word |
Leopolds Ghost |
Jun-20-07 07:30 AM |
#84 |
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The so-called "pioneers" did not want the Western lands for only a few years -- |
struggle4progress |
Jun-20-07 11:08 PM |
#93 |
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Drakensberg, not Drakensburg |
DavidD |
Jun-19-07 02:13 PM |
#68 |
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Guess what? High schools can't cover every. bit. of. world. history. |
WinkyDink |
Jun-19-07 10:13 AM |
#31 |
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Cut out the Classics, then. The other teachers on this thread are criticising me for not giving them |
Leopolds Ghost |
Jun-19-07 10:32 AM |
#34 |
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Your overall point is right. Best experience ever was teaching "World History" |
HamdenRice |
Jun-19-07 10:38 AM |
#35 |
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I appreciate your thoughts. Actually, therewasn't that many people being snotty. |
Leopolds Ghost |
Jun-19-07 11:33 AM |
#42 |
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So teach the positive things in grade school, the tough stuff in high school & college. |
Tigress DEM |
Jun-19-07 11:04 AM |
#38 |
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I hear you n/t |
Leopolds Ghost |
Jun-19-07 11:21 AM |
#41 |
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Idi Amin and Henry Tudor: compare and contrast |
hedgehog |
Jun-19-07 11:10 AM |
#39 |
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She's a mother-in-law, what do you expect? LOL |
Leopolds Ghost |
Jun-19-07 11:36 AM |
#43 |
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wow- alot to digest, and very good |
Bluerthanblue |
Jun-19-07 11:53 AM |
#48 |
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Guns, Germs, and Steel should be required reading for high-schoolers.... |
BlooInBloo |
Jun-19-07 12:11 PM |
#50 |
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Speak for yourself. I taught high school, albeit British Lit., but I also |
WinkyDink |
Jun-20-07 07:57 AM |
#86 |
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The "get this" was intended to be condescending towards modernist historians who |
Leopolds Ghost |
Jun-20-07 08:05 AM |
#87 |
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We teach most of this in NY |
Godhumor |
Jun-19-07 12:34 PM |
#56 |
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This is a big improvement over what I had in New York 30 years ago, |
hedgehog |
Jun-19-07 01:24 PM |
#60 |
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You fucking nailed it with this line here: |
ComerPerro |
Jun-19-07 01:34 PM |
#62 |
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I think even the word itself is dehumanizing |
moose65 |
Jun-19-07 06:30 PM |
#80 |
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Sorry, but the "Stuff Your History Teacher Never Told You About" line is bullshit |
Bucky |
Jun-19-07 01:37 PM |
#63 |
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Wow, thanks, this is great to know |
treestar |
Jun-19-07 01:43 PM |
#65 |
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Your discussion of apartheid South Africa is entirely misleading |
struggle4progress |
Jun-19-07 02:00 PM |
#67 |
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Translation: you are a modernist who believe black South Africans have no history and should |
Leopolds Ghost |
Jun-20-07 07:48 AM |
#85 |
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You both have some things right and some things wrong |
HamdenRice |
Jun-20-07 08:37 AM |
#88 |
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I did not claim there was no sophisticated pre-colonial organization. |
struggle4progress |
Jun-20-07 09:32 PM |
#91 |
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Botswana, Lesotho and Swaziland share many historical characteristics |
HamdenRice |
Jun-21-07 06:49 AM |
#94 |
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Your modern history is sloppy. Although a number of small so-called "reserves" |
struggle4progress |
Jun-21-07 10:51 PM |
#95 |
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My history is not "sloppy" but yours is counter-factual |
HamdenRice |
Jun-22-07 09:55 AM |
#96 |
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Let me see if I have this straight. You claim to have trotted off to South Africa |
struggle4progress |
Jun-22-07 10:41 PM |
#99 |
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There's no gentle way to break this to you, but |
HamdenRice |
Jun-23-07 08:09 AM |
#103 |
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On edit (editing period expired) |
HamdenRice |
Jun-23-07 12:01 PM |
#111 |
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"1970 - The Bantu Homelands Citizenship Act strips blacks of South African citizenship." |
struggle4progress |
Jun-23-07 12:05 AM |
#100 |
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Maybe you don't believe it, but facts are facts |
HamdenRice |
Jun-23-07 08:17 AM |
#104 |
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In the reality-based community, we would say you make a distinction without a difference |
struggle4progress |
Jun-24-07 02:37 PM |
#120 |
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You want to lecture me that "Saying the homelands began in the 1960s is playing semantics; each had |
struggle4progress |
Jun-23-07 12:09 AM |
#101 |
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I called your post counter-factual because it was riddled with errors |
HamdenRice |
Jun-23-07 08:37 AM |
#107 |
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I have previously pointed out that NOT all organizations under the UDF umbrella |
struggle4progress |
Jun-23-07 01:56 PM |
#114 |
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You argument is the rhetorical equivalent of |
HamdenRice |
Jun-24-07 07:24 AM |
#115 |
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Concerning the UDF and the Freedom Charter |
struggle4progress |
Jun-24-07 01:46 PM |
#117 |
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Silly word games will not save your argument |
HamdenRice |
Jun-25-07 09:07 AM |
#122 |
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I didn't claim that no ANC members belonged to the UDF -- I disputed your assertion that |
struggle4progress |
Jun-25-07 07:59 PM |
#127 |
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To summarize this circular rabbit hole |
HamdenRice |
Jun-27-07 07:56 AM |
#131 |
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Concerning COSATU and the UDF |
struggle4progress |
Jun-24-07 01:48 PM |
#118 |
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Huh? |
HamdenRice |
Jun-25-07 09:11 AM |
#123 |
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Here is why COSATU said it did not join the UDF: |
struggle4progress |
Jun-25-07 08:25 PM |
#129 |
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Concerning your claim that the UDF the United Democratic Front was "the legal, internal wing |
struggle4progress |
Jun-24-07 02:16 PM |
#119 |
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Huh? |
HamdenRice |
Jun-25-07 09:20 AM |
#124 |
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The basic illogic of your argument |
HamdenRice |
Jun-25-07 10:29 AM |
#126 |
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Somehow you also failed to notice all COSATU's political activity was illegal after February 1988 |
struggle4progress |
Jun-25-07 09:49 PM |
#130 |
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Here is a fairly standard account of the events in Bisho 1992: |
struggle4progress |
Jun-23-07 12:25 AM |
#102 |
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So now you have acknowledged your error? |
HamdenRice |
Jun-23-07 08:22 AM |
#105 |
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The Bisho Massacre did not involve a coup attempt but was an attack on a peaceful marchers |
struggle4progress |
Jun-24-07 03:04 PM |
#121 |
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Irrelevant |
HamdenRice |
Jun-25-07 09:32 AM |
#125 |
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You are also incorrect about the ANC position on the events in Bisho 1992: |
struggle4progress |
Jun-25-07 08:13 PM |
#128 |
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Addendum re "modernists" |
HamdenRice |
Jun-20-07 11:31 AM |
#90 |
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You should be embarrassed to play such games |
struggle4progress |
Jun-20-07 09:56 PM |
#92 |
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Thanks - looks like a great post |
NewJeffCT |
Jun-19-07 03:08 PM |
#71 |
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ttt n/t |
Blue_Tires |
Jun-19-07 03:40 PM |
#72 |
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I was taught about the Aztecs, Mayans and Incans in school some 40 years ago. I did not |
OmmmSweetOmmm |
Jun-19-07 06:31 PM |
#81 |
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It's mostly a time issue. |
Odin2005 |
Jun-20-07 08:52 AM |
#89 |
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Of course, as with all cultures |
Jim Warren |
Jun-23-07 08:36 AM |
#106 |
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Wow, you mean to tell me that |
nadinbrzezinski |
Jun-23-07 12:05 PM |
#112 |
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Not African, but I never learned about the Celts |
ncabot22 |
Jun-23-07 12:32 PM |
#113 |