L. Coyote
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Sun Jun-17-07 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #115 |
| 134. You raise an important question and issue. |
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When a nation controls immigration, by not allowing illegal labor and allowing legal migration, there is a control and selection of who constitutes the members of a society. When illegal immigration is tolerated de facto, what happened is the society became composed of an ever larger numbers of people who do not respect the laws working for profiteers who also do not obey the laws. Are we going to reward both of these groups?
If we are to add more workers to the membership of our society, there are a lot of law abiding, skilled, educated people we could choose from, in Mexico and elsewhere. There should be some criteria of who is an acceptable person to grant a workers visa to. Violation of our laws can certainly be a disqualifier, given it is our choice and we have other options.
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| -New Immigration Bill has provisions to grant legal status to the 12 million |
L. Coyote |
Jun-15-07 01:49 PM |
#0 |
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The Dems should be fighting for complete amnesty. |
Tierra_y_Libertad |
Jun-15-07 01:52 PM |
#1 |
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I support Complete Amnesty also |
Madspirit |
Jun-15-07 04:00 PM |
#15 |
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If they are not allowed to work illegally, they will go somewhere else, not? |
L. Coyote |
Jun-15-07 05:08 PM |
#24 |
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blabity blabity blah |
Madspirit |
Jun-15-07 05:11 PM |
#25 |
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Hello. It is a crime to enter the United States without a visa. |
L. Coyote |
Jun-15-07 11:29 PM |
#30 |
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Nearly half of the population of the U.S. has knowingly violated marijuana laws |
Telly Savalas |
Jun-16-07 12:03 AM |
#32 |
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So if I follow that logic |
Jim Warren |
Jun-16-07 01:41 AM |
#36 |
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Do I hear crickets? nt |
mycritters2 |
Jun-16-07 08:12 PM |
#89 |
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You're moving the goalposts. |
Telly Savalas |
Jun-17-07 10:26 AM |
#120 |
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Of course it.s bullshit |
Jim Warren |
Jun-18-07 01:01 AM |
#136 |
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U: "and you Nativists know it." Isn't name calling is the last resort of failed argumentation. |
L. Coyote |
Jun-20-07 12:00 AM |
#150 |
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blabity blabity blah |
Jim Warren |
Jun-16-07 01:32 AM |
#35 |
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It's a civil offense |
proud2Blib |
Jun-16-07 01:46 AM |
#37 |
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As is treason........nt |
Jim Warren |
Jun-16-07 01:55 AM |
#38 |
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It's more than a stretch to compare treeason |
proud2Blib |
Jun-16-07 02:59 AM |
#39 |
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I don't think so. |
mycritters2 |
Jun-16-07 08:13 PM |
#90 |
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You're right! |
LanternWaste |
Jun-18-07 01:35 PM |
#144 |
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Actually, it is not a crime |
Freddie Stubbs |
Jun-19-07 08:40 AM |
#149 |
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Harboring criminals is illegal also. I guess a little jail time won't hurt you. |
dkofos |
Jun-16-07 03:48 PM |
#67 |
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Yea, but Madspirit won't go to hell for not helping the least as you will... |
pingzing58 |
Jun-17-07 01:55 AM |
#107 |
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What? Oh...... that's right |
Jim Warren |
Jun-17-07 02:42 AM |
#110 |
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lol |
pingzing58 |
Jun-17-07 02:43 AM |
#111 |
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Don't believe in hell. |
dkofos |
Jun-17-07 08:31 AM |
#114 |
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Deleted message |
Name removed |
Jun-17-07 02:34 AM |
#109 |
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undercriminalization too |
mema42 |
Jun-17-07 09:28 AM |
#115 |
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You raise an important question and issue. |
L. Coyote |
Jun-17-07 08:28 PM |
#134 |
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read the post |
mema42 |
Jun-16-07 05:28 PM |
#73 |
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So because you've got some illegal buddies, |
Anaxamander |
Jun-16-07 06:28 PM |
#78 |
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Then what??? What is to be done with the NEXT TWELVE MILLION? |
TahitiNut |
Jun-16-07 12:45 PM |
#50 |
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Keep out the Irish! Keep out the Chinese! Keep out the Mexicans! |
pampango |
Jun-16-07 12:48 PM |
#51 |
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Got nothing, huh? |
TahitiNut |
Jun-16-07 12:58 PM |
#52 |
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Didn't know the Irish and Chinese came over on slave ships, too. |
pampango |
Jun-16-07 02:44 PM |
#57 |
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I guess you don't give a shit about the Irish-Americans, Chinese-Americans, ... |
TahitiNut |
Jun-16-07 03:06 PM |
#59 |
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focus? And remember, the "illegal migrants" came here over 10,000 years ago!! |
L. Coyote |
Jun-16-07 03:13 PM |
#60 |
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My point was not that you were a racist. |
pampango |
Jun-16-07 03:20 PM |
#64 |
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I support LEGAL immigration. |
TahitiNut |
Jun-16-07 06:18 PM |
#75 |
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good points there |
Blue_Tires |
Jun-16-07 08:41 PM |
#95 |
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Thanks. Appreciate it. |
TahitiNut |
Jun-16-07 09:56 PM |
#96 |
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Kudos |
Jim Warren |
Jun-16-07 11:22 PM |
#100 |
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I really appreciate your generosity. Even when I reread 'em I still feel I'm falling short. |
TahitiNut |
Jun-17-07 12:10 AM |
#101 |
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U: "EVERY citizen should take part in forming our laws and complying with them." |
L. Coyote |
Jun-17-07 12:23 AM |
#102 |
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The economy should serve the people, NOT vice versa. |
TahitiNut |
Jun-17-07 12:43 AM |
#103 |
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I see we criticize the same side of the contradiction. Where is your response to |
L. Coyote |
Jun-17-07 01:16 AM |
#104 |
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As I've tried to make clear (and apparently failed), we must ENFORCE and COMPLY with |
TahitiNut |
Jun-17-07 11:02 AM |
#122 |
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ABSOLUTELY, nd very well-stated. And, yes, let's get evidence on the employers |
L. Coyote |
Jun-17-07 03:43 PM |
#131 |
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Again........IMHO........spot on. |
Jim Warren |
Jun-17-07 01:31 AM |
#105 |
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Perhaps the one thing that you and I could agree on would be |
pampango |
Jun-17-07 10:16 AM |
#119 |
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wonderfully put |
mema42 |
Jun-16-07 10:20 PM |
#97 |
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not racism or nativism |
mema42 |
Jun-17-07 10:03 AM |
#117 |
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Thank you. That's exactly how I view it. |
TahitiNut |
Jun-17-07 11:17 AM |
#123 |
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And, the solution is ? |
Tierra_y_Libertad |
Jun-16-07 04:21 PM |
#69 |
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Profits |
mema42 |
Jun-16-07 05:33 PM |
#74 |
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Well, it's profits for "owners" and a fraction of the value of their labor to workers. |
TahitiNut |
Jun-16-07 10:51 PM |
#98 |
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profits for the rich |
mema42 |
Jun-17-07 09:35 AM |
#116 |
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See my post #75 above ... |
TahitiNut |
Jun-16-07 06:24 PM |
#77 |
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Why not invite all 6 Billion + people in the world to become citizens?? |
dkofos |
Jun-16-07 03:44 PM |
#66 |
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Go ahead. |
Tierra_y_Libertad |
Jun-16-07 04:21 PM |
#70 |
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Just guessing, but did you read the OP at all? |
L. Coyote |
Jun-18-07 11:25 PM |
#146 |
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No. I don't understand where your 'new, non-voting class of workers' comes from. They're already |
sinkingfeeling |
Jun-15-07 01:57 PM |
#2 |
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The provisions to give current non-visa migrants legal status determines when and how |
L. Coyote |
Jun-15-07 02:13 PM |
#4 |
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Nothing like creating a slave class... |
LostInAnomie |
Jun-15-07 02:03 PM |
#3 |
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There are efforts underway to create political traps with legislation |
L. Coyote |
Jun-15-07 02:16 PM |
#5 |
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Well, anyone that votes for it deserves to be blown up in that minefield. |
LostInAnomie |
Jun-15-07 02:31 PM |
#6 |
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Indeed. Enforcement would have prevented the problem. Who benefitted? |
L. Coyote |
Jun-15-07 02:38 PM |
#7 |
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Exactly Right |
NeedleCast |
Jun-17-07 10:35 AM |
#121 |
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Giving them legal status means that they can't be paid slave wages |
Hippo_Tron |
Jun-15-07 02:42 PM |
#8 |
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There's a lot of incentive to hire an immigrant willing to work construction... |
LostInAnomie |
Jun-15-07 02:50 PM |
#9 |
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So even legal immigrants are bad for the country? n/t |
pampango |
Jun-15-07 03:01 PM |
#10 |
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Depends on what you are talking about. |
LostInAnomie |
Jun-15-07 03:28 PM |
#11 |
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Hah, but to get the diversity and richness into our culture, |
pampango |
Jun-15-07 03:43 PM |
#12 |
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And we do accept immigrants. |
LostInAnomie |
Jun-15-07 03:58 PM |
#14 |
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They are ALREADY here. |
Madspirit |
Jun-15-07 04:01 PM |
#16 |
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And I support making it impossible for illegal immigrants to find work. |
LostInAnomie |
Jun-15-07 04:11 PM |
#18 |
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Well, we will have to step out back then |
Madspirit |
Jun-15-07 05:13 PM |
#26 |
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I guess so, because I support my family and friends... |
LostInAnomie |
Jun-15-07 05:43 PM |
#29 |
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You may be happy to hear that Tom Tancredo agrees with you |
pampango |
Jun-16-07 06:02 AM |
#41 |
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Construction work pay has been frozen for more than 20 years due to the underground economy. |
L. Coyote |
Jun-16-07 09:28 AM |
#43 |
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It's very similar to the way "scabs" were used to destroy organized labor. |
TahitiNut |
Jun-16-07 03:15 PM |
#61 |
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Thank you |
snailly |
Jun-18-07 11:31 PM |
#147 |
| -
ITIN |
mema42 |
Jun-16-07 02:03 PM |
#54 |
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guest workers |
mema42 |
Jun-16-07 02:01 PM |
#53 |
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You've noticed the strong anti-immigrant bias... |
Bridget Burke |
Jun-18-07 06:28 AM |
#140 |
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Anti-immigration isn't bias if it is a reasoned position, if it's just opposition. |
L. Coyote |
Jun-18-07 09:22 AM |
#142 |
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But 12 million minimum wage payed workers will still screw up the middle class, and others |
conspirator |
Jun-16-07 10:30 AM |
#45 |
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Consider who is lobbying for this and who will benefit. Business interests |
L. Coyote |
Jun-15-07 03:51 PM |
#13 |
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My Friends |
Madspirit |
Jun-15-07 04:02 PM |
#17 |
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You and the US Chamber of Commerce |
mycritters2 |
Jun-15-07 04:18 PM |
#19 |
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FOLLOW THE MONEY Lobbyists & $$$ BILLIONS with a B, BBBillions!!! |
L. Coyote |
Jun-15-07 04:28 PM |
#21 |
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Inane Babbling |
Madspirit |
Jun-15-07 05:15 PM |
#27 |
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Finally, the "corporate shill" accusation. |
pampango |
Jun-16-07 05:46 AM |
#40 |
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Congrats, Now you're on their "wing-nut shill" list too. Give yourself a metal. |
L. Coyote |
Jun-16-07 09:23 AM |
#42 |
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Of course, given the alternative. |
L. Coyote |
Jun-15-07 04:24 PM |
#20 |
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It's not "rewarding their crimininality"... |
High Plains |
Jun-17-07 12:14 PM |
#125 |
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What happens if illegal employment ends? Illegal workers will go away. |
L. Coyote |
Jun-17-07 03:49 PM |
#132 |
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As long as we're dealing in generalizations, I have a concern ... |
TahitiNut |
Jun-17-07 04:45 PM |
#133 |
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Bush is holding border security and ... |
Babel_17 |
Jun-15-07 04:49 PM |
#22 |
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Very good points. The struggle will be over the amendments, reshaping the bill. |
L. Coyote |
Jun-15-07 05:03 PM |
#23 |
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This is a horrible bill; effectively creates a non-ending, second-class, slave-labor |
AzDar |
Jun-15-07 05:25 PM |
#28 |
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Alot of people don't understand that making illegals legal without stopping the employers... |
Marrah_G |
Jun-15-07 11:47 PM |
#31 |
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Excellent Points. It all happened before, just as you say. |
L. Coyote |
Jun-16-07 12:16 AM |
#33 |
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yup, it has to be a multi pronged approach |
mema42 |
Jun-16-07 02:09 PM |
#55 |
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U.S. Chamber of Commerce openly advocates amnesty for illegal aliens |
L. Coyote |
Jun-16-07 12:59 AM |
#34 |
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What disturbs me are the provisions in the bill that aren't being aired in the open. |
OmmmSweetOmmm |
Jun-16-07 09:29 AM |
#44 |
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RealID |
mema42 |
Jun-16-07 02:11 PM |
#56 |
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And being a life-long Democrat, it freaks me out that the Democrats are backing this bill. I feel |
OmmmSweetOmmm |
Jun-16-07 02:52 PM |
#58 |
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Watch the amendments debate. Did you see the reaction to Dorgan's amendment. |
L. Coyote |
Jun-16-07 03:17 PM |
#62 |
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And I feel like pinching my fingers here (like biting my tongue), Dorgan is right. |
OmmmSweetOmmm |
Jun-16-07 03:54 PM |
#68 |
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I saw the debate. Dorgan nailed it like he does the big oil issue. |
L. Coyote |
Jun-16-07 08:18 PM |
#91 |
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I was looking for Dorgan on YouTube and found this clip discussing his |
OmmmSweetOmmm |
Jun-17-07 07:19 AM |
#113 |
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1. It's a step forward. 2.It's better than the alternative. 3.It's a NIXON-in-China opportunity. |
UTUSN |
Jun-16-07 10:48 AM |
#46 |
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Something has to be done. The OP poses the question of ramifications to democracy. |
L. Coyote |
Jun-16-07 11:58 AM |
#47 |
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As I said, the clear inequalities will have to be faced by SCOTUS |
UTUSN |
Jun-16-07 12:18 PM |
#48 |
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The amendments to the proposed legislation will be an interesting debate |
L. Coyote |
Jun-16-07 12:34 PM |
#49 |
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not sure about this |
mema42 |
Jun-16-07 03:40 PM |
#65 |
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Why are you not sure of "what is trying to be said?" It might even be over-simplified |
UTUSN |
Jun-16-07 04:28 PM |
#71 |
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part of what the OP mentioned was the right to vote |
mema42 |
Jun-16-07 05:23 PM |
#72 |
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I think |
mema42 |
Jun-16-07 03:19 PM |
#63 |
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Guest worker programs should include strong wage protections for U.S. workers |
L. Coyote |
Jun-16-07 06:24 PM |
#76 |
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It seems demanding that employers pay everyone the same wage |
Cleita |
Jun-16-07 06:30 PM |
#81 |
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All Americans should be because even if they don't care about |
Cleita |
Jun-16-07 06:28 PM |
#79 |
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you mean the southern democrats? |
mema42 |
Jun-16-07 06:46 PM |
#84 |
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Sunset provision on guest worker program passes |
L. Coyote |
Jun-16-07 06:29 PM |
#80 |
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Sen. Dorgan: Unlabor Day - The immigration bill will hurt American workers |
L. Coyote |
Jun-16-07 06:34 PM |
#82 |
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What do understand by "real border security?" |
pingzing58 |
Jun-17-07 12:45 PM |
#126 |
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You are right. Is the $4.4 BILLION in the current legislation pure cronyism |
L. Coyote |
Jun-17-07 12:55 PM |
#127 |
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I've been searching for an argument against the funding for a fence and yours is excellent. |
pingzing58 |
Jun-17-07 01:11 PM |
#128 |
| -
good thing it is gone |
mema42 |
Jun-16-07 06:47 PM |
#85 |
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The sunset provision passed, but the guest worker provision was not amended out. |
L. Coyote |
Jun-16-07 07:14 PM |
#87 |
| -
Bush defends immigration bill, guest worker program |
L. Coyote |
Jun-16-07 06:45 PM |
#83 |
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Registration, temporary cards, "Z" visas, eight year waits, barriers to citizenship |
L. Coyote |
Jun-16-07 06:54 PM |
#86 |
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touchback and more |
mema42 |
Jun-16-07 07:45 PM |
#88 |
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I have know idea what the Dems are thinking about on this |
lovuian |
Jun-16-07 08:22 PM |
#92 |
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Watch the Senate on C-SPAN when it goes back to the floor, and read the Congressional Record. |
L. Coyote |
Jun-16-07 08:30 PM |
#94 |
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It's about dealing with reality! It's about dealing with things as they are. |
pingzing58 |
Jun-17-07 02:01 AM |
#108 |
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ironically, Europe is having its own issues |
Blue_Tires |
Jun-16-07 08:25 PM |
#93 |
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I'm very conservative on illegal immigration. |
MrSlayer |
Jun-16-07 10:58 PM |
#99 |
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Why? |
pingzing58 |
Jun-17-07 01:52 AM |
#106 |
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I don't blame the Mexicans. |
Xap |
Jun-17-07 03:17 AM |
#112 |
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Blaming corporations is a simplificatioin. Lots of independent businessmen too. |
L. Coyote |
Jun-17-07 10:11 AM |
#118 |
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Fwiw, I work with many legal immigrants |
Babel_17 |
Jun-17-07 11:47 AM |
#124 |
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TEXT Senate Bill 1348 = MUST READ |
L. Coyote |
Jun-17-07 02:01 PM |
#129 |
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A thread for those who have read the proposed language |
L. Coyote |
Jun-17-07 02:20 PM |
#130 |
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I read it this afternoon, all 628 pages, but why? |
Cleita |
Jun-18-07 01:16 AM |
#138 |
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It is going to the Senate Floor for debate, and amendments will be offered. |
L. Coyote |
Jun-18-07 09:14 AM |
#141 |
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I posted my thoughts to you someplace else, but here I'll do it again. |
Cleita |
Jun-18-07 12:50 PM |
#143 |
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The good and lenghty comments are apprecited. |
L. Coyote |
Jun-18-07 01:50 PM |
#145 |
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Pretty good thread here |
Lasher |
Jun-17-07 10:32 PM |
#135 |
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Provision: FAILURE TO OBEY LAWFUL ORDERS up to 5 years in prison. |
L. Coyote |
Jun-18-07 01:05 AM |
#137 |
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I also support complete amnesty and citizenship |
hogwyld |
Jun-18-07 02:39 AM |
#139 |
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The path to citizenship should not be delayed by the bill, but, should everyone |
L. Coyote |
Jun-19-07 08:38 AM |
#148 |
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