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Babel_17 Donating Member (948 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-17-07 11:47 AM
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124. Fwiw, I work with many legal immigrants
Edited on Sun Jun-17-07 11:51 AM by Babel_17
It's always been a non-issue for me. In fact, most of my time has been spent with foremen who were immigrants. The issue is when a very large unregulated wave of illegal workers is enticed in by illegal employers. Legal immigration is basically great because it's planned to benefit everyone.

I'm going to guess that this issue affects people personally and directly depending on where they live and work. The overall issue is one we all have to face. I'm just hoping this congress does a better job with this complex conglomeration of legislation than the other congresses did with the legislation Bushco was pushing at their respective times.

Imo it should be a total compromise. And it should be based on truth. The truth is that we are here, now, faced with this tough bill because government has consistently dropped the ball on this over these last several years. Well, it's time to do hard work and admit to the american people, and businesses, and the workers who've been in limbo, that they're not going to get everything they want. There are conflicting demands and responsibilities.

This is an accountability moment and I'll be damned if I'll accept a half-assed piece of legislation that ignores the reality on the ground and which is based mostly on political positioning. Politicians, as a class, shouldn't be allowed to screw over the people this legislation affects because they are afraid of the consequences to themselves. Cliff's Notes: Sometimes you have to kick and scream to get good government.

P.S. This better be the last time we have to do a major fix of the system as a result of criminal negligence.

Edit: Changed "foreman" to "foremen", the poor grammar was beyond fixing. :)
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  -New Immigration Bill has provisions to grant legal status to the 12 million L. Coyote  Jun-15-07 01:49 PM   #0 
  - The Dems should be fighting for complete amnesty.  Tierra_y_Libertad   Jun-15-07 01:52 PM   #1 
  - I support Complete Amnesty also  Madspirit   Jun-15-07 04:00 PM   #15 
  - If they are not allowed to work illegally, they will go somewhere else, not?  L. Coyote   Jun-15-07 05:08 PM   #24 
  - blabity blabity blah  Madspirit   Jun-15-07 05:11 PM   #25 
  - Hello. It is a crime to enter the United States without a visa.  L. Coyote   Jun-15-07 11:29 PM   #30 
  - Nearly half of the population of the U.S. has knowingly violated marijuana laws  Telly Savalas   Jun-16-07 12:03 AM   #32 
  - So if I follow that logic  Jim Warren   Jun-16-07 01:41 AM   #36 
     - Do I hear crickets? nt  mycritters2   Jun-16-07 08:12 PM   #89 
     - You're moving the goalposts.  Telly Savalas   Jun-17-07 10:26 AM   #120 
        - Of course it.s bullshit  Jim Warren   Jun-18-07 01:01 AM   #136 
        - U: "and you Nativists know it." Isn't name calling is the last resort of failed argumentation.  L. Coyote   Jun-20-07 12:00 AM   #150 
  - blabity blabity blah  Jim Warren   Jun-16-07 01:32 AM   #35 
  - It's a civil offense  proud2Blib   Jun-16-07 01:46 AM   #37 
  - As is treason........nt  Jim Warren   Jun-16-07 01:55 AM   #38 
     - It's more than a stretch to compare treeason  proud2Blib   Jun-16-07 02:59 AM   #39 
        - I don't think so.  mycritters2   Jun-16-07 08:13 PM   #90 
  - You're right!  LanternWaste   Jun-18-07 01:35 PM   #144 
  - Actually, it is not a crime  Freddie Stubbs   Jun-19-07 08:40 AM   #149 
  - Harboring criminals is illegal also. I guess a little jail time won't hurt you.  dkofos   Jun-16-07 03:48 PM   #67 
     - Yea, but Madspirit won't go to hell for not helping the least as you will...  pingzing58   Jun-17-07 01:55 AM   #107 
        - What? Oh...... that's right  Jim Warren   Jun-17-07 02:42 AM   #110 
        - lol  pingzing58   Jun-17-07 02:43 AM   #111 
        - Don't believe in hell.  dkofos   Jun-17-07 08:31 AM   #114 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Jun-17-07 02:34 AM   #109 
     - undercriminalization too  mema42   Jun-17-07 09:28 AM   #115 
        - You raise an important question and issue.  L. Coyote   Jun-17-07 08:28 PM   #134 
  - read the post  mema42   Jun-16-07 05:28 PM   #73 
  - So because you've got some illegal buddies,  Anaxamander   Jun-16-07 06:28 PM   #78 
  - Then what??? What is to be done with the NEXT TWELVE MILLION?  TahitiNut   Jun-16-07 12:45 PM   #50 
  - Keep out the Irish! Keep out the Chinese! Keep out the Mexicans!  pampango   Jun-16-07 12:48 PM   #51 
  - Got nothing, huh?  TahitiNut   Jun-16-07 12:58 PM   #52 
     - Didn't know the Irish and Chinese came over on slave ships, too.  pampango   Jun-16-07 02:44 PM   #57 
        - I guess you don't give a shit about the Irish-Americans, Chinese-Americans, ...  TahitiNut   Jun-16-07 03:06 PM   #59 
           - focus? And remember, the "illegal migrants" came here over 10,000 years ago!!  L. Coyote   Jun-16-07 03:13 PM   #60 
           - My point was not that you were a racist.  pampango   Jun-16-07 03:20 PM   #64 
              - I support LEGAL immigration.  TahitiNut   Jun-16-07 06:18 PM   #75 
              - good points there  Blue_Tires   Jun-16-07 08:41 PM   #95 
              - Thanks. Appreciate it.  TahitiNut   Jun-16-07 09:56 PM   #96 
                 - Kudos  Jim Warren   Jun-16-07 11:22 PM   #100 
                    - I really appreciate your generosity. Even when I reread 'em I still feel I'm falling short.  TahitiNut   Jun-17-07 12:10 AM   #101 
                       - U: "EVERY citizen should take part in forming our laws and complying with them."  L. Coyote   Jun-17-07 12:23 AM   #102 
                       - The economy should serve the people, NOT vice versa.  TahitiNut   Jun-17-07 12:43 AM   #103 
                          - I see we criticize the same side of the contradiction. Where is your response to  L. Coyote   Jun-17-07 01:16 AM   #104 
                             - As I've tried to make clear (and apparently failed), we must ENFORCE and COMPLY with  TahitiNut   Jun-17-07 11:02 AM   #122 
                                - ABSOLUTELY, nd very well-stated. And, yes, let's get evidence on the employers  L. Coyote   Jun-17-07 03:43 PM   #131 
                       - on.  Jim Warren   Jun-17-07 01:31 AM   #105 
                          - Perhaps the one thing that you and I could agree on would be  pampango   Jun-17-07 10:16 AM   #119 
              - wonderfully put  mema42   Jun-16-07 10:20 PM   #97 
              - not racism or nativism  mema42   Jun-17-07 10:03 AM   #117 
                 - Thank you. That's exactly how I view it.  TahitiNut   Jun-17-07 11:17 AM   #123 
  - And, the solution is ?  Tierra_y_Libertad   Jun-16-07 04:21 PM   #69 
     - Profits  mema42   Jun-16-07 05:33 PM   #74 
     - Well, it's profits for "owners" and a fraction of the value of their labor to workers.  TahitiNut   Jun-16-07 10:51 PM   #98 
        - profits for the rich  mema42   Jun-17-07 09:35 AM   #116 
     - See my post #75 above ...  TahitiNut   Jun-16-07 06:24 PM   #77 
  - Why not invite all 6 Billion + people in the world to become citizens??  dkofos   Jun-16-07 03:44 PM   #66 
     - Go ahead.  Tierra_y_Libertad   Jun-16-07 04:21 PM   #70 
     - Just guessing, but did you read the OP at all?  L. Coyote   Jun-18-07 11:25 PM   #146 
  - No. I don't understand where your 'new, non-voting class of workers' comes from. They're already  sinkingfeeling   Jun-15-07 01:57 PM   #2 
  - The provisions to give current non-visa migrants legal status determines when and how  L. Coyote   Jun-15-07 02:13 PM   #4 
  - Nothing like creating a slave class...  LostInAnomie   Jun-15-07 02:03 PM   #3 
  - There are efforts underway to create political traps with legislation  L. Coyote   Jun-15-07 02:16 PM   #5 
  - Well, anyone that votes for it deserves to be blown up in that minefield.  LostInAnomie   Jun-15-07 02:31 PM   #6 
     - Indeed. Enforcement would have prevented the problem. Who benefitted?  L. Coyote   Jun-15-07 02:38 PM   #7 
     - Exactly Right  NeedleCast   Jun-17-07 10:35 AM   #121 
  - Giving them legal status means that they can't be paid slave wages  Hippo_Tron   Jun-15-07 02:42 PM   #8 
     - There's a lot of incentive to hire an immigrant willing to work construction...  LostInAnomie   Jun-15-07 02:50 PM   #9 
     - So even legal immigrants are bad for the country? n/t  pampango   Jun-15-07 03:01 PM   #10 
        - Depends on what you are talking about.  LostInAnomie   Jun-15-07 03:28 PM   #11 
        - Hah, but to get the diversity and richness into our culture,  pampango   Jun-15-07 03:43 PM   #12 
           - And we do accept immigrants.  LostInAnomie   Jun-15-07 03:58 PM   #14 
              - They are ALREADY here.  Madspirit   Jun-15-07 04:01 PM   #16 
                 - And I support making it impossible for illegal immigrants to find work.  LostInAnomie   Jun-15-07 04:11 PM   #18 
                    - Well, we will have to step out back then  Madspirit   Jun-15-07 05:13 PM   #26 
                       - I guess so, because I support my family and friends...  LostInAnomie   Jun-15-07 05:43 PM   #29 
                       - You may be happy to hear that Tom Tancredo agrees with you  pampango   Jun-16-07 06:02 AM   #41 
                       - Construction work pay has been frozen for more than 20 years due to the underground economy.  L. Coyote   Jun-16-07 09:28 AM   #43 
                       - It's very similar to the way "scabs" were used to destroy organized labor.  TahitiNut   Jun-16-07 03:15 PM   #61 
                       - Thank you  snailly   Jun-18-07 11:31 PM   #147 
                       - ITIN  mema42   Jun-16-07 02:03 PM   #54 
        - guest workers  mema42   Jun-16-07 02:01 PM   #53 
        - You've noticed the strong anti-immigrant bias...  Bridget Burke   Jun-18-07 06:28 AM   #140 
           - Anti-immigration isn't bias if it is a reasoned position, if it's just opposition.  L. Coyote   Jun-18-07 09:22 AM   #142 
     - But 12 million minimum wage payed workers will still screw up the middle class, and others  conspirator   Jun-16-07 10:30 AM   #45 
  - Consider who is lobbying for this and who will benefit. Business interests  L. Coyote   Jun-15-07 03:51 PM   #13 
  - My Friends  Madspirit   Jun-15-07 04:02 PM   #17 
     - You and the US Chamber of Commerce  mycritters2   Jun-15-07 04:18 PM   #19 
     - FOLLOW THE MONEY Lobbyists & $$$ BILLIONS with a B, BBBillions!!!  L. Coyote   Jun-15-07 04:28 PM   #21 
     - Inane Babbling  Madspirit   Jun-15-07 05:15 PM   #27 
     - Finally, the "corporate shill" accusation.  pampango   Jun-16-07 05:46 AM   #40 
        - Congrats, Now you're on their "wing-nut shill" list too. Give yourself a metal.  L. Coyote   Jun-16-07 09:23 AM   #42 
     - Of course, given the alternative.  L. Coyote   Jun-15-07 04:24 PM   #20 
        - It's not "rewarding their crimininality"...  High Plains   Jun-17-07 12:14 PM   #125 
           - What happens if illegal employment ends? Illegal workers will go away.  L. Coyote   Jun-17-07 03:49 PM   #132 
              - As long as we're dealing in generalizations, I have a concern ...  TahitiNut   Jun-17-07 04:45 PM   #133 
  - Bush is holding border security and ...  Babel_17   Jun-15-07 04:49 PM   #22 
  - Very good points. The struggle will be over the amendments, reshaping the bill.  L. Coyote   Jun-15-07 05:03 PM   #23 
  - This is a horrible bill; effectively creates a non-ending, second-class, slave-labor  AzDar   Jun-15-07 05:25 PM   #28 
  - Alot of people don't understand that making illegals legal without stopping the employers...  Marrah_G   Jun-15-07 11:47 PM   #31 
  - Excellent Points. It all happened before, just as you say.  L. Coyote   Jun-16-07 12:16 AM   #33 
  - yup, it has to be a multi pronged approach  mema42   Jun-16-07 02:09 PM   #55 
  - U.S. Chamber of Commerce openly advocates amnesty for illegal aliens  L. Coyote   Jun-16-07 12:59 AM   #34 
  - What disturbs me are the provisions in the bill that aren't being aired in the open.  OmmmSweetOmmm   Jun-16-07 09:29 AM   #44 
  - RealID  mema42   Jun-16-07 02:11 PM   #56 
     - And being a life-long Democrat, it freaks me out that the Democrats are backing this bill. I feel  OmmmSweetOmmm   Jun-16-07 02:52 PM   #58 
        - Watch the amendments debate. Did you see the reaction to Dorgan's amendment.  L. Coyote   Jun-16-07 03:17 PM   #62 
           - And I feel like pinching my fingers here (like biting my tongue), Dorgan is right.  OmmmSweetOmmm   Jun-16-07 03:54 PM   #68 
              - I saw the debate. Dorgan nailed it like he does the big oil issue.  L. Coyote   Jun-16-07 08:18 PM   #91 
                 - I was looking for Dorgan on YouTube and found this clip discussing his  OmmmSweetOmmm   Jun-17-07 07:19 AM   #113 
  - 1. It's a step forward. 2.It's better than the alternative. 3.It's a NIXON-in-China opportunity.  UTUSN   Jun-16-07 10:48 AM   #46 
  - Something has to be done. The OP poses the question of ramifications to democracy.  L. Coyote   Jun-16-07 11:58 AM   #47 
  - As I said, the clear inequalities will have to be faced by SCOTUS  UTUSN   Jun-16-07 12:18 PM   #48 
     - The amendments to the proposed legislation will be an interesting debate  L. Coyote   Jun-16-07 12:34 PM   #49 
     - not sure about this  mema42   Jun-16-07 03:40 PM   #65 
        - Why are you not sure of "what is trying to be said?" It might even be over-simplified  UTUSN   Jun-16-07 04:28 PM   #71 
           - part of what the OP mentioned was the right to vote  mema42   Jun-16-07 05:23 PM   #72 
  - I think  mema42   Jun-16-07 03:19 PM   #63 
  - Guest worker programs should include strong wage protections for U.S. workers  L. Coyote   Jun-16-07 06:24 PM   #76 
  - It seems demanding that employers pay everyone the same wage  Cleita   Jun-16-07 06:30 PM   #81 
  - All Americans should be because even if they don't care about  Cleita   Jun-16-07 06:28 PM   #79 
  - you mean the southern democrats?  mema42   Jun-16-07 06:46 PM   #84 
  - Sunset provision on guest worker program passes  L. Coyote   Jun-16-07 06:29 PM   #80 
  - Sen. Dorgan: Unlabor Day - The immigration bill will hurt American workers  L. Coyote   Jun-16-07 06:34 PM   #82 
  - What do understand by "real border security?"  pingzing58   Jun-17-07 12:45 PM   #126 
     - You are right. Is the $4.4 BILLION in the current legislation pure cronyism  L. Coyote   Jun-17-07 12:55 PM   #127 
        - I've been searching for an argument against the funding for a fence and yours is excellent.  pingzing58   Jun-17-07 01:11 PM   #128 
  - good thing it is gone  mema42   Jun-16-07 06:47 PM   #85 
     - The sunset provision passed, but the guest worker provision was not amended out.  L. Coyote   Jun-16-07 07:14 PM   #87 
  - Bush defends immigration bill, guest worker program  L. Coyote   Jun-16-07 06:45 PM   #83 
  - Registration, temporary cards, "Z" visas, eight year waits, barriers to citizenship  L. Coyote   Jun-16-07 06:54 PM   #86 
  - touchback and more  mema42   Jun-16-07 07:45 PM   #88 
  - I have know idea what the Dems are thinking about on this  lovuian   Jun-16-07 08:22 PM   #92 
  - Watch the Senate on C-SPAN when it goes back to the floor, and read the Congressional Record.  L. Coyote   Jun-16-07 08:30 PM   #94 
  - It's about dealing with reality! It's about dealing with things as they are.  pingzing58   Jun-17-07 02:01 AM   #108 
  - ironically, Europe is having its own issues  Blue_Tires   Jun-16-07 08:25 PM   #93 
  - I'm very conservative on illegal immigration.  MrSlayer   Jun-16-07 10:58 PM   #99 
  - Why?  pingzing58   Jun-17-07 01:52 AM   #106 
  - I don't blame the Mexicans.  Xap   Jun-17-07 03:17 AM   #112 
  - Blaming corporations is a simplificatioin. Lots of independent businessmen too.  L. Coyote   Jun-17-07 10:11 AM   #118 
  - Fwiw, I work with many legal immigrants  Babel_17   Jun-17-07 11:47 AM   #124 
  - TEXT Senate Bill 1348 = MUST READ  L. Coyote   Jun-17-07 02:01 PM   #129 
  - A thread for those who have read the proposed language  L. Coyote   Jun-17-07 02:20 PM   #130 
  - I read it this afternoon, all 628 pages, but why?  Cleita   Jun-18-07 01:16 AM   #138 
     - It is going to the Senate Floor for debate, and amendments will be offered.  L. Coyote   Jun-18-07 09:14 AM   #141 
        - I posted my thoughts to you someplace else, but here I'll do it again.  Cleita   Jun-18-07 12:50 PM   #143 
           - The good and lenghty comments are apprecited.  L. Coyote   Jun-18-07 01:50 PM   #145 
  - Pretty good thread here  Lasher   Jun-17-07 10:32 PM   #135 
  - Provision: FAILURE TO OBEY LAWFUL ORDERS up to 5 years in prison.  L. Coyote   Jun-18-07 01:05 AM   #137 
  - I also support complete amnesty and citizenship  hogwyld   Jun-18-07 02:39 AM   #139 
     - The path to citizenship should not be delayed by the bill, but, should everyone  L. Coyote   Jun-19-07 08:38 AM   #148 

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