Warren DeMontague
(1000+ posts)
|
Tue Jun-12-07 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #154 |
| 164. It doesn't escape me. But there is the human side, and the legislative side. |
 |
I'm not just a pro-choice American with a decent understanding of the politics and science of reproduction. This issue is framed in a political and legislative context. The political questions around abortion invariably involve people either legislatively making that decision for others or not, and I fall on the side of people being able to make those decisions for themselves. Unapologetically.
But before you extrapolate who I am and what I do or don't understand on the basis of this thread, let me say that I'm also a parent. I, too, know what it is to be overjoyed at seeing the little line on the pregnancy test. I know what a rush it is. I know what it means. But I also understand that in my own case, that joy was always compounded by the fact that this was a deliberate move and a very wanted development. It didn't have any "oh, fuck" component to it. It didn't have any "Shit, we don't have health insurance and we're about to be evicted" component. It didn't have "What are we gonna tell your psycho-ass dad who beats you?"
There IS a human component to all of this, certainly, and if we really want to speak out about "life" and protecting it and valuing it, in my opinion some of the things to do would be to tirelessly support a Single Payer Health Care System and a Liveable Minimum Wage, so the idea of a poor single woman bringing an unplanned kid into this world wouldn't be such a cruel joke in this country. We (and our allegedly pro-life compatriots across the aisle, in particular) would be out there working to make sure contraception was covered by health plans. That sex ed in schools was reality, and not abstinence, based, and it included contraceptive availability. That the Birth Control Pill wasn't being held hostage by Jesus-drunk pharmacists, and instead was available OTC.
But I want to make one point exceptionally clear. First off, "We" don't "lose on this issue". That is a media-spun lie that goes along with this bullshit about the all-powerful "values voter". The American People are overwhelmingly pro-choice. That is a FACT. "We lose on this issue"? Who says? CNN? Fuck 'em. I was at the March for Women's lives in DC in April of 2004... 1.2 Million Americans Showed up, and it was the Largest Peaceable Gathering on The Mall In American History. CNN blew off the march and spent the day chasing around drunk Bush voters at a car race in a quest to profile the "Nascar Voter". The crap about how "we" "lose" because of the pro-choicers, or the gays, or the atheists is a lie. That's all it is- it's just a bald-faced LIE.
We WIN on this issue.
Not only that, but (as the Terri Schiavo fiasco proved to the GOP) the American People are far more socially libertarian than the conventional wisdom waterheads want to give them credit for. Where we fail, if at all, is not by being "too" stridently in favor of individual freedom and liberty, we fail by not being consistently and strongly enough in favor of them.
If anything, we "lose" on not standing up strongly enough for the very powerful mind-your-own-business keep-your-personal-views-out-of-my-shit streak in the American Electorate. In My Opinion.
Peace.
|
We Had Abortions |
Madspirit |
Jun-09-07 08:16 PM |
#0 |

Nice |
Madspirit |
Jun-09-07 08:22 PM |
#1 |

Thanks for taking my suggestion & Thanks for posting the link. |
IndyOp |
Jun-09-07 08:24 PM |
#2 |
 
Point Taken and Remedied..Thanks... |
Madspirit |
Jun-09-07 08:26 PM |
#3 |
 
delete posted in wrong place |
Tierra_y_Libertad |
Jun-09-07 08:59 PM |
#15 |
 
This is so true |
FloridaJudy |
Jun-10-07 02:46 AM |
#83 |

No time to read this now... but a K&R |
PeaceNikki |
Jun-09-07 08:27 PM |
#4 |

Kick! |
loyalsister |
Jun-09-07 08:35 PM |
#5 |

k&r |
xchrom |
Jun-09-07 08:35 PM |
#6 |

Flame away but I don't think its anything to brag or boast about. |
Peregrine Took |
Jun-09-07 08:39 PM |
#7 |
 
That's why it's called CHOICE |
Bjornsdotter |
Jun-09-07 08:47 PM |
#8 |
 
The point is not to brag or boast. |
Left Is Write |
Jun-09-07 08:49 PM |
#10 |
  
Exactly n/t |
Bjornsdotter |
Jun-09-07 08:51 PM |
#12 |
  
Nicely Put...n/t |
Madspirit |
Jun-09-07 09:06 PM |
#20 |
  
Yes. Women's lives are |
shimmergal |
Jun-10-07 01:01 AM |
#64 |
  
The "humanize" aspect works with any minority issue..... |
avrdream |
Jun-10-07 05:00 AM |
#85 |
  
Very well put |
gollygee |
Jun-10-07 11:18 AM |
#99 |
 
You're response makes no sense. |
drm604 |
Jun-09-07 08:53 PM |
#13 |
  
For non-violent people its the only way to live a truly principled life, in my |
Peregrine Took |
Jun-09-07 09:10 PM |
#23 |
 
We Do Protect All Life |
Madspirit |
Jun-09-07 09:15 PM |
#25 |
 
...and actually |
Madspirit |
Jun-09-07 09:18 PM |
#26 |
 
"Liberalism" that allows people the choice of a legal vs illegal abortion? |
uppityperson |
Jun-09-07 09:22 PM |
#31 |
 
psst, if you don't want to be flamed, don't start post with "flame away" |
uppityperson |
Jun-09-07 09:24 PM |
#32 |
 
Please realize that you are free to live your |
femrap |
Jun-09-07 10:51 PM |
#47 |
  
Or maybe we should say that what people do with their own bodies isn't anyone else's |
impeachdubya |
Jun-10-07 12:44 AM |
#60 |
 
Yep....those folks sure seem to have the |
femrap |
Jun-10-07 01:58 PM |
#107 |
 
You just described my Mother perfectly. |
DKRC |
Jun-10-07 06:45 PM |
#123 |
 
I'm sorry to hear that.... |
femrap |
Jun-10-07 08:59 PM |
#137 |
 
Thanks, but having her made me an excellent Mom! |
DKRC |
Jun-10-07 10:47 PM |
#139 |
 
There is alot to said for |
femrap |
Jun-11-07 08:59 AM |
#148 |
 
Deleted message |
Name removed |
Jun-10-07 12:27 AM |
#53 |
  
but lord help us if we harm a stem cell............ HA! Welcome to DU! |
Veganistan |
Jun-10-07 01:12 AM |
#68 |
 
k n/t |
twenty4blackbirds |
Jun-10-07 02:11 AM |
#79 |
 
So, uh, I take it you think sperms and unfertilized eggs should have rights under the 14th amendment |
impeachdubya |
Jun-10-07 12:37 AM |
#57 |
 
That's because anti-choice by its very nature is not inclusive. |
grace0418 |
Jun-10-07 12:48 AM |
#61 |
  
I don't think that he will ever need to get one anyway. |
NCevilDUer |
Jun-10-07 01:12 AM |
#69 |
   
Well, since he or she said they wouldn't want that on their conscience I feel okay |
grace0418 |
Jun-10-07 01:23 AM |
#71 |
   
poster complained elsewhere of menopausal symptoms. |
uppityperson |
Jun-10-07 01:25 AM |
#73 |
  
Yeah, I always shake my head |
tofurkey |
Jun-10-07 04:47 PM |
#118 |
 
What, exactly, would a non-kneejerk reaction look like? |
drm604 |
Jun-10-07 02:33 AM |
#81 |
  
I like how that poster started with "flame away", then complains is getting flamed. |
uppityperson |
Jun-10-07 02:39 AM |
#82 |
 
It's not "pro-life" |
Le Taz Hot |
Jun-10-07 11:17 AM |
#98 |
  
Anti having the choice of getting a legal abortion rather than illegal one. |
uppityperson |
Jun-10-07 02:07 PM |
#108 |
  
I prefer pro-birth, since the actual birth is all they care about. After that, you're on your own. |
Kerrytravelers |
Jun-11-07 06:16 PM |
#161 |
 
Or the Seamless Garment Theory makes it easier not to have to think and to more easily |
Iris |
Jun-10-07 01:39 PM |
#104 |
 
Ah, so then you're the spokesperson for all non-violent people |
gollygee |
Jun-10-07 07:14 PM |
#126 |
 
And how many so-called "pro-lifers" would protect already living women? |
WritingIsMyReligion |
Jun-10-07 08:38 PM |
#135 |
 
Ahem. |
Commie Pinko Dirtbag |
Jun-11-07 01:16 PM |
#151 |
 
You say "the 'pro choice' people" as if you're holding something between your thumb and index |
Commie Pinko Dirtbag |
Jun-09-07 08:55 PM |
#14 |
 
Deleted message |
Name removed |
Jun-09-07 09:02 PM |
#17 |
 
I've Had An Abortion |
Madspirit |
Jun-09-07 09:04 PM |
#18 |
 
Acknowledging is not bragging or boasting. |
uppityperson |
Jun-09-07 09:07 PM |
#21 |
 
I won't flame, but I'll share. |
LWolf |
Jun-09-07 09:20 PM |
#28 |
  
Exactly! |
Madspirit |
Jun-09-07 09:30 PM |
#35 |
   
A girl I knew tried to do just that, shot the 'baby" with her fathers gun |
Veganistan |
Jun-10-07 01:24 AM |
#72 |
  
If I could recommend a reply - |
waiting for hope |
Jun-09-07 09:38 PM |
#40 |
  
Thank you |
JNelson6563 |
Jun-10-07 07:31 AM |
#88 |
  
Wow! |
Le Taz Hot |
Jun-10-07 11:21 AM |
#100 |
 
Did you read anything posted? There is no bragging. Your comment makes no sense and is, in itself, |
Kerrytravelers |
Jun-09-07 09:20 PM |
#29 |
 
I had an abortion 29 years ago and I am glad. |
roody |
Jun-09-07 09:28 PM |
#33 |
 
Yeah, (some of) what the newbie said |
sampsonblk |
Jun-09-07 09:28 PM |
#34 |
  
I Cheer About Being Alive |
Madspirit |
Jun-09-07 09:32 PM |
#36 |
   
And self-determination. |
Lars39 |
Jun-09-07 09:34 PM |
#38 |
  
*Always*? |
Lars39 |
Jun-09-07 09:32 PM |
#37 |
  
Choosing a legal vs an illegal abortion is unfortunate? |
uppityperson |
Jun-09-07 09:37 PM |
#39 |
   
Never-nt |
sampsonblk |
Jun-10-07 02:36 PM |
#111 |
  
abortion is a complicated issue, Choice is not. |
uppityperson |
Jun-10-07 03:07 PM |
#114 |
  
Always Unfortunate? |
Bjornsdotter |
Jun-09-07 11:07 PM |
#50 |
  
Do you have a uterus? If not, why is it any of your business AT ALL if someone else who DOES |
impeachdubya |
Jun-10-07 12:40 AM |
#58 |
   
Agreed. |
Umbram |
Jun-10-07 04:16 PM |
#117 |
    
I am hoping you forgot the sarcasm smiley. |
uppityperson |
Jun-10-07 04:59 PM |
#119 |
     
Here's the thing. |
Umbram |
Jun-10-07 07:13 PM |
#125 |
    
Gotcha and I agree |
uppityperson |
Jun-10-07 07:18 PM |
#128 |
    
We are on the same page. What you say here is my view as well. |
impeachdubya |
Jun-11-07 12:10 AM |
#142 |
    
Ha, Ha. Way to deliberately misconstrue what I said. |
impeachdubya |
Jun-11-07 12:09 AM |
#141 |
   
All too easy - because I vote |
sampsonblk |
Jun-10-07 08:33 PM |
#134 |
  
So, a woman exercising reproductive choice over her own body is like a bank robber... |
impeachdubya |
Jun-11-07 12:01 AM |
#140 |
  
Not at all |
sampsonblk |
Jun-11-07 09:36 AM |
#149 |
  
Maybe you'll ignore my questions about the bank robber because you can't answer them |
impeachdubya |
Jun-11-07 12:18 PM |
#150 |
  
You win |
sampsonblk |
Jun-11-07 05:00 PM |
#154 |
  
It doesn't escape me. But there is the human side, and the legislative side. |
impeachdubya |
Jun-12-07 12:13 AM |
#164 |
  
its always unfortunate |
Scout |
Jun-10-07 06:31 PM |
#121 |
  
Would you also characterize it as unfortunate.. |
girl gone mad |
Jun-10-07 08:41 PM |
#136 |
 
I'll say it loud and proud! |
bicentennial_baby |
Jun-09-07 09:55 PM |
#42 |
 
So share your opinion, rather than your disdain |
WakeMeUp |
Jun-09-07 11:05 PM |
#49 |
 
Ignorance is bliss. It's so fun to look down your nose with such disdain. |
PeaceNikki |
Jun-09-07 11:07 PM |
#51 |
 
BULLSHIT. MOST AMERICANS are PRO CHOICE. |
impeachdubya |
Jun-10-07 12:36 AM |
#56 |
 
I have room for your opinion as long as you keep it the fu ^k away from my uterus. |
Veganistan |
Jun-10-07 01:06 AM |
#65 |
 
Point that finger somewhere else |
Ellen Forradalom |
Jun-10-07 02:14 AM |
#80 |
 
I think women sharing their story is not "bragging" and if anything |
bleedingheart |
Jun-10-07 08:21 AM |
#89 |
 
Wow, you really don't fucking get it, do you? |
Vickers |
Jun-10-07 10:00 AM |
#93 |
 
No one's bragging or boasting about having had an abortion. They are stating a fact of their |
sinkingfeeling |
Jun-10-07 10:05 AM |
#94 |
 
Oh, there's room for opinions |
dancingAlone |
Jun-11-07 12:50 AM |
#143 |
 
Here's An Opinion - Don't Have An Abortion |
REP |
Jun-11-07 05:51 AM |
#147 |
 
The site whose name we dare not speak is up and running |
dogday |
Jun-11-07 05:02 PM |
#155 |

Kick and rec |
Bjornsdotter |
Jun-09-07 08:47 PM |
#9 |

Thank you |
ismnotwasm |
Jun-09-07 08:50 PM |
#11 |

It's an "issue" that should be a non-issue. Control of one's own body is a basic human right. K&R |
Tierra_y_Libertad |
Jun-09-07 09:00 PM |
#16 |
 
I love ex-Catholics |
Madspirit |
Jun-09-07 09:05 PM |
#19 |
  
Well, I'm an ex-Catholic too. |
Tierra_y_Libertad |
Jun-09-07 09:08 PM |
#22 |
   
My Favorite |
Madspirit |
Jun-09-07 09:13 PM |
#24 |
    
Yes, indeed. |
Tierra_y_Libertad |
Jun-09-07 09:20 PM |
#27 |
   
Exactly!...n/t |
Madspirit |
Jun-09-07 09:21 PM |
#30 |
   
Edit after the time limit. Should have been 63 not 73. |
Tierra_y_Libertad |
Jun-10-07 01:10 AM |
#67 |
  
I don't think you can be an ex Catholic. A recoverig Catholic maybe |
sfexpat2000 |
Jun-10-07 12:34 AM |
#55 |
 
Formerly Catholic friend describes himself as |
Tansy_Gold |
Jun-10-07 10:59 AM |
#95 |
 
Okay! |
sfexpat2000 |
Jun-10-07 01:33 PM |
#103 |
 
ex-catholics unite! me too -- we're a special breed |
nashville_brook |
Jun-09-07 09:53 PM |
#41 |
  
Yes, every time my husband's VERY Catholic family talks about mass or some sacrament |
grace0418 |
Jun-10-07 12:56 AM |
#63 |
 
Couldn't agree more. It boggles the mind that we are even still discussing this |
grace0418 |
Jun-10-07 12:51 AM |
#62 |

K & R..for all of us who have had to make the difficult choice, but grateful it was there to make. |
BrklynLiberal |
Jun-09-07 10:08 PM |
#43 |

Kick & rec. |
Cabcere |
Jun-09-07 10:16 PM |
#44 |

Kicking on Principle...n/t |
Madspirit |
Jun-09-07 10:26 PM |
#45 |

thanks for the link. |
ellenfl |
Jun-09-07 10:36 PM |
#46 |

K & R.. |
femrap |
Jun-09-07 10:59 PM |
#48 |
 
"And I know |
Le Taz Hot |
Jun-10-07 11:27 AM |
#101 |

BINGO!!! |
Karenina |
Jun-10-07 11:34 AM |
#102 |

I believe Oprah discussed it once and there |
femrap |
Jun-10-07 01:54 PM |
#106 |

I was barely making ends meet when I had mine... |
fudge stripe cookays |
Jun-10-07 12:08 AM |
#52 |
 
If they're really worried about it, they can support a SPHC system and a liveable min. wage. |
impeachdubya |
Jun-10-07 12:42 AM |
#59 |

It's always struck me as incredibly odd that right-wing GOP fundies don't want |
grace0418 |
Jun-10-07 01:08 AM |
#66 |

Not only do they not want birth control available, they'd like to outlaw it, as well. |
impeachdubya |
Jun-10-07 01:13 AM |
#70 |
 
Outlawing all sex beyond marital/procreation is absolutely impossible. It would be |
grace0418 |
Jun-10-07 01:27 AM |
#74 |

All the more reason, it gives them something to "fight" that they can never stop. |
impeachdubya |
Jun-10-07 04:45 AM |
#84 |

Yep. They are a bunch of sickos |
Erika |
Jun-10-07 01:35 AM |
#77 |

EXACTLY. |
fudge stripe cookays |
Jun-10-07 11:13 AM |
#96 |

ha! And I guess guaranteed, paid maternity leave is way out of the question! |
Iris |
Jun-10-07 01:45 PM |
#105 |

Kicked and recommended. |
Kool Kitty |
Jun-10-07 12:34 AM |
#54 |

K and R n/t |
Erika |
Jun-10-07 01:31 AM |
#75 |

K&R |
Morgana LaFey |
Jun-10-07 01:32 AM |
#76 |

Kicked |
Heathen57 |
Jun-10-07 01:44 AM |
#78 |

Done! |
calimary |
Jun-10-07 05:06 AM |
#86 |

Keep it LEGAL |
Duppers |
Jun-10-07 05:31 AM |
#87 |
 
I'm here, Duppers |
dancingAlone |
Jun-10-07 08:25 PM |
#133 |

I remember reading about your mother's story |
renate |
Jun-11-07 05:13 PM |
#157 |

Because of the right to choose, my daughter is here today |
bleedingheart |
Jun-10-07 08:27 AM |
#90 |

In the 50s my grandmother killed herself because she was pregnant again at 45 |
LosinIt |
Jun-10-07 09:48 AM |
#91 |
 
Oh God, Los. |
fudge stripe cookays |
Jun-10-07 11:16 AM |
#97 |

The Idea Of Sending One's Name (Signature) To The WH, Stating That They've Had An Abortion? |
Dinger |
Jun-10-07 09:54 AM |
#92 |
 
This is an Important Point--This was a Really Brave Act; They Were Under Threat |
Hidden Stillness |
Jun-10-07 02:36 PM |
#110 |
 
If You're Going to be THAT paranoid |
Madspirit |
Jun-10-07 03:03 PM |
#113 |

Well, I Don't Want To Make It Any Easier For Them Than It Already Is (nt) |
Dinger |
Jun-10-07 10:16 PM |
#138 |

Maybe the paranoia would be more reasonable if held against the "Army of God" types. |
Commie Pinko Dirtbag |
Jun-11-07 01:22 PM |
#153 |

If white concervative males had abortions, we'd have clinics on every corner |
shance |
Jun-10-07 02:30 PM |
#109 |

Great post. And: |
BlueIris |
Jun-10-07 02:55 PM |
#112 |

Time For a Kick... |
Madspirit |
Jun-10-07 03:19 PM |
#115 |

Signed the petition. |
Luminous Animal |
Jun-10-07 03:37 PM |
#116 |

I had an Ectopic Pregnancy in a "christian" hospital in 1983 |
HockeyMom |
Jun-10-07 06:25 PM |
#120 |
 
I can't even imagine what a horrible experience that must have been, HockeyMom. |
Cabcere |
Jun-10-07 06:39 PM |
#122 |
 
I too had an ectopic |
dancingAlone |
Jun-11-07 03:00 AM |
#146 |

kick |
FLDem5 |
Jun-10-07 06:48 PM |
#124 |

Can I start one that says |
undeterred |
Jun-10-07 07:17 PM |
#127 |
 
Yup |
dancingAlone |
Jun-11-07 02:00 AM |
#144 |

K&R! |
DKRC |
Jun-10-07 07:18 PM |
#129 |

Done + a Kick |
northamericancitizen |
Jun-10-07 07:25 PM |
#130 |

Thank you to my mom... |
silverlib |
Jun-10-07 08:14 PM |
#131 |
 
Thank you for telling us about her. My mom turned librul over Choice. |
uppityperson |
Jun-10-07 08:21 PM |
#132 |

My SO and I support abortion... |
Xenotime |
Jun-11-07 02:45 AM |
#145 |

kick |
Elspeth |
Jun-11-07 01:21 PM |
#152 |

Nothing to be proud about at all n.t |
StudentsMustUniteNow |
Jun-11-07 05:04 PM |
#156 |
 
Your insistence on trying to shame women is deplorable. |
Lars39 |
Jun-11-07 05:18 PM |
#158 |

Don't force your moral system on me |
StudentsMustUniteNow |
Jun-11-07 05:22 PM |
#159 |

Yes, you are trying to shame women. |
Lars39 |
Jun-11-07 05:42 PM |
#160 |

kicking on principle |
Madspirit |
Jun-11-07 06:53 PM |
#162 |

Is the surgical procedure |
dancingAlone |
Jun-11-07 11:27 PM |
#163 |