Douglas Carpenter
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sat Nov-20-10 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #77 |
| 79. I would suggest that people read his entire articles if they want to know what he believes |
|
Edited on Sat Nov-20-10 10:46 AM by Douglas Carpenter
In defense of torture: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/in-defense-of-... and his follow-up statement on torture from his own website: http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/response-to-con... and his statement about a possible nuclear first strike: http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/response-to-con... and to remember what he has clearly stated in his own book:
"The link between belief and behaviour raises the stakes considerably. Some propositions are so dangerous that it may even be ethical to kill people for believing them. This may seem an extraordinary claim, but it merely enunciates an ordinary fact about the world in which we live. Certain beliefs place their adherents beyond the reach of every peaceful means of persuasion, while inspiring them to commit acts of extraordinary violence against others. There is, in fact, no talking to some people. If they cannot be captured, and they often cannot, otherwise tolerant people may be justified in killing them in self-defense. This is what the United States attempted in Afghanistan, and it is what we and other Western powers are bound to attempt, at an even greater cost to ourselves and to innocents abroad, elsewhere in the Muslim world. We will continue to spill blood in what is, at bottom, a war of ideas. (The End of Faith, p52-53.)"
"What will we do if an Islamist regime, which grows dewy-eyed at the mere mention of paradise, ever acquires long-range nuclear weaponry?" Harris asks. "If history is any guide, we will not be sure about where the offending warheads are or what their state of readiness is, and so we will be unable to rely on targeted, conventional weapons to destroy them. In such a situation, the only thing likely to ensure our survival may be a nuclear first strike of our own. Needless to say, this would be an unthinkable crime—as it would kill tens of millions of innocent civilians in a single day—but it may be the only course of action available to us, given what Islamists believe. How would such an unconscionable act of self-defense be perceived by the rest of the Muslim world? It would likely be seen as the first incursion of a genocidal crusade."
- Sam Harris from The End of Faith
|
| -Sam Harris: Religious Fundamentalism, Impact On Everyday Life |
Charleston Chew |
Nov-17-10 06:27 AM |
#0 |
-
Same here...Just started reading his new book. |
SkyDaddy7 |
Nov-17-10 06:37 AM |
#1 |
-
There are some, even on DU, who insist... |
trotsky |
Nov-17-10 06:47 AM |
#2 |
 -
similar to.... |
Charleston Chew |
Nov-17-10 06:53 AM |
#3 |
-
The Dangerous Atheism of Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris by Chris Hedges |
Douglas Carpenter |
Nov-17-10 06:58 AM |
#4 |
 -
Wow! But isn't Harris like a world-famous Atheist and not a Fundie? |
alanquatermass |
Nov-17-10 07:35 AM |
#6 |
  -
"us" |
Charleston Chew |
Nov-17-10 08:30 AM |
#8 |
 -
Ha! I am definitely a white guy -- damn, is it that obvious?! -- but what I meant was... |
alanquatermass |
Nov-17-10 05:19 PM |
#13 |
 -
Thanks for that |
cpwm17 |
Nov-17-10 10:00 AM |
#11 |
 -
Deleted message |
Name removed |
Nov-17-10 10:06 AM |
#12 |
 -
Thank you for posting that! |
CrawlingChaos |
Nov-17-10 11:59 PM |
#15 |
-
indeed, Absolutist demagoguery is not the exclusive domain of religionists. |
Douglas Carpenter |
Nov-18-10 12:46 AM |
#18 |
-
the answer, religion or science? |
Charleston Chew |
Nov-17-10 07:05 AM |
#5 |
-
Any Religion + Power = Murdering of infidels. |
TwentyFive |
Nov-17-10 08:00 AM |
#7 |
 -
Niemöller's famous quotation |
Charleston Chew |
Nov-17-10 08:33 AM |
#9 |
 -
I think you are 1000% correct... |
SkyDaddy7 |
Nov-17-10 09:35 AM |
#10 |
 -
Deleted message |
Name removed |
Nov-17-10 05:29 PM |
#14 |
-
Sam Harris up there disagrees with you |
CrawlingChaos |
Nov-18-10 12:07 AM |
#16 |
-
"Uniquely dangerous..."?? |
alanquatermass |
Nov-18-10 12:16 AM |
#17 |
-
Could you perhaps point to the official document... |
trotsky |
Nov-18-10 07:08 AM |
#23 |
 -
official document - WTF? |
CrawlingChaos |
Nov-18-10 03:31 PM |
#29 |
-
Deleted message |
Name removed |
Nov-18-10 04:57 PM |
#30 |
-
a truly nonsensical response |
CrawlingChaos |
Nov-18-10 05:43 PM |
#31 |
 -
Thanks for the links |
Turborama |
Nov-22-10 01:53 AM |
#99 |
-
It's nothing to do with atheism |
cpwm17 |
Nov-18-10 05:51 PM |
#32 |
-
You also miss the point. |
trotsky |
Nov-19-10 06:02 AM |
#37 |
-
I beg your pardon, but... |
Charleston Chew |
Nov-18-10 07:53 AM |
#24 |
-
Here's a passage in Harris' book "The End of Faith" |
cpwm17 |
Nov-18-10 10:18 AM |
#27 |
-
Deleted message |
Name removed |
Nov-18-10 01:53 AM |
#19 |
 -
Sam Harris is pro-torture and he does advocate a possible nuclear first strike against the Arab and |
Douglas Carpenter |
Nov-18-10 02:16 AM |
#20 |
-
Deleted message |
Name removed |
Nov-18-10 02:38 AM |
#21 |
-
in his book "The End of Faith" |
Douglas Carpenter |
Nov-18-10 02:47 AM |
#22 |
 -
Thank you for the reference. |
ForeignSpectator |
Nov-18-10 08:01 AM |
#25 |
-
actually Sam Harris wrote an article for Huffington Post called: In Defense of Torture |
Douglas Carpenter |
Nov-18-10 11:53 AM |
#28 |
-
Once again, thanks for the reference, however you lost the argument.... |
ForeignSpectator |
Nov-18-10 06:24 PM |
#33 |
 -
in your own mind, maybe |
CrawlingChaos |
Nov-18-10 06:53 PM |
#34 |
 -
I'm sorry, but you are engaging in crass sophistry, Sam Harris said what he said |
Douglas Carpenter |
Nov-18-10 07:00 PM |
#35 |
  -
You give imcomplete quotes out of context and you accuse ME of spinning? |
ForeignSpectator |
Nov-19-10 07:07 AM |
#41 |
 -
I followed them and the addition to the quote actually makes Douglas' argument even stronger.... |
Turborama |
Nov-19-10 07:33 AM |
#45 |
 -
Why didn't you bold this part: |
trotsky |
Nov-19-10 09:04 AM |
#48 |
 -
Can you read? |
Turborama |
Nov-19-10 09:24 AM |
#49 |
 -
Can you? |
trotsky |
Nov-19-10 09:28 AM |
#50 |
 -
LOL, is that all you're left with? |
Turborama |
Nov-19-10 10:04 AM |
#51 |
  -
When you refuse to actually read, yeah, it's all I have left. |
trotsky |
Nov-19-10 11:05 AM |
#53 |
 -
And now you've shown you've got nothing. |
Turborama |
Nov-19-10 11:30 AM |
#55 |
 -
Nothing will counter your nothing, I agree. n/t |
trotsky |
Nov-19-10 11:52 AM |
#57 |
 -
Carry on embarrassing yourself. |
Turborama |
Nov-19-10 12:56 PM |
#62 |
 -
Oh we agree there's someone getting embarrassed alright. n/t |
trotsky |
Nov-19-10 01:46 PM |
#64 |
 -
And it sure ain't me. |
Turborama |
Nov-19-10 06:45 PM |
#68 |
 -
If that's what you need to believe! |
trotsky |
Nov-20-10 09:11 AM |
#72 |
 -
Some may call them thought experiments |
cpwm17 |
Nov-19-10 10:33 AM |
#52 |
 -
"they obviously reflects (sic) what he actually thinks" |
trotsky |
Nov-19-10 11:07 AM |
#54 |
 -
Do you think it may be the only course of action available to us, given what Islamists believe? |
Turborama |
Nov-19-10 11:34 AM |
#56 |
  -
Why, am I required to have an opinion? |
trotsky |
Nov-19-10 11:53 AM |
#58 |
 -
Asking someone a question related to the topic of conversation means they're the thought police? |
Turborama |
Nov-19-10 12:51 PM |
#59 |
 -
You haven't told me why I should. |
trotsky |
Nov-19-10 12:53 PM |
#60 |
 -
You haven't asked me to, not that I should have to during a normal discussion. |
Turborama |
Nov-19-10 01:01 PM |
#63 |
 -
I'm not defending his stance, |
trotsky |
Nov-19-10 01:47 PM |
#65 |
 -
Yes, you obviously are |
Turborama |
Nov-19-10 06:49 PM |
#69 |
 -
Of course it's an "epic failure" because I'm not defending the strawman. |
trotsky |
Nov-20-10 09:12 AM |
#73 |
 -
Invalid use of the strawman thing. Your refusal to answer a simple question is what's going on here |
Turborama |
Nov-20-10 10:58 AM |
#83 |
 -
From a strawman to a red herring. |
trotsky |
Nov-21-10 06:35 AM |
#86 |
 -
Sam Harris wrote it may be the only course of action available to us, given what Islamists believe. |
Turborama |
Nov-21-10 08:40 AM |
#88 |
 -
You have done nothing but try and make this about me and/or my opinion. |
trotsky |
Nov-21-10 09:33 AM |
#89 |
 -
I have asked you whether you agree with him, correct. You have deflected & refused to answer. |
Turborama |
Nov-21-10 10:18 AM |
#90 |
 -
One's opinion on what Harris meant... |
trotsky |
Nov-21-10 10:38 AM |
#91 |
 -
"but he did not say what you & others are insinuating" We are directly quoting him, ffs! |
Turborama |
Nov-22-10 01:10 AM |
#97 |
 -
So you CAN'T quit me. |
trotsky |
Nov-22-10 06:20 AM |
#101 |
 -
Don't flatter yourself |
Turborama |
Nov-22-10 11:06 AM |
#103 |
 -
I can't help it if the shoe fits you. |
trotsky |
Nov-22-10 11:25 AM |
#104 |
 -
What, am I supposed to apologize to you for asking you a question? |
Turborama |
Nov-22-10 11:33 AM |
#105 |
 -
You've tried and tried to get me to play your game, |
trotsky |
Nov-22-10 11:44 AM |
#106 |
 -
No "game playing" involved at all. |
Turborama |
Nov-22-10 11:56 AM |
#107 |
 -
And your question is flawed on two counts: |
trotsky |
Nov-22-10 12:03 PM |
#108 |
 -
This is a full exact quote of what Harris said and where the question is derived from... |
Turborama |
Nov-22-10 12:22 PM |
#109 |
 -
Please re-read what you responded to with the passage I quoted. |
trotsky |
Nov-22-10 12:24 PM |
#110 |
 -
I have never discussed Hedges' take on this with you or anyone else. |
Turborama |
Nov-22-10 12:27 PM |
#111 |
 -
Your opinon is Hedges' opinion. |
trotsky |
Nov-22-10 12:32 PM |
#112 |
 -
I honestly haven't read Hedges' opinion on this. |
Turborama |
Nov-22-10 12:40 PM |
#113 |
 -
Fine then. |
trotsky |
Nov-22-10 12:48 PM |
#114 |
 -
I hadn't seen that you had added that quote on edit, hence the confusion. |
Turborama |
Nov-22-10 01:04 PM |
#115 |
 -
... |
trotsky |
Nov-22-10 01:17 PM |
#116 |
 -
"But please note - you did not answer my question." !ROTFLMAO! |
Turborama |
Nov-22-10 01:31 PM |
#117 |
 -
I understand why you won't answer the question. |
trotsky |
Nov-22-10 01:34 PM |
#118 |
 -
I did answer it. |
Turborama |
Nov-22-10 01:35 PM |
#119 |
 -
More games from you - it's how I know you've lost again. |
trotsky |
Nov-22-10 01:52 PM |
#121 |
 -
You're only dodging & saying I wasn't direct enough to satisfy you when I have made myself clear |
Turborama |
Nov-22-10 02:02 PM |
#122 |
 -
LMAO |
trotsky |
Nov-22-10 02:07 PM |
#123 |
 -
You're accusing me of not being direct enough to satisfy you. Where's your answer to my question? |
Turborama |
Nov-22-10 02:13 PM |
#124 |
 -
Once again, YOUR secondary question was a red herring. |
trotsky |
Nov-22-10 02:26 PM |
#126 |
 -
Harris: "it may be the only course of action available to us, given what Islamists believe" |
Turborama |
Nov-22-10 02:36 PM |
#128 |
 -
Still unproven, by both you and Chris Hedges. |
trotsky |
Nov-22-10 02:55 PM |
#130 |
 -
Harris has not denied that he wants "the U.S. government to start killing Muslims by the millions" |
Turborama |
Nov-22-10 02:19 PM |
#125 |
 -
Why did he put up a page to address the controversy, then? |
trotsky |
Nov-22-10 02:28 PM |
#127 |
 -
He put up a page to address "controversies". He answered at length and in detail the other positions |
Turborama |
Nov-22-10 02:47 PM |
#129 |
 -
Still unproven, by both you and Chris Hedges. |
trotsky |
Nov-22-10 02:55 PM |
#131 |
 -
No, my entire argument relies on the full text of what he wrote. |
Turborama |
Nov-22-10 03:01 PM |
#132 |
 -
We're going in circles on this |
cpwm17 |
Nov-19-10 12:54 PM |
#61 |
 -
Except Harris says that you are both wrong. |
trotsky |
Nov-19-10 01:49 PM |
#66 |
 -
Sam Harris is pro-torture and he does advocate a possible nuclear first strike against the Islamic |
Douglas Carpenter |
Nov-19-10 02:57 PM |
#67 |
 -
Unfortunately I have concerns about Dawkins also |
CrawlingChaos |
Nov-20-10 03:46 AM |
#70 |
  -
I've never heard him say anything like that |
cpwm17 |
Nov-20-10 10:35 AM |
#78 |
 -
Jebus. |
trotsky |
Nov-20-10 09:10 AM |
#71 |
 -
Those are Sam Harris' words not mine |
Douglas Carpenter |
Nov-20-10 10:12 AM |
#74 |
 -
Doesn't matter what someone says, |
trotsky |
Nov-20-10 10:22 AM |
#75 |
 -
no mind reading - just reading Sam Harris' own words. He is absolutely clear. |
Douglas Carpenter |
Nov-20-10 10:24 AM |
#76 |
 -
Harris re: nuclear option: "I have just described a plausible scenario..." |
trotsky |
Nov-20-10 10:29 AM |
#77 |
 -
I would suggest that people read his entire articles if they want to know what he believes |
Douglas Carpenter |
Nov-20-10 10:38 AM |
#79 |
 -
I gave you direct quotes pertinent to the claims you've made... |
trotsky |
Nov-20-10 10:41 AM |
#80 |
 -
out of context quotes .. people should read what he actually said if they really want to know |
Douglas Carpenter |
Nov-20-10 10:47 AM |
#81 |
 -
Yes, your entire position is based on out of context quotes. |
trotsky |
Nov-20-10 10:51 AM |
#82 |
 -
whatever....believe what you want to believe |
Douglas Carpenter |
Nov-20-10 11:03 AM |
#84 |
 -
Thanks for the links, Douglas. |
Turborama |
Nov-20-10 11:41 AM |
#85 |
 -
For the record, I am not a "fan" of Sam Harris. |
trotsky |
Nov-21-10 10:41 AM |
#92 |
 -
I didn't name any names in my reply to Douglas |
Turborama |
Nov-22-10 01:17 AM |
#98 |
 -
You have a lousy poker face. |
trotsky |
Nov-22-10 06:17 AM |
#100 |
 -
Aw, what's a little thing like context when you have people to bash? |
trotsky |
Nov-19-10 06:03 AM |
#38 |
  -
The context is clear - bigotry |
cpwm17 |
Nov-19-10 06:33 AM |
#39 |
 -
Harris called a nuclear first strike an "unconscionable act." |
trotsky |
Nov-19-10 06:36 AM |
#40 |
 -
Thank you! You actually bothered "reading" |
ForeignSpectator |
Nov-19-10 07:11 AM |
#42 |
  -
It's sad that the same progressives who decry... |
trotsky |
Nov-19-10 07:43 AM |
#46 |
 -
He does promote aggressive war |
cpwm17 |
Nov-19-10 07:27 AM |
#44 |
 -
What Harris describes is what the US was trying to do with Hitler in WW2. |
trotsky |
Nov-19-10 07:45 AM |
#47 |
 -
Let's fear the Muslim Blitzkrieg |
cpwm17 |
Nov-21-10 07:27 AM |
#87 |
 -
Nope, not saying that at all. |
trotsky |
Nov-21-10 10:49 AM |
#93 |
 -
My point is obvious |
cpwm17 |
Nov-21-10 11:19 AM |
#94 |
 -
They always have to have the last word |
Turborama |
Nov-21-10 11:45 AM |
#95 |
 -
Obvious but irrelevant. |
trotsky |
Nov-21-10 11:57 AM |
#96 |
 -
BTW, the content of the post above is something Douglas wrote |
Turborama |
Nov-19-10 07:25 AM |
#43 |
-
Very well said, Douglas! You should post that as an OP. n/t |
Turborama |
Nov-18-10 07:24 PM |
#36 |
-
Laugh Out Loud! |
Charleston Chew |
Nov-18-10 08:06 AM |
#26 |
-
BS n/t |
DeSwiss |
Nov-22-10 01:36 PM |
#120 |
-
Deleted message |
Name removed |
Nov-22-10 06:42 AM |
#102 |
-
Sam is full of it. The Torah and the Bible make martyrs into saints, and read Leviticus |
herbm |
Nov-23-10 01:29 PM |
#133 |