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Reply #160: dingdingding!! We have a winner!!! [View All]

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TygrBright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #134
160. dingdingding!! We have a winner!!!
>>They were victims of a corrupt and crappy system.<<


This is why saying "use the system we already have, enforce the laws that already exist, yaddayaddayadda" leaves you open to being taken apart. It IS a corrupt and crappy system, and the whole damn' system needs an overhaul from top to bottom, starting out with an HONEST discussion of what our national goal should be in permitting immigration at all. (BTW, I'm FOR permitting immigration, I'm just saying that the discussion needs to start out at that fundamental a level in order to work through all the crap and ensure that everyone gets properly heard, and be CLEAR and UNDERSTANDABLE to all the stakeholders-- which is all of us.)

I know who you're talking about when you say "The pro-illegal immigrant camp," but again, that kind of verbiage is likely to be self-defeating. It focuses on the human element, and whenever that comes up, the discussion gets derailed into the 'it's a question of fundamental human rights/decency, etc.' territory and you automatically become a "racist" (see below,) no matter how little you actually care about issues of race. It's also a bit like the folks on the "anti" side in the choice issue trying to put an opprobrious label on their opponents (because they think it's a successful rhetorical device) with "pro-abortion." That backfired on them, because it gave their opponents a chance to bring the fundamental question of "choice" front and center with the relabeling "pro-choice."

Yes, it is naive to assume that all immigrants are starry-eyed innocents huddling in today's version of the shadow of the Statue of Liberty, determined to make good and become upstanding Americans (although I hope you concede that such folks are definitely in the majority among the immigrant population, regardless of legal status.) And the demand that such an image be the "default" assumption for everyone taking part in this discussion renders their case vulnerable to everyone who's ever known a creepy undocumented Russian gangster, a scary undocumented Latino gang member, a cynically manipulative 'get-rich-quick' European, or any of a thousand other unpleasant people who are here for all the wrong reasons. Many, many people who have encountered such (and who DON'T know the hard-working home health aide who's struggling to support her children and make a real home in a community that needs her skills, or others of the millions of really wonderful would-be Americans) will just turn the discussion off when such demands conflict with their 'reality.'

As long as the discussion stays in the territory of the *people* (the living, breathing would-be fine American neighbors and the sleazy exploiters of American good will alike) it can never be fruitful. It will degenerate (it already is degenerating, heck) into one of those sterile, dead-end, stalemates like choice or guns or Israel, etc., and the real questions will never even be raised, much less answered. Not surprising, they're painful questions that are likely to expose a lot of ugliness even among basically good, decent, caring people with all the right intentions and motives. As long as one side can throw the dewy veil of Emma Lazarus over the discussion (the "give us your huddled masses," poet,) and the other side relies on a mishmash of easily-puncturable, sometimes contradictory, and often self-defeating arguments relating to "It's the Law! and "American jobs for Americans" and "Us versus Them" and "They take but don't give" etc., no resolution is possible and the discussion will simply loop. Everyone will get angrier and angrier, more peoples' positions will harden, and resolution will become even more impossible.

Sorry, Thinking, the last bits aren't really directed at you, somewhere along the line my "rant" button just got pushed. I'm gonna bow out of all of these threads now, since I've made as much useful contribution as I think I can make.

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  -Maybe it's time for Americans who oppose illegal immigration ... RagingInMiami  Mar-28-06 10:42 AM   #0 
  - Not in the Streets ...  earthside   Mar-28-06 10:49 AM   #1 
  - both parties are split on this issue n/t  bluedog   Mar-28-06 10:51 AM   #3 
  - Where were these people during the anti-war protests? n/t  cantstandbush   Mar-28-06 03:54 PM   #129 
  - Which Democrats are advocating "essentially free, open borders"?  Bridget Burke   Mar-28-06 10:54 AM   #5 
  - I'm speaking about individual voters..  bluedog   Mar-28-06 10:57 AM   #9 
  - All of them ...  earthside   Mar-28-06 12:05 PM   #28 
     - But KKKarl's in a bind  Marie26   Mar-28-06 01:21 PM   #36 
     - Of course he can.  earthside   Mar-28-06 02:27 PM   #83 
        - you scare too easy  FredScuttle   Mar-28-06 02:42 PM   #92 
        - I only get scared ...  earthside   Mar-28-06 04:16 PM   #133 
           - On this issue the dems should sit back and let them implode  RagingInMiami   Mar-29-06 03:48 AM   #165 
              - Umm hasn't that been the democratic strategy for 5 years now?  Beelzebud   Mar-29-06 10:42 AM   #178 
                 - Well if they do it over the immigration issue, it will divide the party  RagingInMiami   Mar-29-06 11:05 AM   #180 
        - No, the radical right--the paleo-cons, are for tightened restrictions  mycritters2   Mar-28-06 04:29 PM   #141 
     - It's impossible to defend a negative  radio4progressives   Mar-28-06 02:42 PM   #93 
  - Protesting at the ballot box?  RagingInMiami   Mar-28-06 10:55 AM   #7 
  - a growing percentage of illegals are my clients.  antifaschits   Mar-28-06 10:51 AM   #2 
  - Care to back up your opinion with facts?  thinkingwoman   Mar-28-06 10:59 AM   #10 
  - that's pretty insulting and ignorant of you.  antifaschits   Mar-28-06 01:24 PM   #38 
  - You haven't explained  thinkingwoman   Mar-28-06 01:50 PM   #48 
  - I don't think it is worth my time, not with your mind so made up.  antifaschits   Mar-28-06 01:52 PM   #52 
  - There, finally...  thinkingwoman   Mar-28-06 01:57 PM   #60 
     - through human resources of any company they work for  radio4progressives   Mar-28-06 03:05 PM   #107 
        - no, I'll wait  thinkingwoman   Mar-28-06 04:21 PM   #136 
  - I agree with you Thinkingwoman.  Rockholm   Mar-28-06 03:46 PM   #127 
  - The SSA does not issue SSN to anyone  NYCparalegal   Mar-28-06 01:52 PM   #51 
  - thank you for posting this  thinkingwoman   Mar-28-06 01:59 PM   #61 
  - Excellent Response, and I share your Frustration..  radio4progressives   Mar-28-06 02:58 PM   #100 
  - so breaking the law is ok?  thinkingwoman   Mar-28-06 04:34 PM   #144 
     - talk about a disconnect..  radio4progressives   Mar-28-06 05:00 PM   #151 
     - It's also about the FISA  thinkingwoman   Mar-28-06 05:44 PM   #158 
     - Look, have you any sense of humanity in your soul? Or is it all gone?  antifaschits   Mar-28-06 05:02 PM   #152 
        - ahh, more namecalling  thinkingwoman   Mar-28-06 05:43 PM   #157 
  - Thank you for some friggin sanity. God, I'm so sick of  coalition_unwilling   Mar-28-06 03:07 PM   #109 
  - the corporate elite  thinkingwoman   Mar-28-06 04:34 PM   #143 
     - Not just the corporate elite, though. Every upper middle-class  coalition_unwilling   Mar-29-06 12:37 PM   #183 
        - upper middle class  thinkingwoman   Mar-29-06 12:59 PM   #185 
           - Sorry for the jargon. I do think it is possible to distinguish  coalition_unwilling   Mar-29-06 01:02 PM   #187 
              - no apology needed  thinkingwoman   Mar-29-06 01:28 PM   #190 
                 - Plenty of "fakers" here in L.A., also. They're also referred to  coalition_unwilling   Mar-29-06 01:50 PM   #194 
                    - LOL nt  thinkingwoman   Mar-29-06 03:54 PM   #195 
  - Well, I don't know about your other details, but to transfer my  mycritters2   Mar-28-06 04:35 PM   #145 
     - Those in Illinois who already have a license have no problem.  antifaschits   Mar-28-06 04:37 PM   #147 
        - Not if you're getting a license for the first time, or transferring from  mycritters2   Mar-28-06 04:41 PM   #148 
           - true. The largest block of people who cannot travel easily between states  antifaschits   Mar-28-06 04:44 PM   #149 
  - They do indeed pay taxes... in fact they pay disproportionately  TygrBright   Mar-28-06 01:50 PM   #47 
     - As a former business owner  thinkingwoman   Mar-28-06 01:55 PM   #55 
     - They make them up, of course. Or use "unknown."  TygrBright   Mar-28-06 03:40 PM   #123 
        - I appreciate your post  thinkingwoman   Mar-28-06 04:19 PM   #134 
           - dingdingding!! We have a winner!!!  TygrBright   Mar-28-06 06:18 PM   #160 
              - "...the dewy veil of Emma Lazarus..."  thinkingwoman   Mar-28-06 06:43 PM   #161 
     - Totally in the dark here- is this true?  underpants   Mar-28-06 03:00 PM   #102 
        - Income Tax is not the only taxation.  Bridget Burke   Mar-29-06 07:13 AM   #168 
           - I think income (and FICA taxes)...  thinkingwoman   Mar-29-06 09:04 AM   #173 
  - Right!!!!!!  Joanne98   Mar-28-06 03:02 PM   #105 
  - I'm all for having our voices heard on the illegal immigration issue  thinkingwoman   Mar-28-06 10:52 AM   #4 
  - many of us are tired.......laws were made  bluedog   Mar-28-06 10:55 AM   #8 
  - Thanks...  thinkingwoman   Mar-28-06 11:03 AM   #12 
  - Most immigration in the olden days was legal  kurth   Mar-28-06 11:04 AM   #13 
  - Thank you for reiterating this  thinkingwoman   Mar-28-06 11:07 AM   #18 
  - Well said. The only reason the 'illegal immigrants' benefit ...  TahitiNut   Mar-28-06 11:06 AM   #17 
     - Thanks for the link!  thinkingwoman   Mar-28-06 11:08 AM   # 
  - Nope. They would rather sit in front of their PC's...  Bridget Burke   Mar-28-06 10:54 AM   #6 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Mar-28-06 11:02 AM   #11 
  - That's so ridiculous  thinkingwoman   Mar-28-06 11:05 AM   #14 
  - Yes, I can see the difference. In Nazi Germany Jews were  Cleita   Mar-28-06 11:08 AM   #19 
  - As a Jew myself, I find that really offensive  thinkingwoman   Mar-28-06 11:12 AM   #23 
  - As a Jew you should be offended that this is happening here.  Cleita   Mar-28-06 11:17 AM   #26 
  - I can think for myself thank you.  thinkingwoman   Mar-28-06 01:07 PM   #33 
  - So by your reasoning, you are a criminal when you run a  Cleita   Mar-28-06 01:22 PM   #37 
     - Uh, yeah, actually...  thinkingwoman   Mar-28-06 01:56 PM   #58 
        - Me neither and I'm sixty six.  Cleita   Mar-28-06 02:00 PM   #63 
           - I never said I was perfect  thinkingwoman   Mar-28-06 02:24 PM   #80 
  - Actually, the original Sensenbrenner Immigration bill...  countryjake   Mar-28-06 04:14 PM   #132 
     - I'm always concerned  thinkingwoman   Mar-28-06 05:46 PM   #159 
  - Have you forgotten Jose Padilla and John Walker Lindh? (n/t)  coalition_unwilling   Mar-28-06 03:11 PM   #112 
     - No, have you forgotten the topic at hand?  thinkingwoman   Mar-28-06 04:20 PM   #135 
        - Hmm, I thought I was responding to the "Nazi's rounding up Jews"  coalition_unwilling   Mar-29-06 12:40 PM   #184 
           - that's a stretch  thinkingwoman   Mar-29-06 01:02 PM   #186 
              - Yes, right now it's a question of degree, I'd agree.  coalition_unwilling   Mar-29-06 01:09 PM   #188 
                 - but this is not the topic at hand  thinkingwoman   Mar-29-06 01:30 PM   #191 
                    - But it is relevant to an earlier post about "Nazis rounding up Jews"  coalition_unwilling   Mar-29-06 01:47 PM   #193 
                       - No it isn't  thinkingwoman   Mar-29-06 03:55 PM   #196 
  - The similarities are there, aren't they?  Lars39   Mar-28-06 11:13 AM   #24 
     - Yes and criminalizing these people will lead to the same abuses.  Cleita   Mar-28-06 11:18 AM   #27 
  - Equality under the law. Excellent.  Rockholm   Mar-28-06 03:58 PM   #130 
     - I truly believe  thinkingwoman   Mar-28-06 04:33 PM   #142 
        - Thank you for your kind reply.  Rockholm   Mar-28-06 05:29 PM   #156 
  - we are just stating our you are....  bluedog   Mar-28-06 11:06 AM   #16 
  - You really haven't addressed my point and question so I will  Cleita   Mar-28-06 11:10 AM   #21 
  - Puhleeeze, peddle your broadbrush BS somewhere else  MadHound   Mar-28-06 11:13 AM   #25 
  - Speaking of broad brushes, you assume that all those  Cleita   Mar-28-06 01:28 PM   #39 
     - Ass u me, that is what you are doing  MadHound   Mar-28-06 02:10 PM   #67 
        - Then maybe you should report your foreman to the law for  Cleita   Mar-28-06 02:18 PM   # 
           - Deleted message  Name removed   Mar-28-06 02:34 PM   #89 
              - And I found many of the posts on this thread before this one  Cleita   Mar-28-06 02:50 PM   #96 
                 - Gee, have you considered that the reason for that  MadHound   Mar-28-06 03:16 PM   #113 
                 - How is that?  foreverdem   Mar-28-06 03:21 PM   #114 
  - Not true  foreverdem   Mar-28-06 12:09 PM   #29 
  - If they come in legally, they have to follow a process, which also  Cleita   Mar-28-06 01:49 PM   #46 
     - That's my point  foreverdem   Mar-28-06 01:59 PM   #62 
        - That isn't what happens.  Cleita   Mar-28-06 02:06 PM   #64 
           - Thanks for the explanation...  foreverdem   Mar-28-06 02:18 PM   #72 
              - If you look at the last two amnesties, the reason they were  Cleita   Mar-28-06 02:20 PM   #75 
                 - Nice or not nice doesn't matter  foreverdem   Mar-28-06 02:26 PM   #82 
  - That's bullshit!  CanonRay   Mar-28-06 01:14 PM   #34 
  - So would you support amnesty for illegal aliens?  Marie26   Mar-28-06 01:32 PM   #40 
  - I think they need to loosen the immigration restrictions.  Cleita   Mar-28-06 01:46 PM   #44 
  - NOT amesty, under any circumstances, but  CanonRay   Mar-29-06 08:07 AM   #170 
     - Guest workers  Marie26   Mar-29-06 09:38 AM   #174 
  - When was the last time you could demand fair wages without  Cleita   Mar-28-06 01:34 PM   #42 
  - The race card is so the way my family is Hispanic  justice1   Mar-28-06 01:40 PM   #43 
  - Oh, so I guess your family got in so shut the door behind you?  Cleita   Mar-28-06 01:50 PM   #50 
     - Murder wouldn't be illegal if it were made legal either.  mondo joe   Mar-28-06 02:25 PM   #81 
        - Because what we have isn't working, but the solutions proposed  Cleita   Mar-28-06 02:54 PM   #98 
           - Not working? You mean laws against murder or immigration  mondo joe   Mar-28-06 03:35 PM   #119 
  - That's ridiculous. I am a legal immigrant and I work  NYCparalegal   Mar-28-06 01:56 PM   #57 
  - That's nice and so wholesome of them to obey the law because  Cleita   Mar-28-06 02:09 PM   #66 
     - No, we don't need to. We are not obliged to give entry to  mondo joe   Mar-28-06 02:17 PM   #71 
     - I think we should make an exception for our neighbors,  Cleita   Mar-28-06 02:21 PM   #76 
        - Everyone is our neighbor.  mondo joe   Mar-28-06 02:22 PM   #78 
           - I think we need to raise the quota of immigrants allowed in  Cleita   Mar-28-06 02:57 PM   #99 
              - Really? Can you provide some data to back that up?  mondo joe   Mar-28-06 03:37 PM   #121 
              - I don't know if any number cruncher has been inspired to to a  Cleita   Mar-28-06 05:28 PM   #155 
     - Who said anything about the lottery?  NYCparalegal   Mar-28-06 02:27 PM   #84 
        - You don't know how this works do you?  Cleita   Mar-28-06 02:38 PM   #90 
  - I have a better idea  DrGonzoLives   Mar-28-06 02:15 PM   #70 
     - I didn't call everyone racist.  Cleita   Mar-28-06 02:29 PM   #85 
        - You didn't point out a raw truth. You made an accusation and  mondo joe   Mar-28-06 02:34 PM   #88 
        - Let's look at what you said  DrGonzoLives   Mar-28-06 02:39 PM   #91 
           - Let's really examine what the truth is.  Cleita   Mar-28-06 02:47 PM   #94 
              - You again accuse those who disagree with you of doing so because  mondo joe   Mar-28-06 02:49 PM   #95 
              - Okay, then what would you call it. Enlighten me.  Cleita   Mar-28-06 02:59 PM   #101 
                 - THe GOP isn't appealing to me. I believe in law and due process.  mondo joe   Mar-28-06 03:37 PM   #120 
              - Once again  DrGonzoLives   Mar-28-06 02:53 PM   #97 
  - Be careful what you wish for.  Gormy Cuss   Mar-28-06 11:05 AM   #15 
  - Why are people like this? nt  Marie26   Mar-28-06 01:33 PM   #41 
     - That I don't know.  Gormy Cuss   Mar-28-06 01:47 PM   #45 
        - That's true  Marie26   Mar-29-06 10:40 AM   #176 
  - I'm not sure what to think on the subject.  Johonny   Mar-28-06 11:08 AM   #20 
  - I am sick of being told what to think about illegal immigration  sparosnare   Mar-28-06 11:10 AM   #22 
  - I'm against labor exploitation  sandnsea   Mar-28-06 12:13 PM   #30 
  - Hear! Hear!  TahitiNut   Mar-28-06 01:54 PM   #54 
  - Thank you  DrGonzoLives   Mar-28-06 02:20 PM   #73 
  - Yes, the foundation of the problem is worker exploitation.  hunter   Mar-28-06 03:09 PM   #110 
  - The same pro-worker slavery Democrates will be wondering AFTER...  Cobalt Violet   Mar-28-06 02:20 PM   #74 
  - What is it that people don't get about the word ILLEGAL?  Faux pas   Mar-28-06 12:33 PM   #31 
  - One out of five in federal prisons are illegal aliens  kurth   Mar-28-06 12:45 PM   #32 
  - That's because they can't afford the fancy lawyers other  Cleita   Mar-28-06 01:57 PM   #59 
  - Find a better source than the Center for Immigration Studies.  Bridget Burke   Mar-28-06 02:24 PM   #79 
  - 2003 Federal Bureau of Prisons figure: more than 29 percent  kurth   Mar-28-06 03:07 PM   #108 
  - Let's build private prisons in Mexico. It will create guard jobs.  Joanne98   Mar-28-06 03:10 PM   #111 
  - It never made sense to me to house and feed and care for  Faux pas   Mar-29-06 01:32 AM   #163 
  - damned straight. they should have let him die. That'll show them illegals!  antifaschits   Mar-28-06 03:33 PM   #118 
     - What an ass. I was making the point that if illegals, felons no  Faux pas   Mar-29-06 01:36 AM   #164 
  - Nah, they'd rather whine.  Marie26   Mar-28-06 01:18 PM   #35 
  - I'm an American. I don't oppose "illegal" immigration.  Tierra_y_Libertad   Mar-28-06 01:50 PM   #49 
  - I think there are many of us of the same mind and I think  Cleita   Mar-28-06 01:53 PM   #53 
  - We need to work harder on our elections systems, Cleita.  sfexpat2000   Mar-28-06 02:09 PM   #65 
     - Thanks sfexpat200. For awhile I felt like I had stepped onto  Cleita   Mar-28-06 02:11 PM   #68 
        - I think I have to stay out of this melee because it's pretty  sfexpat2000   Mar-28-06 02:22 PM   #77 
           - Me either. My Spanish is mainly verbal.  Cleita   Mar-28-06 03:01 PM   #103 
  - The National Border is not one of mankind's better inventions.  Bridget Burke   Mar-28-06 03:25 PM   #115 
  - Take it out on the chimp  DanCa   Mar-28-06 01:56 PM   #56 
  - I'll just take my opposition to the ballot, thanks.  mondo joe   Mar-28-06 02:12 PM   #69 
  - Another Republican is born.  Bridget Burke   Mar-28-06 03:26 PM   #116 
     - What a stupid thing to say.  mondo joe   Mar-28-06 03:39 PM   #122 
        - Sorry if I was mistaken.  Bridget Burke   Mar-28-06 03:42 PM   #125 
           - I suggest you stop imagining things.  mondo joe   Mar-28-06 03:45 PM   #126 
              - The protesters were against the latest Republican proposal....  Bridget Burke   Mar-28-06 04:00 PM   #131 
                 - The thread subject line is "Maybe it's time for Americans who..."  mondo joe   Mar-28-06 04:26 PM   #138 
                    - You said that you would express yourself by voting....  Bridget Burke   Mar-29-06 07:09 AM   #167 
                       - I meant by voting in ways that reflect my positions. That includes  mondo joe   Mar-29-06 07:55 AM   #169 
  - It makes you wonder what it would be like if....  jeffrey_X   Mar-28-06 02:31 PM   #86 
  - I suspect the outcry has to do with the easy access for illegal  mondo joe   Mar-28-06 02:32 PM   #87 
  - That's why I made the point about  jeffrey_X   Mar-28-06 05:19 PM   #153 
     - If everything were the same but the ethnicity, I think most of us would  mondo joe   Mar-28-06 11:10 PM   #162 
  - It used to be, I think, about 2.5 million non-Hispanic ...  countryjake   Mar-28-06 04:25 PM   #137 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Mar-28-06 03:01 PM   #104 
  - But--surely racism & xenophobia have nothing to do with it!  Bridget Burke   Mar-28-06 03:28 PM   #117 
  - Why?  countryjake   Mar-28-06 04:53 PM   #150 
  - They won't get in the streets b/c they're too comfortable in their  coalition_unwilling   Mar-28-06 03:04 PM   #106 
  - For the record  slide to the left   Mar-28-06 03:41 PM   #124 
  - I've lived in Texas most of my life....  Bridget Burke   Mar-28-06 03:54 PM   #128 
  - why do you think all latinos in Texas are there illegally?  thinkingwoman   Mar-28-06 04:28 PM   #140 
     - well  slide to the left   Mar-29-06 08:14 AM   #171 
        - Hey, I guess those illegals that you know  thinkingwoman   Mar-29-06 09:01 AM   #172 
           - yeah  slide to the left   Mar-29-06 10:19 AM   #175 
              - Actually  thinkingwoman   Mar-29-06 10:40 AM   #177 
                 - Well  slide to the left   Mar-29-06 11:03 AM   #179 
                    - Don't get me wrong...  thinkingwoman   Mar-29-06 11:11 AM   #181 
  - Do it then. Don't just stand around and whine. Do it!  Beausoir   Mar-28-06 04:26 PM   #139 
  - Um  RagingInMiami   Mar-29-06 04:01 AM   #166 
  - Nah, they still think that their leaders are gonna take care of all that..  countryjake   Mar-28-06 04:37 PM   #146 
  - Que Viva!  sfexpat2000   Mar-28-06 05:27 PM   #154 
  - Well, go ahead. I won't be there.  Redstone   Mar-29-06 11:12 AM   #182 
  - It's about more than self-interest -- It's about American Values  pat_k   Mar-29-06 01:13 PM   #189 
  - I've heard many heart-rending complaints about the American Worker....  Bridget Burke   Mar-29-06 01:35 PM   #192 

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