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ninkasi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-19-06 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #86
153. I read it, and agree
I understand that one of the climbers had an injured arm, and that might have been the factor that lead to a complete disaster. I just can't accept, though, that society as a whole will base whether or not to rescue somebody should be based on whether "they should have known better,", or "hey, why should I have to pay for somebody else's problems?".

Look at the enormous amounts we taxpayers are already expected to pay to protect corporate interests overseas. We pay in both taxes, and in the lives of our children. As long as a society is expected to pay for big corporations to make ungodly amounts of money, I don't think we should balk at whatever our share of rescuing our fellow humans is.

As a country, we have become much more cynical, brutal, and angry. I was born during the FDR years, and I saw much of the progressive movement evolve. Since Reagan, we've changed, and the gap between rich and the rest of us has widened enormously. Because our tax money is so overused for military interventions in unnecessary wars, such as the one in Iraq, there is less to spend on social services. Everybody is feeling burdened, and it might be that thinking about how much is spent to rescue the climbers comes when some of us are facing financial hardships.

Let's not forget our common humanity, and become so callous that we begrudge helping each other when we're in need. I'd rather have my tax money used to save life, than to take it.
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  -Since when do liberals think that rescue search and rescue costs of need to be collected? xultar  Dec-18-06 02:54 PM   #0 
  - The extrme left libertarian  nadinbrzezinski   Dec-18-06 02:57 PM   #1 
  - huh?  endarkenment   Dec-18-06 03:21 PM   #40 
     - which is, of course  northzax   Dec-18-06 07:11 PM   #97 
        - Indeed. This certainly has nothing to do with libertarianism.  endarkenment   Dec-19-06 06:42 AM   #106 
  - Well I think it's folly to pretend that liberals think a certain way  bryant69   Dec-18-06 02:57 PM   #2 
  - I'm with you... I can see both sides of this issue  nini   Dec-18-06 03:09 PM   #22 
  - The searchers are volunteers, I think.  kestrel91316   Dec-18-06 03:33 PM   #54 
  - Yes  BoneDaddy   Dec-19-06 06:45 AM   #107 
     - I think you miss the issue of personal responsibility.  cryingshame   Dec-19-06 09:37 AM   #149 
        - What are you  BoneDaddy   Dec-19-06 09:42 AM   #150 
  - what the hell are you talking about?  NVMojo   Dec-18-06 02:57 PM   #3 
  - This is actually one of the safest times to climb  LostinVA   Dec-19-06 06:47 AM   #108 
  - yes, you can't  northzax   Dec-19-06 08:25 AM   #121 
  - Just don't hike in the dead of winter.  Connie_Corleone   Dec-18-06 02:58 PM   #4 
  - I don't think that was their problem. One of the guys got hurt and things  xultar   Dec-18-06 03:01 PM   #7 
  - Silly me. I thought it was possible to get stranded.....  Kingshakabobo   Dec-18-06 03:05 PM   #14 
  - Nope apparently you can only get lost in the woods during the winter.  xultar   Dec-18-06 03:10 PM   #26 
     - It was just a joke. Geez.  Connie_Corleone   Dec-18-06 03:21 PM   #37 
        - Sorry, I didn't get the joke. Some of the things people are saying make  xultar   Dec-18-06 03:25 PM   #45 
  - GPS are not magical devices  seemunkee   Dec-18-06 03:09 PM   #23 
  - It was a FUCKIN' JOKE!  Connie_Corleone   Dec-18-06 03:20 PM   #36 
  - They aren't "hikers", BTW. They are serious climbers,  kestrel91316   Dec-18-06 03:35 PM   #57 
     - OP used the word hikers. Just responding to the OP.  Connie_Corleone   Dec-18-06 03:37 PM   #59 
  - I don't know why people have become so callous and uncaring  neverforget   Dec-18-06 02:59 PM   #5 
  - Thanks for the voice of reason...  phusion   Dec-18-06 03:04 PM   #12 
  - This is one more way the trolls come out of the woodwork.  kestrel91316   Dec-18-06 03:38 PM   #60 
  - AMEN!!!  xultar   Dec-18-06 03:06 PM   #17 
  - Thank you -- excellent post  LostinVA   Dec-19-06 06:48 AM   #109 
  - Not me  BOSSHOG   Dec-18-06 02:59 PM   #6 
  - Sierra Madre S&R (the big one here in So Cal) is all  kestrel91316   Dec-18-06 03:40 PM   #63 
     - God Bless Em!  BOSSHOG   Dec-18-06 03:45 PM   #69 
     - Volunteer organizations need money too.  Lasher   Dec-19-06 08:52 AM   #134 
  - taxes go for police and fire departments too...  itsmesgd   Dec-18-06 03:01 PM   #8 
  - Still, those are normal risks of life  treestar   Dec-18-06 03:16 PM   #33 
     - So should somebody who exceeds safe driving speeds in  kestrel91316   Dec-18-06 03:43 PM   #67 
  - I'm not sure, but I'm also not sure that this was a case of respecting nature either  Truth Hurts A Lot   Dec-18-06 03:02 PM   #9 
  - Who held the gun to the hiker's heads?  BobRossi   Dec-18-06 03:03 PM   #10 
  - So you don't expect anyone to help you if you fall and break your leg  xultar   Dec-18-06 03:05 PM   #15 
  - That is correct!  BobRossi   Dec-18-06 03:07 PM   #18 
  - Most mountaineers and even hikers would scoff at the suggestion  kestrel91316   Dec-18-06 03:45 PM   #70 
     - Even guides can get lost/hurt and require SAR  Squatch   Dec-19-06 08:37 AM   #129 
        - Part of the no-bid contract would no doubt include a clause  kestrel91316   Dec-19-06 11:55 AM   #158 
  - Excellent point.  cwydro   Dec-18-06 03:09 PM   #21 
  - You're not that inacessible there  treestar   Dec-18-06 03:20 PM   #35 
  - Yes you are. You could fall onto a ledge that reqires a helicopter for a lift out.  xultar   Dec-18-06 03:21 PM   #39 
  - That's easy ...  JustABozoOnThisBus   Dec-18-06 03:40 PM   #64 
     - So you burn down your house...they have to rescue you and air lift to hospital..  xultar   Dec-18-06 03:50 PM   #73 
        - Most people can live without extreme mountain climbing. Most people cannot  valerief   Dec-18-06 04:20 PM   #84 
        - But the argument is it's their fault.  Pithlet   Dec-18-06 06:37 PM   #94 
           - Yes, charge them. nt  valerief   Dec-19-06 08:27 AM   #122 
        - What house?  JustABozoOnThisBus   Dec-18-06 05:09 PM   #90 
  - No one.. who put a gun to the head of someone hit by a drunk driver?  nini   Dec-18-06 03:12 PM   #27 
  - Should you expect help? Yes, you should.  Pithlet   Dec-18-06 03:16 PM   #32 
  - Who stole your humanity?  Beelzebud   Dec-19-06 09:27 AM   #146 
  - Since the 'toughest mountain man' competition went online  Little Wing   Dec-18-06 03:03 PM   #11 
  - Middle class white guys  cwydro   Dec-18-06 03:04 PM   #13 
  - I wonder where plain ol' humanity is anymore  nini   Dec-18-06 03:13 PM   #30 
     - Funny in another thread some DUers advocating shooting dogs that  xultar   Dec-18-06 03:54 PM   #75 
  - No one has claimed not to care  TakesAVillage_People   Dec-18-06 03:05 PM   #16 
  - There are some people who can't separate the two  treestar   Dec-18-06 03:21 PM   #38 
  - I hear you  TakesAVillage_People   Dec-18-06 03:25 PM   #44 
  - Have you read some of the posts? People are calling them stupid  xultar   Dec-18-06 03:28 PM   #47 
  - They do pay for the SAR in advance--with taxes...  piedmont   Dec-18-06 03:39 PM   #61 
  - That is what I thought.  xultar   Dec-18-06 03:45 PM   #71 
  - Outdoor recreation is a big moneymaker in the US. If you  kestrel91316   Dec-18-06 03:48 PM   #72 
     - So true!!!  xultar   Dec-18-06 03:50 PM   #74 
     - Some sort of weird disconnect  sandnsea   Dec-19-06 11:31 AM   #155 
  - Perspective......  jus_the_facts   Dec-18-06 03:08 PM   #19 
  - EXACTLY!!!  xultar   Dec-18-06 03:39 PM   #62 
  - "liberals"? Where?  TahitiNut   Dec-18-06 03:08 PM   #20 
  - I would rather finance 100 of these rescues.....  bobbiejo   Dec-18-06 03:09 PM   #24 
  - BRILLIANT!  xultar   Dec-18-06 03:33 PM   #53 
  - okay. you're crazy.  sui generis   Dec-18-06 03:10 PM   #25 
  - What about the fire department rescuing you from your burning kitchen?  xultar   Dec-18-06 03:19 PM   #34 
  - Some would argue taking on Mt. Hood in December is not a walk in the park.  lectrobyte   Dec-18-06 03:22 PM   #41 
  - Depends on the park.  xultar   Dec-18-06 03:23 PM   #43 
  - Taking on Mt. Hood in Dec is safer than doing same in,  kestrel91316   Dec-18-06 04:05 PM   #77 
  - Thanks, I did not know that. It still seems risky, though,  lectrobyte   Dec-18-06 05:05 PM   #88 
  - Of course it's risky, but there are no risk-free endeavors worth  kestrel91316   Dec-18-06 08:28 PM   #99 
  - 133 people killed in 100 years on Mt Hood. Over 40,000 permits to climb issued per year.  piedmont   Dec-18-06 09:05 PM   #100 
  - this particular route (through the Gullies) probably yes  northzax   Dec-19-06 08:28 AM   #123 
  - technically, you are correct  northzax   Dec-19-06 08:29 AM   #125 
  - everything must pass my approval  sui generis   Dec-18-06 04:22 PM   #85 
  - N.O. is a good analogy. Remember "If you're stupid enough to live in New Orleans...?"  KrazyKat   Dec-18-06 07:04 PM   #96 
  - I think there are restriction or some sort of insurance for rescue  kestrel91316   Dec-18-06 04:03 PM   #76 
  - Good thing I drive a big 4 wheel drive gas guzzling SUV.....  Kingshakabobo   Dec-18-06 03:12 PM   #28 
  - Usually in need refers to the poor.  treestar   Dec-18-06 03:12 PM   #29 
  - Why should we have to pay  Pithlet   Dec-18-06 03:22 PM   #42 
  - No, 'in need' means anyone rich or poor who needs something like...  xultar   Dec-18-06 03:32 PM   #52 
  - If they are wealthy, they are already paying through their taxes.  mondo joe   Dec-19-06 11:21 AM   #154 
  - We're talking about human beings here...  DixieBlue   Dec-19-06 11:54 AM   #157 
  - I could never be so damn liberal that  TakesAVillage_People   Dec-18-06 03:14 PM   #31 
  - Well, lucky for the rest of us  Pithlet   Dec-18-06 03:27 PM   #46 
  - Well,  TakesAVillage_People   Dec-18-06 03:28 PM   #49 
  - yes, we are responsible for our actions - definitely  nini   Dec-18-06 03:30 PM   #51 
     - With all due respect,  TakesAVillage_People   Dec-18-06 03:34 PM   #55 
        - huh? the subject line in the OP says 'search and rescue'  nini   Dec-18-06 03:43 PM   #68 
  - climbing Mt Hood in winter is foolish  leftofthedial   Dec-18-06 03:28 PM   #48 
  - So you're saying you can't break you leg climbing Mt. Hood in the summer and get stuck.  xultar   Dec-18-06 03:29 PM   #50 
  - I did not say that.  leftofthedial   Dec-18-06 03:35 PM   #58 
     - And you know this how? nt  piedmont   Dec-18-06 03:41 PM   #65 
  - I went snow climbing in the Sierras in January. i have also done the same  kestrel91316   Dec-18-06 04:08 PM   #79 
  - I think on DU  Pithlet   Dec-18-06 03:35 PM   #56 
  - delete...  Virginia Dare   Dec-18-06 03:42 PM   #66 
  - It's completely ridiculous: It's an uber-capitalist, uber-privatization position  alcibiades_mystery   Dec-18-06 04:07 PM   #78 
  - May I take the liberty of a re-post on this?  TygrBright   Dec-18-06 04:09 PM   #80 
  - I likes! Great discussion points.  xultar   Dec-18-06 04:29 PM   #86 
  - I read it, and agree  ninkasi   Dec-19-06 11:18 AM   #153 
  - If that's the kind of stuff you're into, you'd love the Guns forum...  piedmont   Dec-18-06 09:16 PM   #102 
  - I know some of the responses I've read make me sick.  dionysus   Dec-18-06 04:15 PM   #81 
  - This was not an accident. This was an avoidable risk. They didn't  valerief   Dec-18-06 04:15 PM   #82 
  - Kind of like women who have sex but then want an abortion. Avoidable  mondo joe   Dec-18-06 09:07 PM   #101 
  - I don't see the risk of death involved with your flame. nt  valerief   Dec-19-06 08:19 AM   #117 
     - Is death the only risk? What about risk of pregnancy?  mondo joe   Dec-19-06 08:21 AM   #118 
        - Death of the rescue team is the risk we're talking about in this thread. nt  valerief   Dec-19-06 08:28 AM   #124 
           - Really? You mean the volunteers who love to do rescues?  mondo joe   Dec-19-06 08:49 AM   #133 
              - No, the ones who don't love to do it. nt  valerief   Dec-19-06 08:53 AM   #136 
                 - Which ones are those?  mondo joe   Dec-19-06 08:54 AM   #138 
  - What probabilty of death is acceptable to you?  piedmont   Dec-18-06 09:21 PM   #103 
     - I know that if I get stuck on a remote mountain in a storm and hurt myself I'll probably die there.  valerief   Dec-19-06 08:22 AM   #119 
        - Mt Hood? remote?  northzax   Dec-19-06 08:32 AM   #126 
           - I think the top is remote otherwise they'd be home by now. Duh.  valerief   Dec-19-06 08:32 AM   #127 
              - I think they fell off a cliff  northzax   Dec-19-06 08:33 AM   #128 
                 - Your point escapes me. nt  valerief   Dec-19-06 08:52 AM   #135 
                    - it's not that it is remote  northzax   Dec-19-06 09:06 AM   #142 
  - I agree with your point, but I also should point out that many of the outdoors people I know  WI_DEM   Dec-18-06 04:17 PM   #83 
  - I love wilderness and hiking and shit like that.  cobalt1999   Dec-18-06 04:43 PM   #87 
  - Meh.  Bornaginhooligan   Dec-18-06 05:05 PM   #89 
  - I'm With You  REP   Dec-18-06 05:22 PM   #91 
  - They Don't. Don't Judge A Philosophy By The Exceptions Of Crazies, For They Are Low In Number. n/t  OPERATIONMINDCRIME   Dec-18-06 05:28 PM   #92 
  - It is always the crazies that are the loudest.  xultar   Dec-18-06 06:20 PM   #93 
  - Using the "no rescue because they were stupid," rule, the following people are out of luck:  KrazyKat   Dec-18-06 07:00 PM   #95 
  - That last one is the key!  xultar   Dec-19-06 07:52 AM   #113 
  - kind of on a tangent... could we make some variant of ELTs available to all hikers?  0rganism   Dec-18-06 07:41 PM   #98 
  - I haven't read the entire thread yet BUT,  FlaGranny   Dec-18-06 09:29 PM   #104 
  - Put on your galoshes Granny, and wade into the thread....  piedmont   Dec-18-06 09:56 PM   #105 
  - GRanny- a brief explanation  northzax   Dec-19-06 08:45 AM   #131 
     - I know the rescuers can say it's too dangerous and not  FlaGranny   Dec-19-06 12:56 PM   #159 
  - Whodda thunk...  Everybody   Dec-19-06 07:07 AM   #110 
  - It's not personal responsibility. It is about a society helping the people.  xultar   Dec-19-06 07:51 AM   #112 
  - I'm a flaming liberal, but I'd still buy medevac insurance to pay the bills if something happened...  gulfcoastliberal   Dec-19-06 07:10 AM   #111 
  - Medevac insurance is different than search and rescue.  xultar   Dec-19-06 08:19 AM   #116 
  - I don't have a dog in this fight. But I'm not a big fan of "you're-not-a-real-liberal" threads.  Skinner   Dec-19-06 07:54 AM   #114 
  - I'm just asking. That's all. Putting up a mirror. I never thought that search and rescue  xultar   Dec-19-06 08:16 AM   #115 
     - Why are you picking on New Orleans?  Lurking_Argyle   Dec-19-06 08:54 AM   #139 
     - EXACTLY! Them too.  xultar   Dec-19-06 09:06 AM   #141 
     - Who says I don't like your posts?  Skinner   Dec-19-06 09:31 AM   #148 
  - Perhaps The Same As Those That Think. . .  ProfessorGAC   Dec-19-06 08:24 AM   #120 
  - Are you kidding. I've never been camping in my life. I've never been to camp.  xultar   Dec-19-06 08:43 AM   #130 
     - I Think We're Agreeing  ProfessorGAC   Dec-19-06 08:53 AM   #137 
        - Oh I agree with you. It was a silly litmus test. I knew that when I posted it.  xultar   Dec-19-06 09:21 AM   #144 
           - Consider It Accounted!  ProfessorGAC   Dec-19-06 09:25 AM   #145 
  - I'm a flaming liberal, too. But the costs of risk-taking ought to be borne by the risk-takers.  WinkyDink   Dec-19-06 08:48 AM   #132 
  - How about insurance?  JNelson6563   Dec-19-06 08:55 AM   #140 
  - Search and rescue first, then figure out the payments if necessary  Norquist Nemesis   Dec-19-06 09:19 AM   #143 
  - Save those taxpayers dollars and spend them on something useful-Iraq.  Swede   Dec-19-06 09:29 AM   #147 
  - Let's face it, America has caught the mean and selfish virus  AchtungToddler   Dec-19-06 09:51 AM   #151 
  - And it appears to be chronic. n/t  bling bling   Dec-19-06 11:39 AM   #156 
  - What about being Responsible Humans for their actions?  TriMetFan   Dec-19-06 10:45 AM   #152 
  - They don't.  lildreamer316   Dec-20-06 02:44 AM   #160 
  - well basically I have a problem being told I'm heartless  sui generis   Dec-20-06 09:12 AM   #161 
     - I'd suggest the actual Oregon law is a nice balance on responsibility.  mondo joe   Dec-20-06 09:16 AM   #162 

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