TygrBright
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Mon Dec-18-06 04:09 PM
Response to Original message |
| 80. May I take the liberty of a re-post on this? |
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>> The Real Cost of Living in a Conservative/Libertarian Society Posted by TygrBright in General Discussion: Politics Fri Aug 11th 2006, 01:31 AM I’ve read a lot of threads/posts on DU lately that run something like this: 1. News article is posted describing dire consequences for ordinary citizens who undertake some investment or risk of modern American life. 2. Group A of DU readers comment on how terrible it is that people suffer so. 3. Group B of DU readers point out that the people in the article TOOK A RISK and it’s their own fault if they didn’t ‘do enough homework’ to know it was too risky, or were too heedless or greedy or otherwise culpable, and personal responsibility is an important and desirable characteristic of adult citizens. 4. A mixed bag of Group A readers and new (Group C) readers expresses umbrage at Group B for ‘blaming the victim’ or insufficiently understanding why people NEED to take those risks, etc. 5. The thread evolves into a discussion of responsibility vs. need, including reams of ‘Well, when *I* was in those peoples’ situation’ stories that illustrate either how the people in the article SHOULD have handled the situation, or how unavoidable such dire consequences can be based on various factors beyond the control of an otherwise reasonable and responsible person. And it seems to me that we’re missing the point we should be discussing, which is, what types of risks, and to what degree, should a community attempt to shield its members from? And what are the consequences to the community of ‘over-shielding’ versus ‘under-shielding’ people from risks?<< The rest of it can be found here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph... opinionatedly, Bright
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| -Since when do liberals think that rescue search and rescue costs of need to be collected? |
xultar |
Dec-18-06 02:54 PM |
#0 |
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The extrme left libertarian |
nadinbrzezinski |
Dec-18-06 02:57 PM |
#1 |
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huh? |
endarkenment |
Dec-18-06 03:21 PM |
#40 |
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which is, of course |
northzax |
Dec-18-06 07:11 PM |
#97 |
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Indeed. This certainly has nothing to do with libertarianism. |
endarkenment |
Dec-19-06 06:42 AM |
#106 |
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Well I think it's folly to pretend that liberals think a certain way |
bryant69 |
Dec-18-06 02:57 PM |
#2 |
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I'm with you... I can see both sides of this issue |
nini |
Dec-18-06 03:09 PM |
#22 |
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The searchers are volunteers, I think. |
kestrel91316 |
Dec-18-06 03:33 PM |
#54 |
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Yes |
BoneDaddy |
Dec-19-06 06:45 AM |
#107 |
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I think you miss the issue of personal responsibility. |
cryingshame |
Dec-19-06 09:37 AM |
#149 |
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What are you |
BoneDaddy |
Dec-19-06 09:42 AM |
#150 |
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what the hell are you talking about? |
NVMojo |
Dec-18-06 02:57 PM |
#3 |
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This is actually one of the safest times to climb |
LostinVA |
Dec-19-06 06:47 AM |
#108 |
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yes, you can't |
northzax |
Dec-19-06 08:25 AM |
#121 |
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Just don't hike in the dead of winter. |
Connie_Corleone |
Dec-18-06 02:58 PM |
#4 |
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I don't think that was their problem. One of the guys got hurt and things |
xultar |
Dec-18-06 03:01 PM |
#7 |
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Silly me. I thought it was possible to get stranded..... |
Kingshakabobo |
Dec-18-06 03:05 PM |
#14 |
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Nope apparently you can only get lost in the woods during the winter. |
xultar |
Dec-18-06 03:10 PM |
#26 |
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It was just a joke. Geez. |
Connie_Corleone |
Dec-18-06 03:21 PM |
#37 |
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Sorry, I didn't get the joke. Some of the things people are saying make |
xultar |
Dec-18-06 03:25 PM |
#45 |
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GPS are not magical devices |
seemunkee |
Dec-18-06 03:09 PM |
#23 |
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It was a FUCKIN' JOKE! |
Connie_Corleone |
Dec-18-06 03:20 PM |
#36 |
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They aren't "hikers", BTW. They are serious climbers, |
kestrel91316 |
Dec-18-06 03:35 PM |
#57 |
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OP used the word hikers. Just responding to the OP. |
Connie_Corleone |
Dec-18-06 03:37 PM |
#59 |
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I don't know why people have become so callous and uncaring |
neverforget |
Dec-18-06 02:59 PM |
#5 |
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Thanks for the voice of reason... |
phusion |
Dec-18-06 03:04 PM |
#12 |
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This is one more way the trolls come out of the woodwork. |
kestrel91316 |
Dec-18-06 03:38 PM |
#60 |
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AMEN!!! |
xultar |
Dec-18-06 03:06 PM |
#17 |
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Thank you -- excellent post |
LostinVA |
Dec-19-06 06:48 AM |
#109 |
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Not me |
BOSSHOG |
Dec-18-06 02:59 PM |
#6 |
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Sierra Madre S&R (the big one here in So Cal) is all |
kestrel91316 |
Dec-18-06 03:40 PM |
#63 |
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God Bless Em! |
BOSSHOG |
Dec-18-06 03:45 PM |
#69 |
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Volunteer organizations need money too. |
Lasher |
Dec-19-06 08:52 AM |
#134 |
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taxes go for police and fire departments too... |
itsmesgd |
Dec-18-06 03:01 PM |
#8 |
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Still, those are normal risks of life |
treestar |
Dec-18-06 03:16 PM |
#33 |
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So should somebody who exceeds safe driving speeds in |
kestrel91316 |
Dec-18-06 03:43 PM |
#67 |
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I'm not sure, but I'm also not sure that this was a case of respecting nature either |
Truth Hurts A Lot |
Dec-18-06 03:02 PM |
#9 |
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Who held the gun to the hiker's heads? |
BobRossi |
Dec-18-06 03:03 PM |
#10 |
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So you don't expect anyone to help you if you fall and break your leg |
xultar |
Dec-18-06 03:05 PM |
#15 |
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That is correct! |
BobRossi |
Dec-18-06 03:07 PM |
#18 |
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Most mountaineers and even hikers would scoff at the suggestion |
kestrel91316 |
Dec-18-06 03:45 PM |
#70 |
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Even guides can get lost/hurt and require SAR |
Squatch |
Dec-19-06 08:37 AM |
#129 |
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Part of the no-bid contract would no doubt include a clause |
kestrel91316 |
Dec-19-06 11:55 AM |
#158 |
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Excellent point. |
cwydro |
Dec-18-06 03:09 PM |
#21 |
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You're not that inacessible there |
treestar |
Dec-18-06 03:20 PM |
#35 |
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Yes you are. You could fall onto a ledge that reqires a helicopter for a lift out. |
xultar |
Dec-18-06 03:21 PM |
#39 |
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That's easy ... |
JustABozoOnThisBus |
Dec-18-06 03:40 PM |
#64 |
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So you burn down your house...they have to rescue you and air lift to hospital.. |
xultar |
Dec-18-06 03:50 PM |
#73 |
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Most people can live without extreme mountain climbing. Most people cannot |
valerief |
Dec-18-06 04:20 PM |
#84 |
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But the argument is it's their fault. |
Pithlet |
Dec-18-06 06:37 PM |
#94 |
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Yes, charge them. nt |
valerief |
Dec-19-06 08:27 AM |
#122 |
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What house? |
JustABozoOnThisBus |
Dec-18-06 05:09 PM |
#90 |
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No one.. who put a gun to the head of someone hit by a drunk driver? |
nini |
Dec-18-06 03:12 PM |
#27 |
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Should you expect help? Yes, you should. |
Pithlet |
Dec-18-06 03:16 PM |
#32 |
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Who stole your humanity? |
Beelzebud |
Dec-19-06 09:27 AM |
#146 |
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Since the 'toughest mountain man' competition went online |
Little Wing |
Dec-18-06 03:03 PM |
#11 |
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Middle class white guys |
cwydro |
Dec-18-06 03:04 PM |
#13 |
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I wonder where plain ol' humanity is anymore |
nini |
Dec-18-06 03:13 PM |
#30 |
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Funny in another thread some DUers advocating shooting dogs that |
xultar |
Dec-18-06 03:54 PM |
#75 |
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No one has claimed not to care |
TakesAVillage_People |
Dec-18-06 03:05 PM |
#16 |
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There are some people who can't separate the two |
treestar |
Dec-18-06 03:21 PM |
#38 |
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I hear you |
TakesAVillage_People |
Dec-18-06 03:25 PM |
#44 |
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Have you read some of the posts? People are calling them stupid |
xultar |
Dec-18-06 03:28 PM |
#47 |
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They do pay for the SAR in advance--with taxes... |
piedmont |
Dec-18-06 03:39 PM |
#61 |
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That is what I thought. |
xultar |
Dec-18-06 03:45 PM |
#71 |
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Outdoor recreation is a big moneymaker in the US. If you |
kestrel91316 |
Dec-18-06 03:48 PM |
#72 |
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So true!!! |
xultar |
Dec-18-06 03:50 PM |
#74 |
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Some sort of weird disconnect |
sandnsea |
Dec-19-06 11:31 AM |
#155 |
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Perspective...... |
jus_the_facts |
Dec-18-06 03:08 PM |
#19 |
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EXACTLY!!! |
xultar |
Dec-18-06 03:39 PM |
#62 |
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"liberals"? Where? |
TahitiNut |
Dec-18-06 03:08 PM |
#20 |
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I would rather finance 100 of these rescues..... |
bobbiejo |
Dec-18-06 03:09 PM |
#24 |
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BRILLIANT! |
xultar |
Dec-18-06 03:33 PM |
#53 |
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okay. you're crazy. |
sui generis |
Dec-18-06 03:10 PM |
#25 |
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What about the fire department rescuing you from your burning kitchen? |
xultar |
Dec-18-06 03:19 PM |
#34 |
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Some would argue taking on Mt. Hood in December is not a walk in the park. |
lectrobyte |
Dec-18-06 03:22 PM |
#41 |
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Depends on the park. |
xultar |
Dec-18-06 03:23 PM |
#43 |
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Taking on Mt. Hood in Dec is safer than doing same in, |
kestrel91316 |
Dec-18-06 04:05 PM |
#77 |
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Thanks, I did not know that. It still seems risky, though, |
lectrobyte |
Dec-18-06 05:05 PM |
#88 |
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Of course it's risky, but there are no risk-free endeavors worth |
kestrel91316 |
Dec-18-06 08:28 PM |
#99 |
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133 people killed in 100 years on Mt Hood. Over 40,000 permits to climb issued per year. |
piedmont |
Dec-18-06 09:05 PM |
#100 |
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this particular route (through the Gullies) probably yes |
northzax |
Dec-19-06 08:28 AM |
#123 |
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technically, you are correct |
northzax |
Dec-19-06 08:29 AM |
#125 |
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everything must pass my approval |
sui generis |
Dec-18-06 04:22 PM |
#85 |
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N.O. is a good analogy. Remember "If you're stupid enough to live in New Orleans...?" |
KrazyKat |
Dec-18-06 07:04 PM |
#96 |
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I think there are restriction or some sort of insurance for rescue |
kestrel91316 |
Dec-18-06 04:03 PM |
#76 |
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Good thing I drive a big 4 wheel drive gas guzzling SUV..... |
Kingshakabobo |
Dec-18-06 03:12 PM |
#28 |
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Usually in need refers to the poor. |
treestar |
Dec-18-06 03:12 PM |
#29 |
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Why should we have to pay |
Pithlet |
Dec-18-06 03:22 PM |
#42 |
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No, 'in need' means anyone rich or poor who needs something like... |
xultar |
Dec-18-06 03:32 PM |
#52 |
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If they are wealthy, they are already paying through their taxes. |
mondo joe |
Dec-19-06 11:21 AM |
#154 |
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We're talking about human beings here... |
DixieBlue |
Dec-19-06 11:54 AM |
#157 |
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I could never be so damn liberal that |
TakesAVillage_People |
Dec-18-06 03:14 PM |
#31 |
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Well, lucky for the rest of us |
Pithlet |
Dec-18-06 03:27 PM |
#46 |
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Well, |
TakesAVillage_People |
Dec-18-06 03:28 PM |
#49 |
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yes, we are responsible for our actions - definitely |
nini |
Dec-18-06 03:30 PM |
#51 |
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With all due respect, |
TakesAVillage_People |
Dec-18-06 03:34 PM |
#55 |
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huh? the subject line in the OP says 'search and rescue' |
nini |
Dec-18-06 03:43 PM |
#68 |
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climbing Mt Hood in winter is foolish |
leftofthedial |
Dec-18-06 03:28 PM |
#48 |
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So you're saying you can't break you leg climbing Mt. Hood in the summer and get stuck. |
xultar |
Dec-18-06 03:29 PM |
#50 |
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I did not say that. |
leftofthedial |
Dec-18-06 03:35 PM |
#58 |
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And you know this how? nt |
piedmont |
Dec-18-06 03:41 PM |
#65 |
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I went snow climbing in the Sierras in January. i have also done the same |
kestrel91316 |
Dec-18-06 04:08 PM |
#79 |
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I think on DU |
Pithlet |
Dec-18-06 03:35 PM |
#56 |
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delete... |
Virginia Dare |
Dec-18-06 03:42 PM |
#66 |
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It's completely ridiculous: It's an uber-capitalist, uber-privatization position |
alcibiades_mystery |
Dec-18-06 04:07 PM |
#78 |
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May I take the liberty of a re-post on this? |
TygrBright |
Dec-18-06 04:09 PM |
#80 |
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I likes! Great discussion points. |
xultar |
Dec-18-06 04:29 PM |
#86 |
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I read it, and agree |
ninkasi |
Dec-19-06 11:18 AM |
#153 |
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If that's the kind of stuff you're into, you'd love the Guns forum... |
piedmont |
Dec-18-06 09:16 PM |
#102 |
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I know some of the responses I've read make me sick. |
dionysus |
Dec-18-06 04:15 PM |
#81 |
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This was not an accident. This was an avoidable risk. They didn't |
valerief |
Dec-18-06 04:15 PM |
#82 |
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Kind of like women who have sex but then want an abortion. Avoidable |
mondo joe |
Dec-18-06 09:07 PM |
#101 |
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I don't see the risk of death involved with your flame. nt |
valerief |
Dec-19-06 08:19 AM |
#117 |
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Is death the only risk? What about risk of pregnancy? |
mondo joe |
Dec-19-06 08:21 AM |
#118 |
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Death of the rescue team is the risk we're talking about in this thread. nt |
valerief |
Dec-19-06 08:28 AM |
#124 |
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Really? You mean the volunteers who love to do rescues? |
mondo joe |
Dec-19-06 08:49 AM |
#133 |
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No, the ones who don't love to do it. nt |
valerief |
Dec-19-06 08:53 AM |
#136 |
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Which ones are those? |
mondo joe |
Dec-19-06 08:54 AM |
#138 |
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What probabilty of death is acceptable to you? |
piedmont |
Dec-18-06 09:21 PM |
#103 |
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I know that if I get stuck on a remote mountain in a storm and hurt myself I'll probably die there. |
valerief |
Dec-19-06 08:22 AM |
#119 |
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Mt Hood? remote? |
northzax |
Dec-19-06 08:32 AM |
#126 |
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I think the top is remote otherwise they'd be home by now. Duh. |
valerief |
Dec-19-06 08:32 AM |
#127 |
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I think they fell off a cliff |
northzax |
Dec-19-06 08:33 AM |
#128 |
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Your point escapes me. nt |
valerief |
Dec-19-06 08:52 AM |
#135 |
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it's not that it is remote |
northzax |
Dec-19-06 09:06 AM |
#142 |
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I agree with your point, but I also should point out that many of the outdoors people I know |
WI_DEM |
Dec-18-06 04:17 PM |
#83 |
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I love wilderness and hiking and shit like that. |
cobalt1999 |
Dec-18-06 04:43 PM |
#87 |
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Meh. |
Bornaginhooligan |
Dec-18-06 05:05 PM |
#89 |
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I'm With You |
REP |
Dec-18-06 05:22 PM |
#91 |
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They Don't. Don't Judge A Philosophy By The Exceptions Of Crazies, For They Are Low In Number. n/t |
OPERATIONMINDCRIME |
Dec-18-06 05:28 PM |
#92 |
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It is always the crazies that are the loudest. |
xultar |
Dec-18-06 06:20 PM |
#93 |
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Using the "no rescue because they were stupid," rule, the following people are out of luck: |
KrazyKat |
Dec-18-06 07:00 PM |
#95 |
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That last one is the key! |
xultar |
Dec-19-06 07:52 AM |
#113 |
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kind of on a tangent... could we make some variant of ELTs available to all hikers? |
0rganism |
Dec-18-06 07:41 PM |
#98 |
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I haven't read the entire thread yet BUT, |
FlaGranny |
Dec-18-06 09:29 PM |
#104 |
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Put on your galoshes Granny, and wade into the thread.... |
piedmont |
Dec-18-06 09:56 PM |
#105 |
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GRanny- a brief explanation |
northzax |
Dec-19-06 08:45 AM |
#131 |
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I know the rescuers can say it's too dangerous and not |
FlaGranny |
Dec-19-06 12:56 PM |
#159 |
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Whodda thunk... |
Everybody |
Dec-19-06 07:07 AM |
#110 |
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It's not personal responsibility. It is about a society helping the people. |
xultar |
Dec-19-06 07:51 AM |
#112 |
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I'm a flaming liberal, but I'd still buy medevac insurance to pay the bills if something happened... |
gulfcoastliberal |
Dec-19-06 07:10 AM |
#111 |
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Medevac insurance is different than search and rescue. |
xultar |
Dec-19-06 08:19 AM |
#116 |
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I don't have a dog in this fight. But I'm not a big fan of "you're-not-a-real-liberal" threads. |
Skinner |
Dec-19-06 07:54 AM |
#114 |
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I'm just asking. That's all. Putting up a mirror. I never thought that search and rescue |
xultar |
Dec-19-06 08:16 AM |
#115 |
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Why are you picking on New Orleans? |
Lurking_Argyle |
Dec-19-06 08:54 AM |
#139 |
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EXACTLY! Them too. |
xultar |
Dec-19-06 09:06 AM |
#141 |
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Who says I don't like your posts? |
Skinner |
Dec-19-06 09:31 AM |
#148 |
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Perhaps The Same As Those That Think. . . |
ProfessorGAC |
Dec-19-06 08:24 AM |
#120 |
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Are you kidding. I've never been camping in my life. I've never been to camp. |
xultar |
Dec-19-06 08:43 AM |
#130 |
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I Think We're Agreeing |
ProfessorGAC |
Dec-19-06 08:53 AM |
#137 |
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Oh I agree with you. It was a silly litmus test. I knew that when I posted it. |
xultar |
Dec-19-06 09:21 AM |
#144 |
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Consider It Accounted! |
ProfessorGAC |
Dec-19-06 09:25 AM |
#145 |
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I'm a flaming liberal, too. But the costs of risk-taking ought to be borne by the risk-takers. |
WinkyDink |
Dec-19-06 08:48 AM |
#132 |
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How about insurance? |
JNelson6563 |
Dec-19-06 08:55 AM |
#140 |
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Search and rescue first, then figure out the payments if necessary |
Norquist Nemesis |
Dec-19-06 09:19 AM |
#143 |
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Save those taxpayers dollars and spend them on something useful-Iraq. |
Swede |
Dec-19-06 09:29 AM |
#147 |
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Let's face it, America has caught the mean and selfish virus |
AchtungToddler |
Dec-19-06 09:51 AM |
#151 |
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And it appears to be chronic. n/t |
bling bling |
Dec-19-06 11:39 AM |
#156 |
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What about being Responsible Humans for their actions? |
TriMetFan |
Dec-19-06 10:45 AM |
#152 |
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They don't. |
lildreamer316 |
Dec-20-06 02:44 AM |
#160 |
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well basically I have a problem being told I'm heartless |
sui generis |
Dec-20-06 09:12 AM |
#161 |
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I'd suggest the actual Oregon law is a nice balance on responsibility. |
mondo joe |
Dec-20-06 09:16 AM |
#162 |