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Reply #216: That's irrelevant ... [View All]

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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-24-06 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #7
216. That's irrelevant ...
His being a mathematician may (or may not) mean the math has a higher possibility of being correct, but it says little to nothing of the statistical validity of the conclusion being offered. A+B may equal C, but if the actual equation should have been D+E=X, then the conclusion offered is not valid. Or to put it as Skinner put it, if the assumptions aren't valid, then neither are the conclusions.

I'm a little late to this party, but I am quite glad to have found that it took place. I have no personal issue with TIA or those who followed and have followed his work. I will offer, however, that when it was being presented in the month's leading up to the 2004 election, I was troubled by the methodology being used. I was further troubled by the fact that the methodology occasionally changed in subtle ways. That did not suggest to me dishonesty, per se, rather the possibility that TIA had become so captivated by the numbers themselves that he had not thought to ask himself whether the assumptions on which they were based meant anything.

Not being a statistician myself, but having done many studies using statistical breakdowns of voter behavior for historical research, something just didn't strike me as quite right about it all, so I forwarded several of the presentations to a friend who himself has a PhD in mathematics, is an occasional historian, taught for years, has written advanced mathematics textbooks, is very liberal in his politics, and currently works as an editor of a mathematics journal. I thought he might be able to explain what I was seeing in such a way so as either to remove my doubts or confirm them, but the answer he gave me was not at all what I expected.

I still have the e-mail, which was somewhat lengthy, but ended with this final conclusion.

"I am not qualified to judge."

"Why?" I asked him. He then explained to me the difference between doing math and doing statistics, using terms that meant more to PhDs than they do to me, but good enough terms I gathered the gist. The math in statistics is relatively easy to compute. The equations themselves are fairly well static and vetted. The numbers used in those equations, however, are the key to the validity of the conclusion, and the job of a statistician is in finding the right numbers to use. He did opine, tentatively, that a severe problem existed in TIA's method of combining and averaging and then comparing polls, which was a part of the methodology that initially had caused me pause as well. In the case under discussion here, the problem is glaring.

My friend then forwarded the presentation to a colleague whose life is statistical analysis. His conclusion? I'm paraphrasing here, but it boiled down to something similar to what Skinner said regarding this presentation, "The underlying assumptions are false. This is a case of a conclusion being sought and the methods and assumptions fixed to surround what is sought. This is the kind of thing that makes people distrust statistical analysis." And all this took place well before the election.

Since then I have paid little attention to any of this, except to offer my own little bit here, which I'm sure will draw the ire of many. The point for me is simply this. The worthy goal of exposing election fraud is not aided by bad statistical analysis and in fact works exactly in the opposite direction.

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  -TRUTHISALL: 1 in 76 BILLION Odds of 5.1% Discrepancy in Dem House Vote vs. Generic Poll mom cat  Nov-21-06 12:31 PM   #0 
  - Sorry, I got lost in the figures.  Cleita   Nov-21-06 12:38 PM   #1 
  - There is one chance in 76 billion that it was not rigged.  mom cat   Nov-21-06 01:37 PM   #8 
     - Thanks mom cat.  Cleita   Nov-21-06 02:09 PM   #18 
     - DATA TYPOS FIXED HERE ... (from TIA)  mom cat   Nov-21-06 03:08 PM   #28 
     - Please note another eror in the text:  mom cat   Nov-21-06 04:31 PM   #45 
     - Be warned: she's very wrong indeed.  Donald Ian Rankin   Nov-23-06 07:59 AM   #184 
     - Yikes!!!  Roland99   Nov-21-06 06:58 PM   #56 
     - NO! NO! No, that's completely and utterly wrong, twice over!  Donald Ian Rankin   Nov-23-06 07:55 AM   #183 
     - Bush obviously prayed for a miracle! n/t  bananarepublican   Nov-25-06 03:36 AM   #220 
  - Hey, how is TIA doing?  iconoclastic cat   Nov-21-06 12:44 PM   #2 
  - Oh, Dear  ribofunk   Nov-21-06 12:47 PM   #3 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Nov-21-06 03:13 PM   #30 
     - T he generic poll is assumed to be wrong  creeksneakers2   Nov-21-06 09:28 PM   #77 
     - TIA: Generic polls ask "would you vote for the Dem or Rep in your district"?  mom cat   Nov-22-06 07:52 AM   #127 
     - Ha! Ha, I say!  smalll   Nov-21-06 09:49 PM   #82 
     - Could you pls provide a citation or reference for your statement that  snot   Nov-21-06 10:35 PM   #84 
     - Take a look at the following link -  smalll   Nov-22-06 12:42 PM   #154 
     - TIA HAS THE LAST LAUGH  mom cat   Nov-22-06 08:02 AM   #129 
     - that's called "cherry-picking"  foo_bar   Nov-22-06 08:55 AM   #143 
        - TIA: Reply to foo-bar  mom cat   Nov-22-06 04:08 PM   #161 
           - so he admits he's cherry-picking  foo_bar   Nov-22-06 07:42 PM   #175 
           - thanks for the shout-out, guy  OnTheOtherHand   Nov-23-06 07:19 AM   #177 
     - TIA: 2004 pre-election poll detail  mom cat   Nov-22-06 08:04 AM   #130 
     - I see his surrogates...  yibbehobba   Nov-22-06 05:46 AM   #112 
        - I assume that was just a direct quotation  OnTheOtherHand   Nov-22-06 06:02 AM   #119 
  - It's obvious some people have never taken Statistics  LeftCoast   Nov-21-06 12:49 PM   #4 
  - No many of us haven't.  Cleita   Nov-21-06 12:55 PM   #6 
  - TIA has three graduate degrees in mathematics. nt  bleever   Nov-21-06 12:58 PM   #7 
  - So he claims. This is the Internet.  Zynx   Nov-21-06 01:49 PM   #13 
  - I keep hearing that  LeftCoast   Nov-21-06 01:49 PM   #14 
  - And he uses Excel for everything...  survivor999   Nov-21-06 03:16 PM   #31 
  - oh dear. Next time will you be 1000?  uppityperson   Nov-22-06 01:47 AM   #95 
  - "I'm not a statistician" -TIA  foo_bar   Nov-21-06 04:54 PM   #47 
  - TIA's resume as to studies is decent - and I believe him to be an honest guy.  papau   Nov-21-06 09:02 PM   #70 
     - grepping around with his "areas of expertise" brings up the course list for Clemson?  nick303   Nov-21-06 09:15 PM   #74 
        - It's a standard course list for a math major - no big deal IMO n/t  papau   Nov-21-06 10:18 PM   #83 
  - I'm A Billionaire  DemocratSinceBirth   Nov-22-06 04:45 AM   #106 
  - TIA is brilliant and I would trust his work over the NYT or  goclark   Nov-22-06 09:32 AM   #147 
  - They're losers, and they know it's all going to come out in the wash.  KCabotDullesMarxIII   Nov-22-06 12:37 PM   #153 
     - yeah, all the skeptics will be sorry when the TIA revolution comes!  foo_bar   Nov-23-06 02:13 PM   #193 
     - Well, GV, I made two, what might be called, primary posts,  KCabotDullesMarxIII   Nov-23-06 03:59 PM   #197 
     - nice flame bait  OnTheOtherHand   Nov-23-06 04:11 PM   #199 
        - You may be able to learn from that. "Vulgarisation", as the French put it,  KCabotDullesMarxIII   Nov-23-06 04:14 PM   #200 
           - shall we be candid?  OnTheOtherHand   Nov-23-06 04:27 PM   #201 
              - Well, I certainly wouldn't expect to learn anything from you, GV.  KCabotDullesMarxIII   Nov-24-06 02:14 PM   #204 
                 - do you actually read our posts?  OnTheOtherHand   Nov-24-06 02:41 PM   #205 
     - Absolutely They Won't  stepnw1f   Nov-25-06 02:05 PM   #226 
  - That's irrelevant ...  RoyGBiv   Nov-24-06 08:36 PM   #216 
  - What about this analysis by the Election Defense Alliance?  ramblin_dave   Nov-21-06 01:47 PM   #11 
  - Exactly. The analysis of fraud is coming in from several reliable sources.  mom cat   Nov-21-06 02:14 PM   #20 
  - I think we all expected fraud  malaise   Nov-21-06 08:46 PM   #69 
  - this was debunked on the ER forum, but the dream lives on  foo_bar   Nov-21-06 04:59 PM   #48 
     - Two things for which I'll loan you enough rope to hang  truedelphi   Nov-22-06 12:15 AM   #88 
     - it's "fluoride" (and "fluoridation", "fluoridated")  foo_bar   Nov-22-06 01:38 AM   #94 
        - Fluoride or flouride - It was also 11:15Pm when I posted  truedelphi   Nov-22-06 11:48 AM   #152 
     - "Like Creationism, only people outside of their field can even  KCabotDullesMarxIII   Nov-22-06 01:02 PM   #155 
        - "you people"? minus Skinner I presume?  foo_bar   Nov-22-06 07:27 PM   #174 
           - Cry baby. You can dish it out to believers, but you can't take it, when  KCabotDullesMarxIII   Nov-23-06 11:59 AM   #190 
              - comparing bad science to bad science is offensive?  foo_bar   Nov-23-06 01:40 PM   #192 
              - Funny. You didn't sound at all open to any argument for Creationism.  KCabotDullesMarxIII   Nov-23-06 03:13 PM   #195 
                 - so the comparison is insulting to Creationism?  foo_bar   Nov-24-06 03:54 PM   #208 
                    - ""But like most terms of abuse, 'reductionism' has no fixed meaning."  KCabotDullesMarxIII   Nov-24-06 04:34 PM   #210 
                       - "That's where you seem to lacking in perception."  foo_bar   Nov-24-06 04:46 PM   #211 
                          - More quotes? Tee, hee. Jim Lehrer's you latest guru, is he? I must say  KCabotDullesMarxIII   Nov-24-06 06:46 PM   #213 
                             - do secular fundamentalists have gurus?  foo_bar   Nov-25-06 11:19 PM   #235 
              - yadda yadda yadda  OnTheOtherHand   Nov-23-06 03:11 PM   #194 
  - care to elaborate?  nashville_brook   Nov-21-06 02:47 PM   #26 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Nov-21-06 03:38 PM   #38 
     - Just curious...have you taken statistics?  LeftCoast   Nov-21-06 04:14 PM   #41 
        - Deleted message  Name removed   Nov-21-06 04:17 PM   #42 
           - I'll take that as a 'No'  LeftCoast   Nov-21-06 04:23 PM   #44 
              - Deleted message  Name removed   Nov-21-06 05:12 PM   #49 
                 - If you'll re-read my initial post you may notice that my only point was  LeftCoast   Nov-21-06 05:18 PM   #50 
                    - Deleted message  Name removed   Nov-21-06 06:12 PM   #52 
                    - It's not my job to teach you statistics  LeftCoast   Nov-21-06 06:23 PM   #53 
                    - Deleted message  Name removed   Nov-21-06 07:24 PM   #57 
                    - And I'm still waiting for ONE of you to tell me you took a stat course  LeftCoast   Nov-21-06 07:25 PM   #58 
                       - Deleted message  Name removed   Nov-21-06 08:36 PM   #67 
                       - And still you avoid the subject...  LeftCoast   Nov-21-06 09:22 PM   #75 
                          - Deleted message  Name removed   Nov-21-06 10:47 PM   #85 
                             - Bring it on, you say? Consider it brought.  Skinner   Nov-22-06 07:59 AM   #128 
                                - Thanks for stepping in Skinner. n/t  seasonedblue   Nov-22-06 08:13 AM   #131 
                                - Why?  Beetwasher   Nov-22-06 08:29 AM   #135 
                                   - OK.  Skinner   Nov-22-06 08:34 AM   #138 
                                      - Ok  Beetwasher   Nov-22-06 08:38 AM   #139 
                                      - Better watch it, Skinner.  yibbehobba   Nov-22-06 05:41 PM   #171 
                       - Okay, I passed a couple college statistics courses  0rganism   Nov-22-06 02:06 AM   #97 
                          - Read Mine Below  ProfessorGAC   Nov-22-06 08:52 AM   #142 
                    - Deleted message  Name removed   Nov-21-06 08:34 PM   #66 
                    - Who's Chester?  DemocratSinceBirth   Nov-22-06 04:49 AM   #107 
                    - I took statistics in college.  stevietheman   Nov-21-06 08:13 PM   #62 
                       - .  Hav   Nov-21-06 09:45 PM   #81 
                          - Deleted message  Name removed   Nov-21-06 10:55 PM   #86 
                          - the whole OP is a mistake  OnTheOtherHand   Nov-22-06 05:41 AM   #109 
                          - Then Provide Some  Beetwasher   Nov-22-06 08:31 AM   #136 
                             - I don't know who you are  OnTheOtherHand   Nov-22-06 06:19 PM   #173 
                          - Here's Two Of Them, Beet  ProfessorGAC   Nov-22-06 08:33 AM   #137 
                             - THANK YOU!  Beetwasher   Nov-22-06 08:43 AM   #140 
                             - I've Had These Discussions Before With TIA  ProfessorGAC   Nov-22-06 08:48 AM   #141 
                             - TIA Replies to ProfessorGAC and Skinner  mom cat   Nov-22-06 01:53 PM   #156 
                                - In other words, he's full ot it.  rinsd   Nov-22-06 02:03 PM   #157 
                                - yawn  OnTheOtherHand   Nov-23-06 07:24 AM   #178 
                                - TIA should do his homework, any homework  foo_bar   Nov-23-06 10:57 AM   #189 
                          - it's a variation on a theme  foo_bar   Nov-22-06 01:01 AM   #90 
                             - .  Hav   Nov-22-06 07:05 AM   #125 
                             - Brilliant post ...  RoyGBiv   Nov-24-06 09:23 PM   #219 
  - polls do have a plus and minus factor--it is not an exact science.  WI_DEM   Nov-21-06 12:51 PM   #5 
  - All of that has been taken into consideration.  mom cat   Nov-21-06 01:39 PM   #9 
  - If it had been we wouldn't keep having stupid threads like this.  LeftCoast   Nov-21-06 03:18 PM   # 
     - Is that why you troll these threads? Because of unaccounted MOEs?  0rganism   Nov-22-06 02:12 AM   #98 
  - It's funny, however, that the plus/minus factor  davekriss   Nov-21-06 01:41 PM   #10 
     - no, that's not it  OnTheOtherHand   Nov-21-06 08:11 PM   #61 
        - That was my point  davekriss   Nov-22-06 02:32 AM   #103 
           - no, your premise is incorrect  OnTheOtherHand   Nov-22-06 05:36 AM   #108 
              - Always happy when you show up OTOH...  seasonedblue   Nov-22-06 08:21 AM   #132 
              - I view the response...  davekriss   Nov-22-06 10:36 AM   #149 
              - (blush) have a great one too! n/t  OnTheOtherHand   Nov-22-06 06:17 PM   #172 
              - You still make my case  davekriss   Nov-22-06 10:27 AM   #148 
                 - your points about BIAS are right on!  nashville_brook   Nov-22-06 11:46 AM   #151 
                 - you have a lot to learn  OnTheOtherHand   Nov-23-06 07:40 AM   #182 
                 - well, if your point is  OnTheOtherHand   Nov-23-06 08:04 AM   #185 
                    - Turkey calls  davekriss   Nov-23-06 03:29 PM   #196 
                       - not really  OnTheOtherHand   Nov-23-06 04:09 PM   #198 
                          - OK, I read your paper  davekriss   Nov-26-06 12:11 AM   #236 
                             - thanks for the qq.  OnTheOtherHand   Nov-26-06 07:27 AM   #238 
                                - mal-pResidency discount  davekriss   Nov-27-06 10:41 PM   #239 
                                   - you're asking the right questions  OnTheOtherHand   Nov-28-06 05:46 AM   #240 
  - Oh come off it already. This posts just cause loss of credibility.  Zynx   Nov-21-06 01:49 PM   #12 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Nov-21-06 03:39 PM   #39 
  - He never had any credibility to begin with. n/t  yibbehobba   Nov-22-06 05:59 AM   #117 
  - That's why Chimp didn't fire Rummy before the election.  Last Stand   Nov-21-06 01:55 PM   #15 
  - Ah, so the fact that the election wasn't stolen PROVES it would have been.  LeftCoast   Nov-21-06 01:59 PM   #16 
     - what's your point? We're now talking numbers here.  Last Stand   Nov-21-06 02:11 PM   #19 
     - Thank you for that clarification.  mom cat   Nov-21-06 02:16 PM   #21 
     - That is not what the poster said.  mom cat   Nov-21-06 03:18 PM   #33 
  - Recommended.  understandinglife   Nov-21-06 02:00 PM   #17 
  - #5 here. This just keeps geting better.!!!!!!!!!!!! n/t  autorank   Nov-21-06 02:23 PM   #22 
  - Glad to see you. I thought you had gone on vacation.  mom cat   Nov-21-06 02:27 PM   #24 
  - The problem isn't mathematical or statisticaL  robcon   Nov-21-06 02:27 PM   #23 
  - The exit polls are known to have a Dem bias.  survivor999   Nov-21-06 03:09 PM   #29 
  - Actually, exit polls are quite reliable. The theory of the "Dem Bias"  mom cat   Nov-21-06 03:22 PM   #34 
  - Link?  survivor999   Nov-21-06 03:29 PM   #37 
  - riiiiiiiiight  OnTheOtherHand   Nov-21-06 05:46 PM   #51 
  - Known to have a Dem bias by whom?  crazylikafox   Nov-21-06 03:23 PM   #35 
     - I heard in on NPR.  survivor999   Nov-21-06 03:28 PM   #36 
        - this roundup might help  OnTheOtherHand   Nov-22-06 06:09 AM   #120 
  - From TIA: THESE ARE 116 PRE-ELECTION GENERIC POLLS, NOT EXIT POLLS  mom cat   Nov-21-06 04:12 PM   #40 
  - Neither one is necessarily wrong.  Ms. Toad   Nov-21-06 07:42 PM   #59 
  - well, the issue here isn't wins in individual districts  OnTheOtherHand   Nov-21-06 08:26 PM   #65 
     - You're right - its not as bad as my initial quick look  Ms. Toad   Nov-21-06 09:12 PM   #72 
        - yeah, it's all pretty remarkable  OnTheOtherHand   Nov-22-06 05:44 AM   #110 
  - Ha! Ha! I say -  smalll   Nov-21-06 09:38 PM   #80 
  - The importance of your post, the point you make here, cannot be  KCabotDullesMarxIII   Nov-24-06 04:03 PM   #209 
     - what is this, self-parody?  OnTheOtherHand   Nov-25-06 07:24 AM   #223 
        - Just respond to smalll's post. How come the sudden interest  KCabotDullesMarxIII   Nov-25-06 02:22 PM   #227 
           - on MY part?  OnTheOtherHand   Nov-25-06 05:29 PM   #229 
  - Individual house race polls showed results very similar to what happened.  Zynx   Nov-22-06 02:32 AM   #102 
  - You don't really know how well the polls generalize...  Sancho   Nov-21-06 08:43 PM   #68 
  - Indeed. They are overwhelmingly concentrated in urban areas and  Zynx   Nov-22-06 02:31 AM   #101 
     - I actually disagree with the first part  OnTheOtherHand   Nov-22-06 05:56 AM   #116 
        - I don't know about that. I did see a couple states that had some strange  Zynx   Nov-22-06 03:15 PM   #159 
           - sorry, took me a while to find this again...  OnTheOtherHand   Nov-23-06 09:01 AM   #188 
  - K&R  sfexpat2000   Nov-21-06 02:34 PM   #25 
  - Just as we figured, though we didn't use statistics...  TheGoldenRule   Nov-21-06 03:00 PM   #27 
  - Bingo! They misunderestimated their opposition!  mom cat   Nov-21-06 03:17 PM   #32 
  - another great moment in TIA "history"  foo_bar   Nov-21-06 04:19 PM   #43 
  - You should know about shrill.  mom cat   Nov-21-06 06:28 PM   #54 
  - "I know what you are, but what am I?"  foo_bar   Nov-22-06 01:02 AM   #92 
  - Yes...  DemocratSinceBirth   Nov-21-06 08:17 PM   #63 
  - Sam Wang, assistant professor of molecular biology ?  LeftCoast   Nov-21-06 09:32 PM   #79 
  - actually the PhDs in statistics aren't always a bargain either  OnTheOtherHand   Nov-22-06 05:47 AM   #114 
     - I Posted Wang's Results Because He Had It "Right" And "Wrong"  DemocratSinceBirth   Nov-22-06 06:11 AM   #121 
        - yup, and even his wrong was pretty right  OnTheOtherHand   Nov-22-06 06:26 AM   #122 
           - Dr. Wang is an honest scientist  slackmaster   Nov-23-06 07:34 AM   #180 
              - yes, this reminds me of one of TIA's greatest hits  OnTheOtherHand   Nov-23-06 08:17 AM   #186 
  - Wang subsequently admitted he was wrong  foo_bar   Nov-22-06 01:13 AM   #93 
  - Yeah. Same with the work of the insurance company actuaries. Absolutely  KCabotDullesMarxIII   Nov-24-06 03:35 PM   #206 
  - Definite K&R . It does just keep getting more interesting.  livvy   Nov-21-06 04:33 PM   #46 
  - Just a thought maybe the rigging was  kster   Nov-21-06 09:14 PM   #73 
  - Well then, odds are votes were stolen, again. nm  texpatriot2004   Nov-21-06 06:43 PM   #55 
  - k&r'd, hon...  bridgit   Nov-21-06 07:51 PM   #60 
  - K&R'd  chill_wind   Nov-21-06 08:25 PM   #64 
  - This happens in virtually every election.  Zynx   Nov-21-06 09:06 PM   #71 
  - TIA is like Fox News, only for the left....  ShaneGR   Nov-21-06 09:27 PM   #76 
  - Interesting comparison -- one single "crank" with a theory vs. a major network  0rganism   Nov-22-06 02:23 AM   #99 
  - My guess?  yibbehobba   Nov-22-06 06:02 AM   #118 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Nov-21-06 09:31 PM   #78 
  - I'm pretty much for mental health  truedelphi   Nov-22-06 12:19 AM   #89 
  - WOW!!!!  helderheid   Nov-21-06 11:29 PM   #87 
  - k&r  Swamp Rat   Nov-22-06 01:02 AM   #91 
  - Cook and Rothenberg predicted about a 30 seat pickup before the election  tritsofme   Nov-22-06 01:54 AM   #96 
  - Exactly.  Zynx   Nov-22-06 02:29 AM   #100 
  - I'm not impressed by the mumbo jumbo  Cocoa   Nov-22-06 04:25 AM   #104 
  - Here's The Final Round Of Polls  DemocratSinceBirth   Nov-22-06 04:42 AM   #105 
  - Interesting.  yibbehobba   Nov-22-06 05:45 AM   #111 
  - :-(  DemocratSinceBirth   Nov-22-06 05:46 AM   #113 
  - does getting other people to post it for him count?  OnTheOtherHand   Nov-22-06 05:50 AM   #115 
  - Oh My God you folks are obsessed!!!!!  Perky   Nov-22-06 06:54 AM   #123 
  - Who Are You To Dispute 76,000,000,000 To 1 Odds?  DemocratSinceBirth   Nov-22-06 06:55 AM   #124 
  - The "Massive army of knowing conspirators" theory is just one version  slackmaster   Nov-23-06 07:36 AM   #181 
  - This analysis is an embarrassment.  Skinner   Nov-22-06 07:47 AM   #126 
  - Absolutely  ProfessorGAC   Nov-22-06 08:26 AM   #134 
  - Skinner, this is one of the best posts I have ever seen on DU  slackmaster   Nov-22-06 04:13 PM   #162 
  - I just want to say thank you ...  RoyGBiv   Nov-24-06 08:41 PM   #217 
  - so here's my question  Bill McBlueState   Nov-25-06 01:55 PM   #225 
     - It is a topic worth discussing  Mr_Spock   Nov-26-06 12:34 AM   #237 
  - Enormous And Unsupportable Assumptions Abound  ProfessorGAC   Nov-22-06 08:23 AM   #133 
  - You're correct, Professor. Those "leaps in logic" include  Dick Diver   Nov-22-06 09:05 AM   #145 
     - You And Me, Dick. Let's Go To The Geek Club  ProfessorGAC   Nov-22-06 09:08 AM   #146 
        - Sorry, Professor. When I wrote my post  Dick Diver   Nov-22-06 10:47 AM   #150 
  - PELOSI GET RID OF THE MACMINES  natrat   Nov-22-06 08:57 AM   #144 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Nov-22-06 02:50 PM   #158 
  - We Can Settle This Easily And Fairly....  DemocratSinceBirth   Nov-22-06 03:24 PM   #160 
  - YES!  slackmaster   Nov-22-06 04:21 PM   #165 
  - Thank You  DemocratSinceBirth   Nov-23-06 05:30 AM   #176 
  - Or to the journals of AAPOR or the American Statistical Association, etc.  Gormy Cuss   Nov-22-06 04:41 PM   #169 
  - The lunacy continues with the help of water carriers  rinsd   Nov-22-06 04:18 PM   #163 
  - My Suggestion Is Eminently Reasonable...  DemocratSinceBirth   Nov-22-06 04:20 PM   #164 
  - Yes, it was  rinsd   Nov-22-06 04:26 PM   #167 
  - 'tis a consummation devoutly to be wish'd n/t  OnTheOtherHand   Nov-23-06 08:20 AM   #187 
  - You know what?  yibbehobba   Nov-22-06 05:39 PM   #170 
  - Gore should still be President  savemefromdumbya   Nov-22-06 04:23 PM   #166 
  - this is all bs  DaveinMD   Nov-22-06 04:35 PM   #168 
  - This reminds me of Dan Rather's "Memogate".  CJCRANE   Nov-23-06 07:26 AM   #179 
  - Precicely.  mom cat   Nov-24-06 10:41 AM   #202 
  - And they wonder why we pillory them!  KCabotDullesMarxIII   Nov-24-06 03:51 PM   #207 
     - well, I've always wondered  OnTheOtherHand   Nov-25-06 07:06 AM   #221 
        - I'm sure you have, GV.  KCabotDullesMarxIII   Nov-25-06 02:31 PM   #228 
           - I'm glad to see you say that  OnTheOtherHand   Nov-25-06 05:34 PM   #230 
  - Hmm...a 5.1% decline in Democratic vote share. Reminds me of my pre-election prediction  Kip Humphrey   Nov-23-06 12:24 PM   #191 
  - Whoever TIA is, he's pushing garbage.  bigriver   Nov-24-06 11:40 AM   #203 
     - He accurately showed that both the 2000 and 2004 elections  Cleita   Nov-24-06 04:59 PM   #212 
        - And I should trust your words why?  bigriver   Nov-24-06 07:26 PM   #214 
           - The reason his sycophants have to post his bilge is outlined here:  T Town Jake   Nov-24-06 07:39 PM   #215 
           - Curious.  Cleita   Nov-24-06 08:52 PM   #218 
              - no numbers or pie charts are necessary  OnTheOtherHand   Nov-25-06 07:11 AM   #222 
                 - Oh because some other mathematical geniuses have come  Cleita   Nov-25-06 11:52 AM   #224 
                    - no, you are seeing a lot of ridicule  OnTheOtherHand   Nov-25-06 05:43 PM   #231 
                    - This post is incorrect on so many levels.  Dick Diver   Nov-25-06 06:15 PM   #232 
                       - Thanks for bringing up my calculator again.  Cleita   Nov-25-06 06:23 PM   #233 
                          - Fine, then. Since you choose to participate in the conversation  Dick Diver   Nov-25-06 06:55 PM   #234 
 

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