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Reply #109: See my post #95 above [View All]

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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #56
109. See my post #95 above
Edited on Mon Nov-20-06 09:03 PM by Tom Rinaldo
I think what some people don't seem capable of recognizing is just how bad things truly can become if Iraq is left to chance to devolve on it's own with no interest in seeing if any positive leverage in the region can still be brought to bear to prevent a total worst case scenario.

There is no peace treaty in Korea, just an "armistice", guns still are pointed at each side across the border, but the massive killing stopped. Was that a "solution"? Depends on how you look at it I guess.

Iran and Syria have significant influence inside Iraq, currently they are working against any backing down of tensions inside Iraq. But don't assume that rational thinking will prevail and they will keep themselves out of a larger war, or that irrational thinking will confine itself to inside of Iraq's borders, once things begin slipping past the absolute point of no return.

It may get there no matter what anyone in this Administration or the next one does. Clark, unlike the Republican Chickenhawks, does not want to waste American lives for no good and important end, and unlike them he doesn't feel corporate profits and slightly cheaper oil is a worthwhile end worthy of sending our men and women off to death for. If there is no realistic chance left for preventing a true disaster by keeping some of America's military inside Iraq temporarily while we start our withdrawal, he's out of there.

I recorded Clark making this statement in New Hampshire last month:

"I don't think without a strategy to win we ought to be asking one more American soldier to die in Iraq, and that's the way I feel about it."

Be mindful that Clark thinks we can't win a military war inside Iraq, he thinks any solution there has to involve a negotiated regional political settlement, and "winning" anything at this point to him means not having Iraq spin out into full scale unrestrained civil war that spills over into a greater regional war involving further millions of people.

But the thing is Bush still controls the Presidency, and very few Democrats actually advocate for Congress cutting off all funds for troops in Iraq. Clark has been as effective as anyone in the Democratic Party at applying pressure on the Bush administration to get rid of Rumsfeld and open up talks with Iran and Syria.

Meanwhile Clark has, in my opinion, been the leading national Democrat warning against a drift into war with Iran, for at least two years now.
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  -Wesley Clark just lost me as a potential supporter leftofthedial  Nov-20-06 05:18 PM   #0 
  - Fasten seat belts  wtmusic   Nov-20-06 05:20 PM   #1 
  - gimme summadat popcorn, willya?  leftofthedial   Nov-20-06 05:45 PM   #23 
     - Well considering the title of your thread.....I would think that popcorn  FrenchieCat   Nov-20-06 06:43 PM   #51 
        - Bookmarking  Bucky   Nov-21-06 06:13 AM   #153 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Nov-20-06 05:20 PM   #2 
  - now there's an enlightened retort  leftofthedial   Nov-20-06 05:21 PM   #3 
  - yeah, what he said!  evilgenius602   Nov-20-06 06:15 PM   #41 
     - listen, pal  leftofthedial   Nov-20-06 07:07 PM   #61 
        - Well, hold it down damnit...  BushDespiser12   Nov-20-06 08:11 PM   #87 
  - Last time I got a response like that  wtmusic   Nov-20-06 05:26 PM   #8 
     - Could you find that thread? You have a star....just do an advance  FrenchieCat   Nov-20-06 06:47 PM   #54 
  - Hmmmm. He Just Gained My Support With Those Comments. He's Obviously Quite Smart.  OPERATIONMINDCRIME   Nov-20-06 05:21 PM   #4 
  - why?  leftofthedial   Nov-20-06 05:32 PM   #12 
     - "Why? He thinks we need to pursue a diplomatic solution in Iraq"  OPERATIONMINDCRIME   Nov-20-06 05:35 PM   #16 
     - what would constitute a "diplomatic solution"?  leftofthedial   Nov-20-06 05:49 PM   #25 
     - Or the Turks and the Armenians.  Hardrada   Nov-20-06 06:04 PM   #36 
     - I've said since before Baghdad fell  leftofthedial   Nov-20-06 06:07 PM   #39 
     - A diplomatic solution--Get the various parties to the table to agree  FrenchieCat   Nov-20-06 06:34 PM   #48 
        - and we get l'il george and Condi to engage in this process, how?  leftofthedial   Nov-20-06 07:09 PM   #62 
           - Oh I see......  FrenchieCat   Nov-20-06 07:46 PM   #73 
              - I never said he should shut up.  leftofthedial   Nov-20-06 09:18 PM   #114 
                 - So who would you support? Who said that we should be out of  FrenchieCat   Nov-20-06 09:56 PM   #120 
     - a "diplomatic solution" to what end...?  mike_c   Nov-20-06 05:55 PM   #31 
        - Lack Of A Civil War For Starters.  OPERATIONMINDCRIME   Nov-20-06 06:02 PM   #35 
        - do you honestly think that is possible...?  mike_c   Nov-20-06 06:16 PM   #43 
        - so we need to keep US soldiers on the ground in Iraq  leftofthedial   Nov-20-06 06:23 PM   #46 
           - There are many regions of the world where deep hatred simmers...  Tom Rinaldo   Nov-20-06 08:37 PM   #95 
        - we would want a "stable" Iraq to the extent that it can function on its own  FrenchieCat   Nov-20-06 06:39 PM   #50 
           - but I'll say again that Iraq was all that and more prior to March 2003....  mike_c   Nov-20-06 06:44 PM   #52 
              - A Diplomatic solution can be worked on with the removal of Occupation forces  FrenchieCat   Nov-20-06 06:56 PM   #57 
                 - do we have leverage now?  leftofthedial   Nov-20-06 07:06 PM   #59 
                 - You are misunderstanding the leverage I am speaking of...  FrenchieCat   Nov-20-06 07:41 PM   #71 
                 - whom do we negotiate this settlement with...?  mike_c   Nov-20-06 07:07 PM   #60 
     - There hasn't been a civil war in Iraq for the last 800 years  TorchesAndPitchforks   Nov-20-06 07:12 PM   #63 
     - Agree except for the notion that we have been seeking diplomatic--  eridani   Nov-20-06 11:43 PM   #129 
  - I'd argue, but there's really not much point  kiahzero   Nov-20-06 05:22 PM   #5 
  - yeah, cuz "strategy" is only good when it involves drafting people  The Count   Nov-20-06 05:22 PM   #6 
  - his response when Ed asked him about the draft  leftofthedial   Nov-20-06 05:29 PM   #10 
  - Consider that he did not enorse the vote to go to war in the first place.  Gregorian   Nov-20-06 05:25 PM   #7 
  - I don't hate everything he stands for or anything  leftofthedial   Nov-20-06 05:35 PM   #17 
  - I'm not sure about that.  jobycom   Nov-20-06 11:33 PM   #127 
  - Whatever.  MrSlayer   Nov-20-06 05:28 PM   #9 
  - you have no intellectual involvement in your politics then  leftofthedial   Nov-20-06 05:34 PM   #14 
     - No, I happen to think he knows a great deal more about the situation than you.  MrSlayer   Nov-20-06 06:20 PM   #44 
        - so you agree with what he said today?  leftofthedial   Nov-20-06 06:27 PM   #47 
           - Why do you think it is impossible to negotiate a peace using our troops  FrenchieCat   Nov-20-06 07:00 PM   #58 
           - But see, I very much doubt he said exactly that today  Tom Rinaldo   Nov-20-06 08:42 PM   #98 
           - Unfortunately, he's probably right.  MrSlayer   Nov-20-06 08:55 PM   #106 
  - ok, so we LOVED Charlie Rangel last week, but hate him now....  hlthe2b   Nov-20-06 05:30 PM   #11 
  - That's the problem with idiot mobs - they're fickle.  BlooInBloo   Nov-20-06 05:35 PM   #15 
  - "idiot mobs"?  leftofthedial   Nov-20-06 05:39 PM   #20 
     - Rangel-haters.  BlooInBloo   Nov-20-06 05:42 PM   #21 
        - I love Rangel - but he was batshit crazy with the draft. I like Clark too.  The Count   Nov-20-06 05:50 PM   #26 
           - Right where I said, as far as I'm concerned - naturally, opinions may differ.  BlooInBloo   Nov-20-06 05:53 PM   #28 
  - I don't hate Clark  leftofthedial   Nov-20-06 05:38 PM   #19 
  - It just seems that we have a hard time sticking with DEMS  hlthe2b   Nov-20-06 05:47 PM   #24 
     - this is no "major pile on"  leftofthedial   Nov-20-06 05:52 PM   #27 
        - I don't think you are piling on or in any way trying to be unfair  Tom Rinaldo   Nov-20-06 08:44 PM   #100 
  - Yawp. Hope you packed you seasick meds. That's the way  LittleClarkie   Nov-20-06 06:14 PM   #40 
  - I'm not sure the fickleness you percieve is accurate.  Bucky   Nov-21-06 06:21 AM   #155 
     - Actually, Bucky... having been around since 2/01, I can assure you  hlthe2b   Nov-21-06 06:43 AM   #157 
  - 'the big picture in the Middle East is absurdly flawed '  bowens43   Nov-20-06 05:34 PM   #13 
  - "Military solutions to political problems"?Clark?????????  The Count   Nov-20-06 05:36 PM   #18 
  - I found his notion of this "magical" political solution that would  leftofthedial   Nov-20-06 05:44 PM   #22 
     - Did he say "magical" or you derride all notion of diplomacy?  The Count   Nov-20-06 05:53 PM   #29 
     - "magical" is my word.  leftofthedial   Nov-20-06 06:05 PM   #37 
        - See #66. A transcript, rather than someone's impressions of what he said  The Count   Nov-20-06 07:35 PM   #68 
     - Again, we need to look at the transcript. I know Clark pretty well  Tom Rinaldo   Nov-20-06 08:47 PM   #104 
  - my feelings exactly....  mike_c   Nov-20-06 05:54 PM   #30 
  - That is a cardboard two dimension distorted caricature of a generic military man  Tom Rinaldo   Nov-20-06 08:51 PM   #105 
  - Dwight D. Eisenhower was actually a good President.  William769   Nov-20-06 06:00 PM   #33 
  - I disagree-- but I think we've discussed this at length before....  mike_c   Nov-20-06 06:21 PM   #45 
     - Before Eisenhower became president he participated in a coast-to-coast  PeaceProgProsp   Nov-20-06 06:45 PM   #53 
  - I can't agree with your assessment ...  Martin Eden   Nov-20-06 06:15 PM   #42 
     - then why doesn't Clark seem capable of recognizing...  mike_c   Nov-20-06 06:50 PM   #56 
        - a SOLUTION is merely the option you choose  Martin Eden   Nov-20-06 07:59 PM   #80 
        - See my post #95 above  Tom Rinaldo   Nov-20-06 09:02 PM   #109 
  - Right now Wesley Clark is on my short list for President.  William769   Nov-20-06 05:57 PM   #32 
  - The short man is at the top of my short list for Prez. too. nt  MookieWilson   Nov-20-06 06:00 PM   #34 
  - Wes can't lose something he never had.  TwilightZone   Nov-20-06 06:05 PM   #38 
  - Is there a transcript of this somewhere?  janx   Nov-20-06 06:38 PM   #49 
  - janx....  CarolNYC   Nov-20-06 07:33 PM   #66 
     - Thanks.  janx   Nov-20-06 07:39 PM   #69 
     - yep....  CarolNYC   Nov-20-06 07:59 PM   #81 
        - I worry about that too, but it's happening now.  janx   Nov-20-06 08:11 PM   #86 
        - You're right, it's a mess.  CarolNYC   Nov-20-06 08:18 PM   #89 
           - It's also a different region and culture, with a different history.  janx   Nov-20-06 08:32 PM   #94 
              - No doubt he is fully aware of that...  CarolNYC   Nov-20-06 08:40 PM   #97 
                 - I'm not comparing Clark to Condi Rice.  janx   Nov-20-06 08:45 PM   #101 
                    - Cool....  CarolNYC   Nov-20-06 08:47 PM   #103 
                       - Yes. Clark is a general.  janx   Nov-20-06 08:57 PM   #108 
        - it's already happening  leftofthedial   Nov-20-06 09:20 PM   #116 
     - "over time"  leftofthedial   Nov-20-06 07:48 PM   #74 
     - Iran...  CarolNYC   Nov-20-06 08:06 PM   #83 
     - Also, from WesPac  LittleClarkie   Nov-20-06 08:21 PM   #92 
        - How many more will die in the meantime?  janx   Nov-20-06 08:37 PM   #96 
           - Hey, I'm not necessarily on Clark's side, name not withstanding  LittleClarkie   Nov-20-06 08:43 PM   #99 
              - My questions were rhetorical.  janx   Nov-20-06 08:47 PM   #102 
  - 84 % opposed the war? YOU ARE ON ACID!  mdmc   Nov-20-06 06:47 PM   #55 
  - that was the result of a poll taken on Monday  leftofthedial   Nov-20-06 07:35 PM   #67 
     - Link please. nt  skipos   Nov-20-06 07:53 PM   #77 
     - oh...i did misread ...  mdmc   Nov-20-06 07:57 PM   #79 
        - re: the acid remark  leftofthedial   Nov-20-06 08:08 PM   #84 
           - i think jfk could use some  mdmc   Nov-20-06 10:58 PM   #123 
  - I can understand his reasoning  GloriaSmith   Nov-20-06 07:24 PM   #64 
  - Nobody knows. n/t  janx   Nov-20-06 07:43 PM   #72 
  - Carlyle Group thinks "winning" means sucking the last possible dime out of Iraq  leftofthedial   Nov-20-06 07:55 PM   #78 
  - Agreed. Talk of "winning" the immoral and illegal war  arewenotdemo   Nov-21-06 02:08 AM   #146 
  - The Iraqi people  Jcrowley   Nov-20-06 07:31 PM   #65 
  - that's the bottom line  leftofthedial   Nov-20-06 07:51 PM   #76 
  - I didn't catch Wes with Ed Schultz, but I agree with his previous comments on Iraq.  Tatiana   Nov-20-06 07:40 PM   #70 
  - we "own" what? what do you mean "fix"?  leftofthedial   Nov-20-06 07:50 PM   #75 
     - It's a metaphor (obviously) meaning we are responsible for the situation in Iraq.  Tatiana   Nov-20-06 08:21 PM   #91 
        - the large majority of Iraqis want us to leave  leftofthedial   Nov-20-06 09:07 PM   #111 
           - I agree international support will be needed.  Tatiana   Nov-20-06 09:18 PM   #113 
           - the international community would not be doing it for us  leftofthedial   Nov-20-06 09:46 PM   #118 
           - Yes they do, but many of them say "Soon" or "Very Soon"  Tom Rinaldo   Nov-20-06 09:20 PM   #115 
  - Is there any way you can change the title of your thread?  brentspeak   Nov-20-06 08:03 PM   #82 
  - If it matters, I didn't take it that way.  janx   Nov-20-06 08:15 PM   #88 
  - And a swift kick  JNelson6563   Nov-20-06 08:10 PM   #85 
  - Ouch! That kinda hurt...  upi402   Nov-20-06 09:42 PM   #117 
  - I don't find myself in complete agreement..  sendero   Nov-20-06 08:20 PM   #90 
  - Cat yack on that idea. What is wrong with these people! It is NEVER going  lonestarnot   Nov-20-06 08:22 PM   #93 
  - I understand where you are coming from, but  David Zephyr   Nov-20-06 08:57 PM   #107 
  - Great post. I'm with you 100%  Tatiana   Nov-20-06 09:06 PM   #110 
  - I no longer like Clark  oneinok   Nov-20-06 09:11 PM   #112 
     - Yeah....really, where did you spend one no one time with him at?  FrenchieCat   Nov-20-06 09:49 PM   #119 
     - Well, if you say so.  troubleinwinter   Nov-20-06 10:09 PM   #121 
  - Thank you for your rational OP & posts on this thread.  TheGoldenRule   Nov-20-06 10:46 PM   #122 
  - I linked the broacast in another post prior to this one.....  FrenchieCat   Nov-20-06 11:23 PM   #125 
  - I'll ignore your ridiculous statement about Clark threads. But tell us,  wiley   Nov-20-06 11:59 PM   #132 
  - Bah. I've seen people say the same in Kerry threads and Dean threads too  LittleClarkie   Nov-21-06 12:05 AM   #136 
  - Here's is the broadcast......  FrenchieCat   Nov-20-06 11:17 PM   #124 
  - Thanks. Unbelievable the rancor someone's "impressions" can elicit  The Count   Nov-20-06 11:28 PM   #126 
  - I heard that interview. And I must disagree.  Canuckistanian   Nov-20-06 11:42 PM   #128 
  - It may be that Clark's approaching it from a point of view of coming up with a  FrenchieCat   Nov-20-06 11:48 PM   #130 
  - That's called being a diplomat  seasonedblue   Nov-21-06 12:01 AM   #134 
  - True. Old Generals sometimes make the best diplomats  Canuckistanian   Nov-21-06 12:17 AM   #142 
  - Yep, there's way too many people who don't want an honest answer...  CarolNYC   Nov-21-06 06:32 AM   #156 
  - My friend in  upi402   Nov-20-06 11:50 PM   #131 
  - I heard that the Republicans are the most scared of him  Canuckistanian   Nov-21-06 12:08 AM   #137 
     - Yeah, nothing but net  upi402   Nov-21-06 12:13 AM   #140 
        - You were a delegate for Clarke?  Canuckistanian   Nov-21-06 12:26 AM   #144 
           - Hard to tell  upi402   Nov-21-06 12:33 AM   #145 
  - he was definitely NOT offering quick solutions  leftofthedial   Nov-21-06 12:03 AM   #135 
     - Permanent occupation is not so bad if the situation changes  Canuckistanian   Nov-21-06 12:12 AM   #139 
  - Now you can read Clark's plan as published in his op-Ed  FrenchieCat   Nov-21-06 12:00 AM   #133 
  - The man doesn't even register in the polls  ruggerson   Nov-21-06 12:12 AM   #138 
  - Did you see the 2003 poll round this time?  FrenchieCat   Nov-21-06 12:16 AM   #141 
  - Wrong and wrong again.  Clarkie1   Nov-21-06 12:19 AM   #143 
  - That's my view on the ground too  JNelson6563   Nov-21-06 05:24 AM   #149 
  - Better Clark than another Republican administration...  puebloknot   Nov-21-06 04:52 AM   #147 
  - No, he doesn't want to send Rice and Gates to Iraq.......  FrenchieCat   Nov-21-06 05:41 AM   #151 
     - Well, I realized last night, 30 seconds after hitting "post,"...  puebloknot   Nov-21-06 07:21 PM   #158 
  - He use to be a republican....  B Calm   Nov-21-06 05:23 AM   #148 
  - No he didn't used to be a Republican, he was an Independent General  FrenchieCat   Nov-21-06 05:35 AM   #150 
  - Yawn... what a tired old meme.  Clark2008   Nov-21-06 06:09 AM   #152 
  - "It was a flawed, fatally flawed idea,"  Clark2008   Nov-21-06 06:16 AM   #154 

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