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Reply #94: Irreconcilable differences [View All]

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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Nov-19-06 12:55 AM
Response to Original message
94. Irreconcilable differences
Edited on Sun Nov-19-06 01:02 AM by pat_k
Searching for "middle ground" can be productive in many contexts, but in this case, the differences between the "pro-impeachment" and the "anti-impeachment" people are irreconcilable.

This assertion is based on the following assumptions and definitions.

Definitions
  • Pro-impeachment

    People who are calling on Members of Congress to
    1. take concrete action to formally and publicly accuse Bush and Cheney of their crimes against the Constitution;
    2. declare their intent to impeach both Bush and Cheney
      (e.g., by introducing articles and calling on the House to take them up);
    3. do whatever they can to see that Bush and Cheney are removed from office via resignation or impeachment.

    People who believe that the Democratic Party's failure to take up the fight for impeachment is symptomatic of a deeply ingrained pattern of self-defeating behavior that must be challenged. (We have seen the enemy, and it is us.)

    People who believe that Impeachment is a moral imperative; who reject "priorities" that call on the nation to ignore torture because it might "distract" from raising the minimum wage.

  • Anti-impeachment (one or more of the following)

    People who defend the Democratic leadership's self-imposed "impeachment is off limits" edict.

    People who believe impeachment will make it impossible to "get things done" and that "getting things done" is a higher priority than rescuing the Constitution or taking the massive power of the American presidency out of the hands of war criminals.

    People who believe that that immediately and formally accusing Bush and Cheney is "jumping the gun" because Congress "must investigate first."

    People who believe that keeping impeachment "off the table" while the various committees pursue various open-ended investigation will eventually get the nation to impeachment "safely."

    People who would undoubtedly become truly "pro-impeachment" if the Democratic leadership took impeachment "out of the closet" by accusing Bush and Cheney of their crimes and declaring their intent to impeach.

Assumptions
  • Assumption 1 -- When the Constitution is under attack, Congress is sworn to defend it. The question before members in the current crisis is this: "Are Bush and Cheney an intolerable threat to the Constitution?"

  • Assumption 2-- Numerous charges against Bush and Cheney are well known to the public. Elected bodies, good government organizations, and countless individual citizens have examined the evidence and judged Bush and Cheney to be an intolerable threat to our constitutional democracy.

  • Assumption 3 -- When charges that officials are abusing their power to subvert the Constitution are brought to their attention, Members of Congress have a duty to judge the charges -- to either dismiss the charges as baseless or take defensive action to remove the threat. They bear responsibility for damage done each day that they unnecessarily put off their duty to judge.

    The limbo of "I don't know" is not an escape. Vague claims to "need more information" are no better than the limbo of "I don't know." If they believe they need something more to make a judgment, they must actively seek it. If they are unable to get what they need, they must render judgment on the information at hand.

  • Assumption 4 -- Members of Congress are aware of the most common charges against Bush and Cheney, the evidence cited, and the conclusions.

  • Assumption 5 -- Everything necessary to unequivocally prove at least three of the charges is available in the public record. These charges are described in "Three criminal conspiracies committed in plain sight" below.

  • Assumption 6 -- Any one of the crimes described in "Three criminal conspiracies committed in plain sight" is all that is needed to conclude that Bush and Cheney are an intolerable threat to the Constitution.

  • Assumption 7 -- Calls for investigation say one thing: "We don't have enough information."

  • Assumption 8 -- When the Constitution is threatened, their Congressional oath calls for Congressional action. For example, formally calling on the House to take up impeachment by introducing Articles of Impeachment for consideration.

Key irreconcilable differences
  • Pro-impeachment people reject the rationalizations for inaction that are invoked by anti-impeachment people -- e.g., "the backlash beast will get us" or the self-defeating prophesy "can't win so don't fight." (For sample point-counterpoint see the exchange between longship and pat_k that that starts with this post).

  • Assertions that the "silence is complicity" and that the choice is "duty or complicity" (pro-impeachment) cannot be reconciled with the assertion that avoiding feared negative consequences can excuse dereliction of duty (anti-impeachment).

  • The assertion that we e know all we need to know (pro-impeachment) cannot be reconciled with the assertion that there must be investigations first (some anti-impeachment).

    {must investigation} = {don't have a case} = {nullify powerful case we have}

  • The pro-impeachment belief that Democratic leaders could tap into a mother lode of public outrage if they became champions of impeachment cannot be reconciled with the anti-impeachment defense of Speaker to be Pelosi, an "anti-champion" who is doing everything she can to suppress outrage and "sit on" anyone in the Democratic caucus who looks like they might be on the verge of becoming a champion. (For more on champions, see this post)


. . .Let me put it another way. Certainly the “pro-impeachment” DUers recognize that investigation must precede a vote on impeachment. So it seems to me that almost all of us (both "anti-impeachment" and "pro-impeachment") are advocating investigations. . .


Saying "we need to investigate" is effectively an assertion that "we don't have a case." To effectively make the case, we must be crystal clear that we know all we need to know. This is tough for folks on "our side." We are very big on knowledge and often fail to realize that we know all we need to know as we unnecessarily seek to know all there is to know.

Investigations to determine the damage done and to root out co-conspirators can follow impeachment (or can go forward in parallel), but calling for open ended investigations to "set the stage" for impeachment negates the powerful case we have. Such open-ended investigations are a surefire way to get mired in unnecessary detail and irrelevancies.

Impeachment hearings to review the strongest articles and make the case to the public may or may not be necessary. Even with the 100% anti-impeachment propaganda coming from the establishment -- both Dems and Repubs -- Newsweek found that 51% want impeachment to be a priority, and only 44% believe "it should not be done." If they get serious about impeachment, the accusations will be the number 1 topic of public debate. The 51% is almost guaranteed to shoot up to more than 60% overnight. (For more on this, see the discussion in Results on Impeachment.

. . .I would rather see impeachment "out there on the table and visible for all to see", but if that’s going to hurt Democrats (which I'm not convinced of) then I agree that it would be best to keep talk of impeachment "off the table" until we see what the investigations turn up. . . .


Your doubt about the validity of their fear of "backlash" is well-found. Like so many other urban myths, the existence of the "backlash beast" isn't supported by logic or evidence, nevertheless, "everybody knows" its lying in wait.

But, even if we could prove the existence of the mythical backlash beast, it wouldn't matter. Outcome expectations are irrelevant. When principle demands action, you act or betray principle. We take oaths and make commitments to do hard and frightening things in advance so that when the time comes, we Just Do It, win or lose, however scary or difficult "It" may be.

If we expected it to be a cake walk for Members of Congress to "support and defend" we wouldn't ask them to swear to do it.

What is so heartbreaking and infuriating is that addiction to risk avoidance and dereliction of duty appears to be rampant among the DC Dems. Over and over, their failure to act leads to consequences far more dire than the worst they feared would result if they had acted.

They seek their escape from duty in tactical analysis that focuses almost exclusively on the "certain" negative consequences of action.. For example, in the current crisis, "opinion makers" and party insiders alternate between assurances that the nation wants Democrats to work with Bush and his toadies in Congress and warnings that the public will blast them if they impeach. The moral and political benefits of impeachment (e.g., exploding the "weak Dem" image), the enormous risks of failing to impeach, and the recent polls (e.g., Newsweek's) that find a majority of Americans want impeachment to be a priority in the new Congress are conspicuously absent (i.e., willfully ignored).

. . .I consider impeachment to be essential to our country.


Absolutely, positively, essential!

I've summarized my "top three" in the following section, but there are so many crimes to choose from and there is so much outrage percolating out here, it doesn't really matter which charges they decide are the most powerful. Keeping it simple should be the guiding principle. The crimes that don't end up in the articles will always be part of public debate and criminal prosecution of those crimes must follow, but you don't need "everything" to get Bush and Cheney out of there. (People were happy to see Capone convicted on tax evasion. Knowledge of "uncharged" crimes colors judgment. While this is to be avoided at all costs in a criminal trial, this is a political process in which there no such prohibition.)

Three criminal conspiracies committed in plain sight

  1. Bush and Cheney did not simply "lie" the nation into war -- they terrorized us with threats of "Mushroom Clouds over our cities in 45 minutes."

    Whether or not the White House "knew" that the "16 words" were a fantasy, no amount of "stretching" can support the notion that Iraq had the capability to drop a nuclear bomb anywhere within the United States -- not in 45 minutes; not in a year; not in 5 years.

    When Bush and Cheney and their minions threatened the nation with "mushroom clouds over our cities in 45 minutes" they knew they were making the most colossal bomb threat in our history.


  2. Bush's criminal surveillance of Americans without warrants continues. The unconstitutional claim that they have a "get out of jail" free card (unitary authoritarian power) is laughable, and they know it. If they actually believed their own claims they would not currently be mounting a final, desperate push to "make it legal."


  3. When the Supreme Court ruled that the operations and procedures ordered by the White House and implemented at Gitmo violated Geneva, they found Bush, Cheney, and those who colluded in the violations to be War Criminals.

Until they declare their intent they are derelict in their duty

There are no half-measures that satisfy their oath.

The charges against Bush and Cheney are hanging out there. They are not going to magically "disappear." Democratic control of Congress can not defend against the Bush administration's continued abuse of power.

As described in Assumption 2 and 3 at the start of this post, members of Congress cannot escape their duty to pass judgment on the charges.

Every day that they do nothing they betray their oath and demonstrate contempt for the concerned citizens who are calling on them to act. The citizens who are taking up the fight for impeachment are a very active bunch who will not quietly accept the dismissive contempt of their elected officials for long.

Every day that they do nothing effectively exonerates Bush and Cheney. If exoneration is their intent, then they should do it honestly by telling the nation why the abuses that a majority of Americans can see are not abuses in their eyes.

Dereliction through in action is bad enough, but those who are mindlessly balking with claims that the impeachment of Bush and Cheney is "it's off the table" (no reason or justification, it's just off, period) are declaring their intent to betray their oath. (Throwing away the only weapon you have to defend against presidential abuse of power is "pre-emptive" surrender.)

The price of delay could be unimaginable

Time Is NOT on our side.

The price of delay could be unimaginable.(1) Any day we could see another terrorist attack; Bush could declare war on Iran or Syria or North Korea or Venezuela or even Haiti; or some completely unforeseen event could make it impossible to rescue our national soul for a long time to come.

_______________________________________________________

(1) Even when we move full steam ahead, we can be thwarted by events.

On September 10, 2001, there were many signs that sanity was returning. The number who believed Florida was stolen had passed 50%. Bush's approval was continuing the steady downward slide that started the day he was inaugurated. A coalition led by Democrats.com that included the National Lawyers Guild and Vincent Bugliosi was about to announce their "fall offensive" -- a campaign that that included the effort to see Scalia et al. impeached for Bush v. Gore.

Bush's claims to any semblance of legitimacy were crumbling fast.

Then the sun came up on 9/11/2001. In the weeks that followed, the countless people who were horrified by the stolen election and Bush's incredible abuses were silenced in a nation that had seemingly gone mad.

Sanity is once again returning, but we must recognize how fragile the moment is.
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  Thoughts on Impeachment Time for change  Nov-17-06 11:30 PM   #0 
   Good post!  stonecoldsober   Nov-17-06 11:45 PM   #1 
   Yes, that's a critical point - The Republican Congress ignored their  Time for change   Nov-18-06 08:05 AM   #9 
   Sword of Damocles  liberalmike27   Nov-19-06 09:59 AM   #112 
   Offenses already proven, and majority already wants impeachment . . .  pat_k   Nov-19-06 12:45 PM   #137 
   If we don't impeach...  nebenaube   Nov-18-06 12:02 AM   #2 
   One thing that made a big impression on me was Clinton's decis ion  Time for change   Nov-18-06 11:26 PM   #81 
      You've probably seen it, but " Hey, Democrats, Truth Matters!"  pat_k   Nov-19-06 01:07 PM   #138 
         I'm reading Parry's book, "Secrecy and Privilege"  Time for change   Nov-19-06 01:31 PM   #140 
         Good choice!  kenfrequed   Nov-19-06 04:12 PM   #152 
            Thanks back at you -- for post #95. . .  pat_k   Nov-19-06 04:51 PM   #156 
   You're right that there is little difference  Patsy Stone   Nov-18-06 12:03 AM   #3 
   Thank you Patsy -- Timing and semantics  Time for change   Nov-18-06 03:41 AM   #7 
   "Off the table" was not just craven and immoral, it was completely unnecessary  pat_k   Nov-19-06 01:29 PM   #139 
      I wasn't arguing for or against Nancy's actions.  Patsy Stone   Nov-19-06 06:32 PM   #158 
         We know all the necessary facts. We have known them for years. . .  pat_k   Nov-20-06 11:47 AM   #166 
            Are you aware that after the vote is taken in the House  Patsy Stone   Nov-20-06 06:08 PM   #169 
               One charge is enough. We have at least three for which we know . . .  pat_k   Nov-20-06 07:02 PM   #171 
   Practicality. Political psychology. I think those who push to  higher class   Nov-18-06 12:09 AM   #4 
   Nixon was not impeached - he resigned.  stonecoldsober   Nov-18-06 12:19 AM   #6 
   ...because he was about to be impeached AND convicted and  Mr_Spock   Nov-18-06 10:45 AM   #14 
      "Convicted" is the important part of the entire process and the reason Nixon resigned.  elocs   Nov-18-06 11:13 AM   #16 
      I'm not sure what your point is by saying that  Time for change   Nov-18-06 11:49 PM   #85 
      Failure to accuse = Exoneration = "Accessory After the Fact" War Criminal  pat_k   Nov-19-06 02:13 PM   #143 
      What do you base your assumption that the impeachment of Bush. . .  pat_k   Nov-19-06 02:05 PM   #142 
   I have a question  loyalsister   Nov-18-06 04:27 AM   #8 
   I believe the people who counted in working for the impeachment  higher class   Nov-18-06 11:06 AM   #15 
   If you really understand what was behind the impeachment of Nixon...  AntiFascist   Nov-18-06 08:42 PM   #69 
   Did you read and fully understand my question?  loyalsister   Nov-18-06 10:02 PM   #75 
      My opinion on that  Time for change   Nov-18-06 10:55 PM   #77 
      Defense of the Constitution by removing the threat was achieved. . .  pat_k   Nov-19-06 03:01 PM   #146 
   Actually, that is easily turned. . .  pat_k   Nov-19-06 02:27 PM   #144 
   Yes, we need to consider all of those things  Time for change   Nov-18-06 11:34 PM   #82 
   For crimes . .  pat_k   Nov-19-06 01:49 PM   #141 
      Your right about taking the time for the vote. But, there is only two  higher class   Nov-19-06 04:23 PM   #153 
         There is not set sequence of events. . .  pat_k   Nov-19-06 04:41 PM   #155 
   Couldn't agree with you more!  calimary   Nov-18-06 12:13 AM   #5 
   Powerful case already made. No investigation required.  pat_k   Nov-19-06 03:21 PM   #148 
   Agree  Annces   Nov-18-06 09:04 AM   #10 
   I agree that this is a fight for our lives  Time for change   Nov-18-06 03:07 PM   #48 
   why investigations should not be tied to impeachment  onenote   Nov-18-06 09:23 AM   #11 
   Thank you onenote -- I see your point and I tend to agree with it  Time for change   Nov-18-06 12:40 PM   #39 
   Who Said Not To Investigate? But Impeachment Detracts From That  KharmaTrain   Nov-18-06 09:32 AM   #12 
   I don't see why impeachment can't be the culmination of many of  Time for change   Nov-18-06 11:38 PM   #83 
   We have a clear and simple case. "Investigations" undermine that case. . .  pat_k   Nov-19-06 01:22 AM   #99 
   "Throwing them out" = "Rescue the Constitution"  pat_k   Nov-19-06 01:14 AM   #98 
      Very Much In Agreement About The Hague  KharmaTrain   Nov-19-06 04:04 AM   #104 
         Failure to "push for it" = exoneration  pat_k   Nov-19-06 10:31 AM   #113 
            I think you make some very good points here  Time for change   Nov-19-06 11:01 AM   #114 
            I just ordered Nichols book "The Genius of Impeachment: The Founders' Cure for Royalism"  pat_k   Nov-19-06 11:45 AM   #125 
               I'll have to get that book -- thank you  Time for change   Nov-19-06 11:47 AM   #127 
            Political Expdiency Trumps All...  KharmaTrain   Nov-19-06 11:13 AM   #116 
               Articles were voted out of committee -- Nixon resigned. Removal is the goal. .  pat_k   Nov-19-06 12:01 PM   #131 
               And, if you are interested. . .  pat_k   Nov-19-06 12:27 PM   #136 
   I'm still going to take the "investigate first" attitude  Mr_Spock   Nov-18-06 10:39 AM   #13 
   "Nobody is suggesting that we should look the other way and thus  Time for change   Nov-18-06 11:44 PM   #84 
   Bookmarked.  rucky   Nov-18-06 11:15 AM   #17 
   The confusion arises on the statement "impeachment is off the table".  mmonk   Nov-18-06 11:16 AM   #18 
   Kick for the Constitutional imperative of impeachment. - n/t  porphyrian   Nov-18-06 11:28 AM   #19 
   I reject the premise that the choices are either pro-impeachment or anti-impeachment.  elocs   Nov-18-06 11:29 AM   #20 
   There was no qualifier preceeding or subseeding  mmonk   Nov-18-06 11:32 AM   #21 
   I agree that impeachment doesn't need to be pursued "right out of the box"  Time for change   Nov-18-06 04:55 PM   #51 
   Well, Pelosi said impeachment is off the table. Conyers agrees.  elocs   Nov-18-06 06:36 PM   #58 
      Skinner did not say that impeachment is not a good idea  Time for change   Nov-18-06 07:05 PM   #61 
         I am against quick impeachment, many here are not  elocs   Nov-18-06 07:20 PM   #63 
            Ok, but  Time for change   Nov-19-06 12:11 AM   #90 
   I know you keep saying...  Independent_Liberal   Nov-18-06 08:35 PM   #68 
      I certainly agree with your main premise  Time for change   Nov-18-06 11:03 PM   #78 
   How do we work with the President to bring home troops once we've  mzmolly   Nov-18-06 11:54 AM   #22 
   This pResident has no intention of bringing the troops home  riderinthestorm   Nov-18-06 12:00 PM   #24 
   We HAVE to try. And, we have more leverage if we don't damage  mzmolly   Nov-18-06 12:13 PM   #28 
      He's already flatly stated he's not pulling them out while he's pRez. nt  riderinthestorm   Nov-18-06 12:20 PM   #31 
         And then he said he'll await the findings of Papa Bush's Iraq group.  mzmolly   Nov-18-06 12:22 PM   #33 
            Even Poppy's group will recommend staying in Iraq  riderinthestorm   Nov-18-06 12:29 PM   #35 
               You may be right.  mzmolly   Nov-18-06 12:35 PM   #37 
                  It was in the Wash Post a couple of days ago  riderinthestorm   Nov-18-06 12:45 PM   #40 
                     Interesting. I wonder if this group is more about political cover than  mzmolly   Nov-18-06 12:50 PM   #41 
                        Thanks you have a great weekend too!  riderinthestorm   Nov-18-06 12:56 PM   #43 
   When put that way, I believe that I would also go for position # 2  Time for change   Nov-18-06 01:01 PM   #44 
   Justice doesn't just "happen"  kenfrequed   Nov-19-06 01:03 AM   #95 
      I didn't assume that the gods would intervene.  mzmolly   Nov-19-06 01:06 AM   #96 
   I strongly recommend  H2O Man   Nov-18-06 11:56 AM   #23 
   Love that idea.  mzmolly   Nov-18-06 12:01 PM   #25 
   It has great potential  H2O Man   Nov-18-06 12:07 PM   #26 
      I agree.  mzmolly   Nov-18-06 12:11 PM   #27 
         Once formal investigations  H2O Man   Nov-18-06 12:14 PM   #29 
            Indeed.  mzmolly   Nov-18-06 12:18 PM   #30 
   I haven't read that book  Time for change   Nov-18-06 12:22 PM   #32 
   Even Bush and Cheney have the right to a "trial."  mzmolly   Nov-18-06 12:27 PM   #34 
   Yes, I agree with all that  Time for change   Nov-18-06 11:58 PM   #86 
   Sure.  H2O Man   Nov-18-06 01:35 PM   #45 
      Right, I agree with all of that  Time for change   Nov-18-06 02:08 PM   #47 
         As everyone who  H2O Man   Nov-18-06 06:04 PM   #55 
            "It would be impossible to have impeachment without investigations."  understandinglife   Nov-18-06 08:13 PM   #66 
               Respectfully disagree. . .  pat_k   Nov-19-06 03:45 PM   #151 
   Yup- Cheney's got to go first...  Fiendish Thingy   Nov-19-06 02:27 AM   #102 
   Since the Bush and Cheney crimes are so closely related, I don't see why  Time for change   Nov-19-06 11:07 AM   #115 
   Impeaching only Cheney is a defacto exoneration of Bush. . .  pat_k   Nov-19-06 03:33 PM   #150 
   How does Bushy's ability to pardon enter into this picture? If he is impeached  rhett o rick   Nov-18-06 12:34 PM   #36 
   Thank you -- I'm sorry I can't answer your question  Time for change   Nov-19-06 12:03 AM   #87 
      President's power to pardon is absolute -- while he's in office.  IMModerate   Nov-19-06 01:29 AM   #100 
   So the choice is either the politics of fear or... Law and Order.  followthemoney   Nov-18-06 12:38 PM   #38 
   "DEMOCRATS have cautiously led us in the worship of Republican values."  mzmolly   Nov-18-06 12:55 PM   #42 
   The party's rejection of censure supported by Feingold. The blind support for  followthemoney   Nov-18-06 03:58 PM   #49 
      How many Democrats = "The Party?"  mzmolly   Nov-18-06 04:49 PM   #50 
         Have a nice dream!  followthemoney   Nov-18-06 05:52 PM   #54 
            Have a nice nightmare!  mzmolly   Nov-18-06 09:12 PM   #74 
   Excellent points...  AntiFascist   Nov-18-06 09:08 PM   #73 
   I agree with most of what you say here, except  Time for change   Nov-19-06 12:08 AM   #88 
   YES! The discussions have mostly been about political expediency.  bobbolink   Nov-18-06 01:51 PM   #46 
   Yes, we must first and foremost concern ourselves with the health of our country  Time for change   Nov-18-06 05:41 PM   #52 
   Now, it's important to take the "conversation" beyond DU!  bobbolink   Nov-18-06 05:50 PM   #53 
      It's very good to hear that you're spreading his work around  Time for change   Nov-18-06 06:31 PM   #57 
         I figured a long time ago that we have to be our own media.  bobbolink   Nov-18-06 06:43 PM   #59 
            Thanks -- I agree that the corporate media is a great part of the problem  Time for change   Nov-18-06 07:08 PM   #62 
   Well said, bobbolink. I heartily concur  katinmn   Nov-18-06 08:44 PM   #70 
   I hate to say it, but the Democrats have to play the media game.  high density   Nov-18-06 06:11 PM   #56 
   Well, that's probably one of the most lucid explanations I've heard on this subject  Time for change   Nov-18-06 07:21 PM   #64 
   Impeachment. Our civic responsibility and our constitutional right.  WiseButAngrySara   Nov-18-06 06:50 PM   #60 
   "The issue is simply whether or not a president and vice president have the right to ignore our ...  understandinglife   Nov-18-06 08:06 PM   #65 
   Thank you ul -- Yes, they hold international and domestic law in equal contempt  Time for change   Nov-18-06 10:46 PM   #76 
   I feel that the bottom line is the War in Iraq...  AntiFascist   Nov-18-06 08:31 PM   #67 
   Yes, I believe that is correct -- which would be an added benefit of  Time for change   Nov-18-06 11:10 PM   #80 
   Thank you. Great discussion thread.  katinmn   Nov-18-06 08:53 PM   #71 
   Thank you katinmn - Yes, Bush certainly is a torturing war criminal  Time for change   Nov-19-06 11:15 AM   #117 
   I'm starting to think censure would hurt Bush more than impeachment.  EOO   Nov-18-06 08:56 PM   #72 
   But impeachment and conviction is a much more powerful rebuke than censure  Time for change   Nov-19-06 11:23 AM   #119 
   Re: Thoughts on Impeachment  infinity818425   Nov-18-06 11:06 PM   #79 
   Very important insights  puebloknot   Nov-19-06 12:19 AM   #91 
   Lots of great points puebloknot  Time for change   Nov-19-06 12:05 PM   #132 
   Just saw this Monday 1:45  puebloknot   Nov-20-06 03:47 AM   #164 
   Investigations must proceed or America will have lost its 'balance' as  IWantAChange   Nov-19-06 09:24 PM   #161 
   infinity818425 ....  katinmn   Nov-19-06 09:46 AM   #109 
   Welcome to DU infinity  Time for change   Nov-19-06 11:25 AM   #120 
   Let's remember that Libby's trial starts in January...  rich4468   Nov-19-06 12:10 AM   #89 
   ...impeachment will quietly shuffle into oblivion...  puebloknot   Nov-19-06 12:33 AM   #93 
   I agree...  rich4468   Nov-19-06 08:34 AM   #107 
   didn't some other asshole take the rap for Libby-Cheney?  katinmn   Nov-19-06 09:48 AM   #110 
   Consider Conyers' report, "The Constitution in Crisis"  Time for change   Nov-19-06 11:33 AM   #121 
      Thanks...  rich4468   Nov-19-06 07:33 PM   #160 
   proceed with Caution  illinoisprogressive   Nov-19-06 12:28 AM   #92 
   "It is almost certain that so much malfesence will be uncovered  Time for change   Nov-19-06 11:36 AM   #122 
   Defining ourselves as the party of "We the People" and . .  pat_k   Nov-19-06 04:32 PM   #154 
   Irreconcilable differences  pat_k   Nov-19-06 12:55 AM   #94 
   pat_k :  katinmn   Nov-19-06 09:53 AM   #111 
   IMPEACH BUSH!  Swamp Rat   Nov-19-06 01:12 AM   #97 
   Ditto!  Pachamama   Nov-19-06 02:09 AM   #101 
   Simple and to the point!  rosesaylavee   Nov-19-06 12:17 PM   #135 
   Something the pro-impeachment crowd never address:  CarbonDate   Nov-19-06 02:34 AM   #103 
   "Pro-impeachment" people do address this -- I just did in this post. . .  pat_k   Nov-19-06 11:20 AM   #118 
   Interesting and important points - I agree with the need for patience  Time for change   Nov-19-06 11:41 AM   #124 
   Bingo! We have a winner!  brindis_desala   Nov-19-06 03:31 PM   #149 
   Impeachment ought to be about the Constitution, but it isn't  eridani   Nov-19-06 04:24 AM   #105 
   The public is already there. . .  pat_k   Nov-19-06 11:39 AM   #123 
   The general public was INFORMED about Nixon  eridani   Nov-19-06 11:30 PM   #162 
      Why? Draft the articles, make the case. We have ALL the necessary facts.  pat_k   Nov-20-06 11:56 AM   #167 
         By "we" you mean the activists who use those internets pipes  eridani   Nov-20-06 11:47 PM   #178 
            The Majority that the Newsweek poll found  pat_k   Nov-21-06 03:31 PM   #179 
   But our Congressional representatives were elected by us  Time for change   Nov-19-06 11:46 AM   #126 
   Impeachment = YES, Here's the plan  Maryland Liberal   Nov-19-06 07:38 AM   #106 
   Welcome to DU Maryland liberal  Time for change   Nov-19-06 11:50 AM   #128 
   Well said....  Aviation Pro   Nov-19-06 09:03 AM   #108 
   Thanks -- sounds like a very worth while book  Time for change   Nov-19-06 11:53 AM   #129 
   I think, if Bush goes ahead with  StephenB48   Nov-19-06 12:00 PM   #130 
   God forbid that should happen  Time for change   Nov-19-06 12:12 PM   #133 
      What have they got to lose?  westerebus   Nov-19-06 03:04 PM   #147 
   Why Does Will Pitt and Skinner Hate America?  stepnw1f   Nov-19-06 12:12 PM   #134 
   great thread!  Old and In the Way   Nov-19-06 02:35 PM   #145 
   Very good point -- We're still saddled with the most irresponsible  Time for change   Nov-19-06 07:18 PM   #159 
   No duh, the people know its "necessary," it just takes 67 votes to remove them.  Thomas_Paine1776   Nov-19-06 04:54 PM   #157 
   Opposition to Impeachment  vkobaya   Nov-20-06 03:38 AM   #163 
   There is also another possibility  Time for change   Nov-20-06 08:17 AM   #165 
   Time for Change, if you're interested...  Independent_Liberal   Nov-20-06 03:13 PM   #168 
   AMEN!  westerebus   Nov-20-06 06:29 PM   #170 
   Oh yes, it will happen. It has to happen.  Independent_Liberal   Nov-20-06 08:30 PM   #172 
   BTW...  Independent_Liberal   Nov-20-06 08:48 PM   #173 
   Your post has restored my faith...  AntiFascist   Nov-20-06 09:11 PM   #174 
   Great scenario  Time for change   Nov-20-06 10:19 PM   #175 
   This Is What Dems Should Be Pursuing...  USA_1   Nov-20-06 10:22 PM   #176 
   impeachment is called for and necessary.  NotGivingUp   Nov-20-06 10:45 PM   #177 
 

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