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Reply #200: dude. such bullshit over fashion... [View All]

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NuttyFluffers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-13-06 04:38 AM
Response to Original message
200. dude. such bullshit over fashion...
Edited on Fri Oct-13-06 04:39 AM by NuttyFluffers
it's britain for christ's sake (or buddha or mahavira, i really don't give a shit right now)! let 'em wear whatever they want as long as it doesn't put them in the way of direct harm or cripple them from doing their job. please, i know people who corset train for fun and do some of their training while at their desk job. who really cares? all this external implication crap is just that, an external opinion about what *you* think is going on through *their* heads. just give it up and let them express fashion however they want.

ps: having lived in saudi arabia, the grand poohbah of oppression, i can pretty much tell you the women, particularly those w/ beaucoup money in the family, are not utter chattel (it ain't rosy either, though). they are often the family's pursestrings and what some see as a man doing all the shopping as controlling can also be seen as a woman telling him to do all the shopping as she says (or there'll be no allowance for him). we see a man depriving her of her active power, she sees herself using her active power to force a man to do her work. if you feel bad about a man being dragged to the mall in your hometown... funny how perspectives work. and you have *no* idea how expensive the clothes are, from what's underneath to the veil itself -- brand name everything.

but saudi, which has its own big batch of problems, is not britain. in britain the veil means *nothing but* fashion. oh sure, there's crazy cultural leaders who want to enslave everyone to their thinking, but all groups get their wacked out cult leaders and control freaks. nations like britain have laws to smack them and their dipshit followers down when they go loopy. britain, and feminism, isn't in some danger because someone wants to wear lots of extra fabric on their head, just as it wasn't in some danger when others wanted to shave the sides of their head, color the middle locks of hair bright primary colors and spike it up with a whole can of aqua net. grow up people, given the location it's just a discussion on fashion.

pps: Satanic Verses wasn't a very good book. granted there shouldn't have been a fatwah on him, but it put him on the map and sold far more because of it. might've been better if it was just ignored, i think.
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  -Salmon Rushdie: Veils take power from women pnwmom  Oct-10-06 09:12 PM   #0 
  - I'm Conflicted Too  iamjoy   Oct-10-06 09:21 PM   #1 
  - Some women needn't hide ANYTHING  Karenina   Oct-12-06 01:03 PM   #171 
  - I'll agree with Straw  DaveinMD   Oct-10-06 09:22 PM   #2 
  - Yet his issue is not with sexism, but with communication  mcscajun   Oct-10-06 09:33 PM   #5 
  - And I think a lot of people underestimate how important that is.  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 12:00 AM   #7 
     - you are correct, we wouldn't tolerate it for a minute  pitohui   Oct-11-06 12:24 AM   #15 
     - Right, that's the assumption -- that women are weak and  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 02:55 AM   #31 
        - Any country where women are forced to look through a rectangle of mesh...  Nabeshin   Oct-11-06 05:16 AM   #45 
        - Is Great Britain forcing that these days?  AlienGirl   Oct-11-06 05:33 AM   #51 
        - Are you aware that many Muslim women in Great Britain live  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 12:16 PM   #119 
        - I have seen women in my own US city wearing a chador that  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 12:14 PM   #117 
        - The veil Straw is talking about is just that, a face veil that leaves  mcscajun   Oct-11-06 06:33 AM   #52 
        - Wrong. It's an issue for women FROM those countries who end up in  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 12:18 PM   #120 
           - There should be. (no text)  quantessd   Oct-11-06 01:14 PM   #135 
           - When they get in an accident there's a law. It's called reckless driving  mcscajun   Oct-11-06 05:04 PM   #149 
              - The first time I saw a woman in a chador was in my local Sears,  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 08:32 PM   #155 
                 - I haven't seen any chadors or burqas, as I've said before, but I HAVE  mcscajun   Oct-11-06 09:24 PM   #159 
                 - I have seen this kind of thing when it's 95 and humid.  barb162   Oct-12-06 12:21 PM   #164 
                    - Yeah, really. How come men never have to be modest?  pnwmom   Oct-12-06 12:35 PM   #170 
                       - I don't know  barb162   Oct-12-06 06:02 PM   #179 
        - You'd identify the other driver  Dorian Gray   Oct-11-06 12:35 PM   #126 
           - But if you couldn't see the face, how would you know you were looking  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 01:32 PM   #137 
              - Their license PLATES...  Dorian Gray   Oct-11-06 03:00 PM   #143 
                 - The police could only determine who the car owner SAID was driving.  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 03:17 PM   #144 
     - How about None?  mcscajun   Oct-11-06 06:34 AM   #53 
     - I agree completely.  tenshi816   Oct-13-06 01:47 AM   #196 
  - And you don't think it's sexist for him to tell them how to dress?  Clark2008   Oct-11-06 11:08 AM   #76 
     - the veil is sexist by nature  DaveinMD   Oct-11-06 11:14 AM   #79 
     - Absolutely, the veil is sexist  seasonedblue   Oct-11-06 11:17 AM   #83 
     - Well, you're not Muslim are you?  Clark2008   Oct-11-06 11:18 AM   #84 
        - I'm not so sure you can say for certain that it's always a "choice"  riderinthestorm   Oct-11-06 11:23 AM   #91 
        - But neither should they force unveiling.  Clark2008   Oct-11-06 11:41 AM   #101 
        - I didn't get that the Brits are trying to force any kind of unveiling  riderinthestorm   Oct-11-06 11:45 AM   #106 
        - Right. Many of these communities are very isolated. The girls and  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 12:22 PM   #122 
        - How do you know that they chose it?  seasonedblue   Oct-11-06 11:27 AM   #93 
           - How many Muslim women do you know?  Clark2008   Oct-11-06 11:41 AM   #100 
              - The fact that you know many women who  seasonedblue   Oct-11-06 12:06 PM   #113 
              - By definition the ones YOU know are the ones who are allowed to  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 12:27 PM   #123 
              - I know many as well ...  etherealtruth   Oct-12-06 04:22 PM   #176 
     - Kind of hard for me to be sexist since I'm female.  Clark2008   Oct-11-06 11:19 AM   #86 
        - but they are being dictated to wear the veil  DaveinMD   Oct-11-06 12:43 PM   #131 
        - That's right though some women willfully do it to please the men  barb162   Oct-12-06 12:25 PM   #166 
        - I don't think people  fujiyama   Oct-13-06 01:09 AM   #191 
     - I don't think he was "telling them" anything  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 12:21 PM   #121 
  - Any governmental dictate regarding what women may wear is, by  BleedingHeartPatriot   Oct-10-06 09:28 PM   #3 
  - Or religious dictate. The Quran isn't very clear about exactly what is  riderinthestorm   Oct-10-06 09:36 PM   #6 
  - Nuns never wore chadors, as far as I know. Just hair covering veils.  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 02:58 AM   #32 
  - It "feels" extreme, but one thinks with one's brain and not one's guts  AlienGirl   Oct-11-06 03:05 AM   #36 
     - How do you know the women are wearing the veil as a choice?  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 03:17 AM   #41 
        - In Great Britain, who's forcing them?  AlienGirl   Oct-11-06 05:18 AM   #46 
           - No one.  Clark2008   Oct-11-06 11:11 AM   #77 
           - Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the law in France  riderinthestorm   Oct-11-06 11:20 AM   #87 
           - How do you know that? And what about the ones who, even  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 12:13 PM   #116 
           - Anyone  fujiyama   Oct-13-06 01:16 AM   #193 
           - Oh, I get it. In Western countries, women are never abused.  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 12:10 PM   #114 
  - Heh, I've said the same thing.  Nabeshin   Oct-11-06 05:19 AM   #47 
  - Or they just need to wait for the passage of time  Book Lover   Oct-11-06 11:53 AM   #109 
     - Wow, that's harsh  lapislzi   Oct-11-06 12:34 PM   #125 
        - Yes, it is harsh  Book Lover   Oct-11-06 01:15 PM   #136 
           - My experience is not the same  Taoschick   Oct-12-06 02:53 PM   #174 
  - I think the burqua extremism was obsorbed from other non-Islamic cultures  Ignacio Upton   Oct-13-06 01:05 AM   #190 
  - What about a law that bans people from wearing  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 12:02 AM   #8 
  - Exactly, what BHP said...and I agree with Rushdie (n/t)  Triana   Oct-11-06 12:05 AM   #9 
  - Such as Scold's bridles, scarlet letters, cuckolder's horns ...?  Taxloss   Oct-11-06 11:15 AM   #80 
     - um, ok, "the state liberates people by forbidding certain things".  BleedingHeartPatriot   Oct-11-06 08:51 PM   #158 
        - The British are still remembered for abolishing suttee in India.  Taxloss   Oct-12-06 12:09 PM   #162 
  - The veil conveys that its wearer is not co-equal with men  Psephos   Oct-10-06 09:32 PM   #4 
  - I remember the first time I saw a woman in a full chador -- only  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 12:05 AM   #10 
  - yeah once you see it you really see what it's about, don't you?  pitohui   Oct-11-06 12:21 AM   #14 
     - It has no more intrinsic meaning than glasses vs. contacts  AlienGirl   Oct-11-06 01:15 AM   #18 
        - Full chadors are a way of making women invisible.  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 02:49 AM   #29 
           - "Against chadors? Then don't wear one!"  AlienGirl   Oct-11-06 02:59 AM   #33 
              - There is an offensive message to all women, unfortunately, whether  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 03:14 AM   #39 
  - I agree. But forcing them not to wear the veil also reduces their equality  Bucky   Oct-11-06 07:39 AM   #61 
  - Do you honestly think that was the tenor of Straw's comments?  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 12:32 PM   #124 
     - Good post  fujiyama   Oct-13-06 01:20 AM   #194 
  - true  donsu   Oct-11-06 10:55 AM   #72 
  - Peace?? After this message  Malikshah   Oct-11-06 11:22 AM   #90 
     - I'm glad to hear your opinions  Psephos   Oct-11-06 02:04 PM   #141 
        - The approach I used was very much akin to the approach used  Malikshah   Oct-11-06 04:38 PM   #146 
           - No, it wasn't  Psephos   Oct-11-06 07:45 PM   #152 
  - leave the choice up to the individual woman  mark414   Oct-11-06 12:05 AM   #11 
  - Exactly.  AlienGirl   Oct-11-06 01:23 AM   #20 
  - Suppose men took to wearing hoods in public,  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 03:00 AM   #34 
  - Why shouldn't I be comfortable with it?  AlienGirl   Oct-11-06 05:23 AM   #48 
  - the place in question is not the US...  mark414   Oct-11-06 10:24 AM   #68 
     - You don't think women wear full veils in the U.S.? They do in my city.  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 12:38 PM   #128 
  - What if the choice is actually being made by her husband or family,  Taxloss   Oct-11-06 11:20 AM   #88 
  - That's quite true  seasonedblue   Oct-11-06 11:31 AM   #95 
  - is forcing a women not to wear something  mark414   Oct-11-06 11:32 AM   #97 
     - Well, there's the dilemma.  Taxloss   Oct-11-06 11:39 AM   #99 
        - yes, it is an interesting and difficult discussion  mark414   Oct-11-06 11:43 AM   #103 
           - Just as only Nixon could go to China, only Straw could make that remark.  Taxloss   Oct-11-06 11:51 AM   #108 
           - He's asking for a dialogue about veiling  riderinthestorm   Oct-11-06 11:57 AM   #111 
              - i must have read it wrong then  mark414   Oct-11-06 12:13 PM   #115 
  - I agree, 100%  bicentennial_baby   Oct-11-06 01:40 PM   #139 
  - Pants take power away from women  UncleSepp   Oct-11-06 12:15 AM   #12 
  - Some think that pants give women power.  Bridget Burke   Oct-11-06 07:50 AM   #64 
  - It's all rather subjective and culture-based, isn't it?  UncleSepp   Oct-11-06 11:43 AM   #104 
  - Straw says in British culture the chardor is wrong  AngryAmish   Oct-11-06 08:12 AM   #67 
  - i don't see where it's a tough issue  pitohui   Oct-11-06 12:18 AM   #13 
  - Those poor Western women can't walk around with their breasts exposed!  Lilith Velkor   Oct-11-06 12:15 PM   #118 
  - "....just another cultural expression......"  omega minimo   Oct-11-06 12:39 AM   #16 
  - As much as makeup and bras.  AlienGirl   Oct-11-06 01:17 AM   #19 
  - You won't be murdered for going without makeup and bras  omega minimo   Oct-11-06 01:34 AM   #21 
     - No one should be murdered for going unveiled, either  AlienGirl   Oct-11-06 01:39 AM   #22 
     - but they are, and we're not  omega minimo   Oct-11-06 02:12 AM   #25 
        - In England? Yes. Both are matters of choice in England.  AlienGirl   Oct-11-06 02:14 AM   #26 
           - It may be her right, but it is a barrier to communication  muriel_volestrangler   Oct-11-06 03:28 AM   #42 
              - Multiculturalism vs. monoculturalism is a worthwhile debate  AlienGirl   Oct-11-06 05:29 AM   #49 
              - You may not consciously depend on facial cues in your communications  mcscajun   Oct-11-06 06:41 AM   #54 
              - good points. yes and there is a BIG facial clue  omega minimo   Oct-11-06 10:34 AM   #70 
              - Do you believe several separate cultures can coexist in one State?  AlienGirl   Oct-11-06 02:39 PM   #142 
                 - Completely separate, making no accomodation for the other?  mcscajun   Oct-11-06 05:05 PM   #150 
                 - Not in the U.S. IF one of the cultures demands on continuing  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 08:36 PM   #156 
              - You don't depend on facial cues? You don't repond to smiles and  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 12:41 PM   #130 
              - Several very different cultures CAN'T coexist in a Liberal Democracy.  Odin2005   Oct-12-06 09:14 PM   #184 
              - No - I wouldn't care if that was their culture.  Clark2008   Oct-11-06 11:22 AM   #89 
              - Which leads to misunderstanding and hard feelings  riderinthestorm   Oct-11-06 11:26 AM   #92 
              - Maybe so...  Clark2008   Oct-11-06 11:54 AM   #110 
                 - We do have limits on our rights (can't yell fire in a crowded theatre)  riderinthestorm   Oct-11-06 12:03 PM   #112 
              - But what if in your job you NEEDED to communicate well with  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 12:47 PM   #132 
              - good analogy. That IS the feeling you get when interacting with someone  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 12:39 PM   #129 
     - Not very likely to be murdered for it in Britain, either  UncleSepp   Oct-11-06 02:08 AM   #24 
        - You're free to limit your own thinking, but not mine  omega minimo   Oct-11-06 02:37 AM   #28 
           - Really? Damn, and I SO wanted to limit your thinking.  UncleSepp   Oct-11-06 02:50 AM   #30 
              - Condescend much?  omega minimo   Oct-11-06 10:25 AM   #69 
                 - As condescending as you are.  UncleSepp   Oct-11-06 11:31 AM   #96 
                    - Still out of your control  omega minimo   Oct-11-06 11:44 AM   #105 
  - true  donsu   Oct-11-06 10:56 AM   #73 
  - cultural expression? Fuck that.  lies and propaganda   Oct-11-06 12:45 AM   #17 
  - I am inclined to agree with this assessment  Skittles   Oct-11-06 02:07 AM   #23 
  - you go girl! any liberal who believes all cultural traditions are equal is  HardRocker05   Oct-11-06 11:42 AM   #102 
     - Nicely said  seasonedblue   Oct-11-06 04:51 PM   #147 
  - Here we go again with the Western Bull in the China Shop  JCMach1   Oct-11-06 02:17 AM   #27 
  - No, it's the China Doll in the western corral. n/t  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 03:11 AM   #38 
  - The male gaze. Hmm.  phylny   Oct-11-06 07:28 AM   #58 
  - Not an issue of control... Would you allow men to touch you physically  JCMach1   Oct-11-06 07:47 AM   #62 
     - We don't get it?  phylny   Oct-11-06 08:02 AM   #66 
     - Where is the "here" that you are talking about?  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 01:38 PM   #138 
     - Thank you.  quantessd   Oct-12-06 01:20 PM   #172 
     - Because the West is the source of all evil, don't you know...  Odin2005   Oct-12-06 09:21 PM   #185 
     - From your description, it sounds as if the veil allows women to behave  pnwmom   Oct-12-06 03:57 PM   #175 
  - This is happening in Britain, not in the Muslim world. n/t  Taxloss   Oct-11-06 11:18 AM   #85 
  - Is this about hijab or niqab? nt  Hatalles   Oct-11-06 03:01 AM   #35 
  - niqab  muriel_volestrangler   Oct-11-06 03:31 AM   #43 
  - Basic principle of individual choice  UncleSepp   Oct-11-06 03:06 AM   #37 
  - What do you think about laws that bar groups of people from  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 03:16 AM   #40 
  - You keep raising the spectre of the KKK  AlienGirl   Oct-11-06 05:31 AM   #50 
  - A veil isn't a mask.  Clark2008   Oct-11-06 11:12 AM   #78 
     - A face veil IS a mask. It covers the face and disguises identity.  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 12:52 PM   #134 
        - Not only that, but if you knew they were going to get beaten  barb162   Oct-12-06 06:17 PM   #180 
  - true, but the veil sprung from a culture where there was *no choice* and  HardRocker05   Oct-11-06 11:48 AM   #107 
     - So they should be coerced in a different way?  mondo joe   Oct-11-06 01:40 PM   #140 
  - Some cultures are better than others.  Nabeshin   Oct-11-06 05:14 AM   #44 
  - And like many others in this thread, you're conflating the veil with the  mcscajun   Oct-11-06 06:43 AM   #55 
  - Exactly, and its damn insensitive if not racist to ask someone to take  JCMach1   Oct-11-06 07:27 AM   #57 
     - Racist? RIIIIIIIIIIGHT...  Odin2005   Oct-12-06 09:24 PM   #186 
  - Back to cultural practices... there is nothing Koranic about  JCMach1   Oct-11-06 07:25 AM   #56 
     - Same with veils.  Nabeshin   Oct-11-06 07:34 AM   #60 
        - Exactly, the Koranic caveat is merely to cover the head  JCMach1   Oct-11-06 07:49 AM   #63 
           - Everything is the work of man  fujiyama   Oct-13-06 01:40 AM   #195 
  - So, would Jack Straw ask the UAE Economic, or Social Affairs Ministers  JCMach1   Oct-11-06 07:32 AM   #59 
  - Rushdie's telling women what to do.  Bridget Burke   Oct-11-06 07:52 AM   #65 
  - .  Clark2008   Oct-11-06 11:17 AM   #82 
  - They should be able  Marie26   Oct-11-06 10:38 AM   #71 
  - it always mystified me as to why catholic women had to cover their  donsu   Oct-11-06 11:03 AM   #74 
  - First off, that's not required of Catholic women anymore  Clark2008   Oct-11-06 11:16 AM   #81 
     - thanks, didn't know it was revised  donsu   Oct-11-06 11:28 AM   #94 
  - If it helps, I'm a feminist too and the ex-wife of a Muslim man  Clark2008   Oct-11-06 11:07 AM   #75 
  - Thank you!  UncleSepp   Oct-11-06 11:34 AM   #98 
  - I'm not conflicted at all on this.  Chomp   Oct-11-06 12:36 PM   #127 
  - Your last point rocks  aaronbees   Oct-13-06 03:47 AM   #198 
  - This isn't an issue to me.  Bornaginhooligan   Oct-11-06 12:51 PM   #133 
  - There's something FISHY about your headline...  The Witch   Oct-11-06 04:08 PM   #145 
  - hah, hah! I guess spell check thought I did a good job.  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 08:39 PM   #157 
  - Choice is the key word: If Muslim women choose to wear the veil,  entanglement   Oct-11-06 04:55 PM   #148 
  - "annoys Western feminists" is not the point.  omega minimo   Oct-11-06 05:18 PM   #151 
  - I am not conflicted  BoneDaddy   Oct-11-06 07:58 PM   #153 
  - Good post.  quantessd   Oct-12-06 01:27 PM   #173 
     - I know the feeling  BoneDaddy   Oct-12-06 04:24 PM   #177 
  - You don't have to be conflicted.  SmokingJacket   Oct-11-06 08:06 PM   #154 
  - I adore how some people negate a woman's choice...  bicentennial_baby   Oct-11-06 09:39 PM   #160 
  - And you know that none of the women or teens in Massachussetts  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 11:46 PM   #161 
     - In general you can't know if anyone is being forced to do anything  mondo joe   Oct-12-06 12:14 PM   #163 
        - So we shouldn't assume that women are wearing chadors out of choice.  pnwmom   Oct-12-06 12:32 PM   #168 
           - Obviously the legal system should protect people from being  mondo joe   Oct-12-06 12:35 PM   #169 
              - Well then,  quantessd   Oct-12-06 06:39 PM   #181 
                 - Can you tell anyone they can't pressure someone?  mondo joe   Oct-12-06 07:47 PM   #183 
  - Right on, Rushdie  barb162   Oct-12-06 12:24 PM   #165 
  - Wearing the veil has become a symbol of 'political defiance' as well  JCMach1   Oct-12-06 12:31 PM   #167 
  - I always thought Rushdie made a career out of ...  etherealtruth   Oct-12-06 04:38 PM   #178 
     - You obviously haven't read his stuff...  JCMach1   Oct-13-06 12:43 AM   #187 
  - No different from the bikini or Hooters attire  hsher   Oct-12-06 07:33 PM   #182 
  - It really depends on what you mean by veil  fujiyama   Oct-13-06 01:02 AM   #188 
  - So what about traditional Nun's outfits then? Would you permit that?  JCMach1   Oct-13-06 01:04 AM   #189 
     - Do traditional nuns  fujiyama   Oct-13-06 01:11 AM   #192 
        - Intransigence... As I posted in an earlier post in this thread  JCMach1   Oct-13-06 03:55 AM   #199 
  - Customs That Repress Women Are Cultural Differences That Must Be Honored  REP   Oct-13-06 01:49 AM   #197 
  - dude. such bullshit over fashion...  NuttyFluffers   Oct-13-06 04:38 AM   #200 

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