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Reply #140: So they should be coerced in a different way? [View All]

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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-11-06 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #107
140. So they should be coerced in a different way?
I actually find it MORE offensive for a government to tell a person what they can wear.

You really have no way to know who is wearing it for what reasons - and that said, it is wrong to substitute your decision for theirs.
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  -Salmon Rushdie: Veils take power from women pnwmom  Oct-10-06 09:12 PM   #0 
  - I'm Conflicted Too  iamjoy   Oct-10-06 09:21 PM   #1 
  - Some women needn't hide ANYTHING  Karenina   Oct-12-06 01:03 PM   #171 
  - I'll agree with Straw  DaveinMD   Oct-10-06 09:22 PM   #2 
  - Yet his issue is not with sexism, but with communication  mcscajun   Oct-10-06 09:33 PM   #5 
  - And I think a lot of people underestimate how important that is.  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 12:00 AM   #7 
     - you are correct, we wouldn't tolerate it for a minute  pitohui   Oct-11-06 12:24 AM   #15 
     - Right, that's the assumption -- that women are weak and  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 02:55 AM   #31 
        - Any country where women are forced to look through a rectangle of mesh...  Nabeshin   Oct-11-06 05:16 AM   #45 
        - Is Great Britain forcing that these days?  AlienGirl   Oct-11-06 05:33 AM   #51 
        - Are you aware that many Muslim women in Great Britain live  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 12:16 PM   #119 
        - I have seen women in my own US city wearing a chador that  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 12:14 PM   #117 
        - The veil Straw is talking about is just that, a face veil that leaves  mcscajun   Oct-11-06 06:33 AM   #52 
        - Wrong. It's an issue for women FROM those countries who end up in  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 12:18 PM   #120 
           - There should be. (no text)  quantessd   Oct-11-06 01:14 PM   #135 
           - When they get in an accident there's a law. It's called reckless driving  mcscajun   Oct-11-06 05:04 PM   #149 
              - The first time I saw a woman in a chador was in my local Sears,  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 08:32 PM   #155 
                 - I haven't seen any chadors or burqas, as I've said before, but I HAVE  mcscajun   Oct-11-06 09:24 PM   #159 
                 - I have seen this kind of thing when it's 95 and humid.  barb162   Oct-12-06 12:21 PM   #164 
                    - Yeah, really. How come men never have to be modest?  pnwmom   Oct-12-06 12:35 PM   #170 
                       - I don't know  barb162   Oct-12-06 06:02 PM   #179 
        - You'd identify the other driver  Dorian Gray   Oct-11-06 12:35 PM   #126 
           - But if you couldn't see the face, how would you know you were looking  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 01:32 PM   #137 
              - Their license PLATES...  Dorian Gray   Oct-11-06 03:00 PM   #143 
                 - The police could only determine who the car owner SAID was driving.  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 03:17 PM   #144 
     - How about None?  mcscajun   Oct-11-06 06:34 AM   #53 
     - I agree completely.  tenshi816   Oct-13-06 01:47 AM   #196 
  - And you don't think it's sexist for him to tell them how to dress?  Clark2008   Oct-11-06 11:08 AM   #76 
     - the veil is sexist by nature  DaveinMD   Oct-11-06 11:14 AM   #79 
     - Absolutely, the veil is sexist  seasonedblue   Oct-11-06 11:17 AM   #83 
     - Well, you're not Muslim are you?  Clark2008   Oct-11-06 11:18 AM   #84 
        - I'm not so sure you can say for certain that it's always a "choice"  riderinthestorm   Oct-11-06 11:23 AM   #91 
        - But neither should they force unveiling.  Clark2008   Oct-11-06 11:41 AM   #101 
        - I didn't get that the Brits are trying to force any kind of unveiling  riderinthestorm   Oct-11-06 11:45 AM   #106 
        - Right. Many of these communities are very isolated. The girls and  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 12:22 PM   #122 
        - How do you know that they chose it?  seasonedblue   Oct-11-06 11:27 AM   #93 
           - How many Muslim women do you know?  Clark2008   Oct-11-06 11:41 AM   #100 
              - The fact that you know many women who  seasonedblue   Oct-11-06 12:06 PM   #113 
              - By definition the ones YOU know are the ones who are allowed to  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 12:27 PM   #123 
              - I know many as well ...  etherealtruth   Oct-12-06 04:22 PM   #176 
     - Kind of hard for me to be sexist since I'm female.  Clark2008   Oct-11-06 11:19 AM   #86 
        - but they are being dictated to wear the veil  DaveinMD   Oct-11-06 12:43 PM   #131 
        - That's right though some women willfully do it to please the men  barb162   Oct-12-06 12:25 PM   #166 
        - I don't think people  fujiyama   Oct-13-06 01:09 AM   #191 
     - I don't think he was "telling them" anything  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 12:21 PM   #121 
  - Any governmental dictate regarding what women may wear is, by  BleedingHeartPatriot   Oct-10-06 09:28 PM   #3 
  - Or religious dictate. The Quran isn't very clear about exactly what is  riderinthestorm   Oct-10-06 09:36 PM   #6 
  - Nuns never wore chadors, as far as I know. Just hair covering veils.  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 02:58 AM   #32 
  - It "feels" extreme, but one thinks with one's brain and not one's guts  AlienGirl   Oct-11-06 03:05 AM   #36 
     - How do you know the women are wearing the veil as a choice?  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 03:17 AM   #41 
        - In Great Britain, who's forcing them?  AlienGirl   Oct-11-06 05:18 AM   #46 
           - No one.  Clark2008   Oct-11-06 11:11 AM   #77 
           - Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the law in France  riderinthestorm   Oct-11-06 11:20 AM   #87 
           - How do you know that? And what about the ones who, even  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 12:13 PM   #116 
           - Anyone  fujiyama   Oct-13-06 01:16 AM   #193 
           - Oh, I get it. In Western countries, women are never abused.  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 12:10 PM   #114 
  - Heh, I've said the same thing.  Nabeshin   Oct-11-06 05:19 AM   #47 
  - Or they just need to wait for the passage of time  Book Lover   Oct-11-06 11:53 AM   #109 
     - Wow, that's harsh  lapislzi   Oct-11-06 12:34 PM   #125 
        - Yes, it is harsh  Book Lover   Oct-11-06 01:15 PM   #136 
           - My experience is not the same  Taoschick   Oct-12-06 02:53 PM   #174 
  - I think the burqua extremism was obsorbed from other non-Islamic cultures  Ignacio Upton   Oct-13-06 01:05 AM   #190 
  - What about a law that bans people from wearing  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 12:02 AM   #8 
  - Exactly, what BHP said...and I agree with Rushdie (n/t)  Triana   Oct-11-06 12:05 AM   #9 
  - Such as Scold's bridles, scarlet letters, cuckolder's horns ...?  Taxloss   Oct-11-06 11:15 AM   #80 
     - um, ok, "the state liberates people by forbidding certain things".  BleedingHeartPatriot   Oct-11-06 08:51 PM   #158 
        - The British are still remembered for abolishing suttee in India.  Taxloss   Oct-12-06 12:09 PM   #162 
  - The veil conveys that its wearer is not co-equal with men  Psephos   Oct-10-06 09:32 PM   #4 
  - I remember the first time I saw a woman in a full chador -- only  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 12:05 AM   #10 
  - yeah once you see it you really see what it's about, don't you?  pitohui   Oct-11-06 12:21 AM   #14 
     - It has no more intrinsic meaning than glasses vs. contacts  AlienGirl   Oct-11-06 01:15 AM   #18 
        - Full chadors are a way of making women invisible.  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 02:49 AM   #29 
           - "Against chadors? Then don't wear one!"  AlienGirl   Oct-11-06 02:59 AM   #33 
              - There is an offensive message to all women, unfortunately, whether  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 03:14 AM   #39 
  - I agree. But forcing them not to wear the veil also reduces their equality  Bucky   Oct-11-06 07:39 AM   #61 
  - Do you honestly think that was the tenor of Straw's comments?  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 12:32 PM   #124 
     - Good post  fujiyama   Oct-13-06 01:20 AM   #194 
  - true  donsu   Oct-11-06 10:55 AM   #72 
  - Peace?? After this message  Malikshah   Oct-11-06 11:22 AM   #90 
     - I'm glad to hear your opinions  Psephos   Oct-11-06 02:04 PM   #141 
        - The approach I used was very much akin to the approach used  Malikshah   Oct-11-06 04:38 PM   #146 
           - No, it wasn't  Psephos   Oct-11-06 07:45 PM   #152 
  - leave the choice up to the individual woman  mark414   Oct-11-06 12:05 AM   #11 
  - Exactly.  AlienGirl   Oct-11-06 01:23 AM   #20 
  - Suppose men took to wearing hoods in public,  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 03:00 AM   #34 
  - Why shouldn't I be comfortable with it?  AlienGirl   Oct-11-06 05:23 AM   #48 
  - the place in question is not the US...  mark414   Oct-11-06 10:24 AM   #68 
     - You don't think women wear full veils in the U.S.? They do in my city.  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 12:38 PM   #128 
  - What if the choice is actually being made by her husband or family,  Taxloss   Oct-11-06 11:20 AM   #88 
  - That's quite true  seasonedblue   Oct-11-06 11:31 AM   #95 
  - is forcing a women not to wear something  mark414   Oct-11-06 11:32 AM   #97 
     - Well, there's the dilemma.  Taxloss   Oct-11-06 11:39 AM   #99 
        - yes, it is an interesting and difficult discussion  mark414   Oct-11-06 11:43 AM   #103 
           - Just as only Nixon could go to China, only Straw could make that remark.  Taxloss   Oct-11-06 11:51 AM   #108 
           - He's asking for a dialogue about veiling  riderinthestorm   Oct-11-06 11:57 AM   #111 
              - i must have read it wrong then  mark414   Oct-11-06 12:13 PM   #115 
  - I agree, 100%  bicentennial_baby   Oct-11-06 01:40 PM   #139 
  - Pants take power away from women  UncleSepp   Oct-11-06 12:15 AM   #12 
  - Some think that pants give women power.  Bridget Burke   Oct-11-06 07:50 AM   #64 
  - It's all rather subjective and culture-based, isn't it?  UncleSepp   Oct-11-06 11:43 AM   #104 
  - Straw says in British culture the chardor is wrong  AngryAmish   Oct-11-06 08:12 AM   #67 
  - i don't see where it's a tough issue  pitohui   Oct-11-06 12:18 AM   #13 
  - Those poor Western women can't walk around with their breasts exposed!  Lilith Velkor   Oct-11-06 12:15 PM   #118 
  - "....just another cultural expression......"  omega minimo   Oct-11-06 12:39 AM   #16 
  - As much as makeup and bras.  AlienGirl   Oct-11-06 01:17 AM   #19 
  - You won't be murdered for going without makeup and bras  omega minimo   Oct-11-06 01:34 AM   #21 
     - No one should be murdered for going unveiled, either  AlienGirl   Oct-11-06 01:39 AM   #22 
     - but they are, and we're not  omega minimo   Oct-11-06 02:12 AM   #25 
        - In England? Yes. Both are matters of choice in England.  AlienGirl   Oct-11-06 02:14 AM   #26 
           - It may be her right, but it is a barrier to communication  muriel_volestrangler   Oct-11-06 03:28 AM   #42 
              - Multiculturalism vs. monoculturalism is a worthwhile debate  AlienGirl   Oct-11-06 05:29 AM   #49 
              - You may not consciously depend on facial cues in your communications  mcscajun   Oct-11-06 06:41 AM   #54 
              - good points. yes and there is a BIG facial clue  omega minimo   Oct-11-06 10:34 AM   #70 
              - Do you believe several separate cultures can coexist in one State?  AlienGirl   Oct-11-06 02:39 PM   #142 
                 - Completely separate, making no accomodation for the other?  mcscajun   Oct-11-06 05:05 PM   #150 
                 - Not in the U.S. IF one of the cultures demands on continuing  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 08:36 PM   #156 
              - You don't depend on facial cues? You don't repond to smiles and  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 12:41 PM   #130 
              - Several very different cultures CAN'T coexist in a Liberal Democracy.  Odin2005   Oct-12-06 09:14 PM   #184 
              - No - I wouldn't care if that was their culture.  Clark2008   Oct-11-06 11:22 AM   #89 
              - Which leads to misunderstanding and hard feelings  riderinthestorm   Oct-11-06 11:26 AM   #92 
              - Maybe so...  Clark2008   Oct-11-06 11:54 AM   #110 
                 - We do have limits on our rights (can't yell fire in a crowded theatre)  riderinthestorm   Oct-11-06 12:03 PM   #112 
              - But what if in your job you NEEDED to communicate well with  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 12:47 PM   #132 
              - good analogy. That IS the feeling you get when interacting with someone  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 12:39 PM   #129 
     - Not very likely to be murdered for it in Britain, either  UncleSepp   Oct-11-06 02:08 AM   #24 
        - You're free to limit your own thinking, but not mine  omega minimo   Oct-11-06 02:37 AM   #28 
           - Really? Damn, and I SO wanted to limit your thinking.  UncleSepp   Oct-11-06 02:50 AM   #30 
              - Condescend much?  omega minimo   Oct-11-06 10:25 AM   #69 
                 - As condescending as you are.  UncleSepp   Oct-11-06 11:31 AM   #96 
                    - Still out of your control  omega minimo   Oct-11-06 11:44 AM   #105 
  - true  donsu   Oct-11-06 10:56 AM   #73 
  - cultural expression? Fuck that.  lies and propaganda   Oct-11-06 12:45 AM   #17 
  - I am inclined to agree with this assessment  Skittles   Oct-11-06 02:07 AM   #23 
  - you go girl! any liberal who believes all cultural traditions are equal is  HardRocker05   Oct-11-06 11:42 AM   #102 
     - Nicely said  seasonedblue   Oct-11-06 04:51 PM   #147 
  - Here we go again with the Western Bull in the China Shop  JCMach1   Oct-11-06 02:17 AM   #27 
  - No, it's the China Doll in the western corral. n/t  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 03:11 AM   #38 
  - The male gaze. Hmm.  phylny   Oct-11-06 07:28 AM   #58 
  - Not an issue of control... Would you allow men to touch you physically  JCMach1   Oct-11-06 07:47 AM   #62 
     - We don't get it?  phylny   Oct-11-06 08:02 AM   #66 
     - Where is the "here" that you are talking about?  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 01:38 PM   #138 
     - Thank you.  quantessd   Oct-12-06 01:20 PM   #172 
     - Because the West is the source of all evil, don't you know...  Odin2005   Oct-12-06 09:21 PM   #185 
     - From your description, it sounds as if the veil allows women to behave  pnwmom   Oct-12-06 03:57 PM   #175 
  - This is happening in Britain, not in the Muslim world. n/t  Taxloss   Oct-11-06 11:18 AM   #85 
  - Is this about hijab or niqab? nt  Hatalles   Oct-11-06 03:01 AM   #35 
  - niqab  muriel_volestrangler   Oct-11-06 03:31 AM   #43 
  - Basic principle of individual choice  UncleSepp   Oct-11-06 03:06 AM   #37 
  - What do you think about laws that bar groups of people from  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 03:16 AM   #40 
  - You keep raising the spectre of the KKK  AlienGirl   Oct-11-06 05:31 AM   #50 
  - A veil isn't a mask.  Clark2008   Oct-11-06 11:12 AM   #78 
     - A face veil IS a mask. It covers the face and disguises identity.  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 12:52 PM   #134 
        - Not only that, but if you knew they were going to get beaten  barb162   Oct-12-06 06:17 PM   #180 
  - true, but the veil sprung from a culture where there was *no choice* and  HardRocker05   Oct-11-06 11:48 AM   #107 
     - So they should be coerced in a different way?  mondo joe   Oct-11-06 01:40 PM   #140 
  - Some cultures are better than others.  Nabeshin   Oct-11-06 05:14 AM   #44 
  - And like many others in this thread, you're conflating the veil with the  mcscajun   Oct-11-06 06:43 AM   #55 
  - Exactly, and its damn insensitive if not racist to ask someone to take  JCMach1   Oct-11-06 07:27 AM   #57 
     - Racist? RIIIIIIIIIIGHT...  Odin2005   Oct-12-06 09:24 PM   #186 
  - Back to cultural practices... there is nothing Koranic about  JCMach1   Oct-11-06 07:25 AM   #56 
     - Same with veils.  Nabeshin   Oct-11-06 07:34 AM   #60 
        - Exactly, the Koranic caveat is merely to cover the head  JCMach1   Oct-11-06 07:49 AM   #63 
           - Everything is the work of man  fujiyama   Oct-13-06 01:40 AM   #195 
  - So, would Jack Straw ask the UAE Economic, or Social Affairs Ministers  JCMach1   Oct-11-06 07:32 AM   #59 
  - Rushdie's telling women what to do.  Bridget Burke   Oct-11-06 07:52 AM   #65 
  - .  Clark2008   Oct-11-06 11:17 AM   #82 
  - They should be able  Marie26   Oct-11-06 10:38 AM   #71 
  - it always mystified me as to why catholic women had to cover their  donsu   Oct-11-06 11:03 AM   #74 
  - First off, that's not required of Catholic women anymore  Clark2008   Oct-11-06 11:16 AM   #81 
     - thanks, didn't know it was revised  donsu   Oct-11-06 11:28 AM   #94 
  - If it helps, I'm a feminist too and the ex-wife of a Muslim man  Clark2008   Oct-11-06 11:07 AM   #75 
  - Thank you!  UncleSepp   Oct-11-06 11:34 AM   #98 
  - I'm not conflicted at all on this.  Chomp   Oct-11-06 12:36 PM   #127 
  - Your last point rocks  aaronbees   Oct-13-06 03:47 AM   #198 
  - This isn't an issue to me.  Bornaginhooligan   Oct-11-06 12:51 PM   #133 
  - There's something FISHY about your headline...  The Witch   Oct-11-06 04:08 PM   #145 
  - hah, hah! I guess spell check thought I did a good job.  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 08:39 PM   #157 
  - Choice is the key word: If Muslim women choose to wear the veil,  entanglement   Oct-11-06 04:55 PM   #148 
  - "annoys Western feminists" is not the point.  omega minimo   Oct-11-06 05:18 PM   #151 
  - I am not conflicted  BoneDaddy   Oct-11-06 07:58 PM   #153 
  - Good post.  quantessd   Oct-12-06 01:27 PM   #173 
     - I know the feeling  BoneDaddy   Oct-12-06 04:24 PM   #177 
  - You don't have to be conflicted.  SmokingJacket   Oct-11-06 08:06 PM   #154 
  - I adore how some people negate a woman's choice...  bicentennial_baby   Oct-11-06 09:39 PM   #160 
  - And you know that none of the women or teens in Massachussetts  pnwmom   Oct-11-06 11:46 PM   #161 
     - In general you can't know if anyone is being forced to do anything  mondo joe   Oct-12-06 12:14 PM   #163 
        - So we shouldn't assume that women are wearing chadors out of choice.  pnwmom   Oct-12-06 12:32 PM   #168 
           - Obviously the legal system should protect people from being  mondo joe   Oct-12-06 12:35 PM   #169 
              - Well then,  quantessd   Oct-12-06 06:39 PM   #181 
                 - Can you tell anyone they can't pressure someone?  mondo joe   Oct-12-06 07:47 PM   #183 
  - Right on, Rushdie  barb162   Oct-12-06 12:24 PM   #165 
  - Wearing the veil has become a symbol of 'political defiance' as well  JCMach1   Oct-12-06 12:31 PM   #167 
  - I always thought Rushdie made a career out of ...  etherealtruth   Oct-12-06 04:38 PM   #178 
     - You obviously haven't read his stuff...  JCMach1   Oct-13-06 12:43 AM   #187 
  - No different from the bikini or Hooters attire  hsher   Oct-12-06 07:33 PM   #182 
  - It really depends on what you mean by veil  fujiyama   Oct-13-06 01:02 AM   #188 
  - So what about traditional Nun's outfits then? Would you permit that?  JCMach1   Oct-13-06 01:04 AM   #189 
     - Do traditional nuns  fujiyama   Oct-13-06 01:11 AM   #192 
        - Intransigence... As I posted in an earlier post in this thread  JCMach1   Oct-13-06 03:55 AM   #199 
  - Customs That Repress Women Are Cultural Differences That Must Be Honored  REP   Oct-13-06 01:49 AM   #197 
  - dude. such bullshit over fashion...  NuttyFluffers   Oct-13-06 04:38 AM   #200 
 

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