| 33. "Against chadors? Then don't wear one!" |
| -Salmon Rushdie: Veils take power from women |
pnwmom |
Oct-10-06 09:12 PM |
#0 |
 -
I'm Conflicted Too |
iamjoy |
Oct-10-06 09:21 PM |
#1 |
  -
Some women needn't hide ANYTHING |
Karenina |
Oct-12-06 01:03 PM |
#171 |
| -
I'll agree with Straw |
DaveinMD |
Oct-10-06 09:22 PM |
#2 |
| -
Yet his issue is not with sexism, but with communication |
mcscajun |
Oct-10-06 09:33 PM |
#5 |
| -
And I think a lot of people underestimate how important that is. |
pnwmom |
Oct-11-06 12:00 AM |
#7 |
| -
you are correct, we wouldn't tolerate it for a minute |
pitohui |
Oct-11-06 12:24 AM |
#15 |
| -
Right, that's the assumption -- that women are weak and |
pnwmom |
Oct-11-06 02:55 AM |
#31 |
| -
Any country where women are forced to look through a rectangle of mesh... |
Nabeshin |
Oct-11-06 05:16 AM |
#45 |
| -
Is Great Britain forcing that these days? |
AlienGirl |
Oct-11-06 05:33 AM |
#51 |
| -
Are you aware that many Muslim women in Great Britain live |
pnwmom |
Oct-11-06 12:16 PM |
#119 |
| -
I have seen women in my own US city wearing a chador that |
pnwmom |
Oct-11-06 12:14 PM |
#117 |
| -
The veil Straw is talking about is just that, a face veil that leaves |
mcscajun |
Oct-11-06 06:33 AM |
#52 |
| -
Wrong. It's an issue for women FROM those countries who end up in |
pnwmom |
Oct-11-06 12:18 PM |
#120 |
| -
There should be. (no text) |
quantessd |
Oct-11-06 01:14 PM |
#135 |
| -
When they get in an accident there's a law. It's called reckless driving |
mcscajun |
Oct-11-06 05:04 PM |
#149 |
| -
The first time I saw a woman in a chador was in my local Sears, |
pnwmom |
Oct-11-06 08:32 PM |
#155 |
| -
I haven't seen any chadors or burqas, as I've said before, but I HAVE |
mcscajun |
Oct-11-06 09:24 PM |
#159 |
| -
I have seen this kind of thing when it's 95 and humid. |
barb162 |
Oct-12-06 12:21 PM |
#164 |
| -
Yeah, really. How come men never have to be modest? |
pnwmom |
Oct-12-06 12:35 PM |
#170 |
| -
I don't know |
barb162 |
Oct-12-06 06:02 PM |
#179 |
| -
You'd identify the other driver |
Dorian Gray |
Oct-11-06 12:35 PM |
#126 |
| -
But if you couldn't see the face, how would you know you were looking |
pnwmom |
Oct-11-06 01:32 PM |
#137 |
| -
Their license PLATES... |
Dorian Gray |
Oct-11-06 03:00 PM |
#143 |
| -
The police could only determine who the car owner SAID was driving. |
pnwmom |
Oct-11-06 03:17 PM |
#144 |
| -
How about None? |
mcscajun |
Oct-11-06 06:34 AM |
#53 |
| -
I agree completely. |
tenshi816 |
Oct-13-06 01:47 AM |
#196 |
| -
And you don't think it's sexist for him to tell them how to dress? |
Clark2008 |
Oct-11-06 11:08 AM |
#76 |
| -
the veil is sexist by nature |
DaveinMD |
Oct-11-06 11:14 AM |
#79 |
| -
Absolutely, the veil is sexist |
seasonedblue |
Oct-11-06 11:17 AM |
#83 |
| -
Well, you're not Muslim are you? |
Clark2008 |
Oct-11-06 11:18 AM |
#84 |
| -
I'm not so sure you can say for certain that it's always a "choice" |
riderinthestorm |
Oct-11-06 11:23 AM |
#91 |
| -
But neither should they force unveiling. |
Clark2008 |
Oct-11-06 11:41 AM |
#101 |
| -
I didn't get that the Brits are trying to force any kind of unveiling |
riderinthestorm |
Oct-11-06 11:45 AM |
#106 |
| -
Right. Many of these communities are very isolated. The girls and |
pnwmom |
Oct-11-06 12:22 PM |
#122 |
| -
How do you know that they chose it? |
seasonedblue |
Oct-11-06 11:27 AM |
#93 |
| -
How many Muslim women do you know? |
Clark2008 |
Oct-11-06 11:41 AM |
#100 |
| -
The fact that you know many women who |
seasonedblue |
Oct-11-06 12:06 PM |
#113 |
| -
By definition the ones YOU know are the ones who are allowed to |
pnwmom |
Oct-11-06 12:27 PM |
#123 |
| -
I know many as well ... |
etherealtruth |
Oct-12-06 04:22 PM |
#176 |
| -
Kind of hard for me to be sexist since I'm female. |
Clark2008 |
Oct-11-06 11:19 AM |
#86 |
| -
but they are being dictated to wear the veil |
DaveinMD |
Oct-11-06 12:43 PM |
#131 |
| -
That's right though some women willfully do it to please the men |
barb162 |
Oct-12-06 12:25 PM |
#166 |
| -
I don't think people |
fujiyama |
Oct-13-06 01:09 AM |
#191 |
| -
I don't think he was "telling them" anything |
pnwmom |
Oct-11-06 12:21 PM |
#121 |
| -
Any governmental dictate regarding what women may wear is, by |
BleedingHeartPatriot |
Oct-10-06 09:28 PM |
#3 |
| -
Or religious dictate. The Quran isn't very clear about exactly what is |
riderinthestorm |
Oct-10-06 09:36 PM |
#6 |
| -
Nuns never wore chadors, as far as I know. Just hair covering veils. |
pnwmom |
Oct-11-06 02:58 AM |
#32 |
| -
It "feels" extreme, but one thinks with one's brain and not one's guts |
AlienGirl |
Oct-11-06 03:05 AM |
#36 |
| -
How do you know the women are wearing the veil as a choice? |
pnwmom |
Oct-11-06 03:17 AM |
#41 |
| -
In Great Britain, who's forcing them? |
AlienGirl |
Oct-11-06 05:18 AM |
#46 |
| -
No one. |
Clark2008 |
Oct-11-06 11:11 AM |
#77 |
| -
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the law in France |
riderinthestorm |
Oct-11-06 11:20 AM |
#87 |
| -
How do you know that? And what about the ones who, even |
pnwmom |
Oct-11-06 12:13 PM |
#116 |
| -
Anyone |
fujiyama |
Oct-13-06 01:16 AM |
#193 |
| -
Oh, I get it. In Western countries, women are never abused. |
pnwmom |
Oct-11-06 12:10 PM |
#114 |
| -
Heh, I've said the same thing. |
Nabeshin |
Oct-11-06 05:19 AM |
#47 |
| -
Or they just need to wait for the passage of time |
Book Lover |
Oct-11-06 11:53 AM |
#109 |
| -
Wow, that's harsh |
lapislzi |
Oct-11-06 12:34 PM |
#125 |
| -
Yes, it is harsh |
Book Lover |
Oct-11-06 01:15 PM |
#136 |
| -
My experience is not the same |
Taoschick |
Oct-12-06 02:53 PM |
#174 |
| -
I think the burqua extremism was obsorbed from other non-Islamic cultures |
Ignacio Upton |
Oct-13-06 01:05 AM |
#190 |
| -
What about a law that bans people from wearing |
pnwmom |
Oct-11-06 12:02 AM |
#8 |
| -
Exactly, what BHP said...and I agree with Rushdie (n/t) |
Triana |
Oct-11-06 12:05 AM |
#9 |
| -
Such as Scold's bridles, scarlet letters, cuckolder's horns ...? |
Taxloss |
Oct-11-06 11:15 AM |
#80 |
| -
um, ok, "the state liberates people by forbidding certain things". |
BleedingHeartPatriot |
Oct-11-06 08:51 PM |
#158 |
| -
The British are still remembered for abolishing suttee in India. |
Taxloss |
Oct-12-06 12:09 PM |
#162 |
| -
The veil conveys that its wearer is not co-equal with men |
Psephos |
Oct-10-06 09:32 PM |
#4 |
| -
I remember the first time I saw a woman in a full chador -- only |
pnwmom |
Oct-11-06 12:05 AM |
#10 |
| -
yeah once you see it you really see what it's about, don't you? |
pitohui |
Oct-11-06 12:21 AM |
#14 |
| -
It has no more intrinsic meaning than glasses vs. contacts |
AlienGirl |
Oct-11-06 01:15 AM |
#18 |
| -
Full chadors are a way of making women invisible. |
pnwmom |
Oct-11-06 02:49 AM |
#29 |
| -
"Against chadors? Then don't wear one!" |
AlienGirl |
Oct-11-06 02:59 AM |
#33 |
| -
There is an offensive message to all women, unfortunately, whether |
pnwmom |
Oct-11-06 03:14 AM |
#39 |
| -
I agree. But forcing them not to wear the veil also reduces their equality |
Bucky |
Oct-11-06 07:39 AM |
#61 |
| -
Do you honestly think that was the tenor of Straw's comments? |
pnwmom |
Oct-11-06 12:32 PM |
#124 |
| -
Good post |
fujiyama |
Oct-13-06 01:20 AM |
#194 |
| -
true |
donsu |
Oct-11-06 10:55 AM |
#72 |
| -
Peace?? After this message |
Malikshah |
Oct-11-06 11:22 AM |
#90 |
| -
I'm glad to hear your opinions |
Psephos |
Oct-11-06 02:04 PM |
#141 |
| -
The approach I used was very much akin to the approach used |
Malikshah |
Oct-11-06 04:38 PM |
#146 |
| -
No, it wasn't |
Psephos |
Oct-11-06 07:45 PM |
#152 |
| -
leave the choice up to the individual woman |
mark414 |
Oct-11-06 12:05 AM |
#11 |
| -
Exactly. |
AlienGirl |
Oct-11-06 01:23 AM |
#20 |
| -
Suppose men took to wearing hoods in public, |
pnwmom |
Oct-11-06 03:00 AM |
#34 |
| -
Why shouldn't I be comfortable with it? |
AlienGirl |
Oct-11-06 05:23 AM |
#48 |
| -
the place in question is not the US... |
mark414 |
Oct-11-06 10:24 AM |
#68 |
| -
You don't think women wear full veils in the U.S.? They do in my city. |
pnwmom |
Oct-11-06 12:38 PM |
#128 |
| -
What if the choice is actually being made by her husband or family, |
Taxloss |
Oct-11-06 11:20 AM |
#88 |
| -
That's quite true |
seasonedblue |
Oct-11-06 11:31 AM |
#95 |
| -
is forcing a women not to wear something |
mark414 |
Oct-11-06 11:32 AM |
#97 |
| -
Well, there's the dilemma. |
Taxloss |
Oct-11-06 11:39 AM |
#99 |
| -
yes, it is an interesting and difficult discussion |
mark414 |
Oct-11-06 11:43 AM |
#103 |
| -
Just as only Nixon could go to China, only Straw could make that remark. |
Taxloss |
Oct-11-06 11:51 AM |
#108 |
| -
He's asking for a dialogue about veiling |
riderinthestorm |
Oct-11-06 11:57 AM |
#111 |
| -
i must have read it wrong then |
mark414 |
Oct-11-06 12:13 PM |
#115 |
| -
I agree, 100% |
bicentennial_baby |
Oct-11-06 01:40 PM |
#139 |
| -
Pants take power away from women |
UncleSepp |
Oct-11-06 12:15 AM |
#12 |
| -
Some think that pants give women power. |
Bridget Burke |
Oct-11-06 07:50 AM |
#64 |
| -
It's all rather subjective and culture-based, isn't it? |
UncleSepp |
Oct-11-06 11:43 AM |
#104 |
| -
Straw says in British culture the chardor is wrong |
AngryAmish |
Oct-11-06 08:12 AM |
#67 |
| -
i don't see where it's a tough issue |
pitohui |
Oct-11-06 12:18 AM |
#13 |
| -
Those poor Western women can't walk around with their breasts exposed! |
Lilith Velkor |
Oct-11-06 12:15 PM |
#118 |
| -
"....just another cultural expression......" |
omega minimo |
Oct-11-06 12:39 AM |
#16 |
| -
As much as makeup and bras. |
AlienGirl |
Oct-11-06 01:17 AM |
#19 |
| -
You won't be murdered for going without makeup and bras |
omega minimo |
Oct-11-06 01:34 AM |
#21 |
| -
No one should be murdered for going unveiled, either |
AlienGirl |
Oct-11-06 01:39 AM |
#22 |
| -
but they are, and we're not |
omega minimo |
Oct-11-06 02:12 AM |
#25 |
| -
In England? Yes. Both are matters of choice in England. |
AlienGirl |
Oct-11-06 02:14 AM |
#26 |
| -
It may be her right, but it is a barrier to communication |
muriel_volestrangler |
Oct-11-06 03:28 AM |
#42 |
| -
Multiculturalism vs. monoculturalism is a worthwhile debate |
AlienGirl |
Oct-11-06 05:29 AM |
#49 |
| -
You may not consciously depend on facial cues in your communications |
mcscajun |
Oct-11-06 06:41 AM |
#54 |
| -
good points. yes and there is a BIG facial clue |
omega minimo |
Oct-11-06 10:34 AM |
#70 |
| -
Do you believe several separate cultures can coexist in one State? |
AlienGirl |
Oct-11-06 02:39 PM |
#142 |
| -
Completely separate, making no accomodation for the other? |
mcscajun |
Oct-11-06 05:05 PM |
#150 |
| -
Not in the U.S. IF one of the cultures demands on continuing |
pnwmom |
Oct-11-06 08:36 PM |
#156 |
| -
You don't depend on facial cues? You don't repond to smiles and |
pnwmom |
Oct-11-06 12:41 PM |
#130 |
| -
Several very different cultures CAN'T coexist in a Liberal Democracy. |
Odin2005 |
Oct-12-06 09:14 PM |
#184 |
| -
No - I wouldn't care if that was their culture. |
Clark2008 |
Oct-11-06 11:22 AM |
#89 |
| -
Which leads to misunderstanding and hard feelings |
riderinthestorm |
Oct-11-06 11:26 AM |
#92 |
| -
Maybe so... |
Clark2008 |
Oct-11-06 11:54 AM |
#110 |
| -
We do have limits on our rights (can't yell fire in a crowded theatre) |
riderinthestorm |
Oct-11-06 12:03 PM |
#112 |
| -
But what if in your job you NEEDED to communicate well with |
pnwmom |
Oct-11-06 12:47 PM |
#132 |
| -
good analogy. That IS the feeling you get when interacting with someone |
pnwmom |
Oct-11-06 12:39 PM |
#129 |
| -
Not very likely to be murdered for it in Britain, either |
UncleSepp |
Oct-11-06 02:08 AM |
#24 |
| -
You're free to limit your own thinking, but not mine |
omega minimo |
Oct-11-06 02:37 AM |
#28 |
| -
Really? Damn, and I SO wanted to limit your thinking. |
UncleSepp |
Oct-11-06 02:50 AM |
#30 |
| -
Condescend much? |
omega minimo |
Oct-11-06 10:25 AM |
#69 |
| -
As condescending as you are. |
UncleSepp |
Oct-11-06 11:31 AM |
#96 |
| -
Still out of your control |
omega minimo |
Oct-11-06 11:44 AM |
#105 |
| -
true |
donsu |
Oct-11-06 10:56 AM |
#73 |
| -
cultural expression? Fuck that. |
lies and propaganda |
Oct-11-06 12:45 AM |
#17 |
| -
I am inclined to agree with this assessment |
Skittles |
Oct-11-06 02:07 AM |
#23 |
| -
you go girl! any liberal who believes all cultural traditions are equal is |
HardRocker05 |
Oct-11-06 11:42 AM |
#102 |
| -
Nicely said |
seasonedblue |
Oct-11-06 04:51 PM |
#147 |
| -
Here we go again with the Western Bull in the China Shop |
JCMach1 |
Oct-11-06 02:17 AM |
#27 |
| -
No, it's the China Doll in the western corral. n/t |
pnwmom |
Oct-11-06 03:11 AM |
#38 |
| -
The male gaze. Hmm. |
phylny |
Oct-11-06 07:28 AM |
#58 |
| -
Not an issue of control... Would you allow men to touch you physically |
JCMach1 |
Oct-11-06 07:47 AM |
#62 |
| -
We don't get it? |
phylny |
Oct-11-06 08:02 AM |
#66 |
| -
Where is the "here" that you are talking about? |
pnwmom |
Oct-11-06 01:38 PM |
#138 |
| -
Thank you. |
quantessd |
Oct-12-06 01:20 PM |
#172 |
| -
Because the West is the source of all evil, don't you know... |
Odin2005 |
Oct-12-06 09:21 PM |
#185 |
| -
From your description, it sounds as if the veil allows women to behave |
pnwmom |
Oct-12-06 03:57 PM |
#175 |
| -
This is happening in Britain, not in the Muslim world. n/t |
Taxloss |
Oct-11-06 11:18 AM |
#85 |
| -
Is this about hijab or niqab? nt |
Hatalles |
Oct-11-06 03:01 AM |
#35 |
| -
niqab |
muriel_volestrangler |
Oct-11-06 03:31 AM |
#43 |
| -
Basic principle of individual choice |
UncleSepp |
Oct-11-06 03:06 AM |
#37 |
| -
What do you think about laws that bar groups of people from |
pnwmom |
Oct-11-06 03:16 AM |
#40 |
| -
You keep raising the spectre of the KKK |
AlienGirl |
Oct-11-06 05:31 AM |
#50 |
| -
A veil isn't a mask. |
Clark2008 |
Oct-11-06 11:12 AM |
#78 |
| -
A face veil IS a mask. It covers the face and disguises identity. |
pnwmom |
Oct-11-06 12:52 PM |
#134 |
| -
Not only that, but if you knew they were going to get beaten |
barb162 |
Oct-12-06 06:17 PM |
#180 |
| -
true, but the veil sprung from a culture where there was *no choice* and |
HardRocker05 |
Oct-11-06 11:48 AM |
#107 |
| -
So they should be coerced in a different way? |
mondo joe |
Oct-11-06 01:40 PM |
#140 |
| -
Some cultures are better than others. |
Nabeshin |
Oct-11-06 05:14 AM |
#44 |
| -
And like many others in this thread, you're conflating the veil with the |
mcscajun |
Oct-11-06 06:43 AM |
#55 |
| -
Exactly, and its damn insensitive if not racist to ask someone to take |
JCMach1 |
Oct-11-06 07:27 AM |
#57 |
| -
Racist? RIIIIIIIIIIGHT... |
Odin2005 |
Oct-12-06 09:24 PM |
#186 |
| -
Back to cultural practices... there is nothing Koranic about |
JCMach1 |
Oct-11-06 07:25 AM |
#56 |
| -
Same with veils. |
Nabeshin |
Oct-11-06 07:34 AM |
#60 |
| -
Exactly, the Koranic caveat is merely to cover the head |
JCMach1 |
Oct-11-06 07:49 AM |
#63 |
| -
Everything is the work of man |
fujiyama |
Oct-13-06 01:40 AM |
#195 |
| -
So, would Jack Straw ask the UAE Economic, or Social Affairs Ministers |
JCMach1 |
Oct-11-06 07:32 AM |
#59 |
| -
Rushdie's telling women what to do. |
Bridget Burke |
Oct-11-06 07:52 AM |
#65 |
| -
. |
Clark2008 |
Oct-11-06 11:17 AM |
#82 |
| -
They should be able |
Marie26 |
Oct-11-06 10:38 AM |
#71 |
| -
it always mystified me as to why catholic women had to cover their |
donsu |
Oct-11-06 11:03 AM |
#74 |
| -
First off, that's not required of Catholic women anymore |
Clark2008 |
Oct-11-06 11:16 AM |
#81 |
| -
thanks, didn't know it was revised |
donsu |
Oct-11-06 11:28 AM |
#94 |
| -
If it helps, I'm a feminist too and the ex-wife of a Muslim man |
Clark2008 |
Oct-11-06 11:07 AM |
#75 |
| -
Thank you! |
UncleSepp |
Oct-11-06 11:34 AM |
#98 |
| -
I'm not conflicted at all on this. |
Chomp |
Oct-11-06 12:36 PM |
#127 |
| -
Your last point rocks |
aaronbees |
Oct-13-06 03:47 AM |
#198 |
| -
This isn't an issue to me. |
Bornaginhooligan |
Oct-11-06 12:51 PM |
#133 |
| -
There's something FISHY about your headline... |
The Witch |
Oct-11-06 04:08 PM |
#145 |
| -
hah, hah! I guess spell check thought I did a good job. |
pnwmom |
Oct-11-06 08:39 PM |
#157 |
| -
Choice is the key word: If Muslim women choose to wear the veil, |
entanglement |
Oct-11-06 04:55 PM |
#148 |
| -
"annoys Western feminists" is not the point. |
omega minimo |
Oct-11-06 05:18 PM |
#151 |
| -
I am not conflicted |
BoneDaddy |
Oct-11-06 07:58 PM |
#153 |
| -
Good post. |
quantessd |
Oct-12-06 01:27 PM |
#173 |
| -
I know the feeling |
BoneDaddy |
Oct-12-06 04:24 PM |
#177 |
| -
You don't have to be conflicted. |
SmokingJacket |
Oct-11-06 08:06 PM |
#154 |
| -
I adore how some people negate a woman's choice... |
bicentennial_baby |
Oct-11-06 09:39 PM |
#160 |
| -
And you know that none of the women or teens in Massachussetts |
pnwmom |
Oct-11-06 11:46 PM |
#161 |
| -
In general you can't know if anyone is being forced to do anything |
mondo joe |
Oct-12-06 12:14 PM |
#163 |
| -
So we shouldn't assume that women are wearing chadors out of choice. |
pnwmom |
Oct-12-06 12:32 PM |
#168 |
| -
Obviously the legal system should protect people from being |
mondo joe |
Oct-12-06 12:35 PM |
#169 |
| -
Well then, |
quantessd |
Oct-12-06 06:39 PM |
#181 |
| -
Can you tell anyone they can't pressure someone? |
mondo joe |
Oct-12-06 07:47 PM |
#183 |
| -
Right on, Rushdie |
barb162 |
Oct-12-06 12:24 PM |
#165 |
| -
Wearing the veil has become a symbol of 'political defiance' as well |
JCMach1 |
Oct-12-06 12:31 PM |
#167 |
| -
I always thought Rushdie made a career out of ... |
etherealtruth |
Oct-12-06 04:38 PM |
#178 |
| -
You obviously haven't read his stuff... |
JCMach1 |
Oct-13-06 12:43 AM |
#187 |
| -
No different from the bikini or Hooters attire |
hsher |
Oct-12-06 07:33 PM |
#182 |
| -
It really depends on what you mean by veil |
fujiyama |
Oct-13-06 01:02 AM |
#188 |
| -
So what about traditional Nun's outfits then? Would you permit that? |
JCMach1 |
Oct-13-06 01:04 AM |
#189 |
| -
Do traditional nuns |
fujiyama |
Oct-13-06 01:11 AM |
#192 |
| -
Intransigence... As I posted in an earlier post in this thread |
JCMach1 |
Oct-13-06 03:55 AM |
#199 |
| -
Customs That Repress Women Are Cultural Differences That Must Be Honored |
REP |
Oct-13-06 01:49 AM |
#197 |
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dude. such bullshit over fashion... |
NuttyFluffers |
Oct-13-06 04:38 AM |
#200 |
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