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Reply #127: LOL! Umm, The Strawman Is Yours [View All]

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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-17-06 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #123
127. LOL! Umm, The Strawman Is Yours
Edited on Thu Aug-17-06 04:40 PM by Beetwasher
"I hope we don't get to the point where people decide the constitution leaves us open to attack."

That's what you wrote, and it is IRRELEVANT what the people decide about the constitution, the constitution is designed to protect individual rights REGARDLESS OF WHAT THE MAJORITY DECIDE. If "people decide" the constitution leaves us open to attack, guess what? Constitutionally speaking, it's irrelevant AND w/ regards to power dynamics it's irrelevant. If you don't get it, it's your own failing, not mine.

Reverse the situation a bit and think about it. What if there was a nuke attack and the majority of people DID want to throw out the constitution but a wise leader said "No, I will NOT abrogate my responsibilities and I will NOT eliminate constitutional protections". Could the majority FORCE him to do so? Not likely, at least not anytime soon. They would have to elect people willing to do so first.

Your whole argument is one big strawman. Either you're discussing constitutional rights, which means the constitution holds authority, regardless of what the majority thinks, or your discussing power dynamics and the constitution is irrelevant anyway and in that case, majority opinion is ALSO totally irrelevant. Majorities have no enforcement power unless you're discussing elections. Only the small minority that controls the armed forces, police etc. has enforcement power, and if they had the gumption to declare marshall law, they can do so, regardless of what the majority wants. If the majority DIDN'T want them to declare marshall law, would that stop them? If your answer is no, then your point about majority opinion having any sway is blown out of the water (and any reasonable person would have to answer "no" to that).

Either you are naive, or utterly determined to cling to your strawman about majority opinions in relation to constitutional questions and power dynamics.

Again, just for clarity since you obviously need it, we are talking about TWO SEPARATE ISSUES. One, has to do w/ constitutionality and the second has to do w/ power dynamics in the event of national catastrophe. Two totally separate issues, neither of which is dependant upon majority opinion.

"If a nuke went off in the US, and the majority of the people said that we should toss out the Bill of Rights, we (as a country) probably would, assuming that majority had the power to do that, which I think they would."

If a majority were against tossing out the bill of rights in this instance, guess what? It wouldn't matter, they could do it anyway, which means THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE'S OPINION IS IRRELEVANT. PERIOD.
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  - Try this link instead.  Nickster   Aug-17-06 11:08 AM   #1 
  - Yes!  Botany   Aug-17-06 11:09 AM   #2 
  - Oh yeah, they gotta love  zidzi   Aug-17-06 02:13 PM   #94 
  - Great news, but I'm sure they'll take it to the Supremes  SharonRB   Aug-17-06 11:09 AM   #3 
  - They need a basis to appeal.  hootinholler   Aug-17-06 01:52 PM   #84 
  - Their grounds for appeal is that the program is constitutional...  MrCoffee   Aug-17-06 05:27 PM   #141 
  - They'll appeal.  Laelth   Aug-17-06 09:10 PM   #165 
  - Why?  John Gauger   Aug-17-06 04:13 PM   #125 
     - Exactly! "So it's unconstitutional--so what!" they'll say.  ktowntennesseedem   Aug-17-06 05:33 PM   #142 
     - I think that BushCo WANTS the case to get kicked to the Supremes....  Drum   Aug-18-06 01:19 AM   #170 
        - SCOTUS will affirm the district court at least 6-3  MrCoffee   Aug-18-06 09:49 AM   #185 
  - check your link kpete  seemslikeadream   Aug-17-06 11:09 AM   #4 
  - Busted link, here's a better one  WilliamPitt   Aug-17-06 11:10 AM   #5 
  - The link does not work for me.  EST   Aug-17-06 11:10 AM   #6 
  - how does one spell "Y I P P E E "?  antifaschits   Aug-17-06 11:11 AM   #7 
  - It's also a sad day for our country...  file83   Aug-17-06 02:33 PM   #106 
  - QUICK!! More Jon Benet Updates Or People Might Actually Hear About This!  Beetwasher   Aug-17-06 11:11 AM   #8 
  - Yep, I just turned on cnn to see if they were covering the real news...  me b zola   Aug-17-06 11:19 AM   #23 
  - Frist raises JonBenet from the dead...  wryter2000   Aug-17-06 02:17 PM   #97 
  - Gonzo should be booted for failing to comply with the judges ruling  Imagevision   Aug-17-06 03:23 PM   #120 
  - This just in!!! Jon Benet is still dead!!!  ktowntennesseedem   Aug-17-06 05:36 PM   #143 
  - Stupid activist judges  kurth   Aug-17-06 11:12 AM   #9 
  - Can we put some people in Jail, NOW?  Nimrod2005   Aug-17-06 11:12 AM   #10 
  - Starting with the judge.  Bleachers7   Aug-17-06 12:38 PM   #70 
  - Oh those "Activist" judges! Why do they support terrorism?  devilgrrl   Aug-17-06 11:13 AM   #11 
  - Woo Hoo!  TheGoldenRule   Aug-17-06 11:13 AM   #12 
  - Don't get too happy. This is just the first step.  philosophie_en_rose   Aug-17-06 11:13 AM   #13 
  - If it says they need to stop... it would be illegal to continue  Oreo   Aug-17-06 11:17 AM   #20 
  - It's definitely a good sign, but legality has never stopped Bush before.  philosophie_en_rose   Aug-17-06 11:23 AM   #27 
  - actually it is a little better than that.  spooky3   Aug-17-06 11:19 AM   #24 
     - True. But there are conservative district courts as well.  philosophie_en_rose   Aug-17-06 11:26 AM   #28 
        - I agree that people should not get too excited at this  spooky3   Aug-17-06 11:42 AM   #40 
  - Will bush care I wonder?  Philosoraptor   Aug-17-06 11:14 AM   #14 
  - you wonder?  SlavesandBulldozers   Aug-17-06 01:55 PM   #87 
  - Kick this until November!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Imagevision   Aug-17-06 02:34 PM   #107 
  - Oh thank goodness SOMEONE remembers the Constitution!  GloriaSmith   Aug-17-06 11:14 AM   #15 
  - Why do they hate Bush's Freedom to hate our Freedom?  paparush   Aug-17-06 11:15 AM   #16 
  - That is freakin' hilarious!  cool user name   Aug-18-06 10:27 AM   #187 
  - Wait a minute.....doesn't doing something UnConstitutional while President  Nickster   Aug-17-06 11:16 AM   #17 
  - Actually, no. Truman's attempt to nationalize the steel industry  HereSince1628   Aug-17-06 08:24 PM   #159 
  - Since the court is in Detroit...  NewJeffCT   Aug-17-06 11:16 AM   #18 
  - FUCKING JONBENET PRESS CONF JUST IN TIME  mikelgb   Aug-17-06 11:16 AM   #19 
  - Judge: Bush Surveillance Program Violates Constitution  chat_noir   Aug-17-06 11:18 AM   #21 
  - I don't think the Supremes will back Bush on this one....  rateyes   Aug-17-06 11:18 AM   #22 
  - Hamdan undermines the executive case on this I thought. The  caligirl   Aug-17-06 11:23 AM   #25 
  - Scalia will go along with *  wryter2000   Aug-17-06 02:21 PM   #98 
  - I wonder how much influence US v. Reynolds had?  sofa king   Aug-17-06 11:23 AM   #26 
  - From the link to Judge Taylors judgment and order for permanent injunction  Emit   Aug-17-06 06:19 PM   #150 
  - Brilliant tactical move by the ACLU  MrCoffee   Aug-18-06 01:14 PM   #189 
  - More on Judge Anna Diggs Taylor  Oreo   Aug-17-06 11:26 AM   #29 
  - Jimmy Carter...the President who keeps on giving! n/t  brer cat   Aug-17-06 05:05 PM   #137 
  - Yes, Virginia... There IS a Santa Claus!  Patsy Stone   Aug-17-06 11:27 AM   #30 
  - Attorney General Gonzalez should be fired ASAP!!  Imagevision   Aug-17-06 02:07 PM   #92 
  - Impeachment for George and Dick  Patsy Stone   Aug-17-06 03:05 PM   #118 
  - Here Comes The Judge! Go! YES!  goclark   Aug-17-06 03:33 PM   #121 
  - In yo face, fascists  warrens   Aug-17-06 11:28 AM   #31 
  - UN. CON. STITUTIONAL.  derby378   Aug-17-06 11:29 AM   #32 
  - But will the President listen?  originalpckelly   Aug-17-06 11:29 AM   #33 
  - I refuse to read this.."its real new"s and not about Jon Benet..  flyarm   Aug-17-06 11:34 AM   #34 
  - cnn talking about it now  me b zola   Aug-17-06 11:35 AM   #35 
  - oops, back to JBR  me b zola   Aug-17-06 11:43 AM   #41 
  - watch as CNN becomes the all Jon Benet all the time Network  Supersedeas   Aug-17-06 11:36 AM   #36 
  - at least MSNBC is covering news (jab, jab) ..n/t  AntiFascist   Aug-17-06 04:09 PM   #124 
  - Great news! But, will it survive an appeal to the repuke Supreme Court?  Jim__   Aug-17-06 11:39 AM   #37 
  - this is the 2nd slap on the WH--recall the Gitmo ruling!!  rodeodance   Aug-17-06 11:39 AM   #38 
  - cnn saying the WH will fire back saying they need the tools to get the  rodeodance   Aug-17-06 11:40 AM   #39 
     - Greatest 'tool' is common sense (and they ain't got none in Shrubland) nt  EVDebs   Aug-17-06 01:30 PM   #81 
     - I thought the tools were already in the WH  Olney Blue   Aug-18-06 07:11 AM   #176 
  - I just hope  ryanus   Aug-17-06 11:46 AM   #42 
  - *Sigh* That's A Load Of Crap  Beetwasher   Aug-17-06 11:50 AM   #44 
  - Yeah I know  ryanus   Aug-17-06 12:02 PM   #47 
     - Oy  Beetwasher   Aug-17-06 12:32 PM   #63 
        - I can't agree with that  ryanus   Aug-17-06 12:45 PM   #73 
           - Have You Ever Read The Constitution?  Beetwasher   Aug-17-06 01:31 PM   #82 
              - Easy now  ryanus   Aug-17-06 01:55 PM   #86 
                 - But You're Wrong  Beetwasher   Aug-17-06 02:07 PM   #91 
                    - You miss my point  ryanus   Aug-17-06 02:25 PM   #101 
                       - That's Total Bullshit  Beetwasher   Aug-17-06 03:19 PM   #119 
                          - strawman  ryanus   Aug-17-06 04:02 PM   #123 
                             - LOL! Umm, The Strawman Is Yours  Beetwasher   Aug-17-06 04:25 PM   #127 
                                - Ok  ryanus   Aug-17-06 04:38 PM   #131 
                                   - "I can't see how this can be true." Oh Brother!  Beetwasher   Aug-17-06 04:42 PM   #132 
                                      - Yeah you're right  ryanus   Aug-17-06 04:45 PM   #134 
                                         - No Problem  Beetwasher   Aug-17-06 04:47 PM   #135 
                                            - Well  ryanus   Aug-17-06 04:56 PM   #136 
                                               - Heh  Beetwasher   Aug-17-06 06:09 PM   #147 
                                                  - He was saying that people will simply violate the Constitution  FiveGoodMen   Aug-17-06 07:33 PM   #156 
                                                  - Heh  Beetwasher   Aug-17-06 09:42 PM   #167 
                                                  - At the risk of getting my butt in a crack... :-)  krispos42   Aug-18-06 03:45 AM   #174 
  - Just to let you know,  quantessd   Aug-17-06 02:06 PM   #90 
     - Uh...  ryanus   Aug-17-06 02:32 PM   #105 
        - Welcome to DU  quantessd   Aug-17-06 04:33 PM   #128 
           - Thanks  ryanus   Aug-17-06 04:45 PM   #133 
              - Welcome!  sofa king   Aug-17-06 06:41 PM   #153 
              - Welcome to DU (nt)  stepnw1f   Aug-18-06 09:23 AM   #181 
  - Good Job everyone at DU  rabbit2484   Aug-17-06 11:47 AM   #43 
  - pushback has started, FINALLY  nadinbrzezinski   Aug-17-06 11:51 AM   #45 
  - No Shit. The Courts Did What The Democrats Were Scared To Do.  MannyGoldstein   Aug-17-06 11:57 AM   #46 
  - Yes, Virginia, there IS an independent judiciary.  bleever   Aug-17-06 12:10 PM   #48 
  - Hey!  Patsy Stone   Aug-17-06 03:03 PM   #117 
  - Every single one of you  Texas Explorer   Aug-17-06 12:12 PM   #49 
  - In response to my own post...  Texas Explorer   Aug-17-06 12:21 PM   #55 
  - Why do people continue to make the argument that are rights  OregonDem   Aug-17-06 12:14 PM   #50 
  - Bush's reply?  Horse with no Name   Aug-17-06 12:15 PM   #51 
  - Could be, but his actual response was...  Texas Explorer   Aug-17-06 12:23 PM   #56 
     - oh, and kick a whole bunch of folks off the minimum wage guarantee  librechik   Aug-17-06 12:54 PM   #74 
  - WooHoo!  MATTMAN   Aug-17-06 12:15 PM   #52 
  - Remember we are talking about WARRANTLESS wiretapping  El Fuego   Aug-17-06 12:17 PM   #53 
  - Right, like Feingold said Sunday, there's NO REASON they  johnaries   Aug-17-06 12:33 PM   #64 
  - The wheeles of justice ,,, exceedingly slow, but sometimes we win one.  mom cat   Aug-17-06 12:19 PM   #54 
  - A woman judge shoved it in his face !!!!!  Az_lefty   Aug-17-06 12:25 PM   #57 
  - I have one question...  Texas Explorer   Aug-17-06 12:25 PM   #58 
  - FUCK!  Texas Explorer   Aug-17-06 12:27 PM   #59 
  - If that's the best they can do, they KNOW the judge is right. nt  blonndee   Aug-17-06 12:37 PM   #68 
  - not just any Carter appointee  yodermon   Aug-17-06 01:29 PM   #80 
  - Well, that was pretty predictable.  Raksha   Aug-17-06 05:49 PM   #145 
  - Freepers are upset that a judge stood up to fascism,  OregonDem   Aug-17-06 12:27 PM   #60 
  - FREEPERS ARE NAZI'S!!  Mr_Spock   Aug-17-06 12:36 PM   #66 
  - Glory, Glory Hallelujah!  wicket   Aug-17-06 12:28 PM   #61 
  - WhooHoo. n/t  myrna minx   Aug-17-06 12:29 PM   #62 
  - I just heard this on NPR.  Mr_Spock   Aug-17-06 12:35 PM   #65 
  - Like courts are going to stop them....  LeftHander   Aug-17-06 12:37 PM   #67 
  - Judges rule Constitution is constitutional Woohoo, whatta surprise!!!!!  confludemocrat   Aug-17-06 12:38 PM   #69 
  - WAHOO!!!!! Score one for the people!!!!!! n/t  negativenihil   Aug-17-06 12:38 PM   #71 
  - CHIMPEACH!  Octafish   Aug-17-06 12:45 PM   #72 
  - So when will we be hearing of a foiled...  negativenihil   Aug-17-06 12:58 PM   #75 
  - Can't never trust a Yale grad, can you Bushie?  Pacifist Patriot   Aug-17-06 12:59 PM   #76 
  - I think the response on FR  Heywoodj   Aug-17-06 01:08 PM   #77 
  - Today was a down day for me until now.  Freeusfromthechurch   Aug-17-06 01:09 PM   #78 
  - "I do solemnly swear.."  threadkillaz   Aug-17-06 01:26 PM   #79 
  - DIDN'T COUNT?  d---mad2   Aug-18-06 01:25 AM   #171 
  - Glenn Greewald's take on the decision can be found here  Dudley_DUright   Aug-17-06 01:31 PM   #83 
  - Bush doesn't follow the same laws as The People.  Rex   Aug-17-06 01:54 PM   #85 
  - Bush must preserve and protect and uphold the constitution - it's what  Imagevision   Aug-17-06 02:00 PM   #88 
  - Suppose he'll try to do some variation of the signing statements  Skidmore   Aug-17-06 02:03 PM   #89 
  - YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEHAWWWWWW Best News In 6 Years  ThomWV   Aug-17-06 02:08 PM   #93 
  - Busholini knew that he and NSA were violating the Law.  Disturbed   Aug-17-06 02:28 PM   #104 
  - Faux News crawler  wryter2000   Aug-17-06 02:15 PM   #95 
  - Fox News of course shows a crappy pic of Taylor n/t  krispos42   Aug-17-06 02:17 PM   #96 
  - I'll bet Cheney and his boys are working furiously to discredit the judge  young_at_heart   Aug-17-06 02:24 PM   #99 
  - They had a full smear on Rash Limbaugh  creeksneakers2   Aug-17-06 06:37 PM   #151 
  - If * doesn't stop, does that mean he is breaking the law?  Xenotime   Aug-17-06 02:25 PM   #100 
  - Jeff Toobin explained why the wiretapping would not stop -- YET.  vickitulsa   Aug-18-06 08:32 AM   #177 
     - I don't see how SCOTUS can just not take the case  Jim4Wes   Aug-18-06 08:54 AM   #180 
        - They do refuse to hear a lot of cases,  vickitulsa   Aug-18-06 09:36 AM   #182 
  - damn its good to see some payback  D23MIURG23   Aug-17-06 02:26 PM   #102 
  - Time for Rove to S M E A R this judge....5...4...3...2...  file83   Aug-17-06 02:27 PM   #103 
  - Damn activist judges!  racaulk   Aug-17-06 02:34 PM   #108 
  - This whole miserable excuse of a "Presidency"  Uncle Joe   Aug-17-06 02:37 PM   #109 
  - Freeper responses:  Popol Vuh   Aug-17-06 02:37 PM   #110 
  - Dearbornistan  Rex   Aug-17-06 02:40 PM   #111 
  - Republicans saying ruling will endanger more American lives.  Imagevision   Aug-17-06 03:37 PM   #122 
  - WTF?  racaulk   Aug-18-06 01:08 PM   #188 
  - This is the best news in a long time!  Fiendish Thingy   Aug-17-06 02:49 PM   #112 
  - This is why just ONE MORE BUSHIE JUDGE ON THE SCOTUS would be the end.  Nothing Without Hope   Aug-17-06 02:51 PM   #113 
  - The Yahoo story is being freeped...  Fiendish Thingy   Aug-17-06 02:51 PM   #114 
  - Big deal, JON BENET RAMSEY! OMG, Shiney thing!  Tom Yossarian Joad   Aug-17-06 02:54 PM   #115 
  - Judge rules what?  Blutodog   Aug-17-06 02:56 PM   #116 
  - TERRA TERRA TERRA In Virginia!!!!  dapper   Aug-17-06 04:15 PM   #126 
  - The GOP nazis are pissing their pants over this!  Independent_Liberal   Aug-17-06 04:37 PM   #129 
  - Of course the white house disagrees...surprise surprise...but  twaddler01   Aug-17-06 04:37 PM   #130 
  - kick  countryjake   Aug-17-06 05:14 PM   #138 
  - John Dean - where are you?  IWantAChange   Aug-17-06 05:17 PM   #139 
  - I expect a FindLaw essay from him soon, and appearances  HereSince1628   Aug-17-06 08:26 PM   #160 
  - This was one of three headlines in our evening news.  BelgianMadCow   Aug-17-06 05:26 PM   #140 
  - WARRANTLESS Wiretapping !!! NOT wiretapping itself. n/t  patricia92243   Aug-17-06 05:47 PM   #144 
  - So when the decider is convicted;  greiner3   Aug-17-06 06:08 PM   #146 
  - I Wish We Could Hear What Jonathan Turley has To Say  Dinger   Aug-17-06 06:14 PM   #148 
  - I saw Toobin on CNN responding to this, but I heard it differently.  vickitulsa   Aug-18-06 08:46 AM   #179 
  - I'm sure it'll be overturned, on some lame-ass grounds  aein   Aug-17-06 06:19 PM   #149 
  - The ACLU's standing argument is the big vulnerability...  MrCoffee   Aug-17-06 06:40 PM   #152 
  - This is a BIG WIN  Hailtothechimp   Aug-17-06 06:44 PM   #154 
  - Does that mean they can't spy on Democrats or diplomats anymore, either?  TheBorealAvenger   Aug-17-06 06:48 PM   #155 
  - TO THE HAGUE!!! TO THE HAGUE!!! TO THE HAGUE!!!  Roland99   Aug-17-06 07:36 PM   #157 
  - I weep for this justice.  BullGooseLoony   Aug-17-06 07:46 PM   #158 
  - But maybe so temporary... I don't trust the Robert's Court to let  HereSince1628   Aug-17-06 08:28 PM   #161 
  - I'm very interested in the implications. Will this stop Bush?  electron_blue   Aug-17-06 08:31 PM   #162 
  - Is he now gona break loose into bushitler gone wild?  lonestarnot   Aug-17-06 08:35 PM   #163 
  - Can we impeach now?  MadJohnShaft   Aug-17-06 08:42 PM   #164 
  - Ahhhh....(nt)  stepnw1f   Aug-17-06 09:23 PM   #166 
  - see this : Unclaimed Territory - by Glenn Greenwald  flyarm   Aug-17-06 09:51 PM   #168 
  - Can someone please explain the Specter bill regarding wiretaps?  sofedupwithbush   Aug-18-06 02:11 AM   #173 
  - tactfully fighting * here,  dweller   Aug-18-06 12:08 AM   #169 
  - Great post, kpete.  Major Hogwash   Aug-18-06 01:55 AM   #172 
  - Judge Anna Diggs Taylor deserves our thanks  what now toons   Aug-18-06 04:45 AM   #175 
  - thanks for the hat tip  kpete   Aug-18-06 08:34 AM   #178 
  - With due respect.  cool user name   Aug-18-06 09:38 AM   #183 
  - Castigating the Judge  UncleTomsEvilTwin   Aug-18-06 08:15 PM   #190 
  - Gotta love this comment from the link:  cool user name   Aug-18-06 09:47 AM   #184 
  - Another LIBBBERALL activist judge trying to change our traditions  brg5001   Aug-18-06 10:26 AM   #186 
  - Bush told to appeal - then keep it in appeals court until 2009  Imagevision   Aug-18-06 08:20 PM   #191 

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