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How many in GD dealing with severe mental illness in their home? [View All]

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 04:34 PM
Original message
Poll question: How many in GD dealing with severe mental illness in their home?
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I know that the Andrea Yates decision has profoundly affected me and I wanted to ask, who here in GD deals with severe mental illness and / or our dangerously dysfunctional system in some way?

Discovering and surviving and learning to negotiate severe mental illness in my family changed my life in a profound way -- not the least of which, it changed the way I am active in the community and in especial, in the political community.

Who else?

I can identify with Rusty Yates on any day of the week, not because of his religious beliefs or his notions of gender roles but because when I married my love, I had no clue whatsoever about the degree of his illness. And, all along the way of understanding, the medical community was no help whatsoever.

It's funny. When your spouse is suspected of mental illness, the first thing that happens is that your community urges you to leave your spouse. There is no respect for the idea of the family. The solution you are pounded with is, "get out!" -- as if that would really solve anything. If you don't abandon this person that you love because they are ill, there must be something very wrong with you.

And if you don't leave, you are punished and put down. You are called "self destructive" or a "victim" or just about anything but a family member, trying to get MEDICAL CARE for someone who needs your help.

I've been called a "self-appointed advocate" for my husand. LOL! I was only his wife. And, there seemed to be no committee anywhere interested in "appointing" an advocate for him. And, no one else lived with his illness let alone, with the failures of the medical community to address his problems no matter how easily they could be addressed.

And that, really, is the state of our mental health system. We have the best tech in the world. People like Andrea can be treated. It's not a cakewalk but with a careful team, Andrea can be treated. Most of our family members can be -- with everything from meds to behavioral therapy to all the other tools we now have.

What the f#ck good is a toolbox if it never gets opened?

It's more profitable to build prisons for our mentally ill and it may be easier to try to shame their families into submission. But I'm here to say, not so fast. We won't settle for that. We won't go quietly.

For the children


Poll result (124 votes)
I deal with severe mental illness in my home. (85 votes, 69%)Vote
I deal with severe mental illness as part of my job (16 votes, 13%)Vote
I deal with severe mental illness in my neighborhood for sure (7 votes, 6%)Vote
I never have had much contact with severe mental illness that I know of (14 votes, 11%)Vote
I don't really know what severe mental illness looks like (0 votes, 0%)Vote
I've never really thought about severe mental illness before (2 votes, 2%)Vote

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  -How many in GD dealing with severe mental illness in their home? sfexpat2000  Jul-26-06 04:34 PM   #0 
  - Do I count?  Swamp Rat   Jul-26-06 04:38 PM   #1 
  - Do you count?  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 04:45 PM   #6 
     - I don't know if he can count...  Tom Yossarian Joad   Jul-26-06 05:22 PM   #26 
        - I can't count!  lonestarnot   Jul-26-06 06:45 PM   #72 
           - And you're complaining to ME?  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 06:48 PM   #74 
              - Just joining in the counting process.  lonestarnot   Jul-26-06 07:47 PM   #105 
                 - Okay!  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 07:54 PM   #109 
                    - Count Chocula! How nice of you to join us.  lonestarnot   Jul-26-06 08:00 PM   #113 
                       - Ain't no Chocula there, bro... That's THE Count. The one & only. /nt  readmoreoften   Jul-26-06 08:25 PM   #129 
                          - Oh, I see. Well must be needing a chocolate fix to have  lonestarnot   Jul-26-06 08:36 PM   #134 
                             - Chocula's good, but he's too skinny for me.  readmoreoften   Jul-26-06 08:42 PM   #136 
                             - Nope, if it isn't chocolate, it isn't good.  lonestarnot   Jul-26-06 08:48 PM   #139 
                             - Me, first! Spare a chocolate almond torte?  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 08:43 PM   #137 
                                - mmm mmm mmmm  lonestarnot   Jul-26-06 08:49 PM   #140 
  - I'd say whether or not you should leave a mentally ill spouse depends...  SteppingRazor   Jul-26-06 04:38 PM   #2 
  - There is a difference between "getting out"  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 04:52 PM   #8 
  - good points all...  SteppingRazor   Jul-26-06 05:05 PM   #15 
  - Here's to doing what we can.  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 05:14 PM   #21 
  - You can 'get out'  bigwillq   Jul-27-06 09:09 PM   #198 
  - Mental illness  H2O Man   Jul-26-06 05:52 PM   #37 
  - Exactly. People dealing with mental illness in this country  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 06:02 PM   #47 
  - Absolutely  BoneDaddy   Jul-26-06 07:58 PM   #112 
     - I've seen no martyrs on this thread.  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 09:04 PM   #143 
  - Not in my home, but in my family.  Dora   Jul-26-06 04:39 PM   #3 
  - Pm me if you're looking for resources.  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 04:56 PM   #10 
  - I have bipolar disorder plus mental illness runs in my family.  tibbir   Jul-26-06 04:44 PM   #4 
  - There is no winning. I hope Andrea can get even a little  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 04:57 PM   #11 
  - Full disclosure: I have talked to Rusty on several occasions.  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 04:44 PM   #5 
  - Very important topic, and very well stated and thought out!  bobbolink   Jul-26-06 04:46 PM   #7 
  - We just keep doing, bobbolink, because we can  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 04:59 PM   #12 
  - Good point  Lilith Velkor   Jul-26-06 07:32 PM   #94 
  - Kick for mental health. - n/t  porphyrian   Jul-26-06 04:52 PM   #9 
  - Thank you, porphyrian.  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 05:02 PM   #14 
     - No problem at all.  porphyrian   Jul-26-06 05:13 PM   #19 
        - The first step is always a bitch.  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 05:44 PM   #34 
  - self delete  Kire   Jul-26-06 05:00 PM   #13 
  - Kick for a hard question.  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 05:11 PM   #16 
  - Yes  Mz Pip   Jul-26-06 05:12 PM   #17 
  - It can be all those things at the same time.  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 05:16 PM   #22 
  - BPD  denese   Jul-26-06 09:36 PM   #149 
  - Not in my home  MuseRider   Jul-26-06 05:12 PM   #18 
  - Here in CA, the prison lobby is the most powerful one.  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 05:18 PM   #23 
     - I live and was brought up in  MuseRider   Jul-26-06 05:56 PM   #40 
  - It would be a cool thing if we could look at this poll and see  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 05:14 PM   #20 
  - My dealings were past tense. My sister was diagnosed as  Tom Yossarian Joad   Jul-26-06 05:19 PM   #24 
  - I'm still here, and actually, really jazzed to be here. lol  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 05:28 PM   #27 
  - My best friend was struck with severe mental illness.  SmokingJacket   Jul-26-06 05:20 PM   #25 
  - Past tense - work and home  Lisa0825   Jul-26-06 05:34 PM   #28 
  - I'd like to recommend a site with many resources  w8liftinglady   Jul-26-06 05:36 PM   #29 
  - Thank you. Thank you.  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 05:39 PM   #31 
  - For the children  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 05:36 PM   #30 
  - sfexpat, Doug is lucky to have you...  TygrBright   Jul-26-06 10:00 PM   #152 
     - We are so lucky to have each other.  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 10:17 PM   #154 
  - I voted the first one as my mother is severly mentally ill  AZDemDist6   Jul-26-06 05:40 PM   #32 
  - You have to be there to be there.  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 05:42 PM   #33 
  - While I know DU polls are hardly scientific...  porphyrian   Jul-26-06 05:48 PM   #35 
  - my son  proud patriot   Jul-26-06 05:50 PM   #36 
  - me,too-  w8liftinglady   Jul-26-06 06:01 PM   #46 
  - One o mine. One beautiful one.  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 09:05 PM   #144 
  - I do, and  bicentennial_baby   Jul-26-06 05:53 PM   #38 
  - Agreement! Cool!  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 05:56 PM   #41 
     - I follow your post closely...  bicentennial_baby   Jul-26-06 05:59 PM   #44 
        - We're still here and (don't tell ANYONE)  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 06:05 PM   #48 
  - Does debilitating and intractible treatment resistant depression count?  Crunchy Frog   Jul-26-06 05:55 PM   #39 
  - Okay. Man, I hate labels.  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 05:58 PM   #43 
     - Also, now that I think of it...  Crunchy Frog   Jul-26-06 06:08 PM   #52 
        - Welcome to the club.  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 06:57 PM   #80 
  - The children of friends, two separate families  Hekate   Jul-26-06 05:58 PM   #42 
  - L.A. Co is the biggest supplier on the planet!  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 06:07 PM   #50 
  - For years I did  denese   Jul-26-06 06:01 PM   #45 
  - I haven't read you before, denese, and welcome to DU  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 06:08 PM   #51 
     - thank you  denese   Jul-26-06 07:10 PM   #84 
        - It is important that we speak up.  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 07:24 PM   #89 
  - I am a retired  H2O Man   Jul-26-06 06:05 PM   #49 
  - Hey. H2O Man -- we could have used someone like you  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 06:13 PM   #55 
     - The stories I could tell you...!  joeunderdog   Jul-26-06 08:15 PM   #121 
        - To what we can do, today  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 08:19 PM   #123 
  - K&R! THIS IS WHY I LOVE DU!  K8-EEE   Jul-26-06 06:10 PM   #53 
  - there was an infrastructure until Ronald Reagun was elected govenor  AZDemDist6   Jul-26-06 06:13 PM   #54 
  - I'm talking to Henry Waxman about L.A.  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 06:16 PM   #57 
  - Absolutely agree. This is why I love DU too.  mikelewis   Jul-26-06 06:30 PM   #66 
  - This is why I love DU, too.  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 10:03 PM   #153 
  - So stop browsing Free Republic already. See, problem solved.  Peake   Jul-26-06 06:15 PM   #56 
  - LOL!  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 06:17 PM   #58 
  - Yup, me  Lilith Velkor   Jul-26-06 06:17 PM   #59 
  - Lol!  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 06:22 PM   #62 
  - These soldiers coming back from Iraq with PTSD will present a challenge  w8liftinglady   Jul-26-06 06:18 PM   #60 
  - And, imho, that's a realistic assessment.  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 06:25 PM   #64 
     - Thanks for this thread...sometimes i feel all alone  w8liftinglady   Jul-26-06 06:34 PM   #69 
        - Shhh! Don't disclose our location.  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 06:49 PM   #75 
  - My daughter suffers from depression  DemReadingDU   Jul-26-06 06:20 PM   #61 
  - Agree. It's not a one-way ticket at all.  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 06:27 PM   # 
     - It seems highly creative people tend to suffer mental illness  DemReadingDU   Jul-26-06 06:44 PM   #71 
        - Anxiety, depression and OCD are all over my family  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 06:53 PM   #78 
        - it's a little yes and a little no  mopinko   Jul-28-06 11:58 AM   #205 
           - Interesting reading on your journals  DemReadingDU   Jul-28-06 01:30 PM   #209 
  - Struggles here too  kimpossible   Jul-26-06 06:23 PM   #63 
  - That child in your family is one lucky child.  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 06:30 PM   #67 
  - My sister is in a group home  yorkiemommie1   Jul-26-06 06:27 PM   #65 
  - And many of us know it by heart.  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 06:32 PM   #68 
     - thanks for the hug  yorkiemommie1   Jul-26-06 08:04 PM   #116 
        - I don't think the missing ever stops.  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 08:22 PM   #126 
  - I was dx'd as schizophrenic at age 19.  moc   Jul-26-06 06:41 PM   #70 
  - Hi there, moc  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 06:55 PM   #79 
  - The "whew!" side vs. the "whoa!" side, lol!  moc   Jul-26-06 07:52 PM   #108 
     - Yeah! Make it something on our "to do list".  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 09:06 PM   #145 
  - I am so happy to hear of your recovery!  etherealtruth   Jul-26-06 07:11 PM   #85 
  - Best wishes for your son!  moc   Jul-26-06 07:55 PM   #111 
  - Thanks to both moc & etherealtruth for providing hope!  8_year_nightmare   Jul-28-06 03:57 PM   #212 
  - Etherealtruth, please see post #212. :)  8_year_nightmare   Jul-28-06 03:58 PM   #213 
  - this happened  marions ghost   Jul-26-06 07:32 PM   #93 
     - The current state of mental health treatment in this country is shameful.  moc   Jul-26-06 08:01 PM   #114 
     - A good start would be chiseling away at that 8 yr average  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 08:08 PM   #119 
        - 8 years--that is absolutely absurd  marions ghost   Jul-27-06 01:54 AM   #159 
           - No, we're not there yet. Someday maybe we'll be as careful  sfexpat2000   Jul-27-06 05:30 AM   #170 
  - I haven't read all the responses but you do know  Maestro   Jul-26-06 06:46 PM   #73 
  - I agree with you 100%  w8liftinglady   Jul-26-06 06:51 PM   #76 
  - Maestro, he didn't nor could he have done that.  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 06:51 PM   #77 
     - Check your PM  Maestro   Jul-26-06 07:00 PM   #81 
        - Okay.  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 07:07 PM   #82 
  - Thanks, DUers. You are one amazing bunch of people.  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 07:10 PM   #83 
  - What is your husband's mental illness?  Megahurtz   Jul-26-06 07:12 PM   #86 
  - My family deals with it as I am biploar II.  GreenPartyVoter   Jul-26-06 07:14 PM   #87 
  - We *all* deal with it in some way, don't we though?  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 07:26 PM   #90 
     - True, although I go out of my way not to leave my house so ppl  GreenPartyVoter   Jul-26-06 08:07 PM   #117 
        - And there's always what we can keep on hand!  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 08:25 PM   #128 
  - There is so far to go.  bleever   Jul-26-06 07:19 PM   #88 
  - bleever. Did you see Jon Carroll's column  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 07:28 PM   #91 
     - Just dug it out and read it.  bleever   Jul-26-06 07:47 PM   #104 
        - Well, YES!  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 07:48 PM   #106 
  - Personally, professionally, in the community ...  etherealtruth   Jul-26-06 07:30 PM   #92 
  - Because the alternative would be?  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 07:34 PM   #95 
     - The depths of despair hold very little appeal  etherealtruth   Jul-26-06 07:37 PM   #97 
  - Anyway........  Megahurtz   Jul-26-06 07:35 PM   #96 
  - I hope you have the good care and support you need.  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 07:43 PM   #100 
  - We need mental health parity  OzarkDem   Jul-26-06 07:41 PM   #98 
  - That is a huge problem ...  etherealtruth   Jul-26-06 07:43 PM   #101 
  - Meds can work with skillful monitoring.  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 07:44 PM   #102 
  - Many psych meds have horrific side effects  etherealtruth   Jul-26-06 07:49 PM   #107 
     - You bet. No disagreement from me. Not at all. n/t  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 07:55 PM   #110 
  - Yes, yes, yes! Posted the same thing above...nt  moc   Jul-26-06 08:03 PM   #115 
  - George W. Bush is on my television, does that count as mental  smirkymonkey   Jul-26-06 07:41 PM   #99 
  - TURN IT OFF!  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 07:45 PM   #103 
  - I heard such a sad observation from one of the commentators on the AY case  moc   Jul-26-06 08:07 PM   #118 
  - I know. There is no "winning" on this one.  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 08:11 PM   #120 
  - I had a schizophrenic housemate who killed himself.  NNadir   Jul-26-06 08:18 PM   #122 
  - I'm sorry you both went through that.  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 08:21 PM   #125 
     - I agree that we can do better with health care, especially mental health  NNadir   Jul-26-06 08:31 PM   #132 
        - Yes. Hopefully, at least in her case, the question is settled.  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 08:33 PM   #133 
           - And thank you for loving your husband.  NNadir   Jul-26-06 08:41 PM   #135 
              - It's the best thing I've ever done or hope to do.  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 08:44 PM   #138 
  - Depression, and an Autistic brother  DireStrike   Jul-26-06 08:20 PM   #124 
  - Distributing the stress just so we can manage anything  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 08:27 PM   #130 
  - Major Major Major mental illness in my family.  readmoreoften   Jul-26-06 08:23 PM   #127 
  - "Baby, it's all right"  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 08:29 PM   #131 
     - The worst part is that my dad was right. Just 20 years too soon.  readmoreoften   Jul-26-06 08:55 PM   #141 
        - "My life is for itself and not for spectacle."  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 08:57 PM   #142 
  - My mom has been severely mentally ill for 31 years. After she  kestrel91316   Jul-26-06 09:08 PM   #146 
  - Geezus. Let's see if we can raise a good enough ruckus  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 09:13 PM   #147 
  - DUers, wouldja look at the poll results and check out  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 09:19 PM   #148 
  - Again, thanks for creating an opportunity to talk about it.  porphyrian   Jul-26-06 09:42 PM   #150 
     - Shall we dance!?  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 09:53 PM   #151 
  - in the sad majority here, past and presently-  Bluerthanblue   Jul-26-06 10:53 PM   #155 
  - Peace to you, Blu. It's a beautiful day.  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 11:00 PM   #156 
     - thanks for the hug, and  Bluerthanblue   Jul-27-06 01:15 PM   #187 
  - kick for the brave community types here at DU  sfexpat2000   Jul-26-06 11:34 PM   #157 
  - Mental Illness still carries a significant stigma in our society  BuffyTheFundieSlayer   Jul-27-06 12:13 AM   #158 
  - Hey, Buffy. I remember that NAMI used to have a project  sfexpat2000   Jul-27-06 05:04 AM   #164 
  - The program still exists  BuffyTheFundieSlayer   Jul-27-06 05:07 AM   #166 
     - Cool!  sfexpat2000   Jul-27-06 05:10 AM   #168 
  - What can you do for someone who won't get help?  zanne   Jul-28-06 06:03 PM   #218 
     - It's just a part of the illness sometimes, not to be able to  sfexpat2000   Jul-28-06 10:11 PM   #220 
  - I always find it really odd--  eridani   Jul-27-06 01:58 AM   #160 
  - There's a good chance she stops taking her medication.  porphyrian   Jul-27-06 11:46 AM   #180 
     - I feel very inadequate as a friend  eridani   Jul-28-06 01:37 AM   #204 
  - I just accidentally found this thread.  Erika   Jul-27-06 02:08 AM   #161 
  - WA state got mental health parity last year  eridani   Jul-27-06 02:17 AM   #162 
  - Lol! Now, THAT'S funny.  sfexpat2000   Jul-27-06 05:06 AM   #165 
  - I was diagnosed with severe OCD  WernhamHogg   Jul-27-06 02:54 AM   #163 
  - Oh no.  sfexpat2000   Jul-27-06 05:09 AM   #167 
  - Majority of my cheap labor hourly co-workers vote republican..  B Calm   Jul-27-06 05:25 AM   #169 
  - A condition which someday no doubt will make it into the DSM  sfexpat2000   Jul-27-06 05:32 AM   #171 
     - I shouldn't laugh...  Karenina   Jul-27-06 01:11 PM   #186 
        - Laughing is a good thing, Karenina!  sfexpat2000   Jul-27-06 01:37 PM   #188 
           - Na Du...  Karenina   Jul-27-06 08:58 PM   #196 
  - I did growing up with a very depressed mother and abusive father  DemExpat   Jul-27-06 08:26 AM   #172 
  - Hey, DemEx!  sfexpat2000   Jul-27-06 09:27 AM   #173 
  - We will never get mental health parity until  antfarm   Jul-27-06 09:49 AM   #174 
  - Define Severe  ProfessorGAC   Jul-27-06 09:53 AM   #175 
  - Really good question. I suppose I mean, mental illness that  sfexpat2000   Jul-27-06 12:10 PM   #182 
  - btdt, and I disagree with you  electron_blue   Jul-27-06 09:58 AM   #176 
  - Leaving improved your situation and your child's. That's great.  sfexpat2000   Jul-27-06 12:06 PM   #181 
  - got a bp kid. sometimes moms carry as much stigma as  mopinko   Jul-27-06 11:18 AM   #177 
  - mopinko  sfexpat2000   Jul-27-06 12:11 PM   #183 
  - Last week  tavalon   Jul-27-06 11:24 AM   #178 
  - There IS next to no "system". Thoughts and wishes to you  sfexpat2000   Jul-27-06 12:13 PM   #184 
  - me  kineneb   Jul-27-06 11:37 AM   #179 
  - I'll take it!  sfexpat2000   Jul-27-06 12:15 PM   #185 
  - Yes.  MamaBear   Jul-27-06 01:55 PM   #189 
  - You raise a really good point. When you're with someone  sfexpat2000   Jul-27-06 02:03 PM   #190 
     - A caring professional in your life can be a great support.  MamaBear   Jul-27-06 02:16 PM   #191 
        - Thank you very much.  sfexpat2000   Jul-27-06 02:25 PM   #192 
  - FYI: DU has a wonderful Mental Health Forum. Link:  sfexpat2000   Jul-27-06 02:31 PM   #193 
  - I'm surprised to see over 70% severe mental illness identified in the home  Ron_Green   Jul-27-06 02:37 PM   #194 
  - Doesn't. But 60% (iirc) have some form of contact.  sfexpat2000   Jul-27-06 02:40 PM   #195 
     - Not to be intellectually elitist, but there is also the possibility...  porphyrian   Jul-28-06 12:11 PM   #208 
        - If I'm translating right, because DUers are more compassionate  sfexpat2000   Jul-28-06 03:58 PM   #214 
  - He should've have taken the children  bigwillq   Jul-27-06 09:06 PM   #197 
  - I can't imagine what it must be like to have an opportunity  sfexpat2000   Jul-27-06 09:13 PM   #199 
  - It's a really sad situation  bigwillq   Jul-27-06 09:18 PM   #201 
     - It's hard to negotiate, that balance of support and self  sfexpat2000   Jul-27-06 09:22 PM   #202 
  - maybe you do not realize, but  mopinko   Jul-28-06 12:04 PM   #207 
  - Father is severe bi polar  SammyBlue   Jul-27-06 09:16 PM   #200 
  - Hi there, SammyBlue.  sfexpat2000   Jul-27-06 09:24 PM   #203 
  - In family, not in house  yurbud   Jul-28-06 11:59 AM   #206 
  - Ah -- I didn't put up that category, really. Oops! n/t  sfexpat2000   Jul-28-06 02:16 PM   #210 
  - I saw your post the day you posted, sfexpat, & recommended this.  8_year_nightmare   Jul-28-06 03:32 PM   #211 
     - Hi there, 8_year_nightmare.  sfexpat2000   Jul-28-06 04:11 PM   #215 
        - Yes, you are an angel.  8_year_nightmare   Jul-28-06 05:20 PM   #216 
           - See you there, then.  sfexpat2000   Jul-28-06 05:33 PM   #217 
           - ditto those wings. nt  mopinko   Jul-28-06 10:11 PM   #219 

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