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Reply #72: Yep, keep it open! I think we're looking at Bushite/PNAC-Plan B: [View All]

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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 06:59 PM
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72. Yep, keep it open! I think we're looking at Bushite/PNAC-Plan B:
get Israel to do it.

Very important to discuss this openly, and understand it. Saw a poll today here that 84% of the American people oppose U.S. participation in a widened Mideast war. With that level of opposition to Bush junta foreign policy--and opposition also from Europe, Russia and China--how can they get the PNAC agenda of invading and occupying all Mideast countries and controlling their oil fields accomplished? Answer: Plan B. Get Israel to kick it off (with a wholly insane bombing of Beirut, and who knows what next?), then, in the chaos, manufacture, or take advantage of, some "Gulf of Tonkin"-type incident to justify protecting "U.S. interests" or military groups/installations. Bang, we're in! And Bush doesn't have to justify it--he just escalates and escalates.

I think it's very important to understand the power situation between the Bush junta and the Israeli leadership. The Bush junta has all of the power to fund or not fund Israeli defense and aggression, and, further, without Bushite support, Israel would be very isolated right now. It has almost no other support in the world. Israel's current war actions could not be taking place without full Bush junta support, and, although Israeli leadership is certainly gung-ho in carrying out the PNAC scenario (and has made a "pact with the Devil" (the Bush junta), as far as I'm concerned), I wonder about Israel as a country and its people. Are they as powerless as we are, to determine government policy and set a course that is in their best interest?

I think behind it all are war profiteers (oil giants, arms manufacturers, military contractors). And the politicians are just their tools. The war profiteers and their puppets in our governments are driving both countries (in the case of the U.S., almost entirely against the will of its people, and in the case of Israel, I'm not sure--but suspect the same) into a conflagration that could literally end the world. (Read Carl Sagan's "The Cold and the Dark," on the impact to our atmosphere of even a limited nuclear exchange).

They both seem out of control, and mad (insane type mad)--these two governments, Israel more understandably than our own. (Ours is mad with greed.) But in truth, they are following an agenda (PNAC). The madness part (besides slaughtering innocents and breaking international laws) is that it's a plan that could easily escalate into all out war, with unknown consequences--the least of which may be blowback on our civilian populations. I don't see any of this in any way making Israel "safer"--nor us. It's a power game that we, the people, have no say in.

But I think it's VERY important to how who's in charge--and I don't think it's Israel (despite their actions). Ask yourself this: If Israel did not exist, and the Israel lobby did not exist, would the Bush Cartel still be after the Mideast oil fields? I think there is no question that the answer is yes. In that case, what is Israel except a pawn in their game plan--one that they would abandon in a minute, if it suited them, just as they abandoned poor blacks in New Orleans to rot and die. The Bush Cartel's real buds are the Saudi sultans and the bin Ladens, not Israel. I think the Israeli leaders have made an extremely unfortunate and dangerous choice of allies.

So I think in the matter of condemnation for war crimes, and the critical need of their removal from power, the Bush junta comes first. They are the most culpable and they are our responsibility.

We have almost no chance of removing the Bush junta from power, given the control that Bushite corporations now have over our election results (brought about by the "Help America Vote Act" coup, engineered by Tom Delay, Bob Ney and Christopher Dodd--which resulted in the 2002-2004 nationwide conversion to electronic voting, whereby all votes are "counted" with TRADE SECRET, PROPRIETARY programming code, owned and entirely controlled by corporations with close ties to the Bush junta, and with virtually no audit/recount controls.)

Our first step toward removing the Bush junta must be restoring transparent elections. Difficult job. My proposal for the '06 elections is massive Absent Ballot voting--a citizen boycott of the rigged election machinery. AB voting is not safe, but it IS a PROTEST against the machines. If it gets big enough (it's up to 50% in Los Angeles), it would made all these shiny, new, election theft machines obsolete, and throw corrupt election officials into a panic. What good is all this vote rigging equipment, if no one will use it? Then we start reforming the election system. (It's kind of like how the Montgomery bus boycott worked to end segregation--except that, in this case, we MUST vote--but not on these machines.)

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  -Should we return discussion of the Mideast crisis to the I/P forum? Skinner  Jul-20-06 05:45 PM   #0 
  - The issue is central to US foreign policy  burythehatchet   Jul-20-06 05:46 PM   #1 
  - Second that. (nt)  magellan   Jul-20-06 05:50 PM   #6 
  - I third that! Perhaps with more consolidation of duplicate or related  tnlefty   Jul-20-06 06:08 PM   #27 
  - Correct. It's also Israel/ Lebanon/ Hezbollah/ US/ etc. -- NOT just I/P.  TahitiNut   Jul-20-06 06:33 PM   #52 
  - Exactly.  Sapphocrat   Jul-20-06 07:03 PM   #73 
  - I'd like to third/fourth/etc that question, about the kid gloves. NT  darkmaestro019   Jul-20-06 07:19 PM   #80 
  - Agreed. n/t  Poll_Blind   Jul-20-06 10:25 PM   #120 
  - Agreed.  Mr_Jefferson_24   Jul-21-06 01:33 PM   #147 
  - The same arguments are being replayed over and over again, so yes. n/t  LoZoccolo   Jul-20-06 05:48 PM   #2 
  - the same arguments on any other hot issue are replayed  GreenArrow   Jul-21-06 07:23 AM   #144 
  - I vote to keep the discussion here.  ulysses   Jul-20-06 05:50 PM   #3 
  - I voted to keep it in GD  blonndee   Jul-20-06 05:50 PM   #4 
  - I believe news stories s/b allowed in LBN since the conflict is current  Robbien   Jul-20-06 05:50 PM   #5 
  - Imho, the current situation has many far-reaching implications  scarletwoman   Jul-20-06 05:50 PM   #7 
  - and this may lead to a world war.  antifaschits   Jul-20-06 06:27 PM   #44 
  - I would say give it a few more days....  kentuck   Jul-20-06 05:51 PM   #8 
  - I voted yes (nt)  DanCa   Jul-20-06 05:52 PM   #9 
  - I don't understand why this particular subject  annces8   Jul-20-06 05:52 PM   #10 
  - Agreed whole-heartedly. n/t  laura888   Jul-20-06 06:54 PM   #70 
  - Keep it in GD  malaise   Jul-20-06 05:52 PM   #11 
  - I think the I/P discussion works better...  Scurrilous   Jul-20-06 05:54 PM   #12 
  - .  blonndee   Jul-20-06 05:56 PM   #13 
  - This is a tough one  Lone_Star_Dem   Jul-20-06 05:56 PM   #14 
  - no, it is the most important issue right now  jsamuel   Jul-20-06 05:57 PM   #15 
  - While the MSM and THE WORLD deal with this...we need OPEN FORUMS  KoKo01   Jul-20-06 05:57 PM   #16 
  - Please keep it in GD. It's vital to talk about this.  chimpymustgo   Jul-20-06 06:03 PM   #22 
  - Keep in GD. To much going on over there right now.  Little Star   Jul-20-06 06:00 PM   #17 
  - YES. Move it out of here.  in_cog_ni_to   Jul-20-06 06:02 PM   #18 
  - It's a "World Crisis" should we ignore what CNN and MSNBC/FAUX are  KoKo01   Jul-20-06 06:16 PM   #34 
     - He asked a question, I gave my opinion. n/t  in_cog_ni_to   Jul-20-06 06:18 PM   #37 
        - Okay...but then where do you stand on "Free Speach and Book Burning"  KoKo01   Jul-20-06 06:23 PM   #41 
           - This issue is a tad different than Free speech and book burning.  in_cog_ni_to   Jul-20-06 06:38 PM   #57 
              - OMG...the "DU...Israeli/Palestinian Forum" is a place like "Gun Dungeon"  KoKo01   Jul-20-06 06:46 PM   #60 
              - boasting?  in_cog_ni_to   Jul-20-06 06:50 PM   #64 
                 - I'm sorry if you were offended............  KoKo01   Jul-20-06 07:04 PM   #74 
                    - Now it's "boating?" not "boasting?"  in_cog_ni_to   Jul-20-06 07:15 PM   #77 
                       - Oh shit! I'm posting while cooking and you get "Off" on me for missing an  KoKo01   Jul-20-06 08:02 PM   #94 
                       - LOL  Truthiness Inspector   Jul-20-06 08:09 PM   #96 
                          - Exactly ...why not have a "heads on discussion" considering that Lebanon  KoKo01   Jul-20-06 08:25 PM   #97 
                             - Well  Truthiness Inspector   Jul-20-06 08:35 PM   #102 
                                - I'm not trying to mess with "Skinner's Poll" either...but he didn't say to  KoKo01   Jul-20-06 09:04 PM   #110 
              - But maybe some of us, me in particular, need to understand why the  tnlefty   Jul-20-06 08:01 PM   #93 
  - No.  H2O Man   Jul-20-06 06:02 PM   #19 
  - I agree H2O Man, If Israel gets out of Lebanon and a cease fire ensues  IChing   Jul-20-06 06:17 PM   #35 
  - Condi's WISH is for nothing more than a "Cease Fire" to pull her and her  KoKo01   Jul-20-06 07:12 PM   #76 
  - agree, the 'lowpoints' in the discussion should not  G_j   Jul-21-06 01:44 PM   #148 
  - I think that the rules are too tight - in some ways in the I/P forum.  bloom   Jul-20-06 06:02 PM   #20 
  - I'd pretty much second all of bloom's points  muriel_volestrangler   Jul-20-06 06:30 PM   #49 
  - I also think it should stay here for the time being until hopefully  babylonsister   Jul-20-06 06:02 PM   #21 
  - GD for awhile until we learn how this is going to affect us  mmonk   Jul-20-06 06:05 PM   #23 
  - I'd like it moved out of GD. nt  DeepModem Mom   Jul-20-06 06:06 PM   #24 
  - Ontology of framing  sweetheart   Jul-20-06 06:07 PM   #25 
  - No way  alcibiades_mystery   Jul-20-06 06:08 PM   #26 
  - Keep it in GD  kpete   Jul-20-06 06:09 PM   #28 
  - Absolutely agree with you. n/t  chill_wind   Jul-21-06 12:59 AM   #132 
  - I Don't Like When Posts Get Moved To I/P & Then LockedThere  K8-EEE   Jul-20-06 06:10 PM   #29 
  - exactly. it gets moved to I/P then once there, there is a rule  jonnyblitz   Jul-20-06 11:29 PM   #126 
  - Absolutely not. It's cowardly to hide it away.  Zhade   Jul-20-06 06:11 PM   #30 
  - The fighting in LEBANON has NOTHING to do with PALESTINE  MADem   Jul-20-06 06:13 PM   #31 
  - All the fighting in the ME has SOMETHING to do with Palestine.  6000eliot   Jul-20-06 06:21 PM   #40 
     - IRAN called the shots on this Lebanon evolution, but I take your point  MADem   Jul-20-06 06:30 PM   #47 
        - Can you actually point me to any evidence that Iran micro-  High Plains   Jul-20-06 07:10 PM   #75 
           - And only that PRECISE level of micromanagement will satisfy you?  MADem   Jul-21-06 01:40 AM   #133 
  - We can't agree to disagree about what is essentially a deal breaker  Ignoramus   Jul-20-06 06:14 PM   #32 
  - I voted to keep it in GD, with the exception of some deliberate, imo  Spazito   Jul-20-06 06:14 PM   #33 
  - I would like to see the threads on the current ME conflict remain  Midlodemocrat   Jul-20-06 06:17 PM   #36 
  - I was going to vote yes  ismnotwasm   Jul-20-06 06:19 PM   #38 
  - Move it to I/P.  Behind the Aegis   Jul-20-06 06:20 PM   #39 
  - You know...haven't we gotten past point of "Semite/Anti-Semite? Could  KoKo01   Jul-20-06 06:30 PM   #48 
  - this is not a discussion thread.  Behind the Aegis   Jul-20-06 06:34 PM   #53 
     - yes you are right.....maybe you should take  MassDemm   Jul-20-06 06:35 PM   #55 
        - no kidding....i guess he can discuss but nobody else can  jonnyblitz   Jul-21-06 04:37 AM   #136 
  - That forum is not conducive, you cannot even post a picture there!!!  MADem   Jul-20-06 06:34 PM   # 
  - See who supports the I/P Forum system?  norml   Jul-21-06 05:21 AM   #139 
     - Excellent observation. Sunshine is disinfectant.  chimpymustgo   Jul-21-06 06:38 AM   #140 
  - Move it - except for LBN stories that qualify  robbedvoter   Jul-20-06 06:26 PM   #42 
  - Generally, I agree with moving it to I/P which is a room that I don't  I_Make_Mistakes   Jul-20-06 06:26 PM   #43 
  - Your post belies it's true intent which is FEEDOM OF DISCUSSION while  KoKo01   Jul-20-06 06:38 PM   #56 
  - I think a lot of people don't go to the I/P forum.  Lars39   Jul-20-06 06:49 PM   #62 
  - I vote no  Marie26   Jul-20-06 06:28 PM   #45 
  - Ditto. n/t  LeahD   Jul-21-06 12:39 AM   #131 
  - Israel/Lebanon/Hezbollah  sandnsea   Jul-20-06 06:29 PM   #46 
  - dialog, we NEED dialog  knowbody0   Jul-20-06 06:30 PM   #50 
  - No. Please, no no no. This subject is CENTRAL to policy discussion.  Just Me   Jul-20-06 06:31 PM   #51 
  - To I/P if a post disintegrates to the same old argument.  Canuckistanian   Jul-20-06 06:34 PM   #54 
  - There's an idea  Lone_Star_Dem   Jul-20-06 06:45 PM   #59 
     - And somebody would be angry with the decision  Canuckistanian   Jul-20-06 06:52 PM   #66 
  - I don't think you can keep it there, Skinner. Its on everyone's minds  ComerPerro   Jul-20-06 06:39 PM   #58 
  - I vote keep it in GD for now.  cat_girl25   Jul-20-06 06:48 PM   #61 
  - It's a "safe place" and causes "no harm to anyone" so...why not? n/t  KoKo01   Jul-20-06 06:49 PM   #63 
  - Keep it in GD and add in 9/11 too. n/t  reprehensor   Jul-20-06 06:51 PM   #65 
  - Keep it in GD, maybe GDME? Mods are doing good, thanks  uppityperson   Jul-20-06 06:52 PM   #67 
  - it is important news- it shouldn't be hidden away-  Bluerthanblue   Jul-20-06 06:52 PM   #68 
  - It's too important right now to keep it confined to the  mantis49   Jul-20-06 06:53 PM   #69 
  - I'm in favor of keeping it in GD for right now.  Crunchy Frog   Jul-20-06 06:59 PM   #71 
  - Yep, keep it open! I think we're looking at Bushite/PNAC-Plan B:  Peace Patriot   Jul-20-06 06:59 PM   #72 
  - Sorry to be so rambling, but I wanted to make the point that the current  Peace Patriot   Jul-20-06 07:36 PM   #87 
  - Wow, Peace Patriot. You should post this as a separate thread. PNAC  chimpymustgo   Jul-20-06 07:52 PM   #90 
  - Actually, I think we should be staying out of Israel's business...  AntiFascist   Jul-20-06 09:14 PM   #112 
  - "Poll and NOT the Discussion" wil decide the DU ISSUE...Hope all  KoKo01   Jul-20-06 07:16 PM   #78 
  - tired of flamey threads in GD?  nashville_brook   Jul-20-06 07:19 PM   #79 
  - I do wish there weren't quite so many of them here  conflictgirl   Jul-20-06 07:26 PM   #81 
  - Ummmmm.... ask anyone on the street and they will say....  laura888   Jul-20-06 07:35 PM   #85 
  - I respectfully disagree  conflictgirl   Jul-20-06 07:43 PM   #89 
  - Holy crap! There are about 30 threads out of 78 on the front page of GD  conflictgirl   Jul-20-06 07:35 PM   #86 
  - I think this is a result of the topic having been  burythehatchet   Jul-20-06 08:48 PM   #107 
  - The excitement of saying what was forbidden will die down  norml   Jul-21-06 02:12 PM   #149 
  - Why don't we change one of the GD forums to specifically ME-stuff for now?  liberalpragmatist   Jul-20-06 07:28 PM   #82 
  - I have learned over the years to trust your judgment on this stuff  NNN0LHI   Jul-20-06 07:33 PM   #83 
  - I for one cannot take the fighting over there, let alone here. PLease...  ourbluenation   Jul-20-06 07:34 PM   #84 
  - no, I/P mods are not able to allow the level of discussion per se...  bridgit   Jul-20-06 07:41 PM   #88 
  - 2nd that opinion  NuttyFluffers   Jul-20-06 10:09 PM   #117 
     - there it is, cheers friend...  bridgit   Jul-20-06 10:31 PM   #121 
  - Maybe make one GD for it and the other exclude it. Like w/ Plame.n/t  Dark   Jul-20-06 08:00 PM   #91 
  - That's what I was thinking. n/t  CabalPowered   Jul-24-06 02:13 PM   #152 
  - while there's a shooting war, it should be in GD IMO n/t  AZDemDist6   Jul-20-06 08:00 PM   #92 
  - kick  newyawker99   Jul-20-06 08:08 PM   #95 
  - Do what you think is best, just don't take away the HIDE THREAD feature  SheWhoMustBeObeyed   Jul-20-06 08:26 PM   #98 
  - no...  Blue_Tires   Jul-20-06 08:27 PM   #99 
  - Make a NEW I/L forum with the SAME rules as GD.  in_cog_ni_to   Jul-20-06 08:28 PM   #100 
  - For the time being, leave it in GD  Jack Rabbit   Jul-20-06 08:31 PM   #101 
  - I haven't seen stuff like that...and I'm here most all the time..Maybe it  KoKo01   Jul-20-06 08:36 PM   #103 
  - might also consider a foreign policy forum  burythehatchet   Jul-20-06 08:46 PM   #104 
  - This issue is going to have an effect on the elections this fall  liberal N proud   Jul-20-06 08:47 PM   #105 
  - could be a "tipping point" on many issues....An "issue for Fall"  KoKo01   Jul-20-06 09:00 PM   #109 
  - How about on GD  mzteris   Jul-20-06 08:47 PM   #106 
  - Its what's happening in the world today  Jacobin   Jul-20-06 08:56 PM   #108 
  - The conflict in the ME is the major news event at the moment  DoYouEverWonder   Jul-20-06 09:07 PM   #111 
  - What is the difference?  CuteNFuzzy   Jul-20-06 09:17 PM   #113 
  - I think it would be consistant with DU's policies.  LincolnMcGrath   Jul-20-06 10:02 PM   #114 
  - Move discussion to I/P, but allow posts in LBN  JackNewtown   Jul-20-06 10:05 PM   #115 
  - No!  Cleita   Jul-20-06 10:05 PM   #116 
  - Current activities should be noted and discussed.  PassingFair   Jul-20-06 10:09 PM   #118 
  - How about limiting the NUMBER of threads on the same topic to  Jazz2006   Jul-20-06 10:21 PM   #119 
  - Is it possible to just move "some" threads to I/P?  ConsAreLiars   Jul-20-06 10:33 PM   #122 
  - Hey Skinner, can we start a Lieberman forum too  LynneSin   Jul-20-06 10:35 PM   #123 
  - Everything has been hashed out.  rucky   Jul-20-06 10:36 PM   #124 
  - it's one of the most important issues of the day  stranger81   Jul-20-06 10:53 PM   #125 
  - I believe that as long as there is an active  Maestro   Jul-20-06 11:34 PM   #127 
  - kick  Rex   Jul-21-06 12:18 AM   #128 
  - while I see why you keep it in a forum, i dont see how you can right now  LSK   Jul-21-06 12:20 AM   #129 
  - I think this is just too big and too current for now anyway  Douglas Carpenter   Jul-21-06 12:31 AM   #130 
  - I'd say keep it while it's front-page news  Dead_Parrot   Jul-21-06 01:50 AM   #134 
  - I voted for keeping it in GD, but with a few conditions  me b zola   Jul-21-06 03:43 AM   #135 
  - The debate is of general interest, and the I/P forum is to restrictive  rman   Jul-21-06 04:40 AM   #137 
  - You can't oppose PNAC, without running into AIPAC.  norml   Jul-21-06 04:48 AM   #138 
  - Skinner, YES move it back because some of us are...........  Minnesota Libra   Jul-21-06 06:51 AM   #141 
  - I understand your concern, but I don't see how you can avoid it  Jersey Devil   Jul-21-06 07:08 AM   #142 
  - no, keep it here  GreenArrow   Jul-21-06 07:20 AM   #143 
  - It should be up to you mods  MrWiggles   Jul-21-06 07:24 AM   #145 
  - What about...  blueraven95   Jul-21-06 01:08 PM   #146 
  - I said yes because even level headed folks become ignorant fools  izzybeans   Jul-21-06 02:36 PM   #150 
  - YES!!!  quantessd   Jul-24-06 02:12 PM   #151 
  - Please no.  Ignoramus   Jul-24-06 02:18 PM   #153 
  - here we go again.  quantessd   Jul-24-06 02:31 PM   #154 
  - me to  zippy890   Jul-24-06 02:34 PM   #155 
  - Good point. n/t  Poll_Blind   Jul-24-06 03:47 PM   #156 
  - At this point I don't know what to think  cracksquirrel   Jul-24-06 03:51 PM   #157 

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