You are viewing an obsolete version of the DU website which is no longer supported by the Administrators. Visit The New DU.
Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Reply #56: all of human social life is assigned gender, it's hard to separate [View All]

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU
NuttyFluffers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #47
56. all of human social life is assigned gender, it's hard to separate
Edited on Mon Jul-10-06 07:37 PM by NuttyFluffers
you are trying to find a biology vs. social division in this, and that just won't happen. there's a reason why that whole nature vs. nurture argument has been tossed out, we are too far ingrained and intermixed that we cannot completely say "this is purely (this)." basically, these "preconceived notions" have been given to you even before you were aware of it. in fact, there's probably many preconceived notions still floating around in you that you haven't been forced to come face-to-face with.

just because you could not cognate with the appropriate adult definitions conceptions of gender and sex doesn't mean you weren't already being manipulated by their influence by society (or nature, btw). infancy and childhood doesn't exist in a bubble, and your awareness of them is inconsequential for them to leave an effect on you. that's where you are making the mistake. in fact, the best way to manipulate someone is by their unconscious "consent" -- make it seem normal, natural, and as they grow older, their own formulated idea. since you apparently had no "conflicts" with the biases being instilled you were often blissfully unaware, and all the more easily controlled by the conditioning. at most, any minor gender bending exhibited might have been noted, commented on, received and critiqued by you, and then possibly ignored. but even though you did not think of it as an adult, naturally, it will have left a mark on you -- you just cannot see it yet because you weren't breaking enough of the world's rules.

but think of this: all of modern western society, which was strictly defined in gender and only recently becoming so open about variance, has condoned, if not mandated cruelty and abuse to those who openly transcend sexual and gender norms. biology itself, with its day-to-day reinforcement of sexual difference (try to take a piss and then forget that there's a sexual difference in our species, i dare you ;) ), goes about its course with its determined structure. both nature and nurture exhibit strong reinforcement of definition that sex=gender (edit: as dimly understood in our species) -- and you have young children, many thinking they are completely alone in the world because no one is there to offer them hope and acceptance of their difference, still, against the entire world, insist: "no. you are wrong. you are all wrong. the me inside, my spirit, my ego, my identity, whatever, ME, i know who I AM, and all of you, every one of you, is wrong. your entire culture, everyone who claims to love this shell of me, even nature down to my very own body, you are all wrong -- the real me is inside!"

it is a profound display of self-identity over all, just about a miracle of the human spirit. to seemingly defy both nature and nurture, and insist, against all the forces that comprise your world and upbringing, that you are real, normal, and not a mistake. that everything else is in err in judging you without your input. it is a level of personal awareness most people never achieve in their lifetimes -- because they aren't cornered into it.

so many have been given twice the gift of acceptance through conformity, yet barely realize it. one set is the conformity to society, the other is the conformity to biology, and it is the biological gift we so easily gloss over. so what if a few of you understand what it's like to gender bend a bit as a child, albeit unconsciously. when you can speak that truth in flesh that you cannot recognize as yours, then speak to the transsexual. then you will finally know that you are not your body, a mere pawn of flesh to the propagation of nature, just as you may know that you are not a mere pawn of society, a functionary enslaved to society's norms.

and that, perhaps, is the scariest and most confusing thing to people about transsexuals -- the truth that you are not your body. that you are you, somewhere unknown where decision making and identity is made, and nothing, no power on this earth, is going to steal your sense of self for obedience and comfort. that's profound, and frightening; it speaks to a power of defiance and resilience that's humbling.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
  -Five-year-old South Florida transgender boy will enter school as a girl RagingInMiami  Jul-10-06 01:10 AM   #0 
  - I'm cool as long as "Pat" is cool with it.  countmyvote4real   Jul-10-06 01:18 AM   #1 
  - I'm sure "Pat" will cope with it much better than if she was forced to be  haruka3_2000   Jul-10-06 05:05 PM   #41 
  - I'm glad that "Pat's" parents and school administrators are sufficiently..  Kutjara   Jul-10-06 01:37 AM   #2 
  - "dysphoria" is a bit misleading, although the policy seems enlightened.  ConsAreLiars   Jul-10-06 01:38 AM   #3 
  - Wow someone who gets it, yay!  readmoreoften   Jul-10-06 05:08 AM   #14 
  - Ummmm I think you're thinking of Intersexuals  Cronus Protagonist   Jul-10-06 08:02 AM   #28 
     - either way, dysphoria is not a good word for it.  idgiehkt   Jul-10-06 05:09 PM   #43 
     - My TG friend sends me many articles on the subject  Cronus Protagonist   Jul-11-06 02:17 PM   #114 
     - You are quite right.  ConsAreLiars   Jul-10-06 05:17 PM   #46 
  - Broward county is a beautiful blue island here in south florida  don954   Jul-10-06 02:43 AM   #4 
  - Amazing  BuffyTheFundieSlayer   Jul-10-06 03:32 AM   #5 
  - I expect to get flamed but I really can't understand this.  saracat   Jul-10-06 03:44 AM   #6 
  - I 'm with you on this sara.  SensibleAmerican   Jul-10-06 03:55 AM   #7 
  - Inform yourself... take an hour or so and UNDERSTAND  alittlelark   Jul-11-06 02:17 AM   #80 
  - I'm sorry, I'm too tired of explaining this over and over again.  readmoreoften   Jul-10-06 03:56 AM   #8 
  - Sorry, better links  readmoreoften   Jul-10-06 03:59 AM   #9 
  - It isn't about hormone shots. It is about believing you are other  saracat   Jul-10-06 04:05 AM   #10 
     - Better links. And you have a lot to read there.  readmoreoften   Jul-10-06 04:11 AM   #11 
     - I have no "scorn" or "dislike" of transgendered people!  saracat   Jul-10-06 12:09 PM   #33 
        - Hormones can do a lot. But it depends on which ones.  readmoreoften   Jul-10-06 06:57 PM   #50 
        - You've already made a judgment whether you see it or not  UncleSepp   Jul-10-06 08:56 PM   #59 
           - This must be Mercury in retrograde. I clearly stated I didn't understand!  saracat   Jul-11-06 12:53 AM   #77 
              - This is a deeply felt matter for many. So don't be put off by  ConsAreLiars   Jul-11-06 01:14 AM   #78 
                 - This was a great explanation! Thank you for  saracat   Jul-11-06 02:04 AM   #79 
                 - Glad I was able to help.  ConsAreLiars   Jul-11-06 02:23 AM   #81 
                 - I'm Stuck  Dunedain   Jul-11-06 03:18 AM   #83 
                    - Good comment. I think of it as "the map doesn't match the road."  readmoreoften   Jul-11-06 04:00 AM   #84 
                       - Thank you n/t  Dunedain   Jul-11-06 12:09 PM   #110 
     - How are they way too young to know what they are?  LostinVA   Jul-10-06 07:32 AM   #24 
     - At five, I didn't care.  Clark2008   Jul-10-06 01:11 PM   #37 
     - You DID know -- you knew if you were a boy or a girl  LostinVA   Jul-10-06 01:22 PM   #38 
     - At five, I hated "girl" stuff and liked "boy" stuff but...  haruka3_2000   Jul-10-06 05:09 PM   #42 
     - sexuality has nothing to do with gender  marvio   Jul-13-06 01:51 PM   #119 
     - When I was that age, I wanted to be a boy  HeeBGBz   Jul-11-06 07:26 AM   #93 
     - Well, I'm hung like a horse, does that count?  Cronus Protagonist   Jul-10-06 08:05 AM   #29 
     - I have concerns about parents assigning a non-biological gender at age 5  lumberjack_jeff   Jul-10-06 10:52 PM   #73 
        - So then, who gets to make the decision about how a 5 year old dresses?  readmoreoften   Jul-10-06 11:40 PM   #75 
           - Worst that can happen? I dunno...  lumberjack_jeff   Jul-11-06 10:03 AM   #105 
  - People have the genitals of one gender but actually ARE the other  LostinVA   Jul-10-06 07:30 AM   #23 
  - do you want to understand the condition?  idgiehkt   Jul-10-06 05:11 PM   #44 
  - the weight of scientific evidence reveals biologic basis  marvio   Jul-13-06 01:38 PM   #118 
  - serious question here...  Maine-ah   Jul-10-06 04:57 AM   #12 
  - Yes, see the movie Ma Vie En Rose for a lovely illustration.  readmoreoften   Jul-10-06 05:04 AM   #13 
  - Ma Vie en Rose is an EXCELLENT film......  KzooDem   Jul-10-06 09:22 PM   #63 
     - His match is SO my girlfriend!  readmoreoften   Jul-10-06 09:43 PM   #65 
  - That's my question too n/t  malaise   Jul-10-06 08:09 AM   #30 
  - How can they determine he thinks he is a female at age 5?  liberal N proud   Jul-10-06 05:37 AM   #15 
  - They can determine she thinks she's female from what she says.  readmoreoften   Jul-10-06 05:46 AM   #16 
  - It was just an abstract question from an uninformed opinion  liberal N proud   Jul-10-06 05:55 AM   #17 
  - Sorry for the attack!  readmoreoften   Jul-10-06 06:25 AM   #18 
     - In some native cultures,  ayeshahaqqiqa   Jul-10-06 06:56 AM   #21 
     - "just child"  sandnsea   Jul-10-06 06:58 AM   #22 
     - I have gender questions about my daughter, now 46  Disorganized   Jul-10-06 09:45 AM   #31 
        - They are called "normal" in my book.  readmoreoften   Jul-10-06 07:18 PM   #54 
           - Normal?! There aren't nearly enough girls like you! So rare...  kapkao   Jul-11-06 05:46 AM   #88 
           - That's so cool!  quantessd   Jul-12-06 02:12 AM   #117 
           - How about my 11 year old?  jeanarrett   Jul-13-06 02:22 PM   #120 
  - "Boys clothes"  Branjor   Jul-10-06 06:33 AM   #19 
  - Oh yeah? Clothes are clothes? Ever go in a department store?  readmoreoften   Jul-10-06 07:03 PM   #51 
     - *  Branjor   Jul-10-06 10:10 PM   #68 
  - I think we need threads like this  pecwae   Jul-10-06 06:43 AM   #20 
  - Great post n/t  LostinVA   Jul-10-06 07:37 AM   #27 
  - The life she wants to live?  theboss   Jul-11-06 09:05 AM   #104 
  - We know a male child, now a teen, who, from the time he was an infant  radwriter0555   Jul-10-06 07:32 AM   #25 
  - It has nothing to do with sexuality!  LostinVA   Jul-10-06 07:36 AM   #26 
  - Sure, I "knew" I was a girl...  Branjor   Jul-10-06 10:00 AM   #32 
  - You don't get it n/t  LostinVA   Jul-10-06 12:25 PM   #35 
  - I don't get it either.  quantessd   Jul-10-06 09:03 PM   #61 
  - No you knew you were a girl because you are a girl.  haruka3_2000   Jul-10-06 05:13 PM   #45 
     - B*llsh*t...  Branjor   Jul-10-06 05:27 PM   #47 
     - all of human social life is assigned gender, it's hard to separate  NuttyFluffers   Jul-10-06 07:30 PM   #56 
        - The preconceived notions  Branjor   Jul-10-06 09:02 PM   #60 
           - It does trouble the pure constructionist view of gender.  readmoreoften   Jul-10-06 09:39 PM   #64 
           - Not all trans people fall into gender binaries.  haruka3_2000   Jul-11-06 08:36 AM   #97 
              - This triggers my bs detector....  Branjor   Jul-11-06 10:16 PM   #115 
     - Thanks, Haruka  LostinVA   Jul-10-06 06:29 PM   #48 
        - No problem, but apparently my answer is bullshit.  haruka3_2000   Jul-10-06 07:07 PM   #52 
           - What the hell do YOU know, anyway.... you're a lesbian  LostinVA   Jul-11-06 06:47 AM   #89 
              - I am cute.  haruka3_2000   Jul-11-06 07:28 AM   #94 
                 - I am only five hours away, but you have a partner  LostinVA   Jul-11-06 07:43 AM   #95 
  - And yet Boylan struggled with trying to be a male.  HereSince1628   Jul-10-06 07:30 PM   #57 
     - You're correct re: Jenny Boylan  LostinVA   Jul-11-06 06:53 AM   #90 
  - This isn't a matter of sexuality  LeftyMom   Jul-10-06 12:24 PM   #34 
     - Thank you -- I said that up thread  LostinVA   Jul-10-06 12:31 PM   #36 
     - I understand perfectly well....  Branjor   Jul-10-06 04:55 PM   #39 
     - No, gender is not masculinity or femininity . .  msmcghee   Jul-10-06 07:46 PM   #58 
        - Wrong...  Branjor   Jul-10-06 09:22 PM   #62 
        - Yet when you walk down the street no one mistakes you for male.  readmoreoften   Jul-10-06 09:50 PM   #67 
           - How do you know  Branjor   Jul-10-06 10:18 PM   #69 
              - I dont... that's why I asked. Has it happened recently?  readmoreoften   Jul-10-06 10:25 PM   #70 
                 - They do if I dress a certain way...n/t  Branjor   Jul-10-06 10:32 PM   #71 
                 - Interesting. It's never happened to me.  readmoreoften   Jul-10-06 11:33 PM   #74 
                 - self delete...n/t  Branjor   Jul-10-06 10:32 PM   #72 
        - This Is What Is Puzzling to Me, But I Think It's Me  REP   Jul-11-06 04:21 AM   #85 
     - Same here....  Branjor   Jul-10-06 09:46 PM   #66 
     - yes, it's another form of excessive individuality gone berserk. (nt)  kapkao   Jul-11-06 05:28 AM   #87 
  - edited: (RTFA)  Guy Fawkes   Jul-10-06 05:02 PM   #40 
  - Brave Parents! Moral Parents! Loving Parents.  David Zephyr   Jul-10-06 06:52 PM   #49 
  - Well this kid's life is going to be absolute hell.  MrSlayer   Jul-10-06 07:11 PM   #53 
  - Eh. She's five years old.  Bornaginhooligan   Jul-10-06 07:21 PM   #55 
  - Her life would be worse if she was forced to live a lie  LostinVA   Jul-11-06 06:59 AM   #91 
  - Isnt that a little early to make that determination?  jerry611   Jul-10-06 11:41 PM   #76 
  - Did you read the article? I think it's pretty clear if you do.  readmoreoften   Jul-11-06 02:52 AM   #82 
  - I didn't know individualism was this melodramatic. Stuck in the 70s, jah?  kapkao   Jul-11-06 05:25 AM   #86 
  - So all transfolk enjoy being in the spotlight to an unhealthy degree?  haruka3_2000   Jul-11-06 08:45 AM   #98 
     - Agreed n/t  LostinVA   Jul-11-06 11:58 AM   #108 
  - "private matter between the parents, school administrators and the child"  lostnfound   Jul-11-06 07:12 AM   #92 
  - How can a five year old possibly have this level of self-awareness?  theboss   Jul-11-06 07:46 AM   #96 
  - Some three year olds can communicate quite well.  haruka3_2000   Jul-11-06 08:46 AM   #99 
     - When I was five, I thought I was a puppy at times  theboss   Jul-11-06 09:00 AM   #103 
        - You were making believe you were a puppy  LostinVA   Jul-11-06 11:59 AM   #109 
  - After reading replies I've decded the headline is misleading  slackmaster   Jul-11-06 08:47 AM   #100 
  - Yes, except the media is rarely so enlightened.  haruka3_2000   Jul-11-06 08:49 AM   #101 
     - They should read this thread  slackmaster   Jul-11-06 08:50 AM   #102 
        - Thank you for being open-minded.  haruka3_2000   Jul-11-06 02:11 PM   #112 
           - Thanks for your patience  slackmaster   Jul-12-06 02:05 AM   #116 
  - What happens at puberty?  never cry wolf   Jul-11-06 11:29 AM   #106 
  - We had an MTF woman young a few classes ahead of me at school  LeftyMom   Jul-11-06 11:45 AM   #107 
  - I know a friend of a friend who started on testosterone when he hit  haruka3_2000   Jul-11-06 02:15 PM   #113 
  - Another question: what happens in gym class in fifth grade?  theboss   Jul-11-06 01:56 PM   #111 
 

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC