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Reply #21: Much of this was dealt with in the '90s. [View All]

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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Much of this was dealt with in the '90s.
Some of Clinton's proposals were based on this research. It hasn't been refuted, just condemned.

If you look at education, crime, family structure, out-of-wedlock births, so on and so forth, you can find other neighborhoods that show nearly all the same evidence of 'racism'. Including all-white neighborhoods, and all-Latino neighborhoods. You find the same pattern of racist oppression and institutional racism, but 'race' isn't there in some cases. The communities are frequently small, but their very existence is a problem for 'racism is the main problem' argument. The reasons for the existence of porportionally many more, and much larger, black communities that are truly dysfunctional lie, ultimately, in the history of racism in the US. But the problem continues to be disproportionately, but not uniquely, a black one; saying this is so because of racism needs evidence. The same solutions tried on some black communities have been tried in white and Latino communities, with the same results: persistent intergenerational poverty, unemployment, crime rates, and all the same accompanying problems. So black and white communities *can* have pretty much the same problems. The black communities are worse in some respects: *that* difference is due to racism. But positing two completely different causations for the overlapping conditions requires evidence, and that evidence just hasn't been forthcoming. And yes, it's been looked for. Extensively. It's not easy for a researcher to say 'remove racism, and you're still going to have most of the same problems.' Everybody likes what appear to be simple solutions. The result is that much of the evidence for a racism-based account has, in fact, been shown to be derivative, dependent on other variables.

When all is said and done, the research is decried as blaming the victim. It's not blaming the victim at all; it merely uses many of the same words. It's basically saying that personal and family traits that we usually assume are volitional interlock in a way that is very hard for the individual to overcome, and are very easy to pass on to the next generation. Individual traits can be easily overcome, but the person usually relapses. The complex of traits *can* (rarely) be overcome without intervention, but that doesn't mean 'overcoming' through sheer force of will can ever be the norm. For blacks, for whites, or for Latinos. So just discussing the problem is seen as racist.

This doesn't mean racism *isn't* a problem. It is. One. It just means that the most egregious examples of racism are simply the imputing of causation to a mere correlation, when analyses of variance have shown that racism isn't the single most crucial factor. Escaping from persistent poverty is complicated by racism, so it's marginally harder for blacks to escape than whites or even Latinos. But the implication is that disposing of racism entirely won't address many of the biggest problems.

It can all be analysed in terms of class, but that analysis requires redefining 'class' in a way most wouldn't accept. It's not 'poor' or 'worker', but a class composed of a bunch of different factors, with income or occupation being just one. It draws lines where classical class-theory says no lines can be drawn, and improperly reverses the dependent/independent relationship between variables.

The usual course of action is to assume that racism is the biggest (independent) variable (that correlation must equal causation); the research must be denied as unacceptable.
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  -Is racism a driving force behind foreign policy? sweetheart  Jun-03-06 08:46 AM   #0 
  - Nope, it's about money and power.  justice1   Jun-03-06 08:52 AM   #1 
  - You are damn right it is. Both of you: Keep the money and power away  cantstandbush   Jun-03-06 08:54 AM   #2 
  - no this is  Botany   Jun-03-06 08:59 AM   #3 
  - No, not as a primary force.  Eugene   Jun-03-06 09:14 AM   #4 
  - Not even close  Solo_in_MD   Jun-03-06 09:42 AM   #5 
  - You make a good point.  TWiley   Jun-04-06 12:24 PM   #41 
  - It seems more of an effect, a justification, than a cause.  bemildred   Jun-03-06 09:49 AM   #6 
  - Racism has nothing to do with it...  jerry611   Jun-03-06 09:52 AM   #7 
  - It is a result of divide-and-conquer strategy,  rman   Jun-03-06 10:13 AM   #8 
  - Racism is a TOOL (a toxic weapon) used by tyrants  TahitiNut   Jun-03-06 10:15 AM   #9 
  - Racism and prejudice is not limited to the white and powerful  Solo_in_MD   Jun-04-06 02:46 PM   #43 
     - Those it infects are its victims, too.  TahitiNut   Jun-04-06 02:55 PM   #46 
  - We do seem to find it easier to bomb brown people. nt  sutz12   Jun-03-06 10:17 AM   #10 
  - Yes and no  Asgaya Dihi   Jun-03-06 10:23 AM   #11 
  - Perhaps its because of the drugs war  sweetheart   Jun-03-06 11:04 AM   #14 
     - No argument here  Asgaya Dihi   Jun-03-06 11:11 AM   #15 
  - No. It's about class, not race.  sparosnare   Jun-03-06 10:26 AM   #12 
  - in a plutocracy, class is income  sweetheart   Jun-03-06 08:36 PM   #32 
  - It seems that other than the Revolutionary War, the 1812 War,  Cleita   Jun-03-06 10:43 AM   #13 
  - Spanish-American war  igil   Jun-03-06 11:47 AM   #17 
     - Korea was a choice  sweetheart   Jun-03-06 12:21 PM   #19 
     - You seem to be very knowledgable about this. Maybe you  Cleita   Jun-03-06 01:14 PM   #27 
  - I think that 'institutional'  igil   Jun-03-06 11:32 AM   #16 
  - Another variable to consider  Asgaya Dihi   Jun-03-06 11:50 AM   #18 
     - Much of this was dealt with in the '90s.  igil   Jun-03-06 12:43 PM   #21 
        - Hmmm  Asgaya Dihi   Jun-03-06 12:55 PM   #23 
  - arrogance and greed know no race with this group.  ComerPerro   Jun-03-06 12:23 PM   #20 
  - Not to white folks....  BlooInBloo   Jun-03-06 12:45 PM   #22 
  - I like your observation  sweetheart   Jun-04-06 12:08 PM   #38 
  - Racism against blacks is like incest  951-Riverside   Jun-03-06 12:56 PM   #24 
  - Racism by blacks is also invisible  Solo_in_MD   Jun-04-06 02:47 PM   #44 
  - It happens in war but isn't the prime motivator  Terran1212   Jun-03-06 12:57 PM   #25 
  - Racism is the tool that the Rulers use to distract and divide their  greyhound1966   Jun-03-06 01:08 PM   #26 
  - not a reason -- but a tactic  Douglas Carpenter   Jun-03-06 01:15 PM   #28 
  - I think racism plays a part but...  Giant Robot   Jun-03-06 01:27 PM   #29 
  - THe definition of class changes with borders  sweetheart   Jun-04-06 11:56 AM   #37 
  - money (but not for us)  yurbud   Jun-03-06 01:29 PM   #30 
  - No, the oil industry is the driving force behind foreign policy.  El Fuego   Jun-03-06 01:31 PM   #31 
  - Arms industry?  sweetheart   Jun-03-06 09:48 PM   #33 
     - Yes, that too!  El Fuego   Jun-04-06 11:03 AM   #34 
  - Yes foreign policy has always been driven  malaise   Jun-04-06 11:07 AM   #35 
  - it is i think far less complex than that...  bridgit   Jun-04-06 11:41 AM   #36 
  - Is it really?  sweetheart   Jun-04-06 02:33 PM   #42 
     - sadly, prejudice is not color blind, if while seen as a two way street...  bridgit   Jun-04-06 03:17 PM   #49 
        - So, a racist foreign policy is ok  sweetheart   Jun-05-06 09:05 AM   #50 
  - I would say it's more of an ethnic thing  bloom   Jun-04-06 12:10 PM   #39 
  - Yes, absolutely.  TWiley   Jun-04-06 12:16 PM   #40 
  - It's always the selling point to the people, for sure. Leaders want $$.  jazzjunkysue   Jun-04-06 02:55 PM   #45 
  - Yes.  ellisonz   Jun-04-06 03:01 PM   #47 
  - Its all about mostly white businessmen  K-W   Jun-04-06 03:03 PM   #48 

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