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Reply #128: a lot of people are seeing gray [View All]

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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-26-05 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #121
128. a lot of people are seeing gray
Well, they are imposing their own grays on a clearcut situation and rationalizing
away the objections to the situation in doing so.

To imagine that Diebold is like Uncle Jim and he's okay and the kids love him is not
justified. Diebold is like an unknown stranger that has without our bidding or
informed consent insinuated himself in, and taken custody of, the process.

That the machines CAN be hacked raised alarms with some people; others let "'Can be
hacked' does not mean 'was hacked.' Where's your proof?" justify their complacency.

Proof is beside the point. There isn't going to be any proof that the machines were
hacked, because they are designed to be proofless. They are like mute retarded kids
who can't tell you if they were molested or not. My analogy is meant to make the
point that kidnapping the votes is wrong on its face; it's mistaken to make the issue
stand or fall on whether we can get proof that the votes were harmed.

If anyone can think of a better analogy, I'd be grateful.






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  -HOLY MOLY! In Kerry's own words: The Diebold Machines CAN BE HACKED! helderheid  Dec-24-05 05:29 PM   #0 
  - OMFG! That's amazing!  hedda_foil   Dec-24-05 05:38 PM   #1 
  - Me too, me too!!  helderheid   Dec-24-05 05:41 PM   #2 
  - can you summarize? what did he say? Where in the program?  kansasblue   Dec-24-05 05:48 PM   #3 
  - It was near the end - Ed asked about the wiretaps and if Kerry was  helderheid   Dec-24-05 06:03 PM   #5 
  - "bugged"? as in spyed on?  hopein08   Dec-24-05 06:32 PM   #22 
  - as in spied on. Ed mentioned that many Kerry fans had contacted him  helderheid   Dec-24-05 06:38 PM   #23 
     - I am certain the Bushista used the NSA for political purposes.  mzmolly   Dec-24-05 07:39 PM   #29 
        - I'm... dreaming... of impeachment hearings...  helderheid   Dec-24-05 07:52 PM   #31 
        - Just like the hearings we had befoooortre ............  mzmolly   Dec-24-05 08:10 PM   #33 
           - LOL!  Maine Mary   Dec-24-05 11:46 PM   #51 
           - LMAO! That is GREAT Mzmolly!  helderheid   Dec-26-05 01:34 PM   #147 
              - Thanks for the inspiration.  mzmolly   Dec-26-05 05:34 PM   #159 
        - Already enough proof  PATRICK   Dec-25-05 05:44 AM   #61 
        - Already enough proof  PATRICK   Dec-25-05 05:45 AM   #62 
           - I hope your right. I wonder if the media will resent being possible  mzmolly   Dec-25-05 12:03 PM   #81 
  - Shucks John; "The Diebold Machines CAN BE HACKED!"  Imagevision   Dec-27-05 08:41 PM   #183 
  - TEXT OF KERRY INTERVEIW  kster   Dec-25-05 10:27 AM   #66 
     - thank you!  helderheid   Dec-25-05 10:48 AM   #68 
     - Your welcome  kster   Dec-26-05 01:20 AM   #118 
     - Thanks. Amazing how it's such a big deal because Kerry said it.  mtnsnake   Dec-25-05 10:57 AM   #71 
     - Pot. Kettle. Black.  LittleClarkie   Dec-26-05 01:43 AM   #120 
        - Another feeble attempt, LittleClarkie..going after me by attacking Hillary  mtnsnake   Dec-26-05 01:19 PM   #143 
           - I wonder if you really are a hillary supporter...  paulk   Dec-26-05 01:22 PM   #145 
              - I'm not as much a Hillary "supporter'" as I am a Hillary "defender"  mtnsnake   Dec-26-05 02:02 PM   #148 
                 - you don't know me  paulk   Dec-26-05 03:04 PM   #156 
                    - If you'r going to make accusations, back them up with specific examples  mtnsnake   Dec-26-05 06:18 PM   #162 
                       - If you're going to  FreedomAngel82   Dec-27-05 07:31 PM   #176 
     - nice to see senator kerry finally coming around  sweetm2475   Dec-28-05 01:49 AM   #186 
  - Wait Around a While  babsbunny   Dec-24-05 06:56 PM   #26 
  - While you're at it, do you have any more RW lies to tell us?  rockymountaindem   Dec-24-05 08:50 PM   #37 
  - OMFG Yeah! A Democratic leader actually said something!  Tim Howells   Dec-25-05 05:28 AM   #60 
  - Too late.  iconoclastNYC   Dec-24-05 05:48 PM   #4 
  - Speak for yourself. We're all adult enough to form our own  babylonsister   Dec-24-05 06:03 PM   #6 
  - If you're so adult and can form your oppinion...  iconoclastNYC   Dec-24-05 06:05 PM   #9 
  - Because you said "we"  FreedomAngel82   Dec-27-05 07:31 PM   #177 
  - Thank you. n/t  cmd   Dec-24-05 06:07 PM   #10 
  - It Is Mine!  Upfront   Dec-24-05 07:50 PM   #30 
  - I care because he is a senator and he's finally waking up (better late  helderheid   Dec-24-05 06:03 PM   #7 
  - Wrong. "Better late than never" is when it would've mattered...not AFTER  mtnsnake   Dec-25-05 11:04 AM   #72 
     - It won't affect 2004 but IT DOES EFFIN MATTER for 2006, 2008, ...  helderheid   Dec-26-05 11:13 AM   #127 
     - You're the biggest Hillary shill on the board  fujiyama   Dec-28-05 06:22 AM   #187 
  - Someone better start paying attention to this or '06 is toast for the Dems  Blue State Native   Dec-24-05 06:05 PM   #8 
  - I agree.  iconoclastNYC   Dec-24-05 06:08 PM   #11 
  - I would have thought that Sen. Kerry would have known of the problem  Blue State Native   Dec-24-05 06:20 PM   #18 
  - I don't know what took them so damned long.  helderheid   Dec-24-05 06:21 PM   #20 
  - Well we liberals tend to be complacent or trusting?  Blue State Native   Dec-24-05 10:39 PM   #46 
     - Here's why  iconoclastNYC   Dec-25-05 12:17 AM   #54 
  - Maybe a little more time will reveal that the reason Kerry is ...  Hubert Flottz   Dec-25-05 06:02 AM   #63 
  - that would be my suspicion  helderheid   Dec-25-05 10:40 AM   #67 
  - Well, now he can point to an expert opinion -  MH1   Dec-25-05 01:15 PM   #92 
  - WELL SAID!!  helderheid   Dec-25-05 01:16 PM   #93 
  - he & the rest of the dem 'leaders' should have come out on this way before  bpilgrim   Dec-25-05 10:19 PM   #110 
     - Dear Gov. Dean -- Its no longer baseball  bpilgrim   Dec-25-05 10:23 PM   #111 
  - That could be it  FreedomAngel82   Dec-27-05 07:36 PM   #179 
  - You can't FIND a handful of lawmakers TODAY who even SEE the problem.  blm   Dec-26-05 12:54 PM   #139 
  - Too late for 2004, definitely.  Raksha   Dec-25-05 01:12 AM   #58 
  - Well, it's being talked about by the respected and elected so I am pleased  helderheid   Dec-24-05 06:14 PM   #15 
     - I am glad it's being addressed by our party leaders, don't get me wrong.  Blue State Native   Dec-24-05 06:16 PM   #16 
     - I totally agree.  helderheid   Dec-24-05 06:20 PM   #19 
     - Yep  FreedomAngel82   Dec-27-05 07:40 PM   #181 
  - You assumed "we" don't care. I'm  babylonsister   Dec-24-05 06:08 PM   #12 
  - I asked why we should care.  iconoclastNYC   Dec-24-05 06:13 PM   #13 
     - Then you should have stated, "YOU don't care."  babylonsister   Dec-24-05 09:23 PM   #42 
     - See reply 35  LittleClarkie   Dec-24-05 09:28 PM   #43 
     - Because WE can't find many lawmakers who BELIEVE in machine fraud.  blm   Dec-26-05 12:56 PM   #140 
  - You claimed to be speaking for the nation. And that's naughty.  KCabotDullesMarxIII   Dec-24-05 06:14 PM   #14 
  - He is, however, still a Senator  LittleClarkie   Dec-24-05 08:41 PM   #35 
  - That's your opinion. People have said that for as long as Kerry's....  Media_Lies_Daily   Dec-24-05 08:55 PM   #38 
  - They didn't care what he had to say about BCCI and Iran/Contra  LittleClarkie   Dec-25-05 02:39 AM   #59 
  - If Dean BELIEVED it as an issue 1.5 yrs ago he would have told Kerry about  blm   Dec-26-05 01:27 PM   #146 
  - Gawd, is he ever  Pastiche423   Dec-24-05 06:17 PM   #17 
  - My thoughts exactly.  LWolf   Dec-24-05 07:59 PM   #32 
  - yes... FINALLY. I remember Kucinich talking about the dangers of evotes  helderheid   Dec-24-05 08:32 PM   #34 
  - Don't you think, considering the delicacy of the position he was  rzemanfl   Dec-24-05 10:15 PM   #44 
     - No.  LWolf   Dec-24-05 11:08 PM   #49 
        - Crying "foul" without proof may have poisoned the well forever  rzemanfl   Dec-24-05 11:41 PM   #50 
        - Crying "foul" without proof is done all the time in certain contexts  petgoat   Dec-25-05 12:21 PM   #82 
        - When someone is kidnapped the first thing the police do is call  ProSense   Dec-25-05 12:39 PM   #86 
        - You're missing the point. In kidnapping of a child or of  petgoat   Dec-25-05 12:43 PM   #87 
           - The DNA test is after you find the evidence (hair, finger, etc.). n/t  ProSense   Dec-25-05 12:54 PM   #89 
              - You're talking about a missing persons case.  petgoat   Dec-25-05 01:08 PM   #90 
                 - The fact that our system is not transparent is a crime in and of itself.  helderheid   Dec-25-05 01:15 PM   #91 
                    - Exactly. That is the distinction I was trying to make with the  petgoat   Dec-25-05 01:42 PM   #94 
                       - But that's not the way it came off to a lot of people.  TayTay   Dec-26-05 08:58 AM   #121 
                          - a lot of people are seeing gray  petgoat   Dec-26-05 11:14 AM   #128 
                          - Proof is beside the point?  ProSense   Dec-26-05 11:51 AM   #134 
                             - I'm sorry I'm not clear in making the distinction  petgoat   Dec-26-05 02:08 PM   #149 
                                - Negligence has to be proved (need evidence). No getting around proof. n/t  ProSense   Dec-26-05 02:14 PM   #150 
                                   - this is only true (in my opinion) if you want to prove 2004 was stolen. T  helderheid   Dec-26-05 02:17 PM   #151 
                                      - I agree! Need to address both the machine and suppression issues. n/t  ProSense   Dec-26-05 02:23 PM   #152 
                          - Excellent Points  marions ghost   Dec-27-05 07:44 PM   #182 
        - There's the rub, without proof, you can only really say we believe  rzemanfl   Dec-25-05 02:05 PM   #95 
           - without proof, you can only really say we believe  petgoat   Dec-25-05 03:49 PM   #102 
              - This is more like the parent leaving the child with a stranger at  rzemanfl   Dec-25-05 10:09 PM   #109 
                 - what choice did I have?  petgoat   Dec-26-05 11:37 AM   #131 
                    - Oh, it's worse than that here. The incompetent election official  rzemanfl   Dec-26-05 07:12 PM   #164 
        - Yes, I am.  LWolf   Dec-26-05 12:35 PM   #138 
        - how could he talk without proof?  helderheid   Dec-24-05 11:51 PM   #53 
           - Before he was even nominated;  LWolf   Dec-25-05 11:34 AM   #78 
              - I did actually hear him talk about it during one of the debates  helderheid   Dec-25-05 11:44 AM   #80 
              - they could see that train wreck coming  petgoat   Dec-25-05 12:27 PM   #83 
  - Aside from the person who is your avatar  LittleClarkie   Dec-24-05 09:22 PM   #41 
  - It may not be a matter so much of "waking up," as it is of not having a..  Peace Patriot   Dec-24-05 06:22 PM   #21 
  - Peace Patriot-- good point  FogerRox   Dec-24-05 06:38 PM   #24 
  - Bingo. Well said.  Media_Lies_Daily   Dec-24-05 08:57 PM   #39 
  - Indeed. Listening to the interview, the segue was forced  LittleClarkie   Dec-24-05 09:19 PM   #40 
  - I noticed that too! Ed didn't ask about the machines so I thought that  helderheid   Dec-24-05 10:22 PM   #45 
     - Yep, I noticed too  OnionPatch   Dec-24-05 11:00 PM   #48 
  - I think...  YvonneCa   Dec-25-05 01:07 AM   #57 
  - Getting threatened just comes with the territory in public life.  petgoat   Dec-25-05 12:37 PM   #85 
  - Omigod! Stop the presses!  SheilaT   Dec-24-05 06:51 PM   #25 
  - I've got it straight. And I'm thinking 2006 and 2008 might have a fighting  helderheid   Dec-24-05 07:22 PM   #27 
     - Giving the benefit of the doubt to Kerry, I'll suppose he's  petgoat   Dec-25-05 12:34 PM   #84 
  - It's a good thing the GOP would never take advantage of such a thing.  robbedvoter   Dec-24-05 07:32 PM   #28 
  - kick n/t  emulatorloo   Dec-24-05 08:44 PM   #36 
  - related link  gordontron   Dec-24-05 10:45 PM   #47 
  - thanks and welcome to DU!  helderheid   Dec-24-05 11:50 PM   #52 
  - Holy shit John Kerry! Why didn't you fight harder. You disappointed me  lonestarnot   Dec-25-05 12:40 AM   #55 
  - Guinness Book of World Records: "World's tallest invertibrate"  PurityOfEssence   Dec-25-05 12:45 AM   #56 
  - Playing chess in a barfight - actually, that's what Gore did in 2000  robbedvoter   Dec-25-05 09:00 AM   #64 
     - Absolutely. Ya got me there.  PurityOfEssence   Dec-26-05 02:36 PM   #154 
  - Anything can be hacked...  socialistrot   Dec-25-05 10:01 AM   #65 
  - any bets how long it will be before....  paineinthearse   Dec-25-05 10:48 AM   #69 
  - "The machines can be hacked, although I'm not saying they were, but  mtnsnake   Dec-25-05 11:08 AM   #73 
  - And if I knew then what I know now, I'd say it and have an aid retract it  robbedvoter   Dec-25-05 03:18 PM   #96 
  - Kerry made an impeachment statement last week? Are you referring to this?  ProSense   Dec-25-05 11:25 AM   #76 
  - Saying the Diebold machines can be hacked is momentous or something?  mtnsnake   Dec-25-05 10:52 AM   #70 
  - It's a BFD when a senator says it - no matter who the senator is. Hope you  helderheid   Dec-25-05 11:10 AM   #74 
  - Yeah, I read it if it's the transcript that's posted on post #66  mtnsnake   Dec-25-05 11:18 AM   #75 
  - Everything Kerry says is a BFD - unless he retracts it and then it's a  robbedvoter   Dec-25-05 03:20 PM   #97 
  - It is a huge deal  karynnj   Dec-25-05 11:49 PM   #114 
     - Thank you!!  helderheid   Dec-25-05 11:55 PM   #115 
  - Well, What the hell does he really think? One day it's this, and  BamaBecky   Dec-25-05 11:29 AM   #77 
  - Well here's the thing  ProSense   Dec-25-05 11:39 AM   #79 
  - No that's not the thing, that's just BS  BamaBecky   Dec-25-05 03:29 PM   #99 
     - I just listened to Kerry on AAR and, IMO, he has conducted himself  ProSense   Dec-25-05 03:42 PM   #101 
        - Which words? before or after the denials?  robbedvoter   Dec-25-05 03:56 PM   #103 
        - Which denials?  Inuca   Dec-25-05 04:03 PM   #104 
        - Did you listen?  ProSense   Dec-25-05 04:08 PM   #105 
        - Kerry is a former prosecuter and a Senator, not a screaming ninny on the  emulatorloo   Dec-26-05 10:18 AM   #122 
  - Your statement is so biased  karynnj   Dec-25-05 11:43 PM   #113 
     - And yours isn't? Ha! Ha! Ha!  BamaBecky   Dec-26-05 11:55 AM   #135 
        - He did no such thing.  ProSense   Dec-26-05 12:05 PM   #137 
        - I agree with that statement!  BamaBecky   Dec-26-05 05:38 PM   #160 
        - You DON'T feel it strange that MCM made NO follow up statement???  karynnj   Dec-26-05 03:41 PM   #158 
           - Oh Contraire!  BamaBecky   Dec-26-05 05:41 PM   #161 
              - I mean in his conversation with Kerry  karynnj   Dec-27-05 07:22 PM   #175 
              - About election fraud, yes  LittleClarkie   Dec-27-05 07:34 PM   #178 
  - OH MY GOD! Out of Kerry's mouth: The Hydrogen blimp - UNSAFE!  personman   Dec-25-05 12:48 PM   #88 
  - Stop the presses!  robbedvoter   Dec-25-05 03:22 PM   #98 
  - STOP THE PRESSES! Patrick Fitzgerald says Libby leaked Plames Identity  emulatorloo   Dec-26-05 10:21 AM   #123 
  - ROFL!!  AgadorSparticus   Dec-25-05 03:33 PM   #100 
  - I absolutely love your nickname! I loved the movie!  helderheid   Dec-25-05 04:26 PM   #106 
     - Thanks!! It's my go to movie when I am feeling like I need a laugh or  AgadorSparticus   Dec-25-05 09:18 PM   #107 
        - i think I need to see it again! Agador! SPARTICUS! He insists we call him  helderheid   Dec-25-05 10:27 PM   #112 
           - yes, one must have a hint of color...  AgadorSparticus   Dec-26-05 09:35 PM   #167 
           - Let them go down with the ship!  helderheid   Dec-27-05 12:00 AM   #168 
           - Let them go down with the ship!  helderheid   Dec-27-05 12:00 AM   #169 
  - You prefer NO SENATOR BELIEVE IN MACHINE FRAUD?  blm   Dec-26-05 01:07 PM   #142 
     - Everyone knows they can be hacked...  personman   Dec-28-05 07:55 AM   #188 
  - DUrs need to wake up. Kerry has been behind this conspiracy from  goforit   Dec-25-05 09:23 PM   #108 
  - proof? What are you talking about?  helderheid   Dec-25-05 11:57 PM   #116 
  - You obviously know nothing about possums.  BuyingThyme   Dec-25-05 11:59 PM   #117 
  - I disagree  LittleClarkie   Dec-26-05 01:39 AM   #119 
  - Wake up.  apple_ridge   Dec-26-05 10:41 AM   #125 
     - And despite your and all the others knowledge of this  ProSense   Dec-26-05 11:09 AM   #126 
     - You raise an important point.  petgoat   Dec-26-05 11:25 AM   #129 
     - You didn't vote? How does that help?  ProSense   Dec-26-05 11:37 AM   #130 
        - I voted on a paper absentee ballot and will continue to do so - if you  helderheid   Dec-26-05 11:39 AM   #132 
        - they fought hard to win  petgoat   Dec-26-05 11:47 AM   #133 
     - You prove it - the conviction part  BamaBecky   Dec-26-05 11:57 AM   #136 
        - National Security Archives prove it - IranContra, BCCI, CIA drugrunning  blm   Dec-26-05 02:41 PM   #155 
           - What has he done since 2004?  BamaBecky   Dec-27-05 09:25 AM   #170 
              - Where were you throughout 2005? Most people KNOW the  blm   Dec-27-05 01:05 PM   #172 
                 - well said.  helderheid   Dec-27-05 01:31 PM   #173 
     - Then name ONE LAWMAKER who knew about the machines and worked  blm   Dec-26-05 01:21 PM   #144 
     - Spineless wimp is not as heavy an accuastion as co-conspirator  LittleClarkie   Dec-27-05 02:27 PM   #174 
  - You are totally wrong on this. Absolutely incorrect .  wisteria   Dec-26-05 10:31 AM   #124 
  - HAHAHAHAHAH...only uninformed people would believe THAT horsecrap.  blm   Dec-26-05 01:04 PM   #141 
     - You sound like a rah rah rah DLC'r , are you?  goforit   Dec-26-05 02:33 PM   #153 
        - NO. And someone would have to be totally uncomprehensive of history to  blm   Dec-26-05 03:21 PM   #157 
  - has kerry come out yet and say he didnt say this?  oregonindy   Dec-26-05 06:31 PM   #163 
  - Actually he has repeated these irrgeularities  TayTay   Dec-26-05 07:25 PM   #165 
  - Actually, he said it again yesterday  globalvillage   Dec-26-05 07:28 PM   #166 
  - .  helderheid   Dec-27-05 10:28 AM   #171 
  - I'd be saying it, too!  BikeWriter   Dec-27-05 07:38 PM   #180 
  - Does it not strike anyone odd that Kerry is stating this NOW???  Imagevision   Dec-27-05 08:43 PM   #184 
  - after there is proof? No?  helderheid   Dec-31-05 12:42 AM   #189 
  - .  helderheid   Dec-28-05 12:06 AM   #185 
 

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