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Reply #31: I have problems with Feminism = Humanism [View All]

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shockra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-05 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #19
31. I have problems with Feminism = Humanism
As long as some people are considered more human than others, it's primarily going to advance the agenda of those considered most human. Since it's a manmade language humanity is defined in a patriarchal manner.

Take corporate "personhood," for the most depraved example. The "person" that a corporation is is most certainly a rich, white, heterosexual male. Could we even, for a moment, see it as a black, a woman, a poor person? That which is considered the most human reaps all the benefits and privileges that entails.

Seeing all people as equal can be a way of avoiding and respecting difference. Like when Tom Cruise mentioned to Oprah that he'd never talked about racism with his black son, because to him "all people are the same. I don't see color." I've certainly heard African-American feminists complain about this perspective as a cop-out. In order to understand another's reality, you have to see color (or whatever the difference is) in order to appreciate the other's humanity. Just saying "we're all the same" doesn't absolve anyone from the responsibility of learning about how they may contribute to many types of oppression. In fact, it's a benefit of privilege that you can say something like that and have it considered admirable. Privilege doesn't see the ways in which it's privileged, because it doesn't have to.

Liberal feminism depends on individuals to effect change and be responsible for themselves. That's a necessary step, but not enough. Radical feminism sees the context in which everything is happening (patriarchy), and how appealing to individuals's sense of fairness can only advance society so far. That's why I became a radical feminist. Liberal feminism doesn't seek to change the status quo, but rather have women be more equal to men in a system developed around males as the norm in every area.

Probably the best feminist book I've ever read is The Gender Knot by Allan Johnson, in large part because he describes the male role in feminism wonderfully. I posted about it a couple times this year in GD, as well as an excerpt.
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  -What is the role of men in feminism? trotsky  Jul-13-05 10:00 AM   #0 
  - Input of a thoughtful, open and egalitarian nature is always helpful to  efhmc   Jul-13-05 12:28 PM   #1 
  - Exactly the point I was trying to make.  trotsky   Jul-13-05 12:43 PM   #3 
  - Oops, past the editing time... please excuse the double negative. n/t  trotsky   Jul-13-05 12:42 PM   #2 
  - to shut up and listen......  Wetzelbill   Jul-13-05 04:24 PM   #4 
  - Well put, Wetzelbill  alarcoeg   Jul-14-05 04:17 PM   #8 
     - thank you and the same to you  Wetzelbill   Jul-15-05 02:21 AM   #36 
  - Here's my problem with what you've written  Eloriel   Jul-14-05 01:22 PM   #5 
  - I think he has a point...  Finder   Jul-14-05 02:14 PM   #6 
  - I think you didn't read my post  Eloriel   Jul-14-05 04:54 PM   #11 
  - I think you're distorting what I'm trying to say.  trotsky   Jul-14-05 04:00 PM   #7 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Jul-14-05 04:58 PM   #12 
  - I may be wrong but what I think she is getting at is......  Wetzelbill   Jul-15-05 01:38 AM   #34 
     - Perfectly stated. Thank you.  Eloriel   Jul-15-05 07:56 PM   #78 
        - You're welcome  Wetzelbill   Jul-15-05 09:00 PM   #83 
  - Eloriel, I respect your posts a great deal, but  alarcoeg   Jul-14-05 04:40 PM   #10 
     - Read my damn post again  Eloriel   Jul-14-05 05:00 PM   #13 
        - I read it. Did you read mine?  alarcoeg   Jul-14-05 05:03 PM   #14 
        - Yes, I read yours -- several times  Eloriel   Jul-14-05 06:05 PM   #16 
           - Eloriel, we are a group here...  Finder   Jul-14-05 06:24 PM   #17 
           - Who died and left you queen?  Eloriel   Jul-14-05 06:59 PM   #18 
              - Ouch  OldLeftieLawyer   Jul-14-05 07:11 PM   #20 
              - There is absolutely nothing in that post you're responding to about her  Eloriel   Jul-14-05 07:22 PM   #21 
                 - No, tone is all  OldLeftieLawyer   Jul-14-05 07:42 PM   #24 
                    - Tone is all - ah, but that wasn't your argument  Eloriel   Jul-14-05 08:11 PM   #26 
                       - I said "Tone is all"  OldLeftieLawyer   Jul-14-05 08:18 PM   #28 
              - I wasn't attacking you.  Finder   Jul-14-05 07:33 PM   #22 
              - Oh, Finder,  Eloriel   Jul-14-05 08:18 PM   #27 
                 - Well I have no animosity towards you...  Finder   Jul-14-05 08:41 PM   #29 
                    - In Eloriel's defense  lukasahero   Jul-15-05 07:14 AM   #38 
                       - O.M.G. Thanks for posting that  Eloriel   Jul-15-05 07:59 PM   #79 
              - Finder and Eloriel, you are my two best friends in this forum.....  Wetzelbill   Jul-15-05 02:07 AM   #35 
           - Let's see here...  alarcoeg   Jul-14-05 09:50 PM   #30 
              - Again in Eloriel's defense, I refer everyone to the rules of THIS group  lukasahero   Jul-15-05 07:47 AM   #40 
                 - This Group is being poisoned.  Ripley   Jul-15-05 08:24 AM   #42 
                 - Don't worry.  trotsky   Jul-15-05 08:38 AM   #43 
                 - I wasn't speaking of purging you.  Ripley   Jul-15-05 08:48 AM   #44 
                 - I just think there's a difference  trotsky   Jul-15-05 08:54 AM   #45 
                    - Okay.  Ripley   Jul-15-05 02:55 PM   #64 
                 - Trotsky, rather than quitting  lukasahero   Jul-15-05 09:00 AM   #47 
                    - Ah, you are so much more diplomatic than I.  Ripley   Jul-15-05 09:16 AM   #49 
                    - you didn't offend me at all  Wetzelbill   Jul-15-05 02:02 PM   #54 
                       - Okay.  Ripley   Jul-15-05 02:28 PM   #59 
                          - ok...  Wetzelbill   Jul-15-05 03:26 PM   #65 
                             - Two points.  Ripley   Jul-15-05 03:35 PM   #66 
                                - oh, no intention to tell you how to post....  Wetzelbill   Jul-15-05 03:58 PM   #69 
                                   - Just a simple suggestion.  Ripley   Jul-15-05 04:14 PM   #70 
                                      - oh sorry, I got it from a woman  Wetzelbill   Jul-15-05 04:28 PM   #71 
                    - For what it's worth  alarcoeg   Jul-15-05 02:19 PM   #58 
                       - Did you mean to reply to my post?  lukasahero   Jul-15-05 02:32 PM   #61 
                       - Lukashero  alarcoeg   Jul-15-05 05:03 PM   #73 
                          - We're cool, alarcoeg  lukasahero   Jul-15-05 09:08 PM   #84 
                             - Great!  alarcoeg   Jul-15-05 10:07 PM   #87 
                       - Okay.  Ripley   Jul-15-05 02:38 PM   #62 
                          - Ripley  alarcoeg   Jul-15-05 05:33 PM   #75 
                 - Hi Ripley....just a few things...  Wetzelbill   Jul-15-05 01:45 PM   #51 
                    - I appreciate your efforts Bill but  lukasahero   Jul-15-05 01:55 PM   #52 
                    - typo, thanks for pointing it out  Wetzelbill   Jul-15-05 02:07 PM   #55 
                       - No problem - just wanted to point it out  lukasahero   Jul-15-05 02:17 PM   #57 
                          - I should say when I say quieter...  Wetzelbill   Jul-15-05 03:35 PM   #67 
                             - We are going to be skeptical of *everyone* here for a while  lukasahero   Jul-15-05 09:13 PM   #85 
                    - It would serve you well to not trash me behind my back...  Misunderestimator   Jul-17-05 01:54 PM   #91 
                       - I wish you'd ignore that  Wetzelbill   Jul-17-05 08:07 PM   #94 
                 - An honest question  alarcoeg   Jul-15-05 08:55 AM   #46 
                    - Perhaps Wetzelbill can answer that question for you  lukasahero   Jul-15-05 09:15 AM   #48 
                    - Well....I'll try..  Wetzelbill   Jul-15-05 01:16 PM   #50 
                       - Wetzelbill  alarcoeg   Jul-15-05 02:10 PM   #56 
                          - No, posting a man's perspective AT ALL is the problem  Eloriel   Jul-15-05 07:34 PM   #77 
                             - Eloriel  alarcoeg   Jul-15-05 09:57 PM   #86 
                                - The concensus was on the mission statement.... you should read it.  Misunderestimator   Jul-17-05 01:19 PM   #90 
                                - I've read it several times  alarcoeg   Jul-17-05 07:50 PM   #93 
                                   - And if not done with sufficient civility,  Eloriel   Jul-18-05 05:42 PM   #95 
                                      - Your opinion of me is duly noted  alarcoeg   Jul-18-05 05:55 PM   #96 
                                - OK. I was wrong.  Eloriel   Jul-18-05 07:23 PM   #97 
                                   - I did not imply any ranking of oppressiom.  alarcoeg   Jul-19-05 10:42 AM   #98 
        - Sorry, Eloriel, you are the one being rude...  Finder   Jul-14-05 05:12 PM   #15 
           - Are we.... on the same side?  Misunderestimator   Jul-17-05 05:03 PM   #92 
  - I use a simple analogy  Logansquare   Jul-14-05 04:38 PM   #9 
  - you are way too smart for me  Wetzelbill   Jul-15-05 02:33 AM   #37 
     - No, I don't think the reason is primarily biological  Logansquare   Jul-15-05 02:01 PM   #53 
        - So was it sexist of him to elude to that?  Wetzelbill   Jul-15-05 02:30 PM   #60 
        - Can I interject some thoughts on this?  lukasahero   Jul-15-05 02:41 PM   #63 
        - that was my first impression....  Wetzelbill   Jul-15-05 03:46 PM   #68 
        - I am a librarian  Logansquare   Jul-15-05 04:50 PM   #72 
           - Well put  Wetzelbill   Jul-15-05 08:46 PM   #82 
        - Admitted math-phobe here  ccbombs   Jul-15-05 05:26 PM   #74 
           - Math professor here.  alarcoeg   Jul-15-05 05:55 PM   #76 
           - yeah that's a good point  Wetzelbill   Jul-15-05 08:42 PM   #81 
  - The role of men in feminism, as I see it, and ...........  OldLeftieLawyer   Jul-14-05 07:08 PM   #19 
     - Extends hand...  Finder   Jul-14-05 07:37 PM   #23 
     - Thanks for that, OLL.  trotsky   Jul-14-05 07:45 PM   #25 
     - I have problems with Feminism = Humanism  shockra   Jul-14-05 10:54 PM   #31 
     - Corporate "personhood" is a legal term  OldLeftieLawyer   Jul-14-05 11:18 PM   #32 
     - Great post!  smirkymonkey   Jul-15-05 12:04 AM   #33 
     - Yes, great points, shockra!  alarcoeg   Jul-15-05 07:29 AM   #39 
     - Bravo shockra. 'nuff said. n/t  lukasahero   Jul-15-05 08:00 AM   #41 
     - I have always been completely bumfuzzled by your ID  Eloriel   Jul-15-05 08:31 PM   #80 
     - Wow... and to think I just now read this post... after the PM I just sent  Misunderestimator   Jul-17-05 12:31 PM   #88 
     - Right, uhhuh.  Ripley   Jul-17-05 12:44 PM   #89 

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