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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-28-06 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #82
83. playing around with language
I'm going to put your post into race terms instead of gender terms here just to see where it lands me, since the I AM A MAN signs are still fresh on my brain.
I understand the problem of perspective however. Most white people do not realize when they are saying something that can be seen as racist. If one was to call Pope Benedict "Whitey", it isn't considered racist even though it is poking fun at his physical appearance. Yet if one was to call Al Sharpton "blackie", it is a racist remark. It is a double standard certainly, but one of our (collectively, both white and black) own creation. Because black people take insult as a group at the appearance of a black politician or public figure being mocked, it is racist to make fun of a black person's appearance. Because black people do not feel the same when a white person is made fun of for his appearance, making light of a white person's appearance is not racist. The perspective defines everything.

The question becomes whether or not this reaction is rooted in the relative power of the races, because people of color have less power they must band together in defense of one another, or rather because people of color occupy the lesser social position it is less acceptable to make fun of them than it is than white people. Or whether there is a more basic physiological cause. (Listed for sake of argument, I'm not advocating or defending it. I mean no offense.) Perhaps it's just tradition or upbringing.

As to changing it, you would have two basic approaches. You could make it acceptable for black people to make light of white people as well. I think we're moving in this direction currently, for better or worse. While ideologically weak and flimsy, it may be the only practical solution considering human nature. But only if you can match it with wage parity and social equality. Which we are also moving toward currently, albeit slowly.

Or you could make it unacceptable to make fun of anyone based on race specific attributes, which I postulate would include making white people take offense collectively anytime a white politician is insulted based on his physical appearance. While in theory I suppose this is possible, human nature is a bitter and ugly thing. We tear each other down based on our differences, and race is always right out there in the forefront for everyone to see. I express sincere regret at people leaving DU because they are appalled at the language used here, but if they wish to avoid any such language, they will truly be living in a very small world. For better or worse, DU is a big tent, and there are a lot of different people with a lot of different backgrounds here. All I can suggest is to not to take such comments personally, by all means inform the person stating it that it is offensive, but don't take it personally.

Lastly, as to my statement regarding the extremity of the positions here, perhaps I should rephrase it. The position of desiring equality is not extreme. Including equality in language is definitely a little off of moderate. The belief that if you're not standing up to help make it so, you oppose equality is extreme. It may not have been stated so, but that is the implication that will be read by any moderate white person on the issue.
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  -Misogyny as Male Bonding Morgana LaFey  Dec-26-06 07:05 PM   #0 
  - Oh boy, did you hit it on the head. Great subject.. K&R!  Joanne98   Dec-26-06 07:07 PM   #1 
  - See also: Elephant Day Parade by The Beat Farmers  IanDB1   Dec-26-06 07:11 PM   #2 
  - I challenge sexist posts/phrases as I find them at DU.  IndyOp   Dec-26-06 07:12 PM   #3 
  - How about this?  PSPS   Dec-26-06 07:28 PM   #4 
  - Kick  Joanne98   Dec-26-06 07:57 PM   #5 
  - As for the misogynistic posts here on DU  etherealtruth   Dec-26-06 08:17 PM   #6 
  - But the problem with that defense is this  Morgana LaFey   Dec-26-06 08:21 PM   #7 
     - I think they often do ...  etherealtruth   Dec-26-06 08:30 PM   #8 
     - Well, actually, you are denying the problem  Morgana LaFey   Dec-27-06 04:11 PM   #42 
        - What an unusual response ...  etherealtruth   Dec-28-06 06:19 AM   #87 
     - I'll ask the question of  Heywoodj   Dec-26-06 10:56 PM   #11 
        - You make my point perfectly  Morgana LaFey   Dec-27-06 04:09 PM   #41 
  - K & R...  femrap   Dec-26-06 10:01 PM   #9 
  - 'many males feel this is their constitutional right.'  realpolitik   Dec-26-06 11:56 PM   #15 
  - So, do you feel the same way about those postcards showing  Morgana LaFey   Dec-27-06 04:25 PM   #43 
  - While he is a male  realpolitik   Dec-27-06 10:51 PM   #71 
  - Most p0rn? And the rest?  femrap   Dec-27-06 09:21 PM   #66 
     - I find plenty of objectification  realpolitik   Dec-27-06 09:36 PM   #68 
     - Deleted message  Name removed   Dec-30-06 11:28 AM   #128 
  - Honestly, a few years on this board and I have come to  smirkymonkey   Mar-23-07 06:39 PM   #145 
  - Just a short question to get some persepective on your views  NobleCynic   Dec-26-06 10:34 PM   #10 
  - i rec'd this thread b/c i totally agree with the poster -- on Sex and the City...  nashville_brook   Dec-26-06 11:48 PM   #13 
     - Right, when men do it, it's disgusting chauvanism,  Dr_eldritch   Dec-27-06 12:04 AM   #16 
     - That's not what was said -- you excel at that, don't you?  Morgana LaFey   Dec-27-06 04:35 PM   #45 
     - Interesting  NobleCynic   Dec-27-06 12:24 AM   #17 
     - i'm 40, but have friends who are much younger  nashville_brook   Dec-27-06 01:19 AM   #20 
     - Clarification, please?  Orrex   Dec-27-06 11:30 AM   #27 
        - Eye of the beholder I suppose  NobleCynic   Dec-27-06 08:48 PM   #63 
     - Levy was interviewed on Fresh Air a few weeks back  Orrex   Dec-27-06 11:27 AM   #26 
     - loved her on Colbert -- will check this out! thanks!  nashville_brook   Dec-27-06 02:37 PM   #34 
     - Thanks. I imagine that covers it.  Morgana LaFey   Dec-27-06 04:31 PM   #44 
     - and, i hate to say it, but reckless sexuality can hurt women...  nashville_brook   Dec-27-06 05:16 PM   #52 
     - That's exactly it --  Morgana LaFey   Dec-27-06 05:23 PM   #54 
     - oppressed-oppressor.... white girl here... i totally GET that!  nashville_brook   Dec-27-06 05:37 PM   #55 
        - I saw an Oprah show where they were doing some relationship  Morgana LaFey   Dec-27-06 06:15 PM   #58 
     - Amen to that!  raccoon   Mar-27-07 10:00 AM   #151 
     - "IF there are women out there as shallow and superficial as I imagined,  realpolitik   Dec-28-06 08:08 PM   #99 
     - i am confused. why is there a naked female. why not a naked man.  seabeyond   Mar-23-08 08:43 PM   #170 
        - I think it's because in both cases  lwfern   Mar-24-08 02:04 AM   #171 
           - i dont agree. another thing i dont agree with is the shying from whore and slut  seabeyond   Mar-24-08 11:13 AM   #172 
              - I agree that this is how we symbolize the world  lwfern   Mar-24-08 02:38 PM   #173 
  - How disgusting this is is only magnified by the fact that  Dr_eldritch   Dec-26-06 11:47 PM   #12 
  - At least, according to Danny DeVito...  Chulanowa   Dec-26-06 11:52 PM   #14 
  - I have a hard time watching letterman nowadays  lwfern   Dec-27-06 12:47 AM   #18 
  - I watch David Letterman nearly every night he's on and I don't see how you could call him sexist  Syrinx   Dec-27-06 02:27 AM   #22 
  - Not sure why you think sexism is related to his party identity  lwfern   Dec-27-06 09:38 AM   #25 
  - of course you should be offended by sexism  Syrinx   Dec-28-06 01:05 AM   #80 
  - Picture Dave arriving on stage with the 2 floppy models fawning and falling all over him  omega minimo   Dec-27-06 01:44 PM   #33 
  - Sure, I can picture a stud-bunny show  Syrinx   Dec-28-06 01:21 AM   #81 
     - So seeing it in Black And White, Either/Or allows you to evade the actual issues.  omega minimo   Dec-28-06 02:45 AM   #86 
        - I'm not evading issues. Maybe you are inventing issues.  Syrinx   Dec-29-06 02:26 AM   #108 
  - I LOATHE Letterman  Madspirit   Apr-17-07 10:51 PM   #153 
  - You're entirely correct  Morgana LaFey   Dec-27-06 04:40 PM   #46 
  - I can't stand Letterman  Madspirit   Feb-15-07 11:57 AM   #141 
  - And women dont do this right back at men?  TheMadMonk   Dec-27-06 01:01 AM   #19 
  - your kidding about the wage part? or just making shit up because.......  bettyellen   Dec-27-06 07:13 AM   #23 
  - Legal equality. Same job = same pay. (At least here in Aust.)  TheMadMonk   Dec-27-06 03:45 PM   #37 
     - Australia is NOT the U.S.  Morgana LaFey   Dec-27-06 04:50 PM   #47 
     - You are incorrect about wage equality in Australia as well actually  NobleCynic   Dec-27-06 09:16 PM   #65 
     - the law is not the reality, in australia or here. so you are wrong and insulting to  bettyellen   Dec-28-06 09:21 PM   #101 
        - The law is a bloody good start though.  TheMadMonk   Dec-29-06 04:28 AM   #109 
        - so you want women equal, but believe theoretical equality should be enough  bettyellen   Dec-29-06 07:20 AM   #113 
        - No I believe it is a staging point in the journey towards equality.  TheMadMonk   Dec-30-06 12:29 AM   #125 
           - some idiots will not change largely because other men let them think it's okay  bettyellen   Dec-30-06 03:42 PM   #129 
        - There are a lot of problems with this post.  lwfern   Dec-29-06 09:34 AM   #117 
        - I say the law is illustrative of improvement.  TheMadMonk   Dec-30-06 02:26 AM   #126 
           - Go on, keep digging  lwfern   Dec-30-06 05:22 AM   #127 
        - demands for instant compliance  Morgana LaFey   Dec-29-06 06:22 PM   #120 
        - You know what I am really sick of? Men who invade the women's  smirkymonkey   Mar-23-07 06:49 PM   #146 
           - and if there is a post about how women discriminate against men in certain circumstances  undercutter2006   Aug-03-07 09:05 PM   #163 
              - What the fuck are you doing here on a "Women's Rights Forum"?  quantessd   Feb-23-08 12:15 AM   #167 
  - Bettyellen is right about the wages still being unequal  NobleCynic   Dec-27-06 08:51 AM   #24 
  - Good question.  twenty4blackbirds   Dec-27-06 03:34 PM   #36 
  - Tucks in bib and fronts up to a corby pie.  TheMadMonk   Dec-29-06 04:42 AM   #110 
  - "Cream my jeans"?  knitter4democracy   Dec-27-06 03:52 PM   #38 
  - I have never heard my S.O. say 'cream my jeans'  realpolitik   Dec-28-06 08:29 PM   #100 
     - That's why I said "most."  knitter4democracy   Dec-29-06 07:03 AM   #111 
  - No, the war isn't won, but the American culture has misogyny and misanthropy woven in its fabric.  necklace   Feb-17-07 01:44 PM   #142 
  - Yeah, it's a distraction from the fact De Vito looks like a fire hydrant mated with a toad  omega minimo   Dec-27-06 01:59 AM   #21 
  - K & R and...  Triana   Dec-27-06 12:16 PM   #28 
  - And I didn't even follow my own advice  Morgana LaFey   Dec-27-06 04:53 PM   #48 
  - Whereas women never objectify men  the other one   Dec-27-06 12:28 PM   #29 
  - Whereas women never objectify men  the other one   Dec-27-06 12:29 PM   #30 
  - "This thread deserves to be hijacked." Bully behavior proves the OP's point:  omega minimo   Dec-27-06 01:07 PM   #31 
  - wondering... do (we) women, look the other way because we're afraid...  nashville_brook   Dec-27-06 02:42 PM   #35 
     - well after long enough ya get tired of......  omega minimo   Dec-27-06 06:08 PM   #57 
  - I just knew that * posted here!  femrap   Dec-27-06 11:38 PM   #73 
  - Are you asking people to apologize for their Y chromosome? n/t  ElboRuum   Dec-27-06 01:24 PM   #32 
  - No.  undergroundpanther   Dec-27-06 04:01 PM   #40 
  - Yes. SILENCE CONDONES, dammit.  Morgana LaFey   Dec-27-06 05:09 PM   #50 
  - I agreed with you  undergroundpanther   Dec-27-06 08:03 PM   #60 
  - Let's make this clear.  ElboRuum   Dec-28-06 09:06 AM   #89 
     - "if you'd all just knock it off"  lukasahero   Dec-28-06 09:23 AM   #90 
     - Sure...  ElboRuum   Dec-28-06 09:26 AM   #92 
        - Didn't really bother me, no, because I am not guilty  lukasahero   Dec-28-06 10:29 AM   #93 
           - Ugh... whatever...  ElboRuum   Dec-28-06 11:15 AM   #94 
     - Christ! The problem with men is that "Its Alllllllllllllll about them"!  smirkymonkey   Mar-23-07 07:02 PM   #147 
  - Only if  Morgana LaFey   Dec-27-06 05:07 PM   #49 
     - Even if I did feel that it does give me some special right...  ElboRuum   Dec-28-06 09:25 AM   #91 
        - maybe it's not misandry, but not liking YOU, and YOUR BEHAVIOR....  bettyellen   Dec-28-06 09:40 PM   #102 
  - I wish  undergroundpanther   Dec-27-06 03:52 PM   #39 
  - Terrific rant  Morgana LaFey   Dec-27-06 05:10 PM   #51 
  - I could've been more  undergroundpanther   Dec-27-06 08:06 PM   #61 
     - Cowards, like *. nt  femrap   Dec-27-06 11:41 PM   #74 
     - Oh, honey, most of them are going to get all defensive and sexist  Morgana LaFey   Dec-28-06 11:15 PM   #103 
  - One of the guys at the high school where I work  lwfern   Dec-27-06 06:06 PM   #56 
  - The BIGGEST male privilege ...  Triana   Dec-27-06 10:17 PM   #70 
  - The BIGGEST male privilege not being aware of just how privileged they are.  quantessd   Feb-23-08 12:50 AM   #168 
  - YES! Terrific post!  Mad_Dem_X   Dec-28-06 01:58 PM   #96 
  - Six months???  bumblebee1   Aug-12-07 11:45 PM   #165 
  - Not one male who deigned to grace this thread with their presence  Morgana LaFey   Dec-27-06 05:18 PM   #53 
  - Sounds pretty regressive, don't it?  omega minimo   Dec-27-06 06:22 PM   #59 
  - Problem is they LIKE the privilege  undergroundpanther   Dec-27-06 08:20 PM   #62 
  - Be aware of when you cross the line between helping and hurting  NobleCynic   Dec-27-06 08:57 PM   #64 
  - Let me ask you this  undergroundpanther   Dec-27-06 09:30 PM   #67 
  - Venting one's anger? No problem there.  NobleCynic   Dec-27-06 10:03 PM   #69 
     - How do you normally handle sexist posts on DU?  lwfern   Dec-27-06 11:01 PM   #72 
     - You misunderstand me on several fronts  NobleCynic   Dec-28-06 12:03 AM   #76 
        - what is the "most extreme position possible" you're referring to?  lwfern   Dec-28-06 12:42 AM   #79 
           - Well put  NobleCynic   Dec-28-06 01:32 AM   #82 
           - playing around with language  lwfern   Dec-28-06 02:03 AM   #83 
           - Touche  NobleCynic   Dec-28-06 02:34 AM   #85 
              - At 3am  lwfern   Dec-28-06 11:37 AM   #95 
              - The people who get to define racism and sexism are the people  Morgana LaFey   Dec-28-06 11:59 PM   #106 
                 - The problem with treating disagreement as an attack is that it is too easy  NobleCynic   Dec-29-06 09:17 AM   #115 
                 - I don't think you made yourself unclear at all  Morgana LaFey   Dec-29-06 06:07 PM   #118 
                 - Hear, hear!  smirkymonkey   Mar-23-07 07:11 PM   #148 
           - But you know what?  Morgana LaFey   Dec-28-06 11:48 PM   #105 
              - Please don't read the worst possible intent into every word I say,  NobleCynic   Dec-29-06 08:50 AM   #114 
                 - Au contraire  Morgana LaFey   Dec-29-06 06:12 PM   #119 
           - O.M.G. BRAVO!!!!!!  lukasahero   Dec-28-06 07:40 AM   #88 
     - Here's a clue for you  Morgana LaFey   Dec-28-06 11:29 PM   #104 
  - Be aware of when you cross the line between pontificating and patronizing  omega minimo   Dec-28-06 02:05 AM   #84 
  - Having been around for awhile....  femrap   Dec-27-06 11:58 PM   #75 
  - "Supposedly, this imbalance of extreme machismo is to come to an end soon."  omega minimo   Dec-28-06 12:13 AM   #77 
     - Supposedly people are going to realize that  femrap   Dec-28-06 07:50 PM   #97 
  - Deleted sub-thread  Name removed   Dec-28-06 12:30 AM   #78 
  - That's fairly standard  MountainLaurel   Jan-06-07 05:36 PM   #139 
  - ...  sniffa   Feb-21-07 11:01 AM   #144 
  - Some sexist threads make me want to bang my head against the wall  Nikia   Dec-28-06 07:51 PM   #98 
  - Please come back and share when you can  Morgana LaFey   Dec-29-06 12:10 AM   #107 
  - Lovely double standard here.  TheMadMonk   Dec-29-06 07:16 AM   #112 
  - A peace offering, and well put.  NobleCynic   Dec-29-06 09:33 AM   #116 
  - The double standard you mention  Morgana LaFey   Dec-29-06 06:35 PM   #121 
     - Morgana, aren't you being a little harsh?  lwfern   Dec-29-06 07:31 PM   #122 
     - Yes, I do believe I was  Morgana LaFey   Dec-30-06 05:47 PM   #135 
     - Women must ignore lousy men. Good men must defend. women.  TheMadMonk   Dec-29-06 11:43 PM   #123 
        - dude, don't you get tired of digging that hole you're in?  lwfern   Dec-30-06 12:02 AM   #124 
        - gosh, your abuser friend really appreciated your help, how nice!  bettyellen   Dec-30-06 04:32 PM   #130 
        - Not unlike Ford pardoning his buddy Nixon  lwfern   Dec-30-06 05:25 PM   #131 
        - it's telling he wants an award for helping an abuser and makes excuses why it's not  bettyellen   Dec-30-06 05:33 PM   #132 
        - Astonishingly apropos  Morgana LaFey   Dec-30-06 05:43 PM   #134 
           - "paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom"  bettyellen   Dec-30-06 05:55 PM   #136 
        - quie possibly the best description of male privelege ever --  Morgana LaFey   Dec-30-06 05:34 PM   #133 
        - Truly amazing  Morgana LaFey   Dec-30-06 06:10 PM   #137 
  - Machismo as Male Bonding, Exhibit A: Street Taunts  Lydia Leftcoast   Dec-31-06 10:37 PM   #138 
  - Sure they don't.  raccoon   Mar-27-07 10:13 AM   #152 
  - I see it  Madspirit   Feb-15-07 11:50 AM   #140 
  - I hate to say it, but I actually think the Republican men in my  smirkymonkey   Mar-23-07 07:59 PM   #149 
     - funny you should say that  lwfern   Mar-23-07 11:08 PM   #150 
     - The reason ThomCat gets it  Karenina   Jun-25-07 07:27 PM   #156 
     - And we should graciously sacrifice our issues "for the good of the party"  thecatburgler   Apr-17-07 11:58 PM   #154 
        - Well, we've all heard it said before...  bliss_eternal   Apr-18-07 01:12 AM   #155 
  - i never tire of morgana threads  sniffa   Feb-21-07 10:58 AM   #143 
  - GANG RAPE n/t  Karenina   Jun-25-07 07:28 PM   #157 
  - Funny you should post that today.  lwfern   Jun-25-07 09:51 PM   #158 
     - This thread is my first foray  Karenina   Jun-26-07 06:53 AM   #159 
     - Wait'll you see this  Morgana LaFey   Jun-27-07 01:56 PM   #160 
        - Thank you.  lwfern   Jun-27-07 02:43 PM   #161 
           - It's gone now, but that first paragraph was snuff, pure and simple  Morgana LaFey   Jun-27-07 08:46 PM   #162 
           - Because we're just women. nt  Katherine Brengle   Aug-03-07 09:38 PM   #164 
  - I think I finally expressed the point I wanted to make months ago  Nikia   Sep-04-07 07:09 PM   #166 
     - ...women who they see as lower status and/or not part of their group...  quantessd   Feb-23-08 02:16 AM   #169 

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