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Reply #38: Well that's really up to you, isn't it? [View All]

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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-22-06 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. Well that's really up to you, isn't it?
"What insight might I gain, perchance?"

If you are interested in an answer to that, read #36 or the OP

"In 1990, Wellesley College professor Peggy McIntosh wrote an essay called "White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack". McIntosh observes that whites in the U.S. are "taught to see racism only in individual acts of meanness, not in invisible systems conferring dominance on my group." To illustrate these invisible systems, McIntosh wrote a list of 26 invisible privileges whites benefit from."


""Consideration" doesn't mean that I can't dispute aspects of the list."

Rather than consider the illustration of invisible system, you refute 30% of the items on the list; back to "individual acts of meanness."

"The very fact that you bristle, when I point out that some of the listed "benefits" are not as cut-and-dried as the author would have them, demonstrates that point very clearly."

The very fact that you accuse me of "bristling" when I gently pointed out the obvious, could go on the original list. How many times have women posters on DU heard that we are "angry" when we are discussing something that men don't want to hear.

"If that's the case, then the act of identifing "taking issue" as inferior to "discussing the issue" is likewise a controlling behavior. You seek, in essence, to declare certain aspects of the discussion to be off-limits, and I confess that I don't see a benefit in that, for anyone."

This sort of competitive antagonism is absurd and completely out of place here. Especially if you are as conscious as you claim to be (I give you the benefit of the doubt).

"Forgive me, but a list of 30+ "benefits" of being male is about "THEM," is it not?"

NO. "McIntosh observes that whites in the U.S. are "taught to see racism only in individual acts of meanness, not in invisible systems conferring dominance on my group." To illustrate these invisible systems, McIntosh wrote a list of 26 invisible privileges whites benefit from." That list was not "about whites.'" This list is not "about men." Accept it. :evilgrin:

"The notion that men (or a man) can't discuss "these things" except narcissistically is likewise a stereotype, in this case calculated to minimize the value of the man's opinion if it doesn't embrace the list."

Despite the benefit of the doubt, this self-obsessed attitude reinforces the stereotype. Nothing is "calculated to minimize the value of the man's opinion if it doesn't embrace the list." Jeebus, that's about you TOO! Can't you see how funny that is? :rofl:

"Embrace the list"? I chose the word "consideration" as in "consider" the examples and show "consideration" to the people living within those "invisible systems"-- and "consider" what that might be like IF IT WAS YOU.

"If I were to propose a list of 30 "benefits" of being female, would you seek out women who match to the list"

I didn't suggest you "seek out men who match to the list" -- I suggested a man who considered the list without refuting it might help you with relating to the experience which it was intended to illustrate; illustrate for those who have a hard time understanding what it's like to live life controlled by an invisible system........ who have a hard time understanding because of male privilege.

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  -The Male Privilege Checklist bloom  Nov-21-05 09:41 PM   #0 
  - ugh ugh ugh  Caoimhe   Nov-21-05 09:45 PM   #1 
  - They nauseate me as well. nt  Bassic   Mar-31-06 10:56 AM   #48 
  - So I guess you think none of those privilege applies to you.  Hello_Kitty   Oct-29-09 09:25 PM   #114 
  - Ok, so what are individual guys supposed to do about all that?  Heaven and Earth   Nov-21-05 09:49 PM   #2 
  - In my opinion  Bjornsdotter   Nov-21-05 10:00 PM   #3 
  - I asked a similar question  mzteris   Jun-27-09 11:40 AM   #95 
     - I don't believe there is such a thing as white privilege  Vincent441   Jun-27-10 01:05 PM   #119 
        - and.... ? i guess you are probably white? probably a man? n/t  Scout   Jun-28-10 12:09 PM   #120 
           - Alas poor Vincent - he disrupted poorly  lukasahero   Jun-28-10 06:50 PM   #121 
              - oh thanks. :hi: n/t  Scout   Jun-28-10 09:41 PM   #122 
  - Individual guys....  bloom   Nov-21-05 10:13 PM   #4 
     - Next time you're in a mixed discussion group  belle   Nov-21-05 10:35 PM   #6 
     - Deleted message  Name removed   Jan-15-08 12:26 PM   #87 
     - What advice I would give men? WTF!?!  Poncius   May-04-11 05:34 PM   #126 
  - the last one says it all  Skittles   Nov-21-05 10:19 PM   #5 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Nov-21-05 11:01 PM   #8 
  - you are living proof  Skittles   Nov-21-05 11:18 PM   #9 
  - Ever think that you're dealing with the wrong women?  Heddi   Nov-22-05 01:05 AM   #10 
  - I love the smell of misogyny in the morning... eom  lukasahero   Nov-22-05 08:32 AM   #12 
  - Amen! Amen! Amen! THAT says it all!  funflower   Dec-07-05 11:48 PM   #24 
  - The last one is just a dig, not an argument.  Donald Ian Rankin   Oct-10-06 07:07 AM   #59 
     - i'm sure i've received white privilage that i wasn't aware of  nashville_brook   Dec-31-06 03:27 PM   #68 
        - Well stated.  lwfern   Dec-31-06 07:24 PM   #69 
  - How about the fact that  NC_Nurse   Nov-21-05 10:36 PM   #7 
  - Student Nurse here--graduate as RN in June  Heddi   Nov-22-05 01:11 AM   #11 
  - The "caregiver" professions always get much less than the average  BuffyTheFundieSlayer   Apr-01-06 04:31 AM   #49 
     - People are so concerned about the quality of day care workers and nursing home workers,  raccoon   Jul-12-07 11:21 AM   #75 
  - Librarian here  MountainLaurel   Nov-22-05 11:33 AM   #13 
     - Not only that--in the nineteenth century, most secretaries were men,  Lydia Leftcoast   Nov-23-05 03:29 PM   #16 
        - I had heard that men were the first Typists...but  femrap   Nov-24-05 04:10 PM   #17 
           - Well, I once had a roommate who was a lecturer at the Yale Art Gallery,  Lydia Leftcoast   Nov-24-05 06:19 PM   #18 
              - There is a reason men avoid this field.  One_Life_To_Give   Dec-02-05 05:41 PM   #22 
                 - A post filled to the brim with the sexism of the era  Morgana LaFey   Dec-30-06 06:23 PM   #65 
                 - Excellent examples of how patriarchy hurts and restricts men as well as women. n/t  PanoramaIsland   Aug-03-10 02:09 PM   #123 
  - Thank you for posting this.  MountainLaurel   Nov-22-05 11:34 AM   #14 
  - The Male Gaze  omega minimo   Nov-22-05 11:46 PM   #15 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   May-04-06 11:17 PM   #50 
     - Exactly!! The Male Gaze is totally self-absorbed!!!  omega minimo   May-05-06 11:12 PM   #51 
  - As a single parent...  bigmonster   Nov-25-05 08:00 AM   #19 
  - And don't forget - all any woman really needs is a good hard  Bunny   Nov-25-05 08:43 AM   #20 
  - Hi bigmonster!!  newyawker99   Dec-04-05 11:24 AM   #23 
  - Welcome to DU, bigmonster!  funflower   Dec-07-05 11:53 PM   #25 
  - Number 11 can have sever legal implications....  AnneD   Mar-12-11 04:19 PM   #125 
  - Guess I am unaware  One_Life_To_Give   Dec-02-05 05:33 PM   #21 
  - "Why do women think that whatever they do reflects on all women?"  lukasahero   May-14-07 10:01 AM   #70 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Jan-13-06 12:54 PM   #26 
  - I am not sure about #26!  CBHagman   Jan-16-06 01:19 PM   #27 
  - Hmm. Fair Enough.  Cherry Blossom   Jan-17-06 12:10 AM   #28 
  - See #45 Male Privilege, like White Privilege, if you got it you got it  omega minimo   Jan-20-06 10:21 PM   #32 
  - I understand all that. But it is very hard to do anything about it.  Kipling   Jan-18-06 02:36 PM   #29 
  - #14 #15 #20 #35  omega minimo   Jan-20-06 11:01 PM   #33 
  - Yes, you are not only prejudiced, you've been actively discriminating  Morgana LaFey   Dec-30-06 07:28 PM   #66 
  - The guy who originally wrote this list  Ally McLesbian   Jan-18-06 04:57 PM   #30 
  - He didn't write "Ten Reasons Same-Sex Marriage Is Wrong" and anyway...  bloom   Jan-23-06 07:38 PM   #44 
     - AH...  Ally McLesbian   Jan-30-06 11:18 AM   #47 
  - A few responses  Orrex   Jan-20-06 11:40 AM   #31 
  - Try to find a man who gains insight from the list without refuting it  omega minimo   Jan-20-06 11:04 PM   #34 
  - I should just accept it as true, without consideration? No thanks.  Orrex   Jan-21-06 08:21 AM   #35 
  - So you didn't even try to find one, did you? INSIGHT I said insight  omega minimo   Jan-21-06 12:21 PM   #36 
     - What insight might I gain, perchance?  Orrex   Jan-21-06 01:55 PM   #37 
     - Well that's really up to you, isn't it?  omega minimo   Jan-22-06 06:12 PM   #38 
     - I imagine that this is the crux of our disagreement  Orrex   Jan-22-06 11:28 PM   #40 
        - Insight, consideration & "rtbackatcha tone" are in the eye of the beholder  omega minimo   Jan-23-06 02:42 PM   #41 
           - The limitations of the medium  Orrex   Jan-23-06 03:43 PM   #42 
              - Orrex will you please do us the great honor  omega minimo   Jan-23-06 05:10 PM   #43 
                 - Self delete because I PM'd you instead...  Orrex   Jan-23-06 09:58 PM   #45 
                    - empathy  omega minimo   Jan-24-06 12:04 AM   #46 
     - I think your points were valid and deserve discussion. n/t  Finder   Jan-22-06 08:04 PM   #39 
     - Hang on a second.  Donald Ian Rankin   Oct-10-06 07:02 AM   #58 
  - Will  Cell 17B   Sep-15-06 02:56 PM   #53 
  - Answer to #43  Lydia Leftcoast   Oct-06-06 01:39 PM   #55 
     - Yep  Roxi   Oct-10-06 06:53 PM   #60 
  - denial  Cell 17B   Sep-14-06 01:02 PM   #52 
  - A few thoughts:  Donald Ian Rankin   Oct-04-06 08:21 PM   #54 
  - As I said in post #55, #43 has happened to me several times  Lydia Leftcoast   Oct-06-06 01:44 PM   #56 
  - #43 has happened to me several times as well.  lwfern   Oct-07-06 12:57 AM   #57 
     - Making a point about #43, happens to me all the time  lukasahero   Oct-11-06 07:15 AM   #61 
        - I got that "smile" order last week  lwfern   May-30-07 12:49 PM   #72 
  - 43 certainly is universal and in southern europe or wall st they grab your ass too.  bettyellen   Dec-30-06 05:26 PM   #64 
  - Great list  barb162   Oct-13-06 12:24 AM   #62 
  - Seeking Susan Anthony........... GREAT Article !  LetsThink   Oct-13-06 11:43 AM   #63 
  - #6,12,31,32  pecwae   Dec-31-06 12:22 PM   #67 
  - Heh. I'm not surprised...  Triana   May-14-07 11:59 AM   #71 
  - You know, I think I've encountered another one  Orrex   Jul-10-07 12:46 PM   #73 
  - My thoughts? THANK YOU!!!  lukasahero   Jul-10-07 02:45 PM   #74 
  - Is it a privilege to receive praise under such circumstances?  Boojatta   Jul-13-07 07:56 PM   #76 
     - It's a privilege to live your life receiving constant praise for doing very little.  Katherine Brengle   Jul-24-07 11:10 PM   #77 
     - Or my favorite... babysitting...  WildClarySage   Jul-25-07 08:29 AM   #78 
        - This is one of my biggest pet peeves in the world - and my husband's.  Katherine Brengle   Jul-26-07 07:37 AM   #79 
        - i guess over decade ago i said something to mil about this. last week she went into a rant  seabeyond   Jul-07-09 08:50 AM   #97 
           - Why does it have to be about men to hold sway?  lukasahero   Jul-07-09 10:09 AM   #98 
              - because all battles arent about women. it could be argued in that manner  seabeyond   Jul-07-09 10:23 AM   #99 
              - also, it should be enough. but they are repug, fox news watchin  seabeyond   Jul-07-09 10:42 AM   #100 
     - Seems fitting  Orrex   Feb-29-08 12:13 PM   #88 
  - What about the male propaganda machines . . . . ???  defendandprotect   Aug-12-07 11:24 PM   #80 
  - kick  Swamp Rat   Jan-10-08 03:56 AM   #81 
  - Thank you!  AspieGrrl   Jan-10-08 07:56 AM   #82 
  - As a corollary of #18:  knitter4democracy   Jan-10-08 08:36 PM   #83 
  - Is that really a corollary?  Jim__   Jan-14-08 08:08 AM   #85 
     - I have, and I've never seen attacks like what I had happen to me.  knitter4democracy   Jan-14-08 06:53 PM   #86 
  - Times will not change  km7368   Jan-11-08 08:44 PM   #84 
  - I have the privilege of not having to ask to be called "Senator" in a committee hearing I Chair  omega minimo   Jun-25-09 01:40 PM   #89 
  - Don't really have an issue with any of them  badacid   Jun-25-09 08:51 PM   #90 
  - I just gotta say  TellTheTruth82   Jun-26-09 05:37 AM   #91 
  - well this religion sure preaches male head of household crap  Scout   Jun-26-09 09:05 PM   #92 
  - From the Lutheran Evangelical Church:  noamnety   Jun-27-09 08:07 AM   #93 
  - but  TellTheTruth82   Jun-29-09 10:26 AM   #96 
  - From the baptist church:  noamnety   Jun-27-09 08:13 AM   #94 
  - You, or anyone else, saying "that's insane" doesn't alter one bit the fact that lots of men still  raccoon   Jul-16-09 12:32 PM   #105 
  - Awesome list!  Azalea   Jul-14-09 04:58 PM   #101 
  - #46 Can make babies at any stage in life. NT  IDFbunny   Jul-15-09 12:32 PM   #102 
  - Instead  Azalea   Jul-15-09 03:10 PM   #103 
     - I think the post was in reference to the horrific statements being made about  lukasahero   Jul-15-09 06:31 PM   #104 
        - it's a man, baby  musette_sf   Jul-16-09 06:10 PM   #106 
           - I've really gotta let go of my manners sometimes  lukasahero   Jul-16-09 06:35 PM   #107 
  - #43  Brigid   Jul-21-09 08:43 PM   #108 
  - Does number 31 belong in the list?  Boojatta   Sep-02-09 04:34 PM   #109 
  - it's worse to exclude one gender  Scout   Sep-02-09 07:37 PM   #110 
     - i see you're responding to "Ignored"  musette_sf   Sep-03-09 09:44 PM   #111 
        - they were wondering about #31 being appropriate...  Scout   Sep-04-09 09:56 AM   #112 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Oct-29-09 05:54 PM   #113 
  - I'm just going to apply to a few of these that feel especially noticable to me  Ukonkivi   Dec-08-09 04:19 AM   #115 
  - #18 #20 #21 #24 #25 #26 #29 #37 #45 ...  OneTenthofOnePercent   Dec-09-09 01:55 PM   #116 
  - There was a time in my life I thought most of this stuff was self-evident. The first  retread   Jun-22-10 10:42 AM   #117 
  - because to acknowledge it exists  mzteris   Jun-22-10 06:46 PM   #118 
     - Black females are never accorded a position of "privilege".  Glassunion   Dec-04-10 01:48 PM   #124 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   May-13-11 11:22 AM   #127 

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