Reply #27: Here is the basic thing.

[RandomThoughts]

If the reference frame is any two objects, then you have issues of vector, since relative speeds also consist of direction. If they do not consist of direction, then you have the issue of one slowing down till reaching speed0 then speeding up again in the other direction.

if you state 'any reference frame' making actual speed0 or lightspeed irrelevant, then you state that neither speed0 or light speed can ever be reached.

And for speed0 not to be able to be reached it must exist.


Do you say it is vector based, where the differential in speed is only the difference between two objects.
If it is only relative between traveling objects, then it is easy to show many examples that does not work for.




Three moving objects approaching a meeting point, they all move same speed, all their clocks when checked after meeting would have the same time of travel.

The second example, without any external reference is the exact same image as the first, however their clocks would not say the same, since they are not only moving at different speeds, they are traveling different distances. For a time reference to not have any external reference point, then extrapolations would have to be perfectly linear as one approaches the speed of light, but it is exponential.



If you say that there is no 'external reference' besides the objects in question, then you have to say that those two cases are the same. since they are the same without some base comparable speed for all of them.


Here is the thing, seeing someone moving slower or faster is not really relevant, since it is not a permanent state still viewable at point of meeting, however a dilation effect can be viewed post journey, so it must be able to be consistent across many examples since it sets a recordable record of an effect. Mass increase for example is not relative at point of meeting, since with an immediate stop effect, measure would show mass the same as beginning of flight, however time dilation exist after the travel event in that example. For it to continue to exist as a record, it has to be consistent in all cases. That can only be done with the same 'reference frame' for everything, or one single time frame, that time frame is usually light speed, but if that time frame exist then speed0 must exist.

Side note, I do not postulate that light speed can not be reached, nor speed0, just that they must exist.


The same conversation can also be made on topic of moral equivalency, some say that what is truth is only the measure between two positions, making many disingenuous discussions. I state that there is a moral context everything is contained in, and truth or perspective is not just relative to the views of two people, even if while in a normal state they have not reached light speed yet.

And also why I like the relationship of, going faster, as a metaphor, although being a metaphor, lightspeed and speed0 are part of label trap, so could be flipped and would still fit metaphor. Not trying to set a label trap there.