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Reply #218: Where is the dishonesty? You said studies didn't exist. Now you say you don't like the study results [View All]

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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #214
218. Where is the dishonesty? You said studies didn't exist. Now you say you don't like the study results
How far do you think children are from their vaccines?

On the second study, here's more info from pubmed. I can't find the entire article free online but I did find the abstract.

Immunological findings in autism.

Cohly HH, Panja A.

Department of Biology, Jackson State University, Mississippi 39217, USA.

The immunopathogenesis of autism is presented schematically in Fig. 1. Two main immune dysfunctions in autism are immune regulation involving pro-inflammatory cytokines and autoimmunity. Mercury and an infectious agent like the measles virus are currently two main candidate environmental triggers for immune dysfunction in autism. Genetically immune dysfunction in autism involves the MHC region, as this is an immunologic gene cluster whose gene products are Class I, II, and III molecules. Class I and II molecules are associated with antigen presentation. The antigen in virus infection initiated by the virus particle itself while the cytokine production and inflammatory mediators are due to the response to the putative antigen in question. The cell-mediated immunity is impaired as evidenced by low numbers of CD4 cells and a concomitant T-cell polarity with an imbalance of Th1/Th2 subsets toward Th2. Impaired humoral immunity on the other hand is evidenced by decreased IgA causing poor gut protection. Studies showing elevated brain specific antibodies in autism support an autoimmune mechanism. Viruses may initiate the process but the subsequent activation of cytokines is the damaging factor associated with autism. Virus specific antibodies associated with measles virus have been demonstrated in autistic subjects. Environmental exposure to mercury is believed to harm human health possibly through modulation of immune homeostasis. A mercury link with the immune system has been postulated due to the involvement of postnatal exposure to thimerosal, a preservative added in the MMR vaccines. The occupational hazard exposure to mercury causes edema in astrocytes and, at the molecular level, the CD95/Fas apoptotic signaling pathway is disrupted by Hg2+. Inflammatory mediators in autism usually involve activation of astrocytes and microglial cells. Proinflammatory chemokines (MCP-1 and TARC), and an anti-inflammatory and modulatory cytokine, TGF-beta1, are consistently elevated in autistic brains. In measles virus infection, it has been postulated that there is immune suppression by inhibiting T-cell proliferation and maturation and downregulation MHC class II expression. Cytokine alteration of TNF-alpha is increased in autistic populations. Toll-like-receptors are also involved in autistic development. High NO levels are associated with autism. Maternal antibodies may trigger autism as a mechanism of autoimmunity. MMR vaccination may increase risk for autism via an autoimmune mechanism in autism. MMR antibodies are significantly higher in autistic children as compared to normal children, supporting a role of MMR in autism. Autoantibodies (IgG isotype) to neuron-axon filament protein (NAFP) and glial fibrillary acidic protein (GFAP) are significantly increased in autistic patients (Singh et al., 1997). Increase in Th2 may explain the increased autoimmunity, such as the findings of antibodies to MBP and neuronal axonal filaments in the brain. There is further evidence that there are other participants in the autoimmune phenomenon. (Kozlovskaia et al., 2000). The possibility of its involvement in autism cannot be ruled out. Further investigations at immunological, cellular, molecular, and genetic levels will allow researchers to continue to unravel the immunopathogenic mechanisms' associated with autistic processes in the developing brain. This may open up new avenues for prevention and/or cure of this devastating neurodevelopmental disorder.

Again, I'm not trying to prove that X causes Y. I'm saying there is more to the research than Wakefield and there are several studies which show a potential path from vaccination to autism. I look at the totality of the unbiased research and have come to the conclusion that some children who are vulnerable (like Hannah Poling) can develop autism with the "help" of various vaccines. I also believe there are many other avenues. I want to better understand the mechanisms involved so solutions can be found.
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  -Anti-safety advocates, you've been duped! Wakefield has had NO impact on measles in the US. mzmolly  Jan-07-11 04:36 PM   #0 
  - Is leaving out pertinent information fun?  laconicsax   Jan-07-11 04:42 PM   #1 
  - Is this a game of 20 questions? Can anyone play? n/t  pnwmom   Jan-07-11 04:47 PM   #3 
  - If you want.  laconicsax   Jan-07-11 05:13 PM   #7 
     - You mean when the CDC started culling data for those up to 35 months?  mzmolly   Jan-07-11 06:22 PM   #18 
        - Swing and a miss!  laconicsax   Jan-07-11 07:01 PM   #29 
           - I'd prefer you just enlighten us all.  mzmolly   Jan-07-11 07:03 PM   #32 
              - The CDC isn't ignoring anything. You are.  laconicsax   Jan-07-11 07:10 PM   #35 
                 - I'm not ignoring anything. I posted a link to the data. Feel free to subtract the 27,786  mzmolly   Jan-07-11 07:17 PM   #37 
                 - You're so close! Keep trying.  laconicsax   Jan-07-11 07:21 PM   #40 
                    - Sorry, you blew the first cat and mouse dance. I'm not  mzmolly   Jan-07-11 07:24 PM   #43 
                       - If you've been researching vaccines for years and you know it all then you admit to being dishonest.  laconicsax   Jan-07-11 09:06 PM   #53 
                          - I'm pointing out that Wakefield had no impact on vaccination coverage  mzmolly   Jan-07-11 09:14 PM   #54 
                             - Read that bit you put in bold in your OP.  laconicsax   Jan-07-11 09:23 PM   #55 
                                - You mean the part that demonstrates thousands of parents were told that their children  mzmolly   Jan-07-11 09:36 PM   #56 
                                   - And right on cue, the goalposts start shifting. n/t  laconicsax   Jan-07-11 10:41 PM   #57 
                                      - You should know.  mzmolly   Jan-07-11 11:42 PM   #58 
                                         - You go head and tell yourself that.  laconicsax   Jan-08-11 01:21 AM   #60 
                                            - My argument again, is that Andrew Wakefield had no impact on disease and/or vaccination coverage  mzmolly   Jan-08-11 11:18 AM   #63 
                                               - Deleted sub-thread  Name removed   Jan-08-11 12:32 PM   #66 
                                               - sorry, you got pwned  Teaser   Jan-11-11 07:29 PM   #108 
                                               - Gee. Such convincing  mzmolly   Jan-11-11 07:47 PM   #110 
                 - So? There was a measles outbreak, which made them realize  pnwmom   Jan-07-11 07:21 PM   #41 
                    - It doesn't,  mzmolly   Jan-07-11 07:26 PM   #45 
  - You mean the CDC data is incorrect?  mzmolly   Jan-07-11 06:05 PM   #11 
     - That's not at all what I mean.  laconicsax   Jan-07-11 07:00 PM   #28 
        - Well then, feel free to educate me and  mzmolly   Jan-07-11 07:02 PM   #31 
           - The problem isn't the CDC, it's you ignoring important information. n/t  laconicsax   Jan-07-11 07:19 PM   #39 
           - My post is relevant to the fact that Andrew Wakefield had no impact  mzmolly   Jan-07-11 07:27 PM   #46 
           - You've been educated over and over again.  HuckleB   Jan-08-11 06:01 PM   #71 
              - I'm looking at the definitve data before drawing conclusions.  mzmolly   Jan-08-11 06:13 PM   #74 
  - I regret that I don't have hours to debate, so this will have to do.  hlthe2b   Jan-07-11 04:46 PM   #2 
  - Your answer doesn't address the statistics the OP provided.  pnwmom   Jan-07-11 04:51 PM   #4 
  - Exactly. And the rate of disease declined greatly from the decade  mzmolly   Jan-07-11 06:09 PM   #15 
     - There's a reason for that  laconicsax   Jan-07-11 07:03 PM   #33 
        - 1998 was 13 years ago.  mzmolly   Jan-07-11 07:08 PM   #34 
           - It's not like you brought up 1988-1998 in you OP.  laconicsax   Jan-07-11 07:19 PM   #38 
              - This is where context  mzmolly   Jan-07-11 07:28 PM   #47 
  - I've never gotten over seeing a child suffer from stage 4 cancer.  mzmolly   Jan-07-11 06:58 PM   #27 
     - Exactly. To save a little money, they use multi-use vials  pnwmom   Jan-07-11 07:16 PM   #36 
        - I've no idea. All I want is a choice.  mzmolly   Jan-07-11 07:21 PM   #42 
           - Me, too. As I did when I wanted the killed-virus Polio vaccine,  pnwmom   Jan-07-11 07:24 PM   #44 
              - I'll never forget when one parent who told their child's story of vaccine injury said "I've had  mzmolly   Jan-07-11 07:41 PM   #48 
  - that's at BEST, suggestive... not conclusive of your claim  jallo   Jan-07-11 05:01 PM   #5 
  - Huh?  mzmolly   Jan-07-11 06:07 PM   #13 
  - To suggest those in public health & medicine are ANTI-SAFETY  hlthe2b   Jan-07-11 05:09 PM   #6 
  - You mean like suggesting those who want formaldehyde removed from  mzmolly   Jan-07-11 06:06 PM   #12 
  - You most certainly have... I hope you let your physician/nurse/pharmacist  hlthe2b   Jan-07-11 07:59 PM   #49 
     - No, SHAME ON YOU.  mzmolly   Jan-07-11 08:12 PM   #50 
        - SHAME ON YOU For attacking those trying to help you...  hlthe2b   Jan-07-11 08:26 PM   #51 
           - Tell me how I've derided anyone in medicine who isn't lying about the impact  mzmolly   Jan-07-11 08:32 PM   #52 
           - The OP didn't accuse any of the medical professionals she uses  pnwmom   Jan-07-11 11:49 PM   #59 
  - Deleted sub-thread  Name removed   Jan-07-11 06:36 PM   #20 
  - I'm in the UK; care to post those vaccination numbers?  Spider Jerusalem   Jan-07-11 05:24 PM   #8 
  - OMG,you mean there are places other than America? Who knew?  virgogal   Jan-07-11 05:45 PM   #9 
  - Ah the UK. It's difficult to track in the UK given they do not account for the  mzmolly   Jan-07-11 06:04 PM   #10 
  - Most people wouldn't be paying out of pocket though.  Spider Jerusalem   Jan-07-11 06:29 PM   #19 
  - There are clinics in the UK dedicated to providing a single measles jab.  mzmolly   Jan-07-11 06:36 PM   #21 
  - It was not MANY providers...  LeftishBrit   Jan-10-11 08:33 AM   #86 
     - I agree with you. I never understood why three vaccines would  mzmolly   Jan-10-11 12:41 PM   #88 
        - The preservative was not at issue because the MMR never contained thiomersal.  Spider Jerusalem   Jan-11-11 01:05 PM   #106 
           - I was aware of this, which is why I said as much in the reponse you replied to.  mzmolly   Jan-11-11 07:46 PM   #109 
  - That isn't the point, S.J. Many people here have argued that U.S. vaccination  pnwmom   Jan-07-11 06:38 PM   #22 
  - Just found this. There was a single measles related death (in 2006) in 14 years in the UK.  mzmolly   Jan-07-11 06:48 PM   #25 
     - You're not seeing it because you don't want to see it.  Spider Jerusalem   Jan-07-11 06:53 PM   #26 
        - A ten percent decline in the three way MMR. Again we don't know what the single jab  mzmolly   Jan-07-11 07:01 PM   #30 
        - Deleted message  Name removed   Jan-08-11 09:58 AM   #62 
           - Ad hominem attacks again? What I "see" is factual data from the CDC, which I noted above.  mzmolly   Jan-08-11 11:35 AM   #65 
              - What you see is, as always, only what you want to see.  HuckleB   Jan-08-11 05:47 PM   #68 
                 - I see the data provided by the CDC. You're ingoring it.  mzmolly   Jan-08-11 05:57 PM   #69 
                    - No, I am not ignoring it.  HuckleB   Jan-08-11 06:00 PM   #70 
                       - My routine involves telling the truth and not allowing  mzmolly   Jan-08-11 06:07 PM   #72 
  - I'm curious  EvolveOrConvolve   Jan-07-11 06:09 PM   #14 
  - I'm not defending Wakefield. I'm correcting the misinformed panic.  mzmolly   Jan-07-11 06:11 PM   #16 
     - You're making excuses for Wakefield  EvolveOrConvolve   Jan-08-11 05:44 PM   #67 
        - Excuses? I don't have to make excuses for  mzmolly   Jan-08-11 06:11 PM   #73 
           - Do you think there's a valid link between autism and vaccines?  EvolveOrConvolve   Jan-08-11 06:44 PM   #75 
              - In a small number of children,  mzmolly   Jan-08-11 11:00 PM   #76 
                 - That's all I needed to know  EvolveOrConvolve   Jan-09-11 09:22 AM   #80 
                 - Based on what kind of factual evidence?  cleanhippie   Jan-12-11 11:54 AM   #116 
                    - Google  mzmolly   Jan-12-11 02:53 PM   #117 
                       - Google is not evidence.  laconicsax   Jan-12-11 03:15 PM   #119 
                          - I should have further clarified. The peer reviewed studies on google scholar are a good place  mzmolly   Jan-12-11 03:26 PM   #120 
                             - you obviously know how to post a link, how about a link to those studies.  cleanhippie   Jan-12-11 04:41 PM   #124 
                                - You can't find "mercury and brain damage?" Check your spelling.  mzmolly   Jan-12-11 05:27 PM   #126 
                                - I am not finding any studies that support your assertions.  cleanhippie   Jan-13-11 09:36 AM   #147 
                                   - Perhaps that's because you don't understand  mzmolly   Jan-13-11 11:02 AM   #152 
                                      - Those cut-and-paste skills certainly are impressive.  cleanhippie   Jan-13-11 11:06 AM   #154 
                                         - Go back and read what I said. I'm not here to prove that X causes Y.  mzmolly   Jan-13-11 11:11 AM   #156 
                                            - You implicitly stated, in post #76, that there is a direct link "in a small number of children"  cleanhippie   Jan-13-11 11:12 AM   #157 
                                               - Nice spin. What I said was ...  mzmolly   Jan-13-11 11:20 AM   #159 
                                                  - You are right, you said vaccinations and I stated thermerisol. Allow me to re-ask.  cleanhippie   Jan-13-11 11:39 AM   #162 
                                                  - I did provide you with a link that supports my opinion.  mzmolly   Jan-13-11 11:49 AM   #165 
                                                  - No you did not. Nothing in that link supoorts a vaccine/autism connection. Nothing.  cleanhippie   Jan-13-11 11:52 AM   #167 
                                                  - I've replied below.  mzmolly   Jan-13-11 12:00 PM   #173 
                                - You'll get used to it.  laconicsax   Jan-12-11 05:53 PM   #129 
                                   - I've sourced studies several times.  mzmolly   Jan-12-11 07:10 PM   #133 
                                      - Thank you for the link, but that is an inconclusive study.  cleanhippie   Jan-13-11 09:33 AM   #146 
                                         - What do you mean inconclusive?  mzmolly   Jan-13-11 10:25 AM   #149 
                                            - The very last line of the abstract...  cleanhippie   Jan-13-11 10:40 AM   #150 
                                               - You're unfamiliar with the subject matter, and what the results in your quote imply.  mzmolly   Jan-13-11 10:54 AM   #151 
                                                  - Are you actually telling me that because I don't see it the same way you do, that I don't understand  cleanhippie   Jan-13-11 11:03 AM   #153 
                                                     - No. I'm telling you that because you don't understand the findings,  mzmolly   Jan-13-11 11:06 AM   #155 
                                                     - Yes, I most certain CAN say that is does not support your opinion. You stated in post #76 that...  cleanhippie   Jan-13-11 11:14 AM   #158 
                                                     - No I didn't.  mzmolly   Jan-13-11 11:27 AM   #160 
                                                     - Again, you seem to me ignoring or misunderstanding what is being asked here.  cleanhippie   Jan-13-11 11:35 AM   #161 
                                                     - Did you read post 75?  mzmolly   Jan-13-11 11:41 AM   #163 
                                                     - I changed the word thermerisol to vaccines. Now back to the question.  cleanhippie   Jan-13-11 11:43 AM   #164 
                                                     - Change the words autism and vaccines to mercury and brain damage  mzmolly   Jan-13-11 11:50 AM   #166 
                                                     - but murcury and brain damage was NOT what you asserted, vaccines and autism was.  cleanhippie   Jan-13-11 11:53 AM   #168 
                                                     - cleanhippie, your patience is to be applauded.  HuckleB   Jan-13-11 11:54 AM   #169 
                                                     - Thanks, just trying to get the facts. An assertion was made and I want to see the evidence for it.  cleanhippie   Jan-13-11 11:56 AM   #170 
                                                     - Oh, I know.  HuckleB   Jan-13-11 11:58 AM   #171 
                                                     - Why would more mercruy in the brain be less of a concern?  mzmolly   Jan-13-11 12:07 PM   #175 
                                                     - I never stated that it was, ever. I am still waiting on the evidence to support your assertion.  cleanhippie   Jan-13-11 12:09 PM   #176 
                                                     - I said that I believe there is a valid link. So did the courts when they awarded  mzmolly   Jan-13-11 12:28 PM   #182 
                                                     - So, are you saying that you believe there is a link but have no actual data or evidence?  cleanhippie   Jan-13-11 12:30 PM   #183 
                                                     - No, I'm saying that you're ignoring evidence. Can mercury cause brain damage  mzmolly   Jan-13-11 12:31 PM   #184 
                                                     - What does that have to do with your orginal assertion that vaccines and autism are linked?  cleanhippie   Jan-13-11 12:35 PM   #186 
                                                     - Answer the question. A yes or no will do.  mzmolly   Jan-13-11 12:40 PM   #188 
                                                     - Response is here...  cleanhippie   Jan-13-11 01:05 PM   #192 
                                                     - That's not a response.  mzmolly   Jan-13-11 01:14 PM   #193 
                                                     - Is there a problem with moving this to the new sub-thread?  cleanhippie   Jan-13-11 01:30 PM   #197 
                                                     - Resonse is here....  cleanhippie   Jan-13-11 01:05 PM   #191 
                                                     - Yes or no.  mzmolly   Jan-13-11 01:15 PM   #194 
                                                     - Is there a problem with continuing this on a new sub-thread?  cleanhippie   Jan-13-11 01:29 PM   #196 
                                                     - Why would *no* mercury in the brain from the MMR be a concern?  LeftishBrit   Jan-13-11 12:20 PM   #179 
                                                     - I'm not concerned with mercury as it relates to MMR. I've confirmed that.  mzmolly   Jan-13-11 12:25 PM   #180 
                                                     - LOL  mzmolly   Jan-13-11 12:05 PM   #174 
                                                     - There are no biological tests involved in diagnosing autism. I'll let you stew on that a bit.  mzmolly   Jan-13-11 11:59 AM   #172 
                                                     - I never stated that it would be, you did.  cleanhippie   Jan-13-11 12:10 PM   #177 
                                                     - In any case. mercury has never been present in the MMR, at least in the UK  LeftishBrit   Jan-13-11 12:16 PM   #178 
                                                     - Right. It was brought up in the broader context of vaccination  mzmolly   Jan-13-11 12:26 PM   #181 
                                                     - YOU brought it up and evidence that it supported your assertion of a vaccine/autism link.  cleanhippie   Jan-13-11 12:33 PM   #185 
                                                     - Do you believe that mercury causes brain damage or not?  mzmolly   Jan-13-11 12:38 PM   #187 
                                                     - I have responded here...  cleanhippie   Jan-13-11 01:04 PM   #190 
  - My first link on vaccine coverage levels should be:  mzmolly   Jan-07-11 06:16 PM   #17 
  - Wow. So we have a 50% HIGHER mmr vaccination rate now than in 1985.  pnwmom   Jan-07-11 06:42 PM   #23 
     - Yep. We are very good about complying with vaccination recommendations for  mzmolly   Jan-07-11 06:44 PM   #24 
  - If the argument is that Wakefield's being turned out as a fraud and huckster is irrelevant...  varkam   Jan-08-11 01:52 AM   #61 
  - That's not my argument. My argument is that Wakefield  mzmolly   Jan-08-11 11:26 AM   #64 
     - You really have a way with spinning things.  laconicsax   Jan-09-11 12:44 AM   #77 
     - This is the meme  mzmolly   Jan-09-11 01:12 AM   #78 
        - Now THAT'S some egocentrism!  laconicsax   Jan-09-11 01:44 AM   #79 
           - You've proven my point.  mzmolly   Jan-09-11 09:52 AM   #81 
              - It's telling that you don't care whether any studies exist which show a link between autism and MMR  laconicsax   Jan-09-11 09:30 PM   #84 
                 - I didn't say I don't care if the studies are true.  mzmolly   Jan-10-11 12:45 PM   #89 
                    - I hope you didn't give yourself whiplash from spinning so fast.  laconicsax   Jan-10-11 03:14 PM   #90 
                       - It is not I who suffers from whiplash.  mzmolly   Jan-10-11 03:41 PM   #92 
                          - I accept your apology.  laconicsax   Jan-10-11 09:08 PM   #100 
                             - "I look forward to reading your nonsensical reply."  mzmolly   Jan-10-11 09:11 PM   #102 
                                - LAST WORD!!! LAST WORD!!!  laconicsax   Jan-10-11 09:43 PM   #103 
                                   - I just have to do it!  HuckleB   Jan-10-11 10:56 PM   #105 
     - Actually two deaths; but the important issue is that there was a lot of extra illness  LeftishBrit   Jan-11-11 02:07 PM   #107 
        - I'm don't take issue  mzmolly   Jan-11-11 07:50 PM   #111 
           - There was another death in 2008.  LeftishBrit   Jan-12-11 05:54 AM   #112 
              - Bias may effect reporting. My child had a viral rash  mzmolly   Jan-12-11 10:40 AM   #113 
                 - Following in Wakefield's footsteps in countering bias I see.  laconicsax   Jan-12-11 11:27 AM   #114 
                 - So says Brian Deer. Eight parents involved in the original study  mzmolly   Jan-12-11 11:31 AM   #115 
                    - It's been shown beyond any doubt that Wakefield falsified his data. n/t  laconicsax   Jan-12-11 03:08 PM   #118 
                       - Feel free to  mzmolly   Jan-12-11 03:28 PM   #121 
                          - YES, it's a shame that he was!  LeftishBrit   Jan-12-11 04:10 PM   #123 
                          - It is a shame. Of course, his co-authors have since backed out and the journal retracted the paper.  laconicsax   Jan-12-11 04:50 PM   #125 
                             - We've been over his study results, and the fact that his study is not  mzmolly   Jan-12-11 05:29 PM   #127 
                                - You've yet to cite those other studies.  laconicsax   Jan-12-11 05:55 PM   #130 
                                   - The thread is about Wakefield's impact on vaccination which is nill.  mzmolly   Jan-12-11 07:22 PM   #134 
                                      - Hmm...a study saying that the half-life of thimerosal is significantly shorter than methylmercury.  laconicsax   Jan-12-11 08:36 PM   #135 
                                         - You must have overlooked the conclusion?  mzmolly   Jan-12-11 08:41 PM   #136 
                                         - My mistake. I had several PubMed tabs open was reading off of the wrong one.  laconicsax   Jan-12-11 10:17 PM   #140 
                                            - I've never supported Wakefield's single jab notion, but I'm glad you admit that he never suggested  mzmolly   Jan-12-11 11:49 PM   #141 
                                               - You brought up autism, you brought up the study, you brought up Wakefield's hypothesis.  laconicsax   Jan-13-11 12:05 AM   #142 
                                               - Again. The record of conversation speaks for itself. I brought up Wakefield  mzmolly   Jan-13-11 12:10 AM   #143 
                                               - LAST WORD! LAST WORD!! LAST WORD!!!  laconicsax   Jan-13-11 12:45 AM   #144 
                                               - Does the irony of your childish statement  mzmolly   Jan-13-11 10:16 AM   #148 
                                               - LAST WORD! I HAVE THE LAST WORD! ME! ME! ME!  laconicsax   Jan-13-11 04:04 PM   #208 
                                               - didn't work for me either. eom  uppityperson   Jan-13-11 07:46 PM   #217 
                                         - self-delete (wrong place)  LeftishBrit   Jan-13-11 03:39 AM   #145 
                 - If measles wasn't suggested by the doctor...  LeftishBrit   Jan-12-11 04:08 PM   #122 
                    - She said there are many virus's that can cause a rash.  mzmolly   Jan-12-11 05:30 PM   #128 
                       - Then it's pretty clear that your child didn't have measles  LeftishBrit   Jan-12-11 06:51 PM   #131 
                          - No it's not clear.  mzmolly   Jan-12-11 07:03 PM   #132 
                             - There are four possibilities:  laconicsax   Jan-12-11 08:41 PM   #137 
                                - Are you a Doctor?  mzmolly   Jan-12-11 08:44 PM   #138 
                                   - No, and no.  laconicsax   Jan-12-11 09:34 PM   #139 
  - He certainly had such an impact in the UK.  LeftishBrit   Jan-09-11 10:03 AM   #82 
  - On measles death in the UK in fourteen years occurred in 2006.  mzmolly   Jan-09-11 10:17 AM   #83 
     - Lots of kids got sick unnecessarily  LeftishBrit   Jan-10-11 08:27 AM   #85 
        - If this is true it's not because anyone accepted the advice of Dr. Wakefield  mzmolly   Jan-10-11 12:35 PM   #87 
           - And the goalposts shift again!  laconicsax   Jan-10-11 03:31 PM   #91 
              - My goalposts haven't shifted once.  mzmolly   Jan-10-11 03:46 PM   #93 
                 - Whatever helps you sleep at night. n/t  laconicsax   Jan-10-11 05:03 PM   #94 
                    - I sleep just fine,  mzmolly   Jan-10-11 06:45 PM   #95 
                       - LOL!  laconicsax   Jan-10-11 07:15 PM   #96 
                          - Thanks! I was hoping for your familiar  mzmolly   Jan-10-11 07:30 PM   #97 
                             - I think you have me confused with someone else.  laconicsax   Jan-10-11 07:37 PM   #98 
                                - I wasn't sure that Huck was he,  mzmolly   Jan-10-11 08:19 PM   #99 
                                   - No problem. n/t  laconicsax   Jan-10-11 09:10 PM   #101 
                                      - .  HuckleB   Jan-10-11 10:55 PM   #104 
  - Continuation of the sub-thread above  cleanhippie   Jan-13-11 01:03 PM   #189 
  - Do you think that mercury causes brain damage or not? YES or NO.  mzmolly   Jan-13-11 01:17 PM   #195 
     - I don't know the answer to that question.  cleanhippie   Jan-13-11 01:35 PM   #198 
        - You don't know? Why do you feel qualified to understand any study, including the two I posted  mzmolly   Jan-13-11 02:00 PM   #199 
           - So am I to understand that you cannot or will not provide me a link to a vaccine/autism study?  cleanhippie   Jan-13-11 02:15 PM   #200 
              - Why do you feel qualified to understand any study, including the two valid studies I posted above  mzmolly   Jan-13-11 02:18 PM   #201 
                 - I will take your attempts at ad homenim as a NO, you will not.  cleanhippie   Jan-13-11 02:23 PM   #202 
                    - I've posted links to two valid studies that you don't understand, for obvious reasons.  mzmolly   Jan-13-11 02:44 PM   #203 
                       - Neither one of those studies show a link between vaccines and autism. Not at all.  cleanhippie   Jan-13-11 02:49 PM   #204 
                       - LOL #6.  mzmolly   Jan-13-11 03:03 PM   #205 
                          - Its dishonest to intentionally misrepresent my position like you have done.  cleanhippie   Jan-13-11 03:14 PM   #206 
                          - I've provided 6 (now 7) links to research which informs my opinion. Yet you continue to deny this.  mzmolly   Jan-13-11 03:42 PM   #207 
                             - Ahh, this dishonesty in this one is strong!  cleanhippie   Jan-13-11 05:44 PM   #214 
                                - You missed a bit.  laconicsax   Jan-13-11 06:31 PM   #215 
                                - I'm sorry you don't care for how the study was conducted by the PH.D's involved in  mzmolly   Jan-13-11 07:20 PM   #216 
                                   - Is it tomorrow already?  laconicsax   Jan-13-11 08:53 PM   #219 
                                      - No. "LAST WORD LAST WORD."  mzmolly   Jan-13-11 09:17 PM   #222 
                                         - FYI: Holding you to your original claim isn't moving the goalposts.  laconicsax   Jan-13-11 09:36 PM   #223 
                                            - I posted several studies. What specific words do you need to see?  mzmolly   Jan-13-11 10:13 PM   #225 
                                            - None of those studies allege a connection between vaccination and autism.  laconicsax   Jan-13-11 10:46 PM   #227 
                                            - Yes, they do "allege." Unless you need to see the words  mzmolly   Jan-13-11 11:04 PM   #230 
                                            - dup delete  mzmolly   Jan-13-11 11:08 PM   #232 
                                            - Offering you the actual LAST WORD here.  mzmolly   Jan-13-11 11:11 PM   #235 
                                - Where is the dishonesty? You said studies didn't exist. Now you say you don't like the study results  mzmolly   Jan-13-11 07:47 PM   #218 
                          - Once again this isn't about vaccines  LeftishBrit   Jan-13-11 04:24 PM   #210 
                             - What is "this?"  mzmolly   Jan-13-11 04:40 PM   #211 
                       - Neither of these studies shows that vaccines cause autism  LeftishBrit   Jan-13-11 04:20 PM   #209 
                          - You're not reading very carefully. I was asked my opinion on  mzmolly   Jan-13-11 04:56 PM   #212 
                          - I'm taking a break from this thread. I'll check back tomorrow.  mzmolly   Jan-13-11 05:07 PM   #213 
                             - You have a very flexible definition of "tomorrow"  laconicsax   Jan-13-11 08:59 PM   #220 
                                - Deleted message  Name removed   Jan-13-11 09:01 PM   #221 
                                   - You do realize that replies to you don't go anywhere if you don't respond immediately, right?  laconicsax   Jan-13-11 09:41 PM   #224 
                                      - I do. And I also realize I'm having company  mzmolly   Jan-13-11 10:15 PM   #226 
                                         - No one is forcing you to participate in an Internet discussion against your will.  laconicsax   Jan-13-11 10:55 PM   #228 
                                            - I don't recall saying I was  mzmolly   Jan-13-11 11:10 PM   #233 
  - What is an anti-safety advocate?  HuckleB   Jan-13-11 11:01 PM   #229 
  - Someone who wants to limit choice by denying things like  mzmolly   Jan-13-11 11:07 PM   #231 
     - In other words, "anti-safety" = anyone who chooses to pay attention to actual science.  HuckleB   Jan-13-11 11:11 PM   #234 
        - The science on formaldehyde and mercury?  mzmolly   Jan-13-11 11:15 PM   #236 
           - You've "heard."  HuckleB   Jan-13-11 11:17 PM   #237 
  - locking  TrogL   Jan-14-11 12:16 AM   #238 

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