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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-17-09 06:30 AM
Response to Reply #124
133. What really bothers me...
is the framing of the whole vaccine debate as 'pro-pharma' or 'anti-pharma'.

I don't want vaccines to be available because I am 'pro-pharma' or want them to make a profit. I just want vaccines and other medications to be available to protect the health of the many vulnerable people who are incapable of just 'relying on natural defenses'. If this could be done with as little involvement of any sort of big business as possible - all the better! But it should be done in whatever way is possible. Healthcare for vulnerable people is more important than either helping pharma companies to make a profit, or preventing them from making a profit.

It is very like the way that opponents of welfare benefits, or of public services provision, reframe the debate in terms of the supporters of such provisions as 'pro-big-government' and the projects that they support as 'spending projects'. Few people want 'big government' for its own sake, and even fewer want 'spending' for its own sake. They want the universal provision of public services to help all the people, not just the rich; and welfare benefits to prevent or alleviate poverty. But once such issues get framed as being 'pro-pharma' or 'pro-big-government' or 'pro-spending', it results in losing sight of people's real needs and diverting attention to financial concerns of 'who profits'. 'Who profits' is an important *secondary* concern; it is important to ensure that pharma, and insurance companies, and other businesses, and government officials, do not profit at the expense of the public, so that as much as possible goes to those who really need the medical procedures or other public services. But talking about vaccine support as 'pro-pharma' basically implies: "Vaccines must be no good *because* bad guys can profit from them" or even "It is better than you should drop dead than undergo a medical procedure that might benefit bad guys".

Financial concerns should not be the top issue in the vaccine debate - in either direction.
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  -Va. teen suffers rare illness (GBS) after swine flu shot ~ CDC says "no clear link." mzmolly  Nov-12-09 09:24 PM   #0 
  - how sad  ccharles000   Nov-12-09 09:27 PM   #1 
  - Thankfully he's expected to fully  mzmolly   Nov-12-09 09:33 PM   #4 
  - And over 4,000 people have died in the U.S.  BeatleBoot   Nov-12-09 09:28 PM   #2 
  - Not sure you can make that assertion?  mzmolly   Nov-12-09 09:33 PM   #3 
     - Link  BeatleBoot   Nov-12-09 09:34 PM   #5 
        - That does not prove  mzmolly   Nov-12-09 09:38 PM   #6 
        - I respect your personal decision and see your point.  BeatleBoot   Nov-12-09 09:49 PM   #9 
        - That may be.  mzmolly   Nov-12-09 10:55 PM   #15 
        - You seem to be trying to have it both ways...  LeftishBrit   Nov-13-09 02:59 PM   #58 
           - I assume no such thing.  mzmolly   Nov-13-09 04:41 PM   #97 
              - I disagree that...  LeftishBrit   Nov-13-09 05:39 PM   #108 
              - When people die as a result of an illness  mzmolly   Nov-13-09 07:45 PM   #112 
                 - I completely agree with you Molly, about the extremism  Chemisse   Nov-16-09 08:01 PM   #117 
                    - "It's rather like censorship. No discussion along those lines is tolerated - period."  mzmolly   Nov-16-09 11:29 PM   #122 
              - Vaccine odds  Confusious   Nov-17-09 05:29 AM   #132 
                 - Do you have some kind of link?  mzmolly   Nov-17-09 01:55 PM   #137 
                    - Since your so lazy.........  Confusious   Nov-17-09 09:32 PM   #141 
                       - Lazy? This from the person who hasn't bothered to read the OP?  mzmolly   Nov-17-09 11:20 PM   #143 
                          - Well, you said you doubted my numbers  Confusious   Nov-18-09 04:05 PM   #145 
                             - The burden of proof is yours. And you've failed once again.  mzmolly   Nov-18-09 10:09 PM   #147 
                                - You can lead an anti-vaxxers to facts  Confusious   Nov-19-09 02:52 PM   #148 
                                   - When you lead anyone to them facts you speak about  mzmolly   Nov-20-09 12:41 PM   #150 
                                      - My point proven  Confusious   Nov-20-09 02:15 PM   #152 
                                         - Ah  mzmolly   Nov-20-09 03:03 PM   #153 
                                            - yep.....  Confusious   Nov-20-09 05:52 PM   #155 
                                               - Nah, but thanks for kicking the  mzmolly   Nov-20-09 06:58 PM   #156 
                                                  - Np, I hope it stays here to show  Confusious   Nov-20-09 07:46 PM   #159 
                                                  - You've presented nothing resembling fact. I asked you to back up your assertion  mzmolly   Nov-20-09 08:23 PM   #160 
        - Les'see  Why Syzygy   Nov-12-09 09:48 PM   #8 
           - Let's See. How many people have died from GBS versus H1N1?  BeatleBoot   Nov-12-09 10:01 PM   #11 
           - And for those who won't even bother to read your link...  Warren Stupidity   Nov-12-09 10:06 PM   #12 
              - I got the shot because  BeatleBoot   Nov-12-09 10:18 PM   #13 
                 - I only butt-in when teh stupid shows up here.  Warren Stupidity   Nov-12-09 10:35 PM   #14 
                    - So MSNBC is now teh stupid?  mzmolly   Nov-12-09 11:03 PM   #18 
                    - And WHO is saying "no one is ever injured from any vaccine, ever"?  uppityperson   Nov-13-09 01:51 PM   #28 
                       - What some say is essentially what I noted. And, it is also suggested that we NEVER  mzmolly   Nov-13-09 01:57 PM   #30 
                          - We think its stupid to discuss  Confusious   Nov-18-09 09:46 PM   #146 
                             - 1/700000 = the odds of getting struck by lightening. 1 in 1000 doses  mzmolly   Nov-20-09 12:49 PM   #151 
                    - That is exactly what I mean!  Chemisse   Nov-16-09 08:06 PM   #118 
           - Supposing even that we assume...  LeftishBrit   Nov-13-09 04:32 PM   #94 
              - Why not assume that we could actually prevent vaccine  mzmolly   Nov-13-09 04:47 PM   #99 
                 - Actually that wouldn't be a bad idea...  LeftishBrit   Nov-13-09 05:12 PM   #102 
                 - That's all I ask  mzmolly   Nov-13-09 05:26 PM   #106 
                 - The whole GB reaction - if it is valid  Chemisse   Nov-16-09 08:09 PM   #119 
  - The OP left this out:  Warren Stupidity   Nov-12-09 09:46 PM   #7 
  - Thank you.  BeatleBoot   Nov-12-09 09:52 PM   #10 
  - Very good point.  HuckleB   Nov-12-09 10:58 PM   #16 
  - The "OP" can post only four paragraphs  mzmolly   Nov-12-09 11:00 PM   #17 
  - A couple of notes.  Jim__   Nov-13-09 09:02 AM   #21 
  - No clear link my foot....  ingac70   Nov-12-09 11:09 PM   #19 
  - Shhh, the only time there is a legitimate concern, is if disease  mzmolly   Nov-12-09 11:14 PM   #20 
  - Please compare and contrast the vaccines from the 1970s with the vaccines today.  HuckleB   Nov-13-09 10:26 AM   #22 
  - Well, in comparison, both could cause Guillain-Barre syndrome.  ingac70   Nov-13-09 11:04 AM   #23 
     - Gee, that's convincing.  HuckleB   Nov-13-09 11:47 AM   #24 
        - I don't know what you want from me....  ingac70   Nov-13-09 11:57 AM   #25 
           - A little intellectual honesty.  HuckleB   Nov-13-09 01:06 PM   #26 
              - That research is pretty honest.  ingac70   Nov-13-09 01:12 PM   #27 
                 - Yeah, so you finally looked up one piece of information on the matter...  HuckleB   Nov-13-09 02:11 PM   #32 
                    - Yeah, I do....  ingac70   Nov-13-09 02:14 PM   #33 
                       - In other words, you're choosing to make assumptions.  HuckleB   Nov-13-09 02:19 PM   #36 
                       - ....  ingac70   Nov-13-09 02:24 PM   #37 
                          - Prove it.  HuckleB   Nov-13-09 02:26 PM   #38 
                             - I already did.  ingac70   Nov-13-09 02:27 PM   #39 
                                - That's one study among many.  HuckleB   Nov-13-09 02:28 PM   #40 
                                   - I've been right on message the whole time.  ingac70   Nov-13-09 02:32 PM   #41 
                                      - You're on message all right.  HuckleB   Nov-13-09 02:36 PM   #44 
                                         - From yourlink....  ingac70   Nov-13-09 02:41 PM   #46 
                                            - Way to pull a line out of context.  HuckleB   Nov-13-09 02:46 PM   #48 
                                               - ....  ingac70   Nov-13-09 02:47 PM   #50 
                                               - You really don't get it, do you?  HuckleB   Nov-13-09 02:52 PM   #54 
                                               - The Mayo does say this -  mzmolly   Nov-13-09 02:51 PM   #53 
                                               - From reading from various sources today, I'd say that's an opinion that's not universal.  HuckleB   Nov-13-09 02:54 PM   #55 
                                               - HuckleB, take a look at this.  mzmolly   Nov-13-09 03:11 PM   #64 
                                               - Yeah.  HuckleB   Nov-13-09 03:15 PM   #68 
                                               - Some feel they've  mzmolly   Nov-13-09 03:19 PM   #72 
                                               - If it was as simple as the bacteria, then perhaps they would have figured it out.  HuckleB   Nov-13-09 03:43 PM   #86 
                                               - The Mayo said the bacteria is the most common cause.  mzmolly   Nov-13-09 04:44 PM   #98 
                                               - Well, if that's what you want to go with, by all means, go with it.  HuckleB   Nov-13-09 05:19 PM   #105 
                                               - The Mayo cites the CDC and others  mzmolly   Nov-13-09 07:00 PM   #111 
                                               - That does not mean that Mayo's conclusions are correct.  HuckleB   Nov-16-09 05:30 PM   #114 
                                               - The CDC makes this claim.  mzmolly   Nov-16-09 11:25 PM   #120 
                                               - I don't see the CDC making any such claim.  HuckleB   Nov-16-09 11:30 PM   #123 
                                               - Then you didn't read my post #105 very carefully Huck.  mzmolly   Nov-16-09 11:38 PM   #125 
                                               - Ah, yes, one little information piece, written by who knows...  HuckleB   Nov-16-09 11:40 PM   #126 
                                               - Oh c'mon.  mzmolly   Nov-16-09 11:42 PM   #128 
                                               - Yeah, that's nice.  HuckleB   Nov-16-09 11:43 PM   #130 
                                               - I have to say I disagree. I wish officials knew what caused the issue in 1976.  mzmolly   Nov-17-09 12:01 AM   #131 
                                               - Again, if eggs were the issue, the research that's been done would have found the problem.  HuckleB   Nov-17-09 10:14 AM   #134 
                                               - Do notify the CDC  mzmolly   Nov-17-09 01:52 PM   #135 
                                               - Is that really your response?  HuckleB   Nov-17-09 02:18 PM   #138 
                                               - How about this. I just contacted Medimune, who makes the nasal H1N1  mzmolly   Nov-17-09 02:37 PM   #139 
                                               - A pasteurized egg is a dead egg.  ingac70   Nov-13-09 03:12 PM   #65 
                                               - Ahhh,  mzmolly   Nov-13-09 03:17 PM   #71 
                                               - Perhaps...  ingac70   Nov-13-09 03:19 PM   #73 
                                               - They wont give a shit if  mzmolly   Nov-13-09 03:21 PM   #74 
                                               - I'll just do my best to avoid egg based vaccines....  ingac70   Nov-13-09 03:25 PM   #77 
                                               - I hope to see more synthetic vaccines  mzmolly   Nov-13-09 03:28 PM   #80 
                       - Poor logic there. Here is more on gbs and campylobacter and other causes...  uppityperson   Nov-13-09 04:23 PM   #89 
                          - An auto immune reaction could also explain why some develop GBS  mzmolly   Nov-13-09 04:49 PM   #100 
  - that was 1976 vaccine. this is a different one. Yes, they have changed vaccines since then  uppityperson   Nov-13-09 01:52 PM   #29 
  - How have they changed the vaccine?  mzmolly   Nov-13-09 01:58 PM   #31 
  - It is a bacteria in chicken eggs (Campylobacter) that causes GBS....  ingac70   Nov-13-09 02:18 PM   #35 
  - For starters...  HuckleB   Nov-16-09 05:28 PM   #113 
     - The article you posted touts the safety of mercury in vaccines as well.  mzmolly   Nov-16-09 11:28 PM   #121 
  - They still use eggs to make it....  ingac70   Nov-13-09 02:15 PM   #34 
     - Interesting  mzmolly   Nov-13-09 02:33 PM   #43 
     - I disagree.  HuckleB   Nov-13-09 02:38 PM   #45 
     - ....  ingac70   Nov-13-09 02:46 PM   #49 
        - What is the conclusion of that single study?  HuckleB   Nov-13-09 02:56 PM   #56 
           - What happened to....  ingac70   Nov-13-09 03:00 PM   #60 
              - Thanks for proving that your only point in being here is to play games.  HuckleB   Nov-13-09 03:06 PM   #62 
     - Again, you make a big assumption about campylobacter, all by itself.  HuckleB   Nov-16-09 05:31 PM   #115 
  - '76 vaccine != '09 vaccine...nt  SidDithers   Nov-13-09 02:59 PM   #59 
  - Not really...  ingac70   Nov-13-09 03:02 PM   #61 
     - Are you suggesting chicken eggs cause GBS?...  SidDithers   Nov-13-09 03:13 PM   #66 
        - Campylobacter causes GBS...  ingac70   Nov-13-09 03:16 PM   #69 
           - MANY things cause GBS, including cdiff and "wtf".  uppityperson   Nov-13-09 04:16 PM   #87 
              - .....  ingac70   Nov-13-09 04:25 PM   #90 
              - here...  uppityperson   Nov-13-09 04:29 PM   #93 
                 - The Mayo indicates that the bacteria in question is the most common  mzmolly   Nov-13-09 04:51 PM   #101 
              - Exactly.  HuckleB   Nov-13-09 04:27 PM   #91 
  - It's amazing how many people had a relative who got GBS in 1976.  HuckleB   Nov-13-09 03:07 PM   #63 
     - And how many people have told you that?  ingac70   Nov-13-09 03:22 PM   #75 
     - You can make whatever assumptions you want to make.  HuckleB   Nov-13-09 03:28 PM   #81 
     - It's amazing how many people were priestesses or shamens in past lives.  uppityperson   Nov-13-09 04:18 PM   #88 
     - No doubt about it.  HuckleB   Nov-13-09 04:28 PM   #92 
        - I did a past life regerssion once, many yrs back, got looked at funny when I came up with only  uppityperson   Nov-13-09 04:32 PM   #95 
           - Hmmm.  HuckleB   Nov-13-09 05:17 PM   #104 
     - My father caught it  conscious evolution   Nov-20-09 07:09 PM   #157 
  - Dont Blame Flu Shots for All Ills, Officials Say  HuckleB   Nov-13-09 02:33 PM   #42 
  - Would be nice if the same officials would actually investigate  mzmolly   Nov-13-09 02:45 PM   #47 
     - Should we investigate every illness that pops up?  HuckleB   Nov-13-09 02:50 PM   #51 
     - When people die, from like causes after a particular intervention, YES.  mzmolly   Nov-13-09 03:15 PM   #67 
        - I really don't know what you want to be done.  HuckleB   Nov-13-09 03:16 PM   #70 
           - As I've said  mzmolly   Nov-13-09 03:23 PM   #76 
              - Screening for the bacteria when?  HuckleB   Nov-13-09 03:28 PM   #82 
                 - I don't much care  mzmolly   Nov-13-09 03:33 PM   #83 
                    - It should be part of the quality control process. n/t  ingac70   Nov-13-09 03:40 PM   #84 
                    - So how do you know that it isn't already done?  HuckleB   Nov-13-09 03:42 PM   #85 
                       - I can't find any indication that is is.  mzmolly   Nov-13-09 04:34 PM   #96 
                          - I can't see how a vaccine would be created without such quality controls.  HuckleB   Nov-13-09 05:15 PM   #103 
                             - I'll tell you what, I'll try to reach the manufacturer(s)  mzmolly   Nov-13-09 05:28 PM   #107 
                                - Well, ok then.  HuckleB   Nov-13-09 05:48 PM   #109 
                                   - You as well.  mzmolly   Nov-13-09 06:28 PM   #110 
     - They can't....  ingac70   Nov-13-09 02:51 PM   #52 
        - People do know the truth.  HuckleB   Nov-13-09 02:58 PM   #57 
        - I'd be more likely to be vaccinated if they would take precautionary measures.  mzmolly   Nov-13-09 03:26 PM   #78 
        - There's an apparent *additional* approach for protection against H1N1:  tiptoe   Nov-13-09 03:26 PM   #79 
  - From before the trials began. This shows the differences in surveillance between 1976 and today.  HuckleB   Nov-16-09 05:47 PM   #116 
  - Did you see this part?  mzmolly   Nov-16-09 11:36 PM   #124 
     - Yes.  HuckleB   Nov-16-09 11:41 PM   #127 
     - As do I. And, I appreciate an honest look at the big vaccine picture.  mzmolly   Nov-16-09 11:43 PM   #129 
     - What really bothers me...  LeftishBrit   Nov-17-09 06:30 AM   #133 
        - What about the anti-vaccine framing?  mzmolly   Nov-17-09 01:54 PM   #136 
           - I don't usually use the term 'anti-vaccine' unless I am referring to a person or group that  LeftishBrit   Nov-20-09 04:43 PM   #154 
              - I've heard all the arguments for mass vaccination before.  mzmolly   Nov-20-09 07:38 PM   #158 
                 - If they are made universally available and free...  LeftishBrit   Nov-21-09 02:50 AM   #161 
                    - Over 90% of the US population is in compliance.  mzmolly   Nov-21-09 02:55 PM   #162 
  - I got GBS in 1976 from the swine flue vaccine  Christa   Nov-17-09 03:53 PM   #140 
  - my friends dad got the swine flu shot back then  WillYourVoteBCounted   Nov-17-09 10:37 PM   #142 
  - Oh my,  mzmolly   Nov-17-09 11:21 PM   #144 
  - WHO Update Re: Safety of Pandemic Vaccines  HuckleB   Nov-19-09 08:27 PM   #149 

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