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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-19-11 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #66
67. if I'm reading this correctly ...
The text above the link in your post is your own. Your expanded version:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/06/19/986695/-Unnatu...

In view of your point about language and the appeal to the right brain in your other thread, I find this statement curious:

"Cheap ultrasound tests are used to tell them that the mother is carrying a girl."

"The mother"?

Strikes me that this is the kind of language used by the anti-choice brigade, and designed expressly to appeal to the right brain in order to evoke the desired emotional response, i.e. a negative response to the idea of abortion and the freedom to choose abortion.

A slip? ;) Dunno ...

"Call these 'fetuses' or 'unborn children' or 'girls.' The result is the same. Millions of very, very young females are being killed."

That's also a very odd statement. It very much does matter what one calls "these". The actual fact is that millions of births of female human beings are being prevented. No "children" or "girls" are being killed, and equating the "killing" of a fetus with the killing of a human being is not exactly respectful of women or helpful to women's cause, no matter who does it.

I do agree that sex-selection abortions are a social problem. It's a problem of the chicken-and-egg variety.

Pregnancies are terminated when the fetus is female because women are both devalued in ethical terms and, in practical terms, genuinely of lower value to families. To solve the problem, the approach has to be two-pronged (with many offshoots). In China, for instance, it's time for a universal old-age pension scheme; this would go some distance toward eliminating a couple's need for a son, or for children period. In other societies, it means working a lot harder to achieve economic equality for women, which involves enhancing the value the society places on women as human beings with equal dignity and worth as such, so that a daughter can then be seen to be as "valuable" in economic terms as a son.

The adoption of family planning practices is a somewhat parallel example. Couples in developing societies do not begin to limit family size until they have the degree of economic prosperity that frees them to some extent from dependence on children for their economic well-being. Limiting family size in turn enhances their economic prosperity, but most people won't adopt that practice until the evidence of their ability to survive if they do that is present.

So to deter sex-selection abortion that favours male births, couples need to have evidence that a daughter will be as valuable to them as a son, and that means enhancing women's economic and social status to the point where that is true. And of course the women in the couples need to have the personal and social and economic power to make their own choices to overcome residual social and familial preference for sons if they wish to do so.
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  -Is abortion for the purpose of sex selection immoral? Pterodactyl  Jun-20-11 08:19 PM   #0 
  - Every time they make the decision to give up a girl  Drale   Jun-20-11 08:22 PM   #1 
  - IMHO China could use some form of "major population disaster" - one that  kestrel91316   Jun-20-11 09:45 PM   #17 
  - Huh? Care to elaborate?  Pterodactyl   Jun-20-11 09:59 PM   #20 
     - I'm just saying that they have a huge population, and it is going to pose a HUGE  kestrel91316   Jun-21-11 10:40 AM   #22 
        - OK. For a moment there, I thought you might have been hoping for the deaths of millions of people!  Pterodactyl   Jun-21-11 09:18 PM   #25 
  - +1  jul61252   Jul-02-11 03:12 PM   #31 
  - I would think it would create more social problems rather than a population disaster  Starboard Tack   Jul-30-11 04:43 PM   #50 
  - In my mind, I think it is.  sakabatou   Jun-20-11 08:23 PM   #2 
  - Is it immoral to attempt to conceive a particular sex?  uppityperson   Jun-21-11 02:19 PM   #24 
     - No more immoral than wishing, hoping or praying for one or the other.  Starboard Tack   Jul-30-11 04:50 PM   #52 
  - I don't know...  CaliforniaPeggy   Jun-20-11 08:24 PM   #3 
  - Abortion is between a woman and her doctor  Ohio Joe   Jun-20-11 08:25 PM   #4 
  - +1000  jul61252   Jul-02-11 03:13 PM   #32 
  - say buh bye to jul61252!  iverglas   Aug-21-11 02:26 AM   #59 
     - Wow. that is something.  uppityperson   Aug-21-11 01:43 PM   #60 
        - nah, seems to have been random  iverglas   Aug-21-11 02:50 PM   #61 
  - Abortion is between a woman and herself  Starboard Tack   Jul-30-11 04:54 PM   #53 
  - I don't think the standard should be pure morality, but rather ethics.  no_hypocrisy   Jun-20-11 08:27 PM   #5 
  - Immoral is a slippery term.  TheWraith   Jun-20-11 08:29 PM   #6 
  - Should humans engage in breeding programs??  Angry Dragon   Jun-20-11 08:30 PM   #7 
  - My neighbor has adopted three Chinese girls.  Brianboru   Jun-20-11 08:30 PM   #8 
  - Your neighbor is AWESOME!  Pterodactyl   Jun-20-11 08:42 PM   #11 
     - They are great kids - and two other families also adopted girls.  Brianboru   Jun-20-11 09:15 PM   #15 
  - Depends on what you use as your moral compass.  ZombieHorde   Jun-20-11 08:32 PM   #9 
  - It seems here the goal is to only give birth to boys at the expense of girls.  Pterodactyl   Jun-20-11 09:02 PM   #14 
     - That is goal of the abortions, I was referring to the goal of one's morality.  ZombieHorde   Jun-20-11 10:16 PM   #21 
        - Yeah, that's what I was saying. Their goal is boys.  Pterodactyl   Jun-21-11 09:19 PM   #26 
           - The boys are more likely to be a means to an ultimate goal. nt  ZombieHorde   Jun-21-11 10:39 PM   #28 
  - What's immoral is the favoring of males that engenders this sort of behavior.  snagglepuss   Jun-20-11 08:34 PM   #10 
  - + 1,000! nt  left coaster   Jun-20-11 08:51 PM   #13 
  - Exactly. But by the same token, no good can come of forced childbearing.  kestrel91316   Jun-20-11 09:48 PM   #19 
  - Not when it's done because the parents carry a sex-specific genetic disease marker. n/t  Ian David   Jun-20-11 08:45 PM   #12 
  - Abortion is a private decision. If a woman feels that she cannot love and  kestrel91316   Jun-20-11 09:42 PM   #16 
  - Either sex selection is moral or it is immoral - abortion is largely irrelevant  saras   Jun-20-11 09:47 PM   #18 
  - Is attempting to conceive one sex immoral?  uppityperson   Jun-21-11 02:17 PM   #23 
     - Great Post  libguy_6731   Aug-06-11 03:28 PM   #58 
  - The answer is yes. Yes, it is.  Pterodactyl   Jun-21-11 09:22 PM   #27 
  - Using that logic, do you feel all abortions are immoral? Since they get "deselected" for not being  uppityperson   Jul-02-11 05:39 PM   #33 
     - Yes, nearly all would be.  Pterodactyl   Jul-06-11 08:14 PM   #35 
        - In what case is an abortion not "immoral"? When, if ever, should they be legal?  uppityperson   Jul-08-11 11:56 AM   #37 
        - In cases of self defense.  Pterodactyl   Jul-08-11 02:20 PM   #38 
           - self defense how? Thank you. Not sure what you mean, if you could clarify  uppityperson   Jul-08-11 02:21 PM   #39 
              - When the mother's life is endangered.  Pterodactyl   Jul-13-11 09:17 PM   #41 
                 - You do not think early abortions are moral, only late term ones if the mother's life is endangered.  uppityperson   Jul-16-11 09:52 PM   #48 
        - So disheartening  musette_sf   Jul-10-11 08:18 PM   #40 
           - That does not mean it is a good thing. America can do better.  Pterodactyl   Jul-13-11 09:19 PM   #42 
              - Autonomy for women IS a good thing.  musette_sf   Jul-14-11 02:29 PM   #43 
                 - Deleted sub-thread  Name removed   Jul-14-11 08:45 PM   #44 
                 - What if someday women didn't even feel they had to do it?  Pterodactyl   Jul-16-11 10:20 AM   #45 
                    - Not every woman wants to or can be pregnant and raise a child, or risk her life  Lars39   Jul-16-11 11:03 AM   #46 
                    - because the alternatives would be, um, what?  musette_sf   Jul-16-11 12:33 PM   #47 
                    - How about adoption by a responsible family?  Pterodactyl   Aug-31-11 09:07 PM   #62 
                       - if i don't want to be pregnant, no kind of adoption is acceptable  Scout   Sep-01-11 09:32 AM   #63 
                    - Had to do what? Bear a child if they didn't want to? Or feel they "had" to have an abortion?  uppityperson   Jul-16-11 09:55 PM   #49 
  - Is A Facelift For The Purpose of Looking Better Immoral?  zorahopkins   Jul-01-11 05:17 PM   #29 
  - no  jul61252   Jul-02-11 12:19 PM   #30 
  - how do you define immoral?  peace17   Jul-04-11 01:43 AM   #34 
  - So what do YOU think?  Pterodactyl   Jul-06-11 08:16 PM   #36 
  - I am 100% pro-choice but using abortion as a form of birth/population control is immoral  Starboard Tack   Jul-30-11 04:47 PM   #51 
  - I don't understand. You are pro-choice yet using abortion for birth control is immoral?  uppityperson   Jul-30-11 05:00 PM   #54 
     - Sorry, meant to say as a primary method of birth control.  Starboard Tack   Jul-30-11 05:48 PM   #55 
        - Thank you. Sounds like you view abortion as immoral but ok in some cases  uppityperson   Jul-30-11 05:58 PM   #56 
           - I would call it immoral if used for gender selection or population control  Starboard Tack   Jul-30-11 07:41 PM   #57 
  - no, it's not. wise in the long run, on a societal level? no. but no more immoral than any abortion.  Scout   Sep-01-11 09:36 AM   #64 
  - No, not immoral, but probably unwise  NOMOREDRUGWAR   Sep-02-11 04:14 PM   #65 
  - LIVE topic -- 163,000,000 Missing Women in Asia  vets74   Sep-08-11 09:58 AM   #66 
  - if I'm reading this correctly ...  iverglas   Sep-19-11 09:08 AM   #67 
     - In conjunction with that poster's other topic that words, terms, matter, it is oddd.  uppityperson   Sep-19-11 03:05 PM   #68 
  - Abortion is a medical procedure  tgal   Sep-19-11 03:09 PM   #69 
 

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