JerseygirlCT
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Fri Nov-17-06 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #96 |
| 108. You really don't think people would find plenty of other things |
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to kill each other over?
Religious differences are an excuse, not a cause. I'm afraid we seem to be addicted to conflict.
|
| -Faith Won't Heal a Divided World |
Freedom_from_Chains |
Nov-16-06 09:27 AM |
#0 |
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Harris doesn't think faith will |
TallahasseeGrannie |
Nov-16-06 09:35 AM |
#1 |
 -
He provides damn solid reasons for his view. |
greyl |
Nov-16-06 09:44 AM |
#2 |
| -
Every time I post one of these they become damn silent |
Freedom_from_Chains |
Nov-16-06 10:27 AM |
#3 |
| -
Well, arguments against Harris aren't just lying around everywhere, so |
greyl |
Nov-16-06 10:49 AM |
#7 |
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You're an optimist! |
Freedom_from_Chains |
Nov-16-06 10:51 AM |
#8 |
| -
Why do anyone of us need to prove anything to you? |
kwassa |
Nov-16-06 01:37 PM |
#15 |
| -
Exactly |
kiahzero |
Nov-16-06 01:41 PM |
#17 |
| -
I'm curious what you think the difference is between spreading beliefs |
greyl |
Nov-16-06 03:03 PM |
#22 |
| -
In the context of religion? |
kiahzero |
Nov-16-06 04:44 PM |
#25 |
| -
No, not in religious context - including it. |
greyl |
Nov-17-06 09:01 AM |
#62 |
| -
It's not a cop-out. |
kiahzero |
Nov-17-06 10:39 AM |
#72 |
| -
Faults seen in Harris's argument can't be replicated for others? |
greyl |
Nov-17-06 01:10 PM |
#83 |
| -
Wait... what? |
kiahzero |
Nov-17-06 02:27 PM |
#99 |
| -
"there's no need for me to justify that belief to others." |
Zhade |
Nov-17-06 09:43 PM |
#144 |
| -
Explain something to me |
TallahasseeGrannie |
Nov-17-06 08:19 AM |
#59 |
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But would you go to a crochet forum and refuse to discuss your techniques? n/t |
Finder |
Nov-17-06 01:58 PM |
#93 |
| -
Ahhhhh "I see, said the blind man!" |
TallahasseeGrannie |
Nov-17-06 02:38 PM |
#101 |
| -
You are always open to discussion...both sides luv ya... |
Finder |
Nov-17-06 02:59 PM |
#104 |
| -
Thank you very much |
TallahasseeGrannie |
Nov-17-06 06:35 PM |
#129 |
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The Abrahamic-centric notion that all theists believe in Hell, for one. |
kiahzero |
Nov-16-06 10:30 AM |
#4 |
| -
O.K. so when you look at the major religions of the world |
Freedom_from_Chains |
Nov-16-06 10:45 AM |
#5 |
| -
Your estimates appear to be off |
kiahzero |
Nov-16-06 01:46 PM |
#19 |
| -
Didn't notice this earlier. |
trotsky |
Nov-17-06 01:28 PM |
#87 |
| -
Buddhism and Hinduism have the "same" thing. |
greyl |
Nov-16-06 10:47 AM |
#6 |
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Yeah, I have been really concerned lately about those Buddhist |
Freedom_from_Chains |
Nov-16-06 10:53 AM |
#9 |
| -
Pol Pot was a Buddhist |
kwassa |
Nov-16-06 02:14 PM |
#20 |
| -
He was raised as one... |
catbert836 |
Nov-16-06 04:54 PM |
#27 |
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Actually, he attended Catholic School as a child. n/t |
Finder |
Nov-16-06 05:19 PM |
#29 |
| -
The medieval Japanese used Buddhism as an excuse for some pretty |
Lydia Leftcoast |
Nov-16-06 08:00 PM |
#40 |
| -
Well said. (n/t) |
kiahzero |
Nov-16-06 08:07 PM |
#44 |
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a central function of the samurai? Guarding crops. nt |
greyl |
Nov-17-06 09:43 AM |
#65 |
| -
And that is germane to the discussion exactly how? |
Lydia Leftcoast |
Nov-17-06 11:49 AM |
#80 |
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Locking up the food is a policy that distinguishes our culture |
greyl |
Nov-17-06 01:13 PM |
#84 |
| -
How are you to know he wasn't practicing? |
kwassa |
Nov-16-06 08:44 PM |
#46 |
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Interesting thing here, kwassa. |
trotsky |
Nov-17-06 03:07 PM |
#106 |
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Though I would agree that he wasn't a practicing Buddhist |
Dorian Gray |
Nov-17-06 04:01 PM |
#114 |
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This just devolves into the "No true Scotsman" fallacy. |
trotsky |
Nov-17-06 04:34 PM |
#128 |
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Nope... |
Dorian Gray |
Nov-18-06 01:14 AM |
#156 |
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Are you calling me a hypocrite? |
kwassa |
Nov-17-06 04:10 PM |
#121 |
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Just wanted you to explain the apparent double standard. |
trotsky |
Nov-17-06 04:27 PM |
#125 |
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Not at all. |
kiahzero |
Nov-16-06 12:13 PM |
#10 |
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On the contrary. |
greyl |
Nov-16-06 01:25 PM |
#12 |
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It's not eternal |
kiahzero |
Nov-16-06 01:29 PM |
#13 |
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Depends on which variety of Buddhism you're talking about |
Lydia Leftcoast |
Nov-16-06 08:06 PM |
#43 |
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Every salvationist religion has varieties, but the crucial similarity remains. |
greyl |
Nov-17-06 09:34 AM |
#64 |
| -
Name the five "salvationist" religions |
kiahzero |
Nov-17-06 10:49 AM |
#74 |
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If Christians aren't afraid of Hell, that's no problem either, correct? |
greyl |
Nov-17-06 01:09 PM |
#82 |
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Strawman |
kiahzero |
Nov-17-06 02:24 PM |
#97 |
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Since when is hell an "Abrahamic" notion? |
struggle4progress |
Nov-17-06 09:03 PM |
#135 |
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Since about 100 BCE. (n/t) |
kiahzero |
Nov-17-06 09:09 PM |
#136 |
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It certainly doesn't seem to be one of Abraham's notions. |
struggle4progress |
Nov-17-06 09:17 PM |
#137 |
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That's not what "Abrahamic religion" means. |
kiahzero |
Nov-17-06 09:20 PM |
#138 |
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Of course. Incidently, Judaism isn't united on the subject of hell. |
struggle4progress |
Nov-17-06 09:34 PM |
#139 |
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I believe I actually argued that somewhere in this thread. |
kiahzero |
Nov-17-06 09:38 PM |
#141 |
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Ah, yes. #97. Sorry. Didn't see it before |
struggle4progress |
Nov-17-06 09:42 PM |
#143 |
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The thread is growing at a rather rapid pace |
kiahzero |
Nov-17-06 09:45 PM |
#145 |
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Actually I kind of like his writings |
TallahasseeGrannie |
Nov-16-06 12:37 PM |
#11 |
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You have an internal dialogue which bears fruit, correct? |
greyl |
Nov-16-06 01:35 PM |
#14 |
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You are way, way outta my league now, |
TallahasseeGrannie |
Nov-16-06 01:44 PM |
#18 |
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What does being a creativity facilitator have to do with it? :) |
greyl |
Nov-17-06 08:46 AM |
#60 |
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I'm willing to bet that TG teaches her students truths that can't be |
Ron_Green |
Nov-16-06 04:17 PM |
#24 |
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Thank you very much |
TallahasseeGrannie |
Nov-16-06 04:59 PM |
#28 |
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What is "maieutic teaching?" |
Dorian Gray |
Nov-17-06 10:09 AM |
#67 |
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Quite the opposite, really. |
kiahzero |
Nov-17-06 10:51 AM |
#75 |
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Thanks Kiahzero |
Dorian Gray |
Nov-17-06 04:04 PM |
#116 |
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I was too, and never heard it till later. |
greyl |
Nov-17-06 01:22 PM |
#85 |
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Yes, formal logic can prove just about anything, but it's all about the axioms |
kiahzero |
Nov-16-06 01:39 PM |
#16 |
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I don't think so. Can you give me an example |
greyl |
Nov-17-06 08:51 AM |
#61 |
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I was only discussing validity. |
kiahzero |
Nov-17-06 10:34 AM |
#71 |
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Well, that's the rub. That means a better phrasing would be: |
greyl |
Nov-17-06 01:28 PM |
#86 |
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Fallacies generally refer to the validity of an argument, not the soundness. (n/t) |
kiahzero |
Nov-17-06 02:26 PM |
#98 |
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Generally? That means you admit the existence of |
greyl |
Nov-20-06 08:25 AM |
#173 |
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Just what I was thinking! |
JerseygirlCT |
Nov-16-06 02:47 PM |
#21 |
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Actually, Harris pretty effectively destroyed the tolerant/moderate viewpoint. |
trotsky |
Nov-16-06 04:08 PM |
#23 |
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Hardly |
kiahzero |
Nov-16-06 04:48 PM |
#26 |
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You misstate his position. |
trotsky |
Nov-16-06 06:50 PM |
#30 |
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A number of reasons: |
kiahzero |
Nov-16-06 07:05 PM |
#31 |
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So you're saying there is one, agreed-upon, 100% certain interpretation? |
trotsky |
Nov-16-06 07:40 PM |
#34 |
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No |
kiahzero |
Nov-16-06 07:42 PM |
#36 |
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Why do you have to misstate Harris' position? |
trotsky |
Nov-16-06 07:48 PM |
#38 |
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Maybe I will write him to try and figure out what the hell he means, then. |
kiahzero |
Nov-16-06 08:05 PM |
#42 |
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Alternative interpretations have existed as long as the texts |
JerseygirlCT |
Nov-16-06 08:12 PM |
#45 |
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Well sure they've been arguing. |
trotsky |
Nov-16-06 09:10 PM |
#48 |
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What's the difference between scholarship and |
JerseygirlCT |
Nov-17-06 07:13 AM |
#55 |
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You're misunderstanding. |
trotsky |
Nov-17-06 07:41 AM |
#57 |
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Scholarship is academic and secular... |
Finder |
Nov-17-06 01:05 PM |
#81 |
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I should have read yours first! |
JerseygirlCT |
Nov-16-06 07:17 PM |
#33 |
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I disagree |
JerseygirlCT |
Nov-16-06 07:16 PM |
#32 |
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Nope, he's not doing that. |
trotsky |
Nov-16-06 07:42 PM |
#35 |
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He is arguing that only fundamentalists "fully embrace" scripture. |
kiahzero |
Nov-16-06 07:44 PM |
#37 |
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Nope. |
trotsky |
Nov-16-06 07:49 PM |
#39 |
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I don't think so |
JerseygirlCT |
Nov-16-06 08:03 PM |
#41 |
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Sorry, not reading it the same way you are. |
trotsky |
Nov-16-06 09:08 PM |
#47 |
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What is he saying about moderates, then? |
kiahzero |
Nov-16-06 09:11 PM |
#49 |
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That you're enabling the extremists. |
trotsky |
Nov-16-06 09:19 PM |
#50 |
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So "at face value" is the only valid way to interpret the texts? |
kiahzero |
Nov-16-06 09:21 PM |
#51 |
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So the Christians in 300CE *didn't* believe in a virgin birth? |
trotsky |
Nov-16-06 09:24 PM |
#52 |
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Your assurances are misplaced |
kiahzero |
Nov-16-06 10:01 PM |
#53 |
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Hold on there. |
trotsky |
Nov-17-06 07:38 AM |
#56 |
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I'm not Christian |
kiahzero |
Nov-17-06 10:24 AM |
#70 |
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Actually you backed way off. |
trotsky |
Nov-17-06 10:45 AM |
#73 |
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I think you're misstating the liberal position on the Bible. |
kiahzero |
Nov-17-06 11:08 AM |
#76 |
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There is no one "liberal" position on the bible. |
trotsky |
Nov-17-06 11:22 AM |
#77 |
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No, I'm not saying there's only one position. |
kiahzero |
Nov-17-06 11:29 AM |
#78 |
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Sure you are. |
trotsky |
Nov-17-06 11:37 AM |
#79 |
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And again, entirely possible |
JerseygirlCT |
Nov-17-06 01:40 PM |
#91 |
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Sounds to me that such a god |
trotsky |
Nov-17-06 02:10 PM |
#95 |
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I don't think it's God's choice -- I think it's our human limitations |
JerseygirlCT |
Nov-17-06 03:32 PM |
#109 |
| -
So, god doesn't know about these limitations? |
trotsky |
Nov-17-06 04:31 PM |
#127 |
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If God manipulated events in the way you suggest, there |
JerseygirlCT |
Nov-17-06 07:26 PM |
#131 |
| -
Ah yes, the old free will conundrum. |
trotsky |
Nov-17-06 09:41 PM |
#142 |
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You continue to base you view on the idea that God |
JerseygirlCT |
Nov-18-06 07:11 AM |
#162 |
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An active god is not necessary to see the problem. |
trotsky |
Nov-18-06 10:37 AM |
#166 |
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The short version: "All believers pick and choose what they believe... |
Zhade |
Nov-17-06 10:03 PM |
#149 |
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Yup! |
trotsky |
Nov-18-06 10:47 AM |
#169 |
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"They all prayed to god and got different answers?" |
JerseygirlCT |
Nov-17-06 01:33 PM |
#89 |
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And then they went and killed each other over those different answers. |
trotsky |
Nov-17-06 02:11 PM |
#96 |
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You really don't think people would find plenty of other things |
JerseygirlCT |
Nov-17-06 03:29 PM |
#108 |
| -
Stay on topic, please. |
trotsky |
Nov-17-06 04:28 PM |
#126 |
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You branched off here, I just responded. |
JerseygirlCT |
Nov-17-06 07:28 PM |
#132 |
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Right. Limitations. |
trotsky |
Nov-17-06 09:37 PM |
#140 |
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It's a sneaky way of blaming God, isn't it? nt |
greyl |
Nov-18-06 06:40 AM |
#158 |
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Yeah, interesting, isn't it? |
trotsky |
Nov-18-06 10:39 AM |
#167 |
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The necessary flip-side of free will nt |
JerseygirlCT |
Nov-18-06 07:12 AM |
#163 |
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"humanity's limitations" ! Goddammit. |
greyl |
Nov-18-06 06:31 AM |
#157 |
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Reasoning isn't the same thing as "secular" you know |
JerseygirlCT |
Nov-17-06 07:10 AM |
#54 |
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See post #57. n/t |
trotsky |
Nov-17-06 07:44 AM |
#58 |
| -
Pardon me, may I butt in here? |
cosmik debris |
Nov-17-06 07:10 PM |
#130 |
| -
Clarify which remark? |
trotsky |
Nov-17-06 09:51 PM |
#146 |
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Actually, the Free Exercise clause does privilege religious exercise (n/t) |
kiahzero |
Nov-17-06 09:55 PM |
#147 |
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It enumerates it as a right, sure. Like the right to bear arms, or speak freely. |
trotsky |
Nov-17-06 10:02 PM |
#148 |
| -
That's a secular law, though. |
kiahzero |
Nov-17-06 10:04 PM |
#150 |
| -
Um, yes? |
trotsky |
Nov-17-06 10:05 PM |
#151 |
| -
It was a joke. |
kiahzero |
Nov-17-06 10:09 PM |
#152 |
| -
Okey dokey. |
trotsky |
Nov-17-06 10:12 PM |
#153 |
| -
This remark: |
cosmik debris |
Nov-17-06 10:37 PM |
#154 |
| -
Read Harris' full article. |
trotsky |
Nov-18-06 10:42 AM |
#168 |
| -
But isn't the book supposedly the word of God? |
WakingLife |
Nov-17-06 09:13 AM |
#63 |
| -
This is the problem... |
Dorian Gray |
Nov-17-06 10:24 AM |
#69 |
| -
That's just it -- we're absolutely not |
JerseygirlCT |
Nov-17-06 01:29 PM |
#88 |
| -
I'd love it if |
greyl |
Nov-17-06 01:50 PM |
#92 |
| -
You know, if I had exhibited even a part of the disdain for |
JerseygirlCT |
Nov-17-06 03:26 PM |
#107 |
| -
If I've torn your view apart, fantastic. |
greyl |
Nov-18-06 06:51 AM |
#159 |
| -
But I don't want to. |
Dorian Gray |
Nov-17-06 04:13 PM |
#123 |
| -
All liberal Christians I'm aware of talk about "identifying bullshit" |
greyl |
Nov-18-06 06:54 AM |
#160 |
| -
How do you know Paul existed? |
Finder |
Nov-17-06 03:45 PM |
#111 |
| -
You don't know what we do accept and what we don't |
kwassa |
Nov-17-06 03:54 PM |
#113 |
| -
The response is to post 88. n/t |
Finder |
Nov-17-06 04:05 PM |
#118 |
| -
What do you accept? n/t |
Finder |
Nov-17-06 04:07 PM |
#119 |
| -
No, I accept that within what is written, truth can be found |
JerseygirlCT |
Nov-17-06 07:33 PM |
#133 |
| -
Exactly, JerseygirlCT |
Dorian Gray |
Nov-17-06 04:09 PM |
#120 |
| -
But the official Catholic definition of 'inspired' goes beyond that |
muriel_volestrangler |
Nov-18-06 07:09 AM |
#161 |
| -
Well, having grown up RC, I think it's pretty safe to say |
JerseygirlCT |
Nov-18-06 07:15 AM |
#164 |
| -
Actually, the RCC discourages reading the scriptures without a guide... |
Finder |
Nov-18-06 10:01 AM |
#165 |
| -
How do you know that is what Harris meant? |
kwassa |
Nov-18-06 11:07 AM |
#170 |
| -
What do you think "Scriptural ignorance" means? n/t |
Finder |
Nov-18-06 02:10 PM |
#171 |
| -
Sorry, but I think this is your own personal interpretation of Harris |
kwassa |
Nov-18-06 09:03 PM |
#172 |
| -
Especially when you take the |
Dorian Gray |
Nov-17-06 10:17 AM |
#68 |
| -
I agree. And I find the idea that using literary tools |
JerseygirlCT |
Nov-17-06 01:37 PM |
#90 |
| -
The End of Faith was never sold as a Perfect Book, yet |
greyl |
Nov-17-06 02:01 PM |
#94 |
| -
I'm disagreeing with the argument presented. |
kiahzero |
Nov-17-06 02:31 PM |
#100 |
| -
First of all, what is the premise you are calling false?... |
Finder |
Nov-17-06 02:49 PM |
#102 |
| -
This premise: |
kiahzero |
Nov-17-06 02:54 PM |
#103 |
| -
This premise is false: |
kwassa |
Nov-17-06 03:02 PM |
#105 |
| -
Not at all...let me ask you.... |
Finder |
Nov-17-06 03:33 PM |
#110 |
| -
Required by who? |
kwassa |
Nov-17-06 03:51 PM |
#112 |
| -
Does it matter which God? n/t |
Finder |
Nov-17-06 04:02 PM |
#115 |
| -
There is no God but God |
kwassa |
Nov-17-06 04:05 PM |
#117 |
| -
What do you base that on? |
Finder |
Nov-17-06 04:12 PM |
#122 |
| -
You and I are on the same page in this discussion |
Dorian Gray |
Nov-17-06 04:17 PM |
#124 |
| -
Thank you! |
JerseygirlCT |
Nov-17-06 07:36 PM |
#134 |
| -
That one caught be off guard, too, Grannie! |
Dorian Gray |
Nov-17-06 10:03 AM |
#66 |
| -
I don't think faith itself will heal it. |
Elrond Hubbard |
Nov-17-06 10:47 PM |
#155 |
| -
Love, and only Love? No, that's woefully inadequate as stated. |
greyl |
Nov-20-06 08:42 AM |
#174 |
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