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Reply #104: Of course you let individuals define themselves. Political, not tolerance. [View All]

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kwassa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #101
104. Of course you let individuals define themselves. Political, not tolerance.

Atheists have no definition, so there is nothing to be lost by letting each define themselves. There is no commonly-held belief, according to them, so there is nothing to define.

Theists have common beliefs, different beliefs, conflicting beliefs, even among those that say they are of the same religion. Christianity is extremely complex that way, which the quotes you posted point out.

It is politically expedient for some atheists to claim that anyone is a Christian who claims to be. This allows them to ascribe the crimes of a few who claim to be Christian to all the believers in the faith, which is important for political purposes, not purposes of tolerance. It allows some atheists to claim general characteristics of the faith that are not true, to claim moral or intellectual superiority, or to sometimes justify intolerance on their side.

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  -Where do you stand on the issue of faith versus works? pnwmom  Jun-01-06 01:12 AM   #0 
  - Why should you have to belive in Christ to be "saved"?  panader0   Jun-01-06 01:17 AM   #1 
  - I had already changed the post because that is not the issue  pnwmom   Jun-01-06 01:25 AM   #4 
     - So, Who is to judge?  TomInTib   Jun-01-06 01:30 AM   #7 
        - Each of us has to judge for ourselves. There's no other way.  pnwmom   Jun-01-06 01:35 AM   #11 
           - Good for you and great for your children..n/t  TomInTib   Jun-01-06 01:44 AM   #16 
              - I hope so. But this is an awfully materialistic world and my  pnwmom   Jun-01-06 01:51 AM   #17 
                 - Aww.., come on..  TomInTib   Jun-01-06 02:04 AM   #18 
                    - Okay, I'll try that.  pnwmom   Jun-01-06 02:26 AM   #20 
  - Works..  TomInTib   Jun-01-06 01:20 AM   #2 
  - Agreed- Works  panader0   Jun-01-06 01:22 AM   #3 
  - Well, I'd rather be around the person who does good things.  pnwmom   Jun-01-06 01:29 AM   #6 
  - The whole idea of "faith" turns me off  Erika   Jun-01-06 01:28 AM   #5 
  - Did you know -- I'm not kidding -- that we had a faith-based  pnwmom   Jun-01-06 01:32 AM   #8 
     - Exactly. I'll keep my tax $ and you can keep the "faith"  Erika   Jun-01-06 01:34 AM   #9 
        - Me, neither.  pnwmom   Jun-01-06 01:38 AM   #13 
           - Good idea. Wiccans need to establish a charity and apply for federal  lindisfarne   Jun-01-06 02:44 AM   #22 
              - Very interesting!  pnwmom   Jun-01-06 03:00 AM   #23 
  - Deeds of faith, not works of law  sandnsea   Jun-01-06 01:34 AM   #10 
  - Yeah...Bunk is a good word for it  Erika   Jun-01-06 01:37 AM   #12 
  - I know what you mean about everything going bonkers at the same  pnwmom   Jun-01-06 01:43 AM   #14 
     - Yeah, pretty much  sandnsea   Jun-01-06 03:28 AM   #24 
  - works. a life without good works is nothing in my opinion. Works  roguevalley   Jun-01-06 01:44 AM   #15 
  - a bit of both  Wetzelbill   Jun-01-06 02:04 AM   #19 
  - Would "faith in christ" be of any use if you didn't live in accordance  lindisfarne   Jun-01-06 02:40 AM   #21 
  - Of what benefit is a lifetime of good works,  BuffyTheFundieSlayer   Jun-01-06 04:13 AM   #25 
  - But that's precisely the benefit.  pnwmom   Jun-01-06 04:30 AM   #26 
  - I really shouldn't care  BuffyTheFundieSlayer   Jun-01-06 10:42 PM   #58 
     - In what part of the country do you live? You should live here. It's  pnwmom   Jun-02-06 12:55 PM   #78 
     - I'm in MD  BuffyTheFundieSlayer   Jun-02-06 10:25 PM   #98 
        - People are too busy hiking here on Sundays to get into arguments  pnwmom   Jun-04-06 06:03 AM   #110 
     - Well, there's a project for you.  Ron_Green   Jun-02-06 01:02 PM   #80 
     - Thanks Ron  BuffyTheFundieSlayer   Jun-02-06 10:27 PM   #99 
     - Me again, Buffy..  TallahasseeGrannie   Jun-02-06 03:49 PM   #89 
        - The question comes up from time to time  BuffyTheFundieSlayer   Jun-02-06 10:51 PM   #100 
           - My goodness, Buffy  TallahasseeGrannie   Jun-03-06 07:38 AM   #103 
           - I'm in MD  BuffyTheFundieSlayer   Jun-03-06 09:59 PM   #107 
              - That is funny! Wow. How brave, though. I'd never sing loud enough  pnwmom   Jun-04-06 06:08 AM   #112 
                 - Me either  BuffyTheFundieSlayer   Jun-04-06 09:30 PM   #145 
                    - LOL!  pnwmom   Jun-05-06 12:45 AM   #161 
           - I recommend when the door to door people come, you just tell  pnwmom   Jun-04-06 06:05 AM   #111 
              - That doesn't work down here.  beam me up scottie   Jun-04-06 04:11 PM   #127 
                 - That's too bad. I've always found that they look at me like I've got  pnwmom   Jun-05-06 12:46 AM   #162 
                    - I work with a guy who's catholic.  beam me up scottie   Jun-05-06 12:48 AM   #164 
                       - Maryland, huh? Anywhere near Baltimore or are you out in the sticks?  pnwmom   Jun-05-06 12:54 AM   #166 
                       - I'm BMUS, not Buffy.  beam me up scottie   Jun-05-06 12:57 AM   #168 
                          - I can see that must get tiresome. I'd hate it there.  pnwmom   Jun-05-06 01:03 AM   #169 
                             - Yeah, I live next door to a girlie-girl.  beam me up scottie   Jun-05-06 01:11 AM   #172 
                                - You are too funny! (Compliment.)  Pierogi_Pincher   Jun-07-06 12:45 AM   #228 
                                   - And back atcha!  beam me up scottie   Jun-07-06 01:03 AM   #229 
                                      - T-Y for the welcoming shout out!  Pierogi_Pincher   Jun-07-06 01:22 AM   #231 
                       - Oops! Sorry. I replied to the wrong person, I think.  pnwmom   Jun-05-06 12:56 AM   #167 
                       - Heh, I just responded to your first post.  beam me up scottie   Jun-05-06 01:03 AM   #170 
                          - Hah! I had a friend who lived in Louisville at one point.  pnwmom   Jun-05-06 01:05 AM   #171 
                             - No, believe it or not, they wouldn't.  beam me up scottie   Jun-05-06 01:17 AM   #176 
                       - Faith w/o works is dead.  Pierogi_Pincher   Jun-07-06 12:25 AM   #226 
                          - Thank you so much.  beam me up scottie   Jun-07-06 12:32 AM   #227 
  - Buffy,  TallahasseeGrannie   Jun-02-06 03:43 PM   #88 
     - It is good advice for Atheists...IMO.  Proud_Democratt   Jun-07-06 06:15 PM   #234 
  - I'm not sure if you can really bring atheists and agnostics into this  muriel_volestrangler   Jun-01-06 04:45 AM   #27 
  - But this is why the atheists on the other thread can't understand where  pnwmom   Jun-01-06 05:16 AM   #30 
  - You mischaracterize our position.  trotsky   Jun-01-06 10:20 AM   #39 
  - In this country, today, faith vs. works is still a central problem.  pnwmom   Jun-01-06 10:50 AM   #42 
  - Oh, it matters that you fight about it  trotsky   Jun-01-06 10:58 AM   #43 
  - Sadly, I think that this  Dorian Gray   Jun-01-06 11:21 PM   #63 
     - Again, it comes down to interpretation.  trotsky   Jun-02-06 07:04 AM   #66 
     - Sure, it's interpretive.  Dorian Gray   Jun-02-06 10:37 AM   #72 
     - But even you make exceptions for "Thou Shalt Not Kill"  trotsky   Jun-02-06 11:06 AM   #73 
        - But, the abused who grow into abusers  Dorian Gray   Jun-02-06 11:15 AM   #74 
        - Hitler may have gotten some of his justification from the Old  pnwmom   Jun-02-06 01:02 PM   #81 
        - Matthew 5:17  trotsky   Jun-02-06 01:22 PM   #84 
        - More Often Abused Don't Grow Up To Be Abusers  Southpawkicker   Jun-04-06 10:52 PM   #153 
     - Jesus's parable of "the good Samaritan" is the definitive answer to that  pnwmom   Jun-02-06 12:57 PM   #79 
        - Not necessarily.  trotsky   Jun-02-06 02:05 PM   #85 
           - Your quoted passage doesn't hold water.  pnwmom   Jun-04-06 06:00 AM   #109 
              - Again, it's just another interpretation.  trotsky   Jun-04-06 09:48 AM   #117 
     - yes, Dorian Gray, I agree when you say  pnwmom   Jun-02-06 12:51 PM   #76 
        - *sigh*  trotsky   Jun-02-06 02:06 PM   #86 
  - No we're not  Goblinmonger   Jun-01-06 10:23 AM   #40 
     - The problem with that argument is it leaves no way to determine if  pnwmom   Jun-01-06 10:58 AM   #44 
        - But even the definition of "good works" is relative  riderinthestorm   Jun-01-06 10:43 PM   #60 
           - I just wrote a post, #75 below, which more or less addresses this question  pnwmom   Jun-02-06 12:53 PM   #77 
  - It is a big deal among many Christians, though  Pigwidgeon   Jun-01-06 05:36 AM   #31 
  - Thank you, Pidwidgeon, for a very enlightening post.  pnwmom   Jun-01-06 09:50 AM   #36 
  - It's pretty clear that was exactly the OP's point.  trotsky   Jun-01-06 10:15 AM   #37 
     - Only when they use the same arguments on us that the fundies use.  pnwmom   Jun-01-06 10:41 PM   #57 
        - But no one is.  trotsky   Jun-02-06 07:00 AM   #65 
           - It hasn't happened in these threads, but it has in others.  pnwmom   Jun-02-06 10:03 AM   #69 
              - Fine then, argue with the person who brings it up.  trotsky   Jun-02-06 10:12 AM   #71 
                 - I wonder, Trotsky, if part of the reason this has been  pnwmom   Jun-02-06 12:47 PM   #75 
                    - It all depends on the Christian's viewpoint.  trotsky   Jun-02-06 01:17 PM   #83 
                       - Trotsky, you have given voice  TallahasseeGrannie   Jun-02-06 04:20 PM   #90 
  - faith -- bad people do good works.  xchrom   Jun-01-06 04:52 AM   #28 
  - I think you need to look at the totality of what they do.  pnwmom   Jun-01-06 05:10 AM   #29 
     - encouraging people to embrace a poisoned faith is worse.  xchrom   Jun-01-06 06:23 AM   #32 
        - Are you saying that Christianity itself is poisoned and an evil dogma?  pnwmom   Jun-01-06 09:40 AM   #35 
           - i'm a christian myself -- however it has aspects that are  xchrom   Jun-01-06 12:08 PM   #49 
              - Okay, that sounds reasonable.  pnwmom   Jun-01-06 08:03 PM   #53 
  - I'm a behaviourist  rock   Jun-01-06 06:29 AM   #33 
  - Even when I was a Christian,  ayeshahaqqiqa   Jun-01-06 07:01 AM   #34 
  - I will avoid the charges of begging the question  Goblinmonger   Jun-01-06 10:19 AM   #38 
  - But all that does is support the faith-is-all people, who are  pnwmom   Jun-01-06 11:09 AM   #46 
  - And you know they aren't because...........  Goblinmonger   Jun-01-06 11:24 AM   #48 
  - " We should be doing everything we can to attack that belief"  beam me up scottie   Jun-01-06 10:08 PM   #56 
     - Great Pic Of The Church Lady  Southpawkicker   Jun-01-06 10:44 PM   #61 
        - Thanks, Southpaw!  beam me up scottie   Jun-03-06 07:05 AM   #102 
  - I agree  TallahasseeGrannie   Jun-02-06 04:28 PM   #92 
  - observations from a whackjob  Bill McBlueState   Jun-01-06 10:28 AM   #41 
  - Bill McBlueState, you said it better than I could. Guess it takes an  pnwmom   Jun-01-06 11:01 AM   #45 
  - 'Zackly'! n/t  Pierogi_Pincher   Jun-07-06 01:11 AM   #230 
  - Don't call me a fundamentalist.  El Supremo   Jun-01-06 11:10 AM   #47 
  - Salvation is by the grace of God, through faith, not works  Zebedeo   Jun-01-06 12:36 PM   #50 
  - i also think that works is a hold over from the mother religion.  xchrom   Jun-01-06 06:13 PM   #52 
  - Not this shit again.  Evoman   Jun-01-06 12:41 PM   #51 
  - Sorry, but I really wasn't addressing you, Evoman.  pnwmom   Jun-01-06 08:06 PM   #54 
  - Works ARE faith.  JerseygirlCT   Jun-01-06 09:02 PM   #55 
  - Faith Without Works Is Dead  Southpawkicker   Jun-01-06 10:43 PM   #59 
  - Well,  Dorian Gray   Jun-01-06 11:11 PM   #62 
  - I think something should be clarified...  TreasonousBastard   Jun-02-06 12:53 AM   #64 
  - Salvation can be in this life  kwassa   Jun-02-06 07:42 AM   #67 
  - Makes some sense to me  JerseygirlCT   Jun-04-06 08:07 PM   #143 
  - The two are inextricably intertwined; those that have faith will do good  kwassa   Jun-02-06 07:46 AM   #68 
  - I like that. Good works IS a form of worship.  pnwmom   Jun-02-06 01:05 PM   #82 
  - Good deeds are their own rewards.  ozone_man   Jun-02-06 10:09 AM   #70 
  - Neither faith nor works...  Kerry4Kerry   Jun-02-06 02:34 PM   #87 
  - Okay I'll bite.  quantessd   Jun-05-06 12:48 AM   #163 
     - He was being facetious.  beam me up scottie   Jun-05-06 01:24 AM   #180 
        - I didn't think the risk...  Kerry4Kerry   Jun-05-06 07:08 PM   #192 
  - One cannot "earn" salvation - grace only. But without works, faith sucks.  Rabrrrrrr   Jun-02-06 04:26 PM   #91 
  - The whole concept of "grace"...  Kerry4Kerry   Jun-02-06 04:54 PM   #93 
     - Well then, good for you!  Rabrrrrrr   Jun-02-06 04:56 PM   #94 
        - Not so wonderful when...  Kerry4Kerry   Jun-02-06 05:19 PM   #95 
           - I didn't realize grace was doled out by chance.  Rabrrrrrr   Jun-02-06 05:21 PM   #96 
              - In Catholic theology, grace comes to anyone who asks for it.  pnwmom   Jun-04-06 06:13 AM   #113 
  - The traditional Lutheran doctrine is faith alone, but  Lydia Leftcoast   Jun-02-06 06:06 PM   #97 
  - Oh brother. On the side of tolerance. I let individuals define themselves.  beam me up scottie   Jun-03-06 07:04 AM   #101 
  - Of course you let individuals define themselves. Political, not tolerance.  kwassa   Jun-03-06 11:55 AM   #104 
  - Deleted sub-thread  Name removed   Jun-03-06 01:20 PM   #105 
  - Kwassa, you said this so well.  pnwmom   Jun-04-06 06:20 AM   #115 
  - thanks, pnwmom!  kwassa   Jun-04-06 08:52 AM   #116 
  - kwassa, your assertion is bullshit.  trotsky   Jun-04-06 09:52 AM   #118 
  - You blame Christian scripture for the crimes of Hitler, which is  pnwmom   Jun-04-06 02:48 PM   #119 
     - No, he doesn't. NO atheist has done that on this site.  beam me up scottie   Jun-04-06 03:01 PM   #120 
     - Did you read the actual post? Or just the subject line? The quote was  pnwmom   Jun-04-06 03:34 PM   #122 
        - Actually, I seem to be the only one who is reading posts in here.  beam me up scottie   Jun-04-06 04:02 PM   #125 
     - Someone else has done his dirty work.  Proud_Democratt   Jun-04-06 04:21 PM   #129 
     - Here's an example of Biblical genocide...  Proud_Democratt   Jun-04-06 04:24 PM   #130 
     - And more....  Proud_Democratt   Jun-04-06 04:33 PM   #131 
     - bmus pretty much cleared up your misstatement.  trotsky   Jun-04-06 07:48 PM   #141 
        - I really have no idea what bmus was saying, but I agree with you that  pnwmom   Jun-04-06 10:14 PM   #148 
  - No, kwassa, that's called tolerance. Look it up.  beam me up scottie   Jun-04-06 03:51 PM   #124 
     - self-delete  kwassa   Jun-04-06 09:24 PM   #144 
  - Your welcome. Glad I could help.  pnwmom   Jun-04-06 06:17 AM   #114 
     - You helped me understand your belief that christians are morally superior.  beam me up scottie   Jun-04-06 03:24 PM   #121 
     - "I guess I should have used the sarcasm smilie,  pnwmom   Jun-04-06 03:37 PM   #123 
        - Ah, pnwmom, I see you skipped over the information on tolerance again.  beam me up scottie   Jun-04-06 04:09 PM   #126 
           - Why should I bother reading the post of someone who's insulting me?  pnwmom   Jun-04-06 04:42 PM   #132 
              - Pay attention. What I'm asking you to read is information on tolerance  beam me up scottie   Jun-04-06 04:46 PM   #133 
                 - Or bossing me around?  pnwmom   Jun-04-06 04:52 PM   #134 
                    - ASKING you to read the essays is bossing you around?  beam me up scottie   Jun-04-06 05:09 PM   #135 
                       - DIRECTING me to "pay attention" is  pnwmom   Jun-04-06 05:43 PM   #136 
                          - Now you're being disingenuous again.  beam me up scottie   Jun-04-06 05:51 PM   #137 
                             - I've told you before.  pnwmom   Jun-04-06 06:13 PM   #138 
                                - How are you not getting this?  beam me up scottie   Jun-04-06 06:30 PM   #139 
                                   - It's not that I don't get it, it's that we disagree.  pnwmom   Jun-04-06 06:55 PM   #140 
                                   - Fine. I'll be tolerant of all christians while you'll be whatever you are.  beam me up scottie   Jun-04-06 09:56 PM   #146 
                                   - So I've said I'm morally superior to atheists? That's interesting.  pnwmom   Jun-04-06 10:10 PM   #147 
                                      - Are you kidding?  beam me up scottie   Jun-04-06 10:36 PM   #151 
                                         - You know perfectly well that isn't something I said.  pnwmom   Jun-04-06 10:50 PM   #152 
                                            - Sure you have. Many times, actually.  beam me up scottie   Jun-04-06 11:11 PM   #155 
                                               - Where did I say that a Christian is morally superior to an  pnwmom   Jun-04-06 11:53 PM   #157 
                                               - The total disconnect is stunning.  beam me up scottie   Jun-05-06 12:16 AM   #159 
                                               - OFTEN is not ALWAYS. This is one of the exceptions to the No True  pnwmom   Jun-05-06 12:41 AM   #160 
                                               - If you say you BELIEVE that Hitler wasn't a christian,  beam me up scottie   Jun-05-06 12:53 AM   #165 
                                               - I can say that. I believe he wasn't.  pnwmom   Jun-05-06 01:18 AM   #177 
                                               - See, this is where problems really come up...  Solon   Jun-05-06 01:17 AM   #175 
                                               - It only matters to me when I hear people criticizing Christianity  pnwmom   Jun-05-06 01:21 AM   #178 
                                               - I have never done that.  beam me up scottie   Jun-05-06 01:27 AM   #181 
                                               - No, I didn't think it was ever you. If it happens again, I'll let you know  pnwmom   Jun-05-06 02:49 AM   #183 
                                               - The biggest thing about this is the fact that so many...  Solon   Jun-05-06 01:41 AM   #182 
                                               - Sigh.  pnwmom   Jun-05-06 02:50 AM   #184 
                                   - Maybe this will help, pnwmom.  beam me up scottie   Jun-04-06 11:28 PM   #156 
                                      - I'll think about it sometime, Beam Me Up.  pnwmom   Jun-04-06 11:55 PM   #158 
                                      - delete  pnwmom   Jun-05-06 01:12 AM   #173 
                                      - Inconsistent  kwassa   Jun-05-06 10:48 AM   #187 
                                         - Your Actions Don't Make You A Christian  Southpawkicker   Jun-05-06 08:04 PM   #193 
                                         - Deleted message  Name removed   Jun-05-06 10:56 PM   #197 
                                         - Then BMUS doesn't get to decide that Hitler is a Christian?  kwassa   Jun-06-06 08:08 AM   #200 
                                            - So By Your Standard, If I Say I'm A Christian, And I Do  Southpawkicker   Jun-06-06 05:16 PM   #207 
                                            - It was never my decision, kwassa. Each christian decides for himself.  beam me up scottie   Jun-06-06 05:39 PM   #209 
                                         - " I think you intolerant because of your general behavior and attitude"  beam me up scottie   Jun-05-06 11:11 PM   #198 
                                            - Pattern of behavior, BMUS  kwassa   Jun-06-06 08:19 AM   #201 
                                               - kwassa, you might want to analyze your own "pattern of behavior"  trotsky   Jun-06-06 09:46 AM   #202 
                                               - trotsky, you might want to mind your own business  kwassa   Jun-06-06 09:52 AM   #203 
                                               - LOL  trotsky   Jun-06-06 09:57 AM   #204 
                                               - Threat?  kwassa   Jun-06-06 12:26 PM   #206 
                                               - Not accepting your opinion as proof makes me intolerant?  beam me up scottie   Jun-06-06 05:52 PM   #210 
                                                  - No, your treatment of others displays your intolerance  kwassa   Jun-06-06 07:15 PM   #211 
                                                  - Intolerant of the intolerant? Yes indeed I am.  beam me up scottie   Jun-06-06 07:31 PM   #212 
                                                  - You judge anyone who disagrees with you as intolerant  kwassa   Jun-06-06 07:37 PM   #213 
                                                  - Nope, just the people who refuse to accept the rights of others.  beam me up scottie   Jun-06-06 07:51 PM   #214 
                                                  - You behave in an intolerant way  kwassa   Jun-06-06 08:16 PM   #216 
                                                  - Your words speak for themselves:  beam me up scottie   Jun-06-06 08:28 PM   #217 
                                                  - Good stuff. Thanks for sharing, though it is offpoint as usual.  kwassa   Jun-06-06 09:07 PM   #219 
                                                  - You're quite welcome.  beam me up scottie   Jun-06-06 09:33 PM   #221 
                                   - What complete nonsense  kwassa   Jun-04-06 08:02 PM   #142 
                                      - Deleted message  Name removed   Jun-04-06 10:24 PM   #149 
                                      - Now I Don't See That As Being The Case Kwassa  Southpawkicker   Jun-04-06 10:30 PM   #150 
                                      - I'm curious to know how far you'd take this Southpawkicker.  pnwmom   Jun-04-06 11:07 PM   #154 
                                         - I think I see where the miscommunication is occurring  BuffyTheFundieSlayer   Jun-05-06 04:48 AM   #186 
                                         - And Not Something For Humans To Judge n/t  Southpawkicker   Jun-05-06 04:47 PM   #189 
                                         - A "True Christian"  Southpawkicker   Jun-05-06 04:40 PM   #188 
                                      - Deleted message  Name removed   Jun-06-06 12:24 AM   #199 
                                      - Tolerance is nonsense?  beam me up scottie   Jun-06-06 05:20 PM   #208 
                                         - But the rest of us need to accept BMUS's version of "tolerance"  kwassa   Jun-06-06 09:05 PM   #218 
                                            - You know, if you were as tolerant of others as you claim to be,  beam me up scottie   Jun-06-06 09:30 PM   #220 
                                               - You are consistently inconsisent.  kwassa   Jun-06-06 09:44 PM   #222 
                                                  - "No true Christian would be a Nazi."  beam me up scottie   Jun-06-06 09:49 PM   #223 
                                                     - So? It's my belief. What do you want to do about it?  kwassa   Jun-06-06 10:03 PM   #224 
                                                     - Are you going for the record, kwassa?  beam me up scottie   Jun-06-06 10:11 PM   #225 
                                                     - Reading comprehension: My words don't need to be qualified  kwassa   Jun-07-06 09:44 AM   #232 
                                                     - Then Ratzinger isn't a Christian, since he technically WAS a Nazi.  Zhade   Jun-07-06 06:00 PM   #233 
  - Faith alone...is only talk. I have seldom seen  Proud_Democratt   Jun-03-06 05:11 PM   #106 
  - I Know People Who Walk The Walk  Southpawkicker   Jun-05-06 08:24 PM   #195 
  - Essentially "works" should be the product of "faith"...  rasputin1952   Jun-03-06 10:35 PM   #108 
  - I judge a person on what they do, and not....  IMModerate   Jun-04-06 04:15 PM   #128 
  - Excuse me if I'm missing something, but...  quantessd   Jun-05-06 01:15 AM   #174 
  - True enough.  pnwmom   Jun-05-06 01:22 AM   #179 
  - I replied to the wrong post...  MrWiggles   Jun-05-06 06:55 PM   #190 
  - Now that the flamewar has died down a little,  Random_Australian   Jun-05-06 04:25 AM   #185 
  - Works - more important by far!  MrWiggles   Jun-05-06 06:58 PM   #191 
  - For Christians that believe that FAITH is all you need...  Proud_Democratt   Jun-05-06 08:09 PM   #194 
  - It's neither OUR faith or works - salvation is "not about me", it is a  54anickel   Jun-05-06 10:14 PM   #196 
     - Faith...  Brentos   Jun-06-06 12:05 PM   #205 
        - According to the New Testament, Jesus healed MANY...  Proud_Democratt   Jun-06-06 07:59 PM   #215 
 

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