| 25. You misunderstand that passage about passing judgment, |
|
probably because it was mistranslated from the Greek. The orignial was closer to "CONDEMN not lest you be CONDEMNED." It's one thing to tell somebody that Calvinist god isn't god at all, and quite another to tell them they're gonna burn in hell for all eternity because you don't like who they are or what they're doing.
|
| -Isn't saying that someone isn't really a christian not christian? |
Goblinmonger |
May-30-06 01:43 PM |
#0 |
 -
Not to mention committing the "No real Scotsman" fallacy. nt. |
Strong Atheist |
May-30-06 01:45 PM |
#1 |
| -
All in the Eyes of the Beholder |
stepnw1f |
May-30-06 01:45 PM |
#2 |
  -
But who gets to judge? |
Goblinmonger |
May-30-06 01:46 PM |
#5 |
| -
You might note, however, their bible passages are 90% Old |
NCevilDUer |
May-30-06 03:36 PM |
#47 |
| -
Thank you, NCevilDUer. And I would add |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 05:44 PM |
#64 |
| -
It is possible to describe without judging. |
patrice |
May-30-06 01:46 PM |
#3 |
| -
Person B is one of the smorgasbord Christians |
liberal N proud |
May-30-06 01:46 PM |
#4 |
| -
I edited the OP |
Goblinmonger |
May-30-06 01:48 PM |
#7 |
| -
Same principle |
liberal N proud |
May-30-06 01:49 PM |
#9 |
| -
Unfortunately there's a flaw in your premise |
dotcosm |
May-30-06 01:48 PM |
#6 |
| -
OK, valid points |
Goblinmonger |
May-30-06 01:50 PM |
#10 |
| -
I agree with you |
dotcosm |
May-30-06 01:57 PM |
#15 |
| -
But deconstruction is so much damn fun |
Goblinmonger |
May-30-06 02:08 PM |
#21 |
| -
Don't know where you get your idea about what "most" Christians |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 03:56 PM |
#56 |
| -
That's exactly why the op asked the question. |
beam me up scottie |
May-30-06 07:37 PM |
#70 |
| -
So? Another liberal Christian and I disagreed on something. Big deal. |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 08:22 PM |
#83 |
| -
Exactly. |
beam me up scottie |
May-30-06 08:25 PM |
#86 |
| -
Since this whole thread was started by an atheist, I'm not sure |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 08:41 PM |
#90 |
| -
The No True Scotsman fallacy. |
beam me up scottie |
May-30-06 08:53 PM |
#94 |
| -
Only if your a christian. Atheists like me are free to label, accuse.. |
Union Thug |
May-30-06 01:48 PM |
#8 |
| -
I think that's the best part. |
Goblinmonger |
May-30-06 01:52 PM |
#11 |
| -
I vote for St. Louis. |
Proud_Democratt |
May-30-06 01:59 PM |
#17 |
| -
I LOVE St. Louis |
Goblinmonger |
May-30-06 02:09 PM |
#22 |
| -
I'm with ya!!! |
Proud_Democratt |
May-30-06 02:15 PM |
#26 |
| -
Corpus Christi. n/t |
shain from kane |
May-30-06 02:09 PM |
#23 |
| -
You're not a TRUE atheist. |
beam me up scottie |
May-30-06 07:38 PM |
#71 |
| -
Could you be more descriptive of what things person A does. |
atreides1 |
May-30-06 01:53 PM |
#12 |
| -
That's your opinion. |
beam me up scottie |
May-30-06 07:40 PM |
#72 |
| -
The Pope was a child during WWII. |
TallahasseeGrannie |
May-31-06 11:09 AM |
#140 |
| -
What Jesus said, according to Scripture... |
Finder |
May-30-06 01:55 PM |
#13 |
| -
ah. the classic double-bind. |
Lerkfish |
May-30-06 01:56 PM |
#14 |
| -
So God is a P-Trap under a sink? |
Goblinmonger |
May-30-06 02:18 PM |
#27 |
| -
No, the DU religion forum is the P-trap under the sink. |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 04:02 PM |
#58 |
| -
So you're christian and they're not? |
beam me up scottie |
May-30-06 07:43 PM |
#73 |
| -
I'm not going to judge ALL fundamentalists. I know some of them |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 08:37 PM |
#87 |
| -
That's great. |
beam me up scottie |
May-30-06 08:49 PM |
#92 |
| -
I've never thought you and I were all that different, Beam me up. |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 09:02 PM |
#98 |
| -
I don't think we are either. |
beam me up scottie |
May-30-06 09:24 PM |
#104 |
| -
Even to someone who did, this country seems whacked. |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 09:34 PM |
#107 |
| -
This Country Isn't Completely Whacked Yet! |
Southpawkicker |
Jun-01-06 11:39 PM |
#194 |
| -
No, I took that class. |
Goblinmonger |
May-31-06 08:54 AM |
#129 |
| -
Yep, |
Joe for Clark |
May-30-06 02:36 PM |
#33 |
| -
No, I don't think so. |
Joe for Clark |
May-30-06 01:57 PM |
#16 |
| -
Don't get me wrong |
Goblinmonger |
May-31-06 08:57 AM |
#130 |
| -
It's really simple |
azureblue |
May-30-06 02:00 PM |
#18 |
| -
But what about the contradictory stuff? |
Goblinmonger |
May-30-06 03:03 PM |
#40 |
| -
If you were really interested in knowing more, there was |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 05:48 PM |
#65 |
| -
Curious. |
trotsky |
May-30-06 08:18 PM |
#80 |
| -
Read the book. I have forgotten now what I took from that book |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 08:55 PM |
#95 |
| -
So, men talking to each other wasn't a problem? |
trotsky |
May-30-06 09:17 PM |
#102 |
| -
It was because of how Jewish synagogues were set up, with the women |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 09:40 PM |
#108 |
| -
Here's "the more" |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 09:56 PM |
#109 |
| -
Seems to me just about every church I've been near has done the same |
sybylla |
May-30-06 02:06 PM |
#19 |
| -
Not true. |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 06:04 PM |
#66 |
| -
Episcopalians don't say that about anybody |
TallahasseeGrannie |
May-31-06 10:49 AM |
#139 |
| -
They're used to it. Did you ever see a group of people that supposedly |
shain from kane |
May-30-06 02:06 PM |
#20 |
| -
I found atheists are much better Christians than Christians are. n/t |
moobu2 |
May-30-06 02:10 PM |
#24 |
| -
I was just reading an article saying |
Proud_Democratt |
May-30-06 02:18 PM |
#28 |
| -
Sometimes that is right. |
Joe for Clark |
May-30-06 02:21 PM |
#30 |
| -
You misunderstand that passage about passing judgment, |
Warpy |
May-30-06 02:12 PM |
#25 |
| -
The point is still there in other passages. |
Goblinmonger |
May-30-06 02:19 PM |
#29 |
| -
Actually as an atheist who is nearly aggressive in MYOB, |
Warpy |
May-30-06 02:44 PM |
#34 |
| -
But my point is |
Goblinmonger |
May-30-06 02:58 PM |
#38 |
| -
I think that a progressive Christian would not be as likely to say |
NCevilDUer |
May-30-06 03:48 PM |
#52 |
| -
If that is true, then can you explain |
dotcosm |
May-30-06 02:23 PM |
#31 |
| -
Man over God |
sandnsea |
Jun-01-06 02:12 AM |
#181 |
| -
The parable of the wheat and the tares... |
Davis_X_Machina |
May-30-06 02:27 PM |
#32 |
| -
If a person harbors evil within, then it doesn't matter what they... |
1620rock |
May-30-06 02:49 PM |
#36 |
| -
RIGHT ON. |
Joe for Clark |
May-30-06 03:08 PM |
#42 |
| -
That's right. And I don't know who this "Father" is that GWB talks to, |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 06:07 PM |
#67 |
| -
The main problem is no clear, consistent definition of "Christian." |
trotsky |
May-30-06 02:49 PM |
#35 |
| -
Reminds me of |
Goblinmonger |
May-30-06 03:05 PM |
#41 |
| -
Many people apparently have such a weak grasp on their faith... |
trotsky |
May-30-06 03:18 PM |
#43 |
| -
I can't believe that. |
Goblinmonger |
May-30-06 03:40 PM |
#48 |
| -
OMG, I'm so totally SERIES!!!11!!!1!!1 |
trotsky |
May-30-06 03:41 PM |
#49 |
| -
But that seems to be exactly what the OP is claiming. |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 05:41 PM |
#63 |
| -
No, it's not. |
beam me up scottie |
May-30-06 07:48 PM |
#74 |
| -
As long as you judge other people with the same standards by which |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 08:19 PM |
#81 |
| -
But don't some christians think that's a sin? |
beam me up scottie |
May-30-06 08:24 PM |
#84 |
| -
I'm sure there are some who do, since there are zillions of them. |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 08:40 PM |
#89 |
| -
WHo said anything about Little Lord Pissypants? |
beam me up scottie |
May-30-06 08:51 PM |
#93 |
| -
Many fundamentalists follow him solely because of his Christian robes. |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 08:58 PM |
#96 |
| -
I think that may be why some of them are parting company. |
beam me up scottie |
May-30-06 09:01 PM |
#97 |
| -
I don't know. Some of them seem so darn dumb. |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 09:06 PM |
#100 |
| -
I guess it depends what they want from him. |
beam me up scottie |
May-30-06 09:18 PM |
#103 |
| -
Which would also destroy Christianity, as far as I'm concerned. |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 09:33 PM |
#106 |
| -
No, not just a "poor representative." |
trotsky |
May-30-06 08:17 PM |
#79 |
| -
I think that would actually be more damning. |
beam me up scottie |
May-30-06 09:03 PM |
#99 |
| -
Alas, the fundamentalists don't seem to care much what liberal |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 10:00 PM |
#110 |
| -
But don't they care what others think? |
beam me up scottie |
May-30-06 10:12 PM |
#113 |
| -
I personally don't disown them as Christians |
TallahasseeGrannie |
May-31-06 11:14 AM |
#141 |
| -
Well said, T-Grannie. |
trotsky |
May-31-06 12:02 PM |
#146 |
| -
There is only one "rule" |
Joe for Clark |
May-30-06 03:19 PM |
#44 |
| -
How do you know? |
trotsky |
May-30-06 03:27 PM |
#46 |
| -
No, we end in the place we should be. |
Joe for Clark |
May-30-06 03:42 PM |
#50 |
| -
Again, you prove my point. |
trotsky |
May-30-06 03:50 PM |
#53 |
| -
NO no no |
Joe for Clark |
May-30-06 04:11 PM |
#61 |
| -
Then you're setting up the word "Christian" to encompass no one. |
trotsky |
May-30-06 08:37 PM |
#88 |
| -
That is one of the things Christians are supposed to struggle with. |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 08:46 PM |
#91 |
| -
I am glad you posted that - made me think of something |
Joe for Clark |
Jun-01-06 03:00 PM |
#191 |
| -
And in your view of Christianity, YOU are as much of a black and white |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 06:15 PM |
#69 |
| -
Okey dokey. |
trotsky |
May-30-06 08:13 PM |
#77 |
| -
Sorry we don't fit nicely into that box you want to squeeze us all in. |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 06:12 PM |
#68 |
| -
Totally on the contrary, |
trotsky |
May-30-06 08:12 PM |
#76 |
| -
No, you've made a box called "All Christians Go Here" and we don't. |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 08:20 PM |
#82 |
| -
Heh... no, your box is "all REAL Christians go here" |
trotsky |
May-30-06 08:25 PM |
#85 |
| -
My definition of a real Christian, for what its worth, has to include |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 09:15 PM |
#101 |
| -
But all you do there is shift the question, not answer it. |
trotsky |
May-31-06 06:59 AM |
#123 |
| -
I know some very solid Christians |
TallahasseeGrannie |
May-31-06 11:21 AM |
#143 |
| -
Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking of. |
trotsky |
May-31-06 12:03 PM |
#147 |
| -
Priests and a vow of poverty? |
Goblinmonger |
May-30-06 03:42 PM |
#51 |
| -
You don't know a lot about it. |
Joe for Clark |
May-30-06 03:56 PM |
#57 |
| -
For somebody who is talking smack |
Goblinmonger |
May-31-06 09:48 AM |
#132 |
| -
Uh-huh. Like atheists never disagree. Spare me. |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 05:36 PM |
#62 |
| -
Of course we do. We just don't go around judging the truthiness of atheism |
beam me up scottie |
May-30-06 07:56 PM |
#75 |
| -
Stalin a real atheist? WAS NOT!!!! |
BuffyTheFundieSlayer |
May-30-06 11:49 PM |
#117 |
| -
Well of course he wasn't. |
beam me up scottie |
May-30-06 11:56 PM |
#119 |
| -
Glad we cleared that up |
BuffyTheFundieSlayer |
May-31-06 12:38 AM |
#120 |
| -
Hmm |
TallahasseeGrannie |
May-30-06 02:50 PM |
#37 |
| -
I won't say this often Grannie |
Goblinmonger |
May-30-06 03:00 PM |
#39 |
| -
Oh man... |
TallahasseeGrannie |
May-31-06 07:24 AM |
#127 |
| -
All of them. |
Goblinmonger |
May-31-06 09:15 AM |
#131 |
| -
Well, the shoe will be on the proverbial other foot |
TallahasseeGrannie |
May-31-06 10:46 AM |
#137 |
| -
Yikes is right. |
Goblinmonger |
May-31-06 10:48 AM |
#138 |
| -
The Bible does it all the time |
manic expression |
May-30-06 03:20 PM |
#45 |
| -
I just love it when atheists sit around talking about what makes |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 03:51 PM |
#54 |
| -
actually, in fairness, I think the question is valid. |
Lerkfish |
May-30-06 03:54 PM |
#55 |
| -
It isn't enlightenment. I've heard a version of this question asked here |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 04:05 PM |
#59 |
| -
"Bush as the epitome of Christianity" No-one wants to set up * as the |
Random_Australian |
May-30-06 09:30 PM |
#105 |
| -
Bush has set himself up that way. He says he listens to his "real Father" |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 10:02 PM |
#111 |
| -
Uh, could we just clarify who 'they' refers to in this context? |
Random_Australian |
May-30-06 10:20 PM |
#115 |
| -
Sorry, but you were right the first time |
pnwmom |
May-31-06 09:57 AM |
#134 |
| -
how about a linky, please? |
Goblinmonger |
May-31-06 10:16 AM |
#136 |
| -
Hitler wasn't a true Christian. Bush isn't a true Christian. But I'm too |
pnwmom |
May-31-06 11:15 AM |
#142 |
| -
Family is much more important |
Goblinmonger |
May-31-06 12:37 PM |
#148 |
| -
Things are still up in the air |
pnwmom |
May-31-06 03:47 PM |
#149 |
| -
You mean the No True Scotsman fallacy? |
beam me up scottie |
May-31-06 06:30 PM |
#151 |
| -
I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to tell you your interpretation seems |
Random_Australian |
May-31-06 07:54 PM |
#157 |
| -
I don't think he represents christianity. |
beam me up scottie |
May-30-06 10:23 PM |
#116 |
| -
But atheism, correct me if I'm wrong, doesn't include a particular |
pnwmom |
May-31-06 10:11 AM |
#135 |
| -
P.S. I appreciated your "double bind" comment above. |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 04:08 PM |
#60 |
| -
Yeah, we can't compete with the professional hypocrites, though. |
beam me up scottie |
May-30-06 08:15 PM |
#78 |
| -
That bar has always been way up there. |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 10:03 PM |
#112 |
| -
See, I think that's what the op was trying to get at. |
beam me up scottie |
May-30-06 10:18 PM |
#114 |
| -
But how do we discourage people from following "false prophets" like |
pnwmom |
May-31-06 05:51 AM |
#122 |
| -
Some of us are former Christians |
BuffyTheFundieSlayer |
May-30-06 11:51 PM |
#118 |
| -
First of all, that's not what is happening here. |
Goblinmonger |
May-31-06 09:52 AM |
#133 |
| -
Anybody who worships christ is a christian..PERIOD! |
Evoman |
May-31-06 12:57 AM |
#121 |
| -
Says who? Who gives you the authority to make this statement? |
kwassa |
May-31-06 07:09 AM |
#124 |
| -
Literalist definition, philosophical proposition with presumption |
Random_Australian |
May-31-06 07:19 AM |
#125 |
| -
One definition among many |
kwassa |
May-31-06 07:23 AM |
#126 |
| -
I see. Conviction stemmed from the fact that it is, by definition, the |
Random_Australian |
May-31-06 07:30 AM |
#128 |
| -
What about someone who only pretends to be a believer? |
pnwmom |
May-31-06 07:48 PM |
#155 |
| -
Yes, of course |
Evoman |
May-31-06 08:09 PM |
#161 |
| -
I hope you're not saying that Hitler was a schmuck. |
pnwmom |
May-31-06 09:00 PM |
#164 |
| -
Wow, God has a wife. |
beam me up scottie |
May-31-06 09:02 PM |
#167 |
| -
I'm not reading minds, I'm judging Hitler purely on the basis |
pnwmom |
Jun-01-06 12:15 AM |
#178 |
| -
So it's your belief that he wasn't a christian, not a fact. |
beam me up scottie |
Jun-01-06 09:26 PM |
#192 |
| -
Your on a slippery slope pnwmom. |
bluesbassman |
Jun-02-06 02:12 AM |
#197 |
| -
No true Scotsman would put sugar on his porridge. |
beam me up scottie |
May-31-06 09:08 PM |
#169 |
| -
One could equate that statement to many Christians. |
Proud_Democratt |
May-31-06 09:20 PM |
#170 |
| -
sigh... |
beam me up scottie |
May-31-06 09:26 PM |
#172 |
| -
People who accept the "faith is everything" definition of Christianity |
pnwmom |
Jun-01-06 12:23 AM |
#179 |
| -
And, of course, YOUR personal brand of christianity is the TRUE one. |
beam me up scottie |
Jun-01-06 09:49 PM |
#193 |
| -
Lol...didn't Scottie just ask you the same thing? |
Evoman |
May-31-06 11:28 AM |
#144 |
| -
Sorry, but you don't make my definition, do you? |
kwassa |
May-31-06 11:32 AM |
#145 |
| -
Nice catch! Christians aren't legit unless they have kwassa's blessing. |
beam me up scottie |
May-31-06 06:14 PM |
#150 |
| -
There's a bit of a twist on this, I think, |
Ron_Green |
May-31-06 06:43 PM |
#152 |
| -
Isn't it possible for someone to PRETEND to be a Christian, for political |
pnwmom |
May-31-06 07:44 PM |
#153 |
| -
Sure, but then they wouldn't worship Christ and be excluded under his |
Random_Australian |
May-31-06 07:48 PM |
#154 |
| -
The Bush family occasionally goes to services. That doesn't tell me that |
pnwmom |
May-31-06 07:58 PM |
#158 |
| -
That could well be merely their interpretation of the Bible, after all |
Random_Australian |
May-31-06 08:07 PM |
#160 |
| -
It's no different that the decision we make on a daily basis as |
pnwmom |
May-31-06 08:56 PM |
#163 |
| -
Yes. Now we agree on that, let us see the nub of contention; can |
Random_Australian |
May-31-06 09:02 PM |
#166 |
| -
We are really looking at this from different angles, but it all comes |
pnwmom |
Jun-01-06 02:58 AM |
#187 |
| -
"by his fruits" |
sandnsea |
Jun-01-06 02:29 AM |
#184 |
| -
Yes, sandnsea, that's how I feel too. |
pnwmom |
Jun-01-06 03:08 AM |
#188 |
| -
And how would you know? |
beam me up scottie |
May-31-06 07:52 PM |
#156 |
| -
No, but we often have to live with uncertainty. Even though it would |
pnwmom |
May-31-06 08:04 PM |
#159 |
| -
To give examples at opposite ends of the spectrum |
pnwmom |
May-31-06 08:52 PM |
#162 |
| -
So you have the right to decide that he's not a true christian. |
beam me up scottie |
May-31-06 09:01 PM |
#165 |
| -
I have the same right to decide that I do whenever I need to make |
pnwmom |
May-31-06 09:22 PM |
#171 |
| -
I believe you when you say you're a christian. |
beam me up scottie |
May-31-06 09:28 PM |
#173 |
| -
If you believe me only because you believe ANYONE who says they are, |
pnwmom |
Jun-01-06 12:07 AM |
#177 |
| -
Alright, here is my problem, where do you draw the line, and for this |
Random_Australian |
May-31-06 09:07 PM |
#168 |
| -
I think all true Christians should be tested.... |
Proud_Democratt |
May-31-06 09:28 PM |
#174 |
| -
Robertson would qualify easily |
BuffyTheFundieSlayer |
May-31-06 11:46 PM |
#176 |
| -
I think all true atheists should be tested |
pnwmom |
Jun-01-06 12:28 AM |
#180 |
| -
Uh, I'll presume you are joking..... |
Random_Australian |
Jun-01-06 02:17 AM |
#183 |
| -
I presume you missed Proud_democratt's post #174. My post is a "back at |
pnwmom |
Jun-01-06 02:48 AM |
#185 |
| -
I suggested the test in post 174 because..... |
Proud_Democratt |
Jun-01-06 05:58 AM |
#189 |
| -
This is an ancient metaphor, proud_Democratt, but who |
pnwmom |
Jun-01-06 09:38 AM |
#190 |
| -
There are some Christians here |
BuffyTheFundieSlayer |
Jun-02-06 12:43 AM |
#196 |
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Since I can't see into his soul (unlike GWB, who professes that special |
pnwmom |
May-31-06 09:57 PM |
#175 |
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Sorry, allow me some small clarifications - firstly, this was a sake |
Random_Australian |
Jun-01-06 02:16 AM |
#182 |
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I don't think it is possible to draw a bright line. It's more like making |
pnwmom |
Jun-01-06 02:50 AM |
#186 |
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Having spent 3 years in a seminary, methinks... |
TreasonousBastard |
Jun-02-06 12:34 AM |
#195 |
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