| Isn't saying that someone isn't really a christian not christian? |
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Edited on Tue May-30-06 01:47 PM by Goblinmonger
I've been silent for a little bit, but this got to me today during the Pope blaming god thread.
Let's say person A claims to be a Christian (believes in god, Jesus is divine).
Let's also say that person A is kind of an asshole and does really shitty things.
Let's now say that person B comes along and says, "Hey, look at person A. They are a shithead. They are a Christian."
Now person C, a Christian, comes along and says, "No way. Person A ISN'T a Christian because a real Christian wouldn't do that."
Hasn't person C violated that whole "judge not" business that JC taught which would mean that person C isn't a real christian because they do things that aren't christianlike just like person A did?
|
| -Isn't saying that someone isn't really a christian not christian? |
Goblinmonger |
May-30-06 01:43 PM |
#0 |
 -
Not to mention committing the "No real Scotsman" fallacy. nt. |
Strong Atheist |
May-30-06 01:45 PM |
#1 |
| -
All in the Eyes of the Beholder |
stepnw1f |
May-30-06 01:45 PM |
#2 |
  -
But who gets to judge? |
Goblinmonger |
May-30-06 01:46 PM |
#5 |
| -
You might note, however, their bible passages are 90% Old |
NCevilDUer |
May-30-06 03:36 PM |
#47 |
| -
Thank you, NCevilDUer. And I would add |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 05:44 PM |
#64 |
| -
It is possible to describe without judging. |
patrice |
May-30-06 01:46 PM |
#3 |
| -
Person B is one of the smorgasbord Christians |
liberal N proud |
May-30-06 01:46 PM |
#4 |
| -
I edited the OP |
Goblinmonger |
May-30-06 01:48 PM |
#7 |
| -
Same principle |
liberal N proud |
May-30-06 01:49 PM |
#9 |
| -
Unfortunately there's a flaw in your premise |
dotcosm |
May-30-06 01:48 PM |
#6 |
| -
OK, valid points |
Goblinmonger |
May-30-06 01:50 PM |
#10 |
| -
I agree with you |
dotcosm |
May-30-06 01:57 PM |
#15 |
| -
But deconstruction is so much damn fun |
Goblinmonger |
May-30-06 02:08 PM |
#21 |
| -
Don't know where you get your idea about what "most" Christians |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 03:56 PM |
#56 |
| -
That's exactly why the op asked the question. |
beam me up scottie |
May-30-06 07:37 PM |
#70 |
| -
So? Another liberal Christian and I disagreed on something. Big deal. |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 08:22 PM |
#83 |
| -
Exactly. |
beam me up scottie |
May-30-06 08:25 PM |
#86 |
| -
Since this whole thread was started by an atheist, I'm not sure |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 08:41 PM |
#90 |
| -
The No True Scotsman fallacy. |
beam me up scottie |
May-30-06 08:53 PM |
#94 |
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Only if your a christian. Atheists like me are free to label, accuse.. |
Union Thug |
May-30-06 01:48 PM |
#8 |
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I think that's the best part. |
Goblinmonger |
May-30-06 01:52 PM |
#11 |
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I vote for St. Louis. |
Proud_Democratt |
May-30-06 01:59 PM |
#17 |
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I LOVE St. Louis |
Goblinmonger |
May-30-06 02:09 PM |
#22 |
| -
I'm with ya!!! |
Proud_Democratt |
May-30-06 02:15 PM |
#26 |
| -
Corpus Christi. n/t |
shain from kane |
May-30-06 02:09 PM |
#23 |
| -
You're not a TRUE atheist. |
beam me up scottie |
May-30-06 07:38 PM |
#71 |
| -
Could you be more descriptive of what things person A does. |
atreides1 |
May-30-06 01:53 PM |
#12 |
| -
That's your opinion. |
beam me up scottie |
May-30-06 07:40 PM |
#72 |
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The Pope was a child during WWII. |
TallahasseeGrannie |
May-31-06 11:09 AM |
#140 |
| -
What Jesus said, according to Scripture... |
Finder |
May-30-06 01:55 PM |
#13 |
| -
ah. the classic double-bind. |
Lerkfish |
May-30-06 01:56 PM |
#14 |
| -
So God is a P-Trap under a sink? |
Goblinmonger |
May-30-06 02:18 PM |
#27 |
| -
No, the DU religion forum is the P-trap under the sink. |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 04:02 PM |
#58 |
| -
So you're christian and they're not? |
beam me up scottie |
May-30-06 07:43 PM |
#73 |
| -
I'm not going to judge ALL fundamentalists. I know some of them |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 08:37 PM |
#87 |
| -
That's great. |
beam me up scottie |
May-30-06 08:49 PM |
#92 |
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I've never thought you and I were all that different, Beam me up. |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 09:02 PM |
#98 |
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I don't think we are either. |
beam me up scottie |
May-30-06 09:24 PM |
#104 |
| -
Even to someone who did, this country seems whacked. |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 09:34 PM |
#107 |
| -
This Country Isn't Completely Whacked Yet! |
Southpawkicker |
Jun-01-06 11:39 PM |
#194 |
| -
No, I took that class. |
Goblinmonger |
May-31-06 08:54 AM |
#129 |
| -
Yep, |
Joe for Clark |
May-30-06 02:36 PM |
#33 |
| -
No, I don't think so. |
Joe for Clark |
May-30-06 01:57 PM |
#16 |
| -
Don't get me wrong |
Goblinmonger |
May-31-06 08:57 AM |
#130 |
| -
It's really simple |
azureblue |
May-30-06 02:00 PM |
#18 |
| -
But what about the contradictory stuff? |
Goblinmonger |
May-30-06 03:03 PM |
#40 |
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If you were really interested in knowing more, there was |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 05:48 PM |
#65 |
| -
Curious. |
trotsky |
May-30-06 08:18 PM |
#80 |
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Read the book. I have forgotten now what I took from that book |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 08:55 PM |
#95 |
| -
So, men talking to each other wasn't a problem? |
trotsky |
May-30-06 09:17 PM |
#102 |
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It was because of how Jewish synagogues were set up, with the women |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 09:40 PM |
#108 |
| -
Here's "the more" |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 09:56 PM |
#109 |
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Seems to me just about every church I've been near has done the same |
sybylla |
May-30-06 02:06 PM |
#19 |
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Not true. |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 06:04 PM |
#66 |
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Episcopalians don't say that about anybody |
TallahasseeGrannie |
May-31-06 10:49 AM |
#139 |
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They're used to it. Did you ever see a group of people that supposedly |
shain from kane |
May-30-06 02:06 PM |
#20 |
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I found atheists are much better Christians than Christians are. n/t |
moobu2 |
May-30-06 02:10 PM |
#24 |
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I was just reading an article saying |
Proud_Democratt |
May-30-06 02:18 PM |
#28 |
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Sometimes that is right. |
Joe for Clark |
May-30-06 02:21 PM |
#30 |
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You misunderstand that passage about passing judgment, |
Warpy |
May-30-06 02:12 PM |
#25 |
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The point is still there in other passages. |
Goblinmonger |
May-30-06 02:19 PM |
#29 |
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Actually as an atheist who is nearly aggressive in MYOB, |
Warpy |
May-30-06 02:44 PM |
#34 |
| -
But my point is |
Goblinmonger |
May-30-06 02:58 PM |
#38 |
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I think that a progressive Christian would not be as likely to say |
NCevilDUer |
May-30-06 03:48 PM |
#52 |
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If that is true, then can you explain |
dotcosm |
May-30-06 02:23 PM |
#31 |
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Man over God |
sandnsea |
Jun-01-06 02:12 AM |
#181 |
| -
The parable of the wheat and the tares... |
Davis_X_Machina |
May-30-06 02:27 PM |
#32 |
| -
If a person harbors evil within, then it doesn't matter what they... |
1620rock |
May-30-06 02:49 PM |
#36 |
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RIGHT ON. |
Joe for Clark |
May-30-06 03:08 PM |
#42 |
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That's right. And I don't know who this "Father" is that GWB talks to, |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 06:07 PM |
#67 |
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The main problem is no clear, consistent definition of "Christian." |
trotsky |
May-30-06 02:49 PM |
#35 |
| -
Reminds me of |
Goblinmonger |
May-30-06 03:05 PM |
#41 |
| -
Many people apparently have such a weak grasp on their faith... |
trotsky |
May-30-06 03:18 PM |
#43 |
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I can't believe that. |
Goblinmonger |
May-30-06 03:40 PM |
#48 |
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OMG, I'm so totally SERIES!!!11!!!1!!1 |
trotsky |
May-30-06 03:41 PM |
#49 |
| -
But that seems to be exactly what the OP is claiming. |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 05:41 PM |
#63 |
| -
No, it's not. |
beam me up scottie |
May-30-06 07:48 PM |
#74 |
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As long as you judge other people with the same standards by which |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 08:19 PM |
#81 |
| -
But don't some christians think that's a sin? |
beam me up scottie |
May-30-06 08:24 PM |
#84 |
| -
I'm sure there are some who do, since there are zillions of them. |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 08:40 PM |
#89 |
| -
WHo said anything about Little Lord Pissypants? |
beam me up scottie |
May-30-06 08:51 PM |
#93 |
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Many fundamentalists follow him solely because of his Christian robes. |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 08:58 PM |
#96 |
| -
I think that may be why some of them are parting company. |
beam me up scottie |
May-30-06 09:01 PM |
#97 |
| -
I don't know. Some of them seem so darn dumb. |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 09:06 PM |
#100 |
| -
I guess it depends what they want from him. |
beam me up scottie |
May-30-06 09:18 PM |
#103 |
| -
Which would also destroy Christianity, as far as I'm concerned. |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 09:33 PM |
#106 |
| -
No, not just a "poor representative." |
trotsky |
May-30-06 08:17 PM |
#79 |
| -
I think that would actually be more damning. |
beam me up scottie |
May-30-06 09:03 PM |
#99 |
| -
Alas, the fundamentalists don't seem to care much what liberal |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 10:00 PM |
#110 |
| -
But don't they care what others think? |
beam me up scottie |
May-30-06 10:12 PM |
#113 |
| -
I personally don't disown them as Christians |
TallahasseeGrannie |
May-31-06 11:14 AM |
#141 |
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Well said, T-Grannie. |
trotsky |
May-31-06 12:02 PM |
#146 |
| -
There is only one "rule" |
Joe for Clark |
May-30-06 03:19 PM |
#44 |
| -
How do you know? |
trotsky |
May-30-06 03:27 PM |
#46 |
| -
No, we end in the place we should be. |
Joe for Clark |
May-30-06 03:42 PM |
#50 |
| -
Again, you prove my point. |
trotsky |
May-30-06 03:50 PM |
#53 |
| -
NO no no |
Joe for Clark |
May-30-06 04:11 PM |
#61 |
| -
Then you're setting up the word "Christian" to encompass no one. |
trotsky |
May-30-06 08:37 PM |
#88 |
| -
That is one of the things Christians are supposed to struggle with. |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 08:46 PM |
#91 |
| -
I am glad you posted that - made me think of something |
Joe for Clark |
Jun-01-06 03:00 PM |
#191 |
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And in your view of Christianity, YOU are as much of a black and white |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 06:15 PM |
#69 |
| -
Okey dokey. |
trotsky |
May-30-06 08:13 PM |
#77 |
| -
Sorry we don't fit nicely into that box you want to squeeze us all in. |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 06:12 PM |
#68 |
| -
Totally on the contrary, |
trotsky |
May-30-06 08:12 PM |
#76 |
| -
No, you've made a box called "All Christians Go Here" and we don't. |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 08:20 PM |
#82 |
| -
Heh... no, your box is "all REAL Christians go here" |
trotsky |
May-30-06 08:25 PM |
#85 |
| -
My definition of a real Christian, for what its worth, has to include |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 09:15 PM |
#101 |
| -
But all you do there is shift the question, not answer it. |
trotsky |
May-31-06 06:59 AM |
#123 |
| -
I know some very solid Christians |
TallahasseeGrannie |
May-31-06 11:21 AM |
#143 |
| -
Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking of. |
trotsky |
May-31-06 12:03 PM |
#147 |
| -
Priests and a vow of poverty? |
Goblinmonger |
May-30-06 03:42 PM |
#51 |
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You don't know a lot about it. |
Joe for Clark |
May-30-06 03:56 PM |
#57 |
| -
For somebody who is talking smack |
Goblinmonger |
May-31-06 09:48 AM |
#132 |
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Uh-huh. Like atheists never disagree. Spare me. |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 05:36 PM |
#62 |
| -
Of course we do. We just don't go around judging the truthiness of atheism |
beam me up scottie |
May-30-06 07:56 PM |
#75 |
| -
Stalin a real atheist? WAS NOT!!!! |
BuffyTheFundieSlayer |
May-30-06 11:49 PM |
#117 |
| -
Well of course he wasn't. |
beam me up scottie |
May-30-06 11:56 PM |
#119 |
| -
Glad we cleared that up |
BuffyTheFundieSlayer |
May-31-06 12:38 AM |
#120 |
| -
Hmm |
TallahasseeGrannie |
May-30-06 02:50 PM |
#37 |
| -
I won't say this often Grannie |
Goblinmonger |
May-30-06 03:00 PM |
#39 |
| -
Oh man... |
TallahasseeGrannie |
May-31-06 07:24 AM |
#127 |
| -
All of them. |
Goblinmonger |
May-31-06 09:15 AM |
#131 |
| -
Well, the shoe will be on the proverbial other foot |
TallahasseeGrannie |
May-31-06 10:46 AM |
#137 |
| -
Yikes is right. |
Goblinmonger |
May-31-06 10:48 AM |
#138 |
| -
The Bible does it all the time |
manic expression |
May-30-06 03:20 PM |
#45 |
| -
I just love it when atheists sit around talking about what makes |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 03:51 PM |
#54 |
| -
actually, in fairness, I think the question is valid. |
Lerkfish |
May-30-06 03:54 PM |
#55 |
| -
It isn't enlightenment. I've heard a version of this question asked here |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 04:05 PM |
#59 |
| -
"Bush as the epitome of Christianity" No-one wants to set up * as the |
Random_Australian |
May-30-06 09:30 PM |
#105 |
| -
Bush has set himself up that way. He says he listens to his "real Father" |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 10:02 PM |
#111 |
| -
Uh, could we just clarify who 'they' refers to in this context? |
Random_Australian |
May-30-06 10:20 PM |
#115 |
| -
Sorry, but you were right the first time |
pnwmom |
May-31-06 09:57 AM |
#134 |
| -
how about a linky, please? |
Goblinmonger |
May-31-06 10:16 AM |
#136 |
| -
Hitler wasn't a true Christian. Bush isn't a true Christian. But I'm too |
pnwmom |
May-31-06 11:15 AM |
#142 |
| -
Family is much more important |
Goblinmonger |
May-31-06 12:37 PM |
#148 |
| -
Things are still up in the air |
pnwmom |
May-31-06 03:47 PM |
#149 |
| -
You mean the No True Scotsman fallacy? |
beam me up scottie |
May-31-06 06:30 PM |
#151 |
| -
I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to tell you your interpretation seems |
Random_Australian |
May-31-06 07:54 PM |
#157 |
| -
I don't think he represents christianity. |
beam me up scottie |
May-30-06 10:23 PM |
#116 |
| -
But atheism, correct me if I'm wrong, doesn't include a particular |
pnwmom |
May-31-06 10:11 AM |
#135 |
| -
P.S. I appreciated your "double bind" comment above. |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 04:08 PM |
#60 |
| -
Yeah, we can't compete with the professional hypocrites, though. |
beam me up scottie |
May-30-06 08:15 PM |
#78 |
| -
That bar has always been way up there. |
pnwmom |
May-30-06 10:03 PM |
#112 |
| -
See, I think that's what the op was trying to get at. |
beam me up scottie |
May-30-06 10:18 PM |
#114 |
| -
But how do we discourage people from following "false prophets" like |
pnwmom |
May-31-06 05:51 AM |
#122 |
| -
Some of us are former Christians |
BuffyTheFundieSlayer |
May-30-06 11:51 PM |
#118 |
| -
First of all, that's not what is happening here. |
Goblinmonger |
May-31-06 09:52 AM |
#133 |
| -
Anybody who worships christ is a christian..PERIOD! |
Evoman |
May-31-06 12:57 AM |
#121 |
| -
Says who? Who gives you the authority to make this statement? |
kwassa |
May-31-06 07:09 AM |
#124 |
| -
Literalist definition, philosophical proposition with presumption |
Random_Australian |
May-31-06 07:19 AM |
#125 |
| -
One definition among many |
kwassa |
May-31-06 07:23 AM |
#126 |
| -
I see. Conviction stemmed from the fact that it is, by definition, the |
Random_Australian |
May-31-06 07:30 AM |
#128 |
| -
What about someone who only pretends to be a believer? |
pnwmom |
May-31-06 07:48 PM |
#155 |
| -
Yes, of course |
Evoman |
May-31-06 08:09 PM |
#161 |
| -
I hope you're not saying that Hitler was a schmuck. |
pnwmom |
May-31-06 09:00 PM |
#164 |
| -
Wow, God has a wife. |
beam me up scottie |
May-31-06 09:02 PM |
#167 |
| -
I'm not reading minds, I'm judging Hitler purely on the basis |
pnwmom |
Jun-01-06 12:15 AM |
#178 |
| -
So it's your belief that he wasn't a christian, not a fact. |
beam me up scottie |
Jun-01-06 09:26 PM |
#192 |
| -
Your on a slippery slope pnwmom. |
bluesbassman |
Jun-02-06 02:12 AM |
#197 |
| -
No true Scotsman would put sugar on his porridge. |
beam me up scottie |
May-31-06 09:08 PM |
#169 |
| -
One could equate that statement to many Christians. |
Proud_Democratt |
May-31-06 09:20 PM |
#170 |
| -
sigh... |
beam me up scottie |
May-31-06 09:26 PM |
#172 |
| -
People who accept the "faith is everything" definition of Christianity |
pnwmom |
Jun-01-06 12:23 AM |
#179 |
| -
And, of course, YOUR personal brand of christianity is the TRUE one. |
beam me up scottie |
Jun-01-06 09:49 PM |
#193 |
| -
Lol...didn't Scottie just ask you the same thing? |
Evoman |
May-31-06 11:28 AM |
#144 |
| -
Sorry, but you don't make my definition, do you? |
kwassa |
May-31-06 11:32 AM |
#145 |
| -
Nice catch! Christians aren't legit unless they have kwassa's blessing. |
beam me up scottie |
May-31-06 06:14 PM |
#150 |
| -
There's a bit of a twist on this, I think, |
Ron_Green |
May-31-06 06:43 PM |
#152 |
| -
Isn't it possible for someone to PRETEND to be a Christian, for political |
pnwmom |
May-31-06 07:44 PM |
#153 |
| -
Sure, but then they wouldn't worship Christ and be excluded under his |
Random_Australian |
May-31-06 07:48 PM |
#154 |
| -
The Bush family occasionally goes to services. That doesn't tell me that |
pnwmom |
May-31-06 07:58 PM |
#158 |
| -
That could well be merely their interpretation of the Bible, after all |
Random_Australian |
May-31-06 08:07 PM |
#160 |
| -
It's no different that the decision we make on a daily basis as |
pnwmom |
May-31-06 08:56 PM |
#163 |
| -
Yes. Now we agree on that, let us see the nub of contention; can |
Random_Australian |
May-31-06 09:02 PM |
#166 |
| -
We are really looking at this from different angles, but it all comes |
pnwmom |
Jun-01-06 02:58 AM |
#187 |
| -
"by his fruits" |
sandnsea |
Jun-01-06 02:29 AM |
#184 |
| -
Yes, sandnsea, that's how I feel too. |
pnwmom |
Jun-01-06 03:08 AM |
#188 |
| -
And how would you know? |
beam me up scottie |
May-31-06 07:52 PM |
#156 |
| -
No, but we often have to live with uncertainty. Even though it would |
pnwmom |
May-31-06 08:04 PM |
#159 |
| -
To give examples at opposite ends of the spectrum |
pnwmom |
May-31-06 08:52 PM |
#162 |
| -
So you have the right to decide that he's not a true christian. |
beam me up scottie |
May-31-06 09:01 PM |
#165 |
| -
I have the same right to decide that I do whenever I need to make |
pnwmom |
May-31-06 09:22 PM |
#171 |
| -
I believe you when you say you're a christian. |
beam me up scottie |
May-31-06 09:28 PM |
#173 |
| -
If you believe me only because you believe ANYONE who says they are, |
pnwmom |
Jun-01-06 12:07 AM |
#177 |
| -
Alright, here is my problem, where do you draw the line, and for this |
Random_Australian |
May-31-06 09:07 PM |
#168 |
| -
I think all true Christians should be tested.... |
Proud_Democratt |
May-31-06 09:28 PM |
#174 |
| -
Robertson would qualify easily |
BuffyTheFundieSlayer |
May-31-06 11:46 PM |
#176 |
| -
I think all true atheists should be tested |
pnwmom |
Jun-01-06 12:28 AM |
#180 |
| -
Uh, I'll presume you are joking..... |
Random_Australian |
Jun-01-06 02:17 AM |
#183 |
| -
I presume you missed Proud_democratt's post #174. My post is a "back at |
pnwmom |
Jun-01-06 02:48 AM |
#185 |
| -
I suggested the test in post 174 because..... |
Proud_Democratt |
Jun-01-06 05:58 AM |
#189 |
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This is an ancient metaphor, proud_Democratt, but who |
pnwmom |
Jun-01-06 09:38 AM |
#190 |
| -
There are some Christians here |
BuffyTheFundieSlayer |
Jun-02-06 12:43 AM |
#196 |
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Since I can't see into his soul (unlike GWB, who professes that special |
pnwmom |
May-31-06 09:57 PM |
#175 |
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Sorry, allow me some small clarifications - firstly, this was a sake |
Random_Australian |
Jun-01-06 02:16 AM |
#182 |
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I don't think it is possible to draw a bright line. It's more like making |
pnwmom |
Jun-01-06 02:50 AM |
#186 |
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Having spent 3 years in a seminary, methinks... |
TreasonousBastard |
Jun-02-06 12:34 AM |
#195 |
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