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Reply #93: That old "primo genitor" garbage again. [View All]

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Eileen Donating Member (150 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-01-06 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #91
93. That old "primo genitor" garbage again.
godzebe said:
*First, I feel compelled to point out that your overt hostility is unbecoming and unproductive. You sure have a big chip on your shoulder about something.
You might try for a rebate on that faulty psychoanalysis plugin on your computer.

I am not an angry girl
but it seems like I've got everyone fooled
every time I say something they find hard to hear
they chalk it up to my anger
and never to their own fear
Ani Difranco - Not A Pretty Girl

* Adding this "context" does not change the preposterous nature of your position. You have postulated the existence of a "singularity" (which is really nothing more than a rhetorical device) in order to avoid the conclusion that there was a Creator of the universe.
I have "postulated" nothing and the 'position' is not one I have made. I have presented the current thinking of quantum physicists with respect to the origins of the universe as we know it. If you feel yourself qualified to argue with the likes of Einstein and Hawking then have at it - but somehow you appear too easily influenced by superstition and "magic thinking" to take on that challenge. What really is preposteruos is the explanation you provide by use of petitio principii of a "creator".

Now perhaps you could explain how you derived the non sequitur of the magic "creator" that you drag from nowhere. Who is this magic creator? I'll bet it's her horniness the - IPU (pbuH) -. You might also explain why it is necessary for physicists and other scientists to conspire to explain what they actually can observe and demonstrate in such a way that the existence of imaginary Sky Fairies, IPUs, Spagetti Monsters, and similar theistic nonsense is "required to be" ignored and not actually ignored because it is nonsensical balderdash.
*Then you are forced to also hypothesize that this "singularity" came into existence at a particular time in the past.

The singularity did not "come into existence"! What I explained is that using our current time space continuum we can regress back to a time very shortly after the singularity. Anything prior to that is undefined. What part of "undefined" are you having problems with since you appear to be dragging up defined concepts from nowhere? (for example: obvious questions regarding the origin of the singularity and how it (containing billions of galaxies worth of highly complex matter and all the energy in the universe, as well as the "programming" to make itself expand into the universe as we know it) could possibly have come into existence all on its own without a cause,) Where did you drag that horse manure from and how could the things you define there be "undefined"? You appear to be twisting scientific concepts to fit them into your superstition.

In order to insulate yourself from the you assert that "before the singularity" came into existence, rules of physics, math and logic don't apply. QED

Once more - ANYYTHING beyond the singularity, if there is anything, is undefined - therefore we cannot know what "rules" or "laws" can be used beyond the singularity - Do you really believe you can divide by ?

*It's no figment. I am just referring to your own words. It is your premise that once upon a time, there was a "singularity," and that there was a time "before the singularity" as to which all rules of physics, math and logic "don't apply."


There is no concept of time before the singularity so your sentence is nonsense. Time as we know it ends at the singularity. Do you understand the meaning of "ends"?
*S1 - As I have noted in other threads, it is logically impossible for anything to create itself,
S2 - because until it is created, it is not there to do the creating.
S3 - Therefore, the universe could not have created itself,
S4 - and must have been caused to come into existence (created) by some force outside the universe.

S4 is not derived from S1-2-3. It is a speculative "fill in" created by you and those who ignore infinity. A first cause may give them warm fuzzies but it's meaningless - and unsupported.

Therefore when you say:
* So we know that (1) the universe was created; and (2) the creation was supernatural; and (3) the Creator was extremely, awe-inspiringly powerful.
we actually know that you are bullshitting because we know nothing of the kind and you certainly have not given us any reason or basis to even suspect what you claim is valid.

*I refer to this supernatural Creator of the Universe as "God."

You can refer to your mythical beast as whatever you want since it is obvious that you and similar cult members are the ones that created it.

I'll ignore the rest of your post which is a poor attempt at Sophistry in place of logic.
*I'll close by saying that anyone who is capable of so quickly offending and alienating TallahassieGrannie as you did fares poorly by the comparison. She is the type of poster that gets along with everyone. But I can see that's not your style.

No matter how benign the theist appears humoring them cedes some credibility to their incredible position. That incredible position and its mind addled adherents are the most destructive and evil force on our planet. I consider less than vigorous opposition to this evil to be the equivelant of silence.

Check out -beam me up scottie's- journal piece, or William Pitts - "I see four lights".


Eileen
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  -Why I don't like being told I have a belief system Goblinmonger  Mar-28-06 04:12 PM   #0 
  - The fallacy in your argument is that the football non-fan...  SteppingRazor   Mar-28-06 04:16 PM   #1 
  - Good point  Goblinmonger   Mar-28-06 04:18 PM   #2 
  - If you have "an ABSENCE of belief in god..."  dchill   Mar-28-06 04:21 PM   #3 
  - To truly believe in God demands proof in our lives..  believerinchrist   Mar-28-06 04:27 PM   #5 
  - Your definition of atheist and agnostic confuse me  sybylla   Mar-28-06 05:10 PM   #10 
  - Here's the problem I have with the atheist def.  Goblinmonger   Mar-28-06 07:05 PM   #21 
  - I have have problems with how the words have been construed  sybylla   Mar-28-06 08:42 PM   #35 
     - I'm with you  Goblinmonger   Mar-29-06 06:34 AM   #60 
  - They are not my definitions.  dchill   Mar-28-06 10:41 PM   #47 
  - The founder of Websters was a raging fundy himself......  A HERETIC I AM   Mar-29-06 01:06 AM   #53 
     - Good analogy  Goblinmonger   Mar-29-06 06:35 AM   #61 
  - I don't consider myself an agnostic  Goblinmonger   Mar-28-06 07:03 PM   #20 
  - If belief is not a choice, what is?  dchill   Mar-28-06 09:46 PM   #39 
     - Anything is not possible  Goblinmonger   Mar-29-06 06:37 AM   #62 
     - You're blurring the difference between "believing" and "accepting"  Orrex   Mar-29-06 09:25 AM   #69 
     - This is an old problem that never seems to get addressed.  WakingLife   Apr-03-06 09:19 PM   #157 
  - I respectfully disagree  Orrex   Mar-28-06 09:16 PM   #38 
     - That is also the original and MY definition of atheism.  beam me up scottie   Mar-28-06 09:54 PM   #40 
     - I still think I'm right...  dchill   Mar-28-06 10:01 PM   #43 
     - Disbelief is not a positive claim  BuffyTheFundieSlayer   Mar-29-06 12:34 AM   #49 
        - A fine post, though "Weak" and "Strong" have always bothered me as labels!  Orrex   Mar-29-06 09:08 AM   #66 
           - "I have to waste time explaining..."  dchill   Mar-29-06 04:41 PM   #74 
           - ......  BuffyTheFundieSlayer   Mar-30-06 01:06 AM   #79 
              - Well, that IS a problem...  dchill   Mar-30-06 02:14 AM   #81 
           - I'm not thrilled with the labels either  BuffyTheFundieSlayer   Mar-30-06 01:10 AM   #80 
           - "Agnostic atheist" vs. "Gnostic atheist" would be more proper.  IMModerate   Apr-03-06 11:16 AM   #156 
     - Okay, I'm getting on the same page  TallahasseeGrannie   Mar-29-06 06:10 PM   #75 
        - I'll have a stab at it, Grannie...  opiate69   Mar-29-06 07:34 PM   #78 
  - But the Vikings are a real team,  believerinchrist   Mar-28-06 04:24 PM   #4 
  - Yeah  Goblinmonger   Mar-28-06 07:07 PM   #22 
     - I get it..  believerinchrist   Mar-28-06 07:14 PM   #28 
        - Not ignoring you  Goblinmonger   Mar-28-06 07:55 PM   #33 
  - Excellent Post!  arwalden   Mar-28-06 04:43 PM   #6 
  - I hope you don't consider me a bigot.  believerinchrist   Mar-28-06 04:56 PM   #7 
  - I Do Not Consider You To Be An Anti-Atheist Bigot...  arwalden   Mar-28-06 05:06 PM   #8 
  - I'm just curious,  believerinchrist   Mar-28-06 06:50 PM   #17 
     - Would YOU Ignore Someone Who Used Their Scriptures...  arwalden   Mar-28-06 08:51 PM   #37 
        - I apologize--I was just looking at the belief system...  believerinchrist   Mar-28-06 09:57 PM   #42 
  - Hey, welcome to DU!  Orrex   Mar-29-06 09:08 AM   #67 
  - Thanks for the support  Goblinmonger   Mar-28-06 07:08 PM   #23 
  - Good Idea... I'd Enjoy That.  arwalden   Mar-29-06 09:11 AM   #68 
     - I'll keep that in mind  Goblinmonger   Mar-29-06 09:27 AM   #70 
  - Well, I think atheists have belief systems  TallahasseeGrannie   Mar-29-06 06:17 PM   #76 
     - Not so --  Eileen   Mar-30-06 02:48 PM   #83 
     - Not so --  Eileen   Mar-30-06 02:49 PM   #84 
  - You may not have a "belief system," but...  TreasonousBastard   Mar-28-06 05:10 PM   #9 
  - Has he actually made such a claim?  arwalden   Mar-28-06 05:39 PM   #11 
  - Why does religion interest you, if you have no belief?  kwassa   Mar-28-06 06:26 PM   #15 
  - Actually...  arwalden   Mar-28-06 06:37 PM   #16 
     - So, would it be accurate to describe it as paranoia about religious  kwassa   Mar-28-06 06:58 PM   #19 
        - Dude, seriously  Goblinmonger   Mar-28-06 07:12 PM   #25 
        - Um, the question was addressed to arwalden, why do you answer?  kwassa   Mar-28-06 07:29 PM   #29 
           - OK  Goblinmonger   Mar-28-06 07:48 PM   #32 
        - Oh Good Grief... Grow Up!  arwalden   Mar-28-06 08:30 PM   #34 
  - The question was halfway rhetorical...  TreasonousBastard   Mar-28-06 09:56 PM   #41 
  - being a non-believer in a believer's world is like  sybylla   Mar-28-06 05:58 PM   #13 
  - Nice analogy  Goblinmonger   Mar-28-06 07:13 PM   #26 
  - As I mentioned elsewhere-- you do have...  TreasonousBastard   Mar-28-06 10:16 PM   #45 
  - I have a masters in communication  Goblinmonger   Mar-28-06 07:10 PM   #24 
  - As I said in #41...  TreasonousBastard   Mar-28-06 10:09 PM   #44 
     - Let me clarify  Goblinmonger   Mar-29-06 06:41 AM   #63 
  - Religion has a major impact on life in America  BuffyTheFundieSlayer   Mar-29-06 12:53 AM   #51 
  - I agree...  TreasonousBastard   Mar-29-06 02:06 AM   #56 
     - Very true  BuffyTheFundieSlayer   Mar-29-06 02:10 AM   #57 
  - I can understand the interest in defining one's beliefs  TallahasseeGrannie   Mar-29-06 06:34 PM   #77 
  - Though the analogy is a smidge flawed, I appreciate it  sybylla   Mar-28-06 05:51 PM   #12 
  - Thanks  Goblinmonger   Mar-28-06 07:14 PM   #27 
     - Truthfully, no criticism was intended  sybylla   Mar-28-06 08:48 PM   #36 
  - Non-theist - not atheist.  Eileen   Mar-28-06 06:21 PM   #14 
  - One giant flaw in your argument, among others  kwassa   Mar-28-06 06:56 PM   #18 
  - No flaw -  Eileen   Mar-28-06 10:37 PM   #46 
     - Incorrect  Frangible   Mar-29-06 01:12 AM   #54 
        - Faith in what?  beam me up scottie   Mar-29-06 01:26 AM   #55 
        - There is no such thing as absence of thought  salvorhardin   Mar-29-06 02:23 AM   #58 
        - I think what he means is absence of conscious thought.  WritingIsMyReligion   Apr-01-06 08:54 AM   #92 
        - A semantic quibble  Goblinmonger   Mar-29-06 08:58 AM   #64 
        - Gobblydegook.  Eileen   Mar-29-06 01:33 PM   #72 
           - ooh, I'm all excited  Goblinmonger   Mar-29-06 02:03 PM   #73 
  - "we invent answers and demand others accept them"  dchill   Mar-28-06 11:05 PM   #48 
  - Welcome to D.U.!  Strong Atheist   Mar-29-06 06:06 AM   #59 
  - Welcome to DU, Eileen  TallahasseeGrannie   Mar-30-06 07:31 AM   #82 
  - Unfortunate!  Eileen   Mar-30-06 03:13 PM   #85 
     - You obviously have a lot of anger regarding this  TallahasseeGrannie   Mar-31-06 08:13 AM   #86 
        - That old fallback of the theistic aoplogist -  Eileen   Mar-31-06 01:47 PM   #88 
  - Nice post, but this part has always amused me  Zebedeo   Mar-31-06 08:39 PM   #89 
     - A matter of paradigms  Eileen   Mar-31-06 09:34 PM   #90 
        - You put in in context all right  Zebedeo   Mar-31-06 10:56 PM   #91 
           - That old "primo genitor" garbage again.  Eileen   Apr-01-06 03:27 PM   #93 
              - "Before the singularity"  Zebedeo   Apr-01-06 05:18 PM   #94 
                 - Deleted message  Name removed   Apr-01-06 06:01 PM   #95 
                    - Your own words are  Zebedeo   Apr-01-06 06:30 PM   #96 
                       - Those words appear as PART OF A SENTENCE!!!!!  Eileen   Apr-01-06 06:53 PM   #97 
  - To reply to your OP  kwassa   Mar-28-06 07:35 PM   #30 
  - So  Goblinmonger   Mar-28-06 07:47 PM   #31 
  - Thanks for the answer.  kwassa   Mar-29-06 12:21 PM   #71 
  - You wrote:  TallahasseeGrannie   Mar-31-06 12:52 PM   #87 
  - Why do you spend so much time telling us we don't know how to  beam me up scottie   Mar-29-06 12:38 AM   #50 
  - It appears to me  Goblinmonger   Mar-29-06 09:01 AM   #65 
  - Maybe because so many people keep contradicting us  BuffyTheFundieSlayer   Mar-29-06 12:57 AM   #52 
  - Define Fairy tale and religion.  The Straight Story   Apr-02-06 10:34 PM   #98 
     - So when an atheist speaks it's to "spread their belief of non-belief"?  beam me up scottie   Apr-02-06 10:39 PM   #99 
        - Which stage?  The Straight Story   Apr-02-06 10:48 PM   #100 
        - That's the only thing you got out of the op?  beam me up scottie   Apr-02-06 10:52 PM   #101 
           - Was not discussing other threads.  The Straight Story   Apr-02-06 11:01 PM   #103 
              - What a crock.  beam me up scottie   Apr-02-06 11:04 PM   #104 
              - So what is the point of such threads  The Straight Story   Apr-02-06 11:19 PM   #109 
                 - If you have to ask that  beam me up scottie   Apr-02-06 11:22 PM   #112 
                    - Well that was a nice non-answer  The Straight Story   Apr-02-06 11:24 PM   #114 
                       - You come here to discuss religion and theology but atheists don't.  beam me up scottie   Apr-02-06 11:33 PM   #119 
                          - No desire for an echo chamber  The Straight Story   Apr-02-06 11:51 PM   #128 
                             - YOU jumped into THIS thread and now you're whining it's offensive?  beam me up scottie   Apr-02-06 11:56 PM   #131 
                             - So now name calling?  The Straight Story   Apr-02-06 11:59 PM   #135 
                                - There's a lot of things you're not seeing.  beam me up scottie   Apr-03-06 12:03 AM   #137 
                             - Why Do You Hate Atheists?  arwalden   Apr-03-06 08:51 AM   #151 
              - Knock-knock-knock! -- Uh, hello! We're from the atheist, uh, church...  arwalden   Apr-02-06 11:08 PM   #106 
                 - Don't forget about atheist suicide bombers.  beam me up scottie   Apr-02-06 11:14 PM   #107 
                 - Talking in general  The Straight Story   Apr-02-06 11:21 PM   #110 
                    - Oh look. Another "atheists don't belong in here" post.  beam me up scottie   Apr-02-06 11:23 PM   #113 
                    - Oh look - there is an atheists and agnostics group  The Straight Story   Apr-02-06 11:26 PM   #115 
                       - Take it up with Skinner.  beam me up scottie   Apr-02-06 11:29 PM   #116 
                       - well, you do have your own forum...  The Straight Story   Apr-02-06 11:30 PM   #117 
                          - Do you really not know the difference between a group and a forum?  beam me up scottie   Apr-02-06 11:35 PM   #120 
                             - Why come here?  The Straight Story   Apr-02-06 11:45 PM   #124 
                                - There are groups and there are forums  GreenJ   Apr-02-06 11:49 PM   #126 
                                - So you want to discuss republican ideals and how they are better?  The Straight Story   Apr-02-06 11:56 PM   #132 
                                   - Why can't you understand the difference between groups and forums?  beam me up scottie   Apr-02-06 11:59 PM   #134 
                                      - Faith??? LOL that is a good one.  The Straight Story   Apr-03-06 12:00 AM   #136 
                                         - Ah, I found a word you understand.  beam me up scottie   Apr-03-06 12:04 AM   #138 
                                            - I am cool with that :)  The Straight Story   Apr-03-06 12:14 AM   #141 
                                            - The op did not "rip apart" anyone's faith.  beam me up scottie   Apr-03-06 12:24 AM   #143 
                                            - That's cool, and I apologize  The Straight Story   Apr-03-06 10:10 PM   #158 
                                            - I'm sorry too, for losing my temper.  beam me up scottie   Apr-04-06 07:44 PM   #159 
                                - Stop misrepresenting us.  beam me up scottie   Apr-02-06 11:54 PM   #130 
                                - Is Your Faith *THAT* Weak?  arwalden   Apr-03-06 08:54 AM   #152 
                       - You're joking right?  GreenJ   Apr-02-06 11:33 PM   #118 
                       - Dense?  The Straight Story   Apr-02-06 11:37 PM   #121 
                          - Yep, dense it is.  beam me up scottie   Apr-02-06 11:39 PM   #122 
                          - There are religious groups as well as an atheists and agnostics group  GreenJ   Apr-02-06 11:42 PM   #123 
                             - Well I can see that  The Straight Story   Apr-02-06 11:48 PM   #125 
                                - Why are you pretending atheists are trying to deconvert you?  beam me up scottie   Apr-02-06 11:50 PM   #127 
                                - I'll Choose "Paranoid DUers" For $500, Alex.  arwalden   Apr-03-06 08:32 AM   #148 
                                - So I should just ignore people trying to force religion into government?  GreenJ   Apr-02-06 11:52 PM   #129 
                                - Don't bother.  beam me up scottie   Apr-02-06 11:57 PM   #133 
                                - Gosh, did I say that, I missed it.  The Straight Story   Apr-03-06 12:07 AM   #139 
                                   - For the last time,  beam me up scottie   Apr-03-06 12:12 AM   #140 
                                   - This has definitely gotten pointless  GreenJ   Apr-03-06 12:18 AM   #142 
                                      - sigh...  beam me up scottie   Apr-03-06 12:26 AM   #144 
                                      - Yes, that... mixed with a good dose of irrational fear and paranoia.  arwalden   Apr-03-06 08:39 AM   #150 
                                   - Heh-heh-heh! -- Relax, Francis... It's NOT All About You.  arwalden   Apr-03-06 08:34 AM   #149 
                                   - Sorry I missed this last night  Goblinmonger   Apr-03-06 10:02 AM   #154 
                                - Not everyone thinks like you.  arwalden   Apr-03-06 08:27 AM   #147 
                       - Ah-HA! --- So You *ARE* Projecting!  arwalden   Apr-03-06 08:25 AM   #146 
                    - Project Much? This Happens To Be A Subject That Interests Me.  arwalden   Apr-03-06 08:12 AM   #145 
                       - I like to use the name from Will and Grace  Goblinmonger   Apr-03-06 10:04 AM   #155 
        - It's In Short Supply For SOME... But Not For Others.  arwalden   Apr-02-06 10:59 PM   #102 
           - But of course. The uppity atheists are forcing their agenda on believers.  beam me up scottie   Apr-02-06 11:06 PM   #105 
              - I Can Think Of Three Or Four Right Here At DU...  arwalden   Apr-02-06 11:19 PM   #108 
                 - Maybe we should start disrupting  beam me up scottie   Apr-02-06 11:21 PM   #111 
                    - That Would Be Dangerous... And You Know Why.  arwalden   Apr-03-06 09:12 AM   #153 
 

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