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Reply #168: So why don't you ask Peacetrain whether she believes [View All]

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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-03-11 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #164
168. So why don't you ask Peacetrain whether she believes
Edited on Sun Jul-03-11 12:00 PM by okasha
the parts of the Bible in question are literally true?

Why ignore or disregard some parts of scripture? Easy. The Bible is not a book. It is books, plural, produced over a minimum period of seven hundred years by different writers with different political and religious agendas. What you are referring to as the OT god is actually the god of the Josaian reforms. Oddly enough, like Josiah and the Deuteronomist wrter, this god is intent on establishing monotheism, asserting the primacy of temple worship in Jerusalem, expanding Judahite territory to encompass the northern kingdom of Israel, and wiping out the "idolatries" that had hitherto been an accepted part of the religion of Judah and Israel. This was the point at which a unified kingdom of Judah and Israel comparable to the kingdom attributed to David and Solomon almost emerged. Unfortunately for Josiah, he pissed off Pharaoh Necho as he passed through Israel on his way to do battle with the Assyrians and paid for his indiscretion with his life.

The books created by, or under the supervision of, the Deuteronomist writer reflect Josiah's era and are meant to glorify him and his policies. These include Deuteronomy itself, the "newly discovered ancient scroll of the law;" Joshua; Judges and the "Court Histories:" Samuel, Kings and Chronicles. Archaeology (see Finkelstein's and Silberman's The Bible Unearthed has fairly clearly demonstrated that there was no "conquest of Canaan" as presented in the book of Joshua. Rather, the "Israelites" emerged from among the Canannite population of Palestine, pastoralists who settled into an agricultural lifestyle in the highlands but had little to distinguish them from other Canaanites except a taboo on pork. There were no massacres, at the behest of Yahweh or anyone else. Saul, David and Solomon appear to have been local chieftains centered in southern Judah. Possibly they were, or began as, bandits. Possibly David made himself a nuisance to the Philistines. He doesn't seem to have been more than that. The glories of the united kingdom presented in the court histories were actually "borrowed" from the wealthy Omride kindom of Israel, ruled by the dynasty that included Ahab and Jezebel. And again, they were meant to promote Josiah as the restorer of former glory. There's history in there, yes, but you have to dig for it. Literally.

You, are, though, precisely right when you make the comparison to the Iliad. What we have in the books of Exodus, Joshua and parts of the court histories is a deliberately composed national epic. The men--probably it was exclusively men--who produced these narratives were not "ignorant Bronze Age sheepherders." They were literate, intelligent and clearly familiar with the Mediterranean and Mesopotamian cultures around them. Judah/Israel was emerging as a nation among other nations. Achaia had its Homeric poems; Assyria had Gilgamesh; Egypt had an extensive religious and secular literature; of course Josiah's kingdom should have an epic of its own.

And so we have the triuphant exodus from Egypt, poking a finger in the eye of Josiah's nominal Egyptian overlord on the way. We have the conquering hero Joshua and a reprise with David. (The single combat between David and Goliath is probably constructed on the Greek model of the combat of champions, eg., Hector and Achilles.) It's a wonderful, rattling adventure story, with lots of sex and violence and no small flavor of soap opera in spots. It's very much like every other national epic, in fact, with the god(s) taking part and favoring his/their chosen heroes. What it is not is anything resembling accurate history.

The god of this epic, by the way, is very, very different from the Yahweh of the prophets in the later books of the OT. Isaiah's god is the lord of the peacable kingdom; Micah's god requires his followers to "do justice and love mercy; Zechariah and others dwell on the future kingdom of Yahweh on earth,ruled by the king/messiah in perfect peace and justice. The change reflects the later history of Israel as it was repeatedly conquered and depopulated by various of its neighbors, and it transitions seamlessly into a New Testament milieu in which Israel is once again occupied by a much stronger, tyrannical power. It's not Josiah's triumphalist god that Jesus preaches; it's the prophets' god who suffers with his people.

So I have another question: given that what we have here is not one book but many, not one author but many, not one theological viewpoint by a widely differing array of theologies--why is it a matter of contention that a reader or believer should credit different parts of the collection selectively? Why the support the fundamentalist view that it's a unified, connected narrative when the evidence is directly to the contrary?
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  -This is what happens when a religion is hijacked for political gain Peacetrain  Jun-29-11 03:35 PM   #0 
  - No True Scotsman...  provis99   Jun-29-11 03:39 PM   #1 
  - somebody is going to have to explain the scotman thing to me  Peacetrain   Jun-29-11 03:40 PM   #3 
     - A Tired Forensic Wheeze, Ma'am  The Magistrate   Jun-29-11 04:05 PM   #7 
     - TY for the explanation  Peacetrain   Jun-29-11 04:19 PM   #10 
     - Here's the original source.  laconicsax   Jun-29-11 04:21 PM   #11 
  - wow, somebody unrecced this? a little scared of the truth?  niyad   Jun-29-11 03:40 PM   #2 
  - What truth? Everything in the OP seems like opinion. nt  ZombieHorde   Jun-29-11 03:42 PM   #4 
     - you mean the quote from hitler? are you the unrec?  niyad   Jun-29-11 03:43 PM   #5 
     - I mean the post in its entirety, as a whole object. It's an opinion based OP.  ZombieHorde   Jun-29-11 04:45 PM   #19 
     - Okay I'll bite.. what in my op is opinion only?  Peacetrain   Jun-29-11 03:52 PM   #6 
        - "This is what happens when a religion is hijacked for political gain"  ZombieHorde   Jun-29-11 05:02 PM   #20 
           - The point of the Hitler quote  Peacetrain   Jun-29-11 07:25 PM   #37 
              - There are a lot of different interpretations of Christianity, but they're all opinion.  ZombieHorde   Jun-29-11 07:52 PM   #38 
                 - You miss the point.... but I tried.  Peacetrain   Jun-29-11 08:51 PM   #41 
                    - No, he knows what your point was.  trotsky   Jun-29-11 09:16 PM   #42 
                    - okay.. read my op and what is my point..  Peacetrain   Jun-30-11 08:53 AM   #46 
                       - Your assumption is that a religion was "hijacked."  trotsky   Jun-30-11 09:02 AM   #48 
                          - Hitler killing millions of people is 180% opposite of my religious stance  Peacetrain   Jun-30-11 09:15 AM   #49 
                             - Hitler believed he was saving Christianity, and working in the name of Jesus.  trotsky   Jun-30-11 09:46 AM   #50 
                             - Nope.. even if he believed it.. he was going 180 degrees away  Peacetrain   Jun-30-11 09:53 AM   #51 
                             - Again, I am not disagreeing with you on that.  trotsky   Jun-30-11 09:56 AM   #52 
                                - The golden rule..  Peacetrain   Jun-30-11 09:59 AM   #53 
                                - Yes, thank you, that was my point. n/t  trotsky   Jun-30-11 11:03 AM   #56 
                                - But again that is the whole premise of the orignal op.  Peacetrain   Jun-30-11 10:01 AM   #54 
                                   - Not your faith, your INTERPRETATION of it. As I've been saying this whole time.  trotsky   Jun-30-11 11:03 AM   #55 
                                      - We really are missing each other on this one aren't we  Peacetrain   Jun-30-11 11:08 AM   #57 
                                         - Zoom in on this: "the stated tenet of the belief system"  trotsky   Jun-30-11 11:16 AM   #58 
                                            - Yes I did zoom on exactly that..  Peacetrain   Jun-30-11 11:23 AM   #59 
                                            - No, you're missing it completely.  trotsky   Jun-30-11 12:30 PM   #62 
                                            - It is not open to interpretation.. and that is where we are missing one another  Peacetrain   Jun-30-11 12:46 PM   #64 
                                            - "but you cannot kill millions of people and say you are protecting the Christian faith"  cleanhippie   Jun-30-11 02:41 PM   #72 
                                            - You cannot be a Christian and kill millions of people in gas chambers  Peacetrain   Jun-30-11 02:54 PM   #73 
                                            - Oh, so now its gas chambers? Your goalposts seem to have wheels.  cleanhippie   Jun-30-11 03:08 PM   #74 
                                            - Hitler had millions killed in gas chambers..  Peacetrain   Jun-30-11 03:11 PM   #75 
                                            - Lets review exatcly what you said.  cleanhippie   Jun-30-11 03:55 PM   #79 
                                            - That is right you cannot kill millions of people and claim you are protecting the Christian faith  Peacetrain   Jun-30-11 04:01 PM   #80 
                                            - Still waiting for the biblical claim you said of Christians killing millions in the bible  Peacetrain   Jun-30-11 04:03 PM   #81 
                                            - This clearly is at a dead end.  trotsky   Jun-30-11 07:29 PM   #90 
                                            - Well I do not know how to explain it anymore either.  Peacetrain   Jun-30-11 08:26 PM   #93 
                                            - Answer me just one question that you have completely avoided:  trotsky   Jun-30-11 08:32 PM   #94 
                                            - Trotsky.. there is no wrong or right interpretations  Peacetrain   Jun-30-11 08:37 PM   #95 
                                            - You're still not answering the question.  trotsky   Jun-30-11 09:45 PM   #98 
                                            - No.  Peacetrain   Jul-01-11 06:04 AM   #101 
                                            - Wow.  trotsky   Jul-01-11 06:16 AM   #103 
                                            - You really are having a hard time with this  Peacetrain   Jul-01-11 06:53 AM   #104 
                                            - You sound as certain about your beliefs...  trotsky   Jul-01-11 07:06 AM   #105 
                                            - I am certain that you cannot kill millions of people and claim  Peacetrain   Jul-01-11 07:59 AM   #108 
                                            - What if an army of 2 million soldiers had their sworn goal as the destruction of Christianity?  trotsky   Jul-01-11 08:17 AM   #110 
                                            - I thought you left.. you keep saying goodby and back in :)  Peacetrain   Jul-01-11 08:34 AM   #113 
                                            - You're getting closer!  trotsky   Jul-01-11 08:50 AM   #114 
                                            - No you cannot take this and make an argument for Hitler  Peacetrain   Jul-01-11 08:53 AM   #115 
                                            - I'm not making an argument for him.  trotsky   Jul-01-11 08:55 AM   #116 
                                            - So a person of faith has no right to have perimeters or values to live by?  Peacetrain   Jul-01-11 08:59 AM   #117 
                                            - I didn't say that.  trotsky   Jul-01-11 09:02 AM   #118 
                                            - In this case, it is not what I said.. it is what the text for Christians say  Peacetrain   Jul-01-11 09:08 AM   #119 
                                            - Because you said so.  trotsky   Jul-01-11 09:14 AM   #120 
                                            - We are done again?  Peacetrain   Jul-01-11 09:19 AM   #121 
                                            - Well, I kinda thought we had a chance for some progress...  trotsky   Jul-01-11 09:20 AM   #122 
                                            - Oh trotsky.. I have enjoyed talking to you  Peacetrain   Jul-01-11 09:23 AM   #123 
                                            - I always find it amazing when someone is in their own circular logic loop and cannot see it.  cleanhippie   Jul-01-11 01:57 PM   #130 
                                            - Still waiting for the biblical claim you said of Christians killing millions in the bible  Peacetrain   Jul-01-11 02:16 PM   #131 
                                            - Since google must not be working for you...  cleanhippie   Jul-01-11 04:20 PM   #136 
                                            - The only person rationalizing.. is you..  Peacetrain   Jul-01-11 04:41 PM   #139 
                                            - Wait, what? You are the one that believes in the supernatural, and *I* am the one rationalizing?  cleanhippie   Jul-01-11 05:10 PM   #141 
                                            - Just admit it.. You were wrong..  Peacetrain   Jul-01-11 05:18 PM   #143 
                                            - No he's right.  edhopper   Jul-02-11 08:28 AM   #145 
                                            - You are making the same error that he did  Peacetrain   Jul-02-11 08:35 AM   #146 
                                            - So was the OT God  edhopper   Jul-02-11 08:44 AM   #147 
                                            - Now you are on a totally differenet subject.  Peacetrain   Jul-02-11 08:48 AM   #148 
                                            - No I am going by YOUR assertion that  edhopper   Jul-02-11 09:29 AM   #150 
                                            - You can't  Peacetrain   Jul-02-11 09:35 AM   #151 
                                            - So the  edhopper   Jul-02-11 09:51 AM   #152 
                                            - You want me to defend my belief system?  Peacetrain   Jul-02-11 10:12 AM   #153 
                                            - You can believe what you want  edhopper   Jul-02-11 12:17 PM   #158 
                                            - Ah, so you don't believe that any of the genocides and massacres  okasha   Jul-02-11 12:36 PM   #159 
                                            - There is nothing to defend..Absolutes have a place when you define yourself.  Peacetrain   Jul-02-11 01:36 PM   #160 
                                            - ed.. I have to get going for a while  Peacetrain   Jul-02-11 10:31 AM   #154 
                                            - How about your answering the question I asked in #149?  okasha   Jul-02-11 10:34 AM   #155 
                                            - Let's get something clear.  okasha   Jul-02-11 08:59 AM   #149 
                                            - That's exactly what the claim is. It's always the same,  Leontius   Jul-02-11 10:37 AM   #156 
                                            - He certainly seems to be avoiding the question.  okasha   Jul-02-11 10:46 AM   #157 
                                            - Sure. It's a "gotcha."  okasha   Jul-02-11 03:43 PM   #161 
                                            - Are these questions for  edhopper   Jul-03-11 09:36 AM   #162 
                                            - They're for you,  okasha   Jul-03-11 09:54 AM   #163 
                                            - The point I was making was in to reference to  edhopper   Jul-03-11 10:13 AM   #164 
                                            - So why don't you ask Peacetrain whether she believes  okasha   Jul-03-11 11:55 AM   #168 
                                            - I am not sure where you are coming from  edhopper   Jul-03-11 12:02 PM   #169 
                                            - You're attempting to relate things that aren't related.  okasha   Jul-03-11 12:39 PM   #170 
                                            - But to be straight  edhopper   Jul-03-11 12:50 PM   #171 
                                            - If you're referring to the Bible,  okasha   Jul-03-11 12:59 PM   #172 
                                            - But there is nothing to convince one  skepticscott   Jul-03-11 01:16 PM   #173 
                                            - Excellent explanation of what the Bible is and the diversity of the  Leontius   Jul-03-11 02:21 PM   #174 
                                            - I see several such themes.  okasha   Jul-03-11 03:33 PM   #175 
                                            - Was "love thy neighbor"  skepticscott   Jul-03-11 06:24 PM   #176 
                                            - Well, scott, first you want to prove that the slaughter took place.  okasha   Jul-03-11 06:50 PM   #177 
                                            - Sheesh, could your argument be any lamer?  skepticscott   Jul-03-11 08:46 PM   #178 
                                            - Actually, there are several issues here.  okasha   Jul-03-11 09:06 PM   #179 
                                            - As scott pointed out  edhopper   Jul-04-11 08:52 AM   #180 
                                            - Wrong.  okasha   Jul-04-11 09:48 AM   #181 
                                            - What we don't understand  edhopper   Jul-04-11 10:39 AM   #182 
                                            - For what has got to be the dozenth time:  okasha   Jul-04-11 12:07 PM   #184 
                                            - What do you believe as a pagan?  edhopper   Jul-04-11 01:23 PM   #186 
                                            - I'm a panentheist.  okasha   Jul-04-11 03:16 PM   #191 
                                            - The point, since you seem to need to have it explained to you  skepticscott   Jul-04-11 11:43 AM   #183 
                                            - Are you asserting none of it is true  edhopper   Jul-03-11 10:15 AM   #165 
                                            - No. That was your assertion.  okasha   Jul-03-11 10:47 AM   #166 
                                            - I suggest you actually read the book.  okasha   Jul-04-11 12:10 PM   #185 
                                            - You mean the Bible?  edhopper   Jul-04-11 01:45 PM   #187 
                                            - Or do you mean Crossan  edhopper   Jul-04-11 02:55 PM   #188 
                                            - I do suggest Crossan.  okasha   Jul-04-11 03:04 PM   #190 
                                            - I apologize, edhopper.  okasha   Jul-04-11 03:00 PM   #189 
                                            - Okay  edhopper   Jul-04-11 05:05 PM   #192 
                                            - Simple rule:  okasha   Jul-04-11 05:48 PM   #193 
                                            - delete for thread glitch  Peacetrain   Jun-30-11 12:48 PM   #65 
                                            - delete for thread glitch  Peacetrain   Jun-30-11 12:49 PM   #66 
                             - Where do you get that Hitler was saving Christianity?  Leontius   Jun-30-11 11:37 AM   #60 
                                - Mein Kampf.  trotsky   Jun-30-11 12:32 PM   #63 
                                   - Then you must also accept this as true, right, Hitler said it.  Leontius   Jun-30-11 02:22 PM   #71 
                                      - "Not an exact quote but I believe quite close..."  trotsky   Jun-30-11 07:26 PM   #89 
                                         - It is rather a long speech and I have no time to type the whole thing  Leontius   Jun-30-11 09:20 PM   #96 
                                            - Ah yes, the classic dodge.  trotsky   Jun-30-11 09:46 PM   #99 
                                               - Backed up my statement with the name and date of speech  Leontius   Jun-30-11 11:02 PM   #100 
                                               - Are all Christians as pleasant and accommodating as you?  trotsky   Jul-01-11 06:15 AM   #102 
                                               - I am quite pleasant when I'm not automatically accused of lying,  Leontius   Jul-01-11 07:48 AM   #106 
                                               - Didn't accuse you of lying.  trotsky   Jul-01-11 07:50 AM   #107 
                                               - I will, thanks, but one simple question, why the  Leontius   Jul-01-11 08:12 AM   #109 
                                               - Because it *is* a classic dodge.  trotsky   Jul-01-11 08:18 AM   #111 
                                               - Okay got you, bottle fed  Leontius   Jul-01-11 08:24 AM   #112 
                             - "Hitler killing millions of people is 180% opposite of my religious stance"  ZombieHorde   Jun-30-11 12:58 PM   #68 
                                - Good read..  Peacetrain   Jun-30-11 01:42 PM   #70 
                                   - My intrepration of Christian scripture is significantly closer to yours than Hitler's.  ZombieHorde   Jun-30-11 03:21 PM   #76 
                                      - I am following your line of thought  Peacetrain   Jun-30-11 03:28 PM   #78 
                                      - Most interpretations I am aware of believe love thy neighbor refers to humans only.  ZombieHorde   Jun-30-11 06:28 PM   #87 
                                      - We do have some hints.  okasha   Jun-30-11 05:13 PM   #83 
                                         - Clearly your third party undocumented rumors trump everything else.  trotsky   Jun-30-11 07:31 PM   #91 
                                         - President Obama has not gone to church very often since he became our executive.  ZombieHorde   Jun-30-11 08:23 PM   #92 
                                            - Of course, not attending church isn't evidence a person doesn't believe in God.  okasha   Jun-30-11 09:21 PM   #97 
                                               - Anyone who uses birth control wouldn't be considered a "good" or "devout" Catholic either.  trotsky   Jul-01-11 09:36 AM   #124 
                                               - I agree Hitler was not an ideal Catholic. nt  ZombieHorde   Jul-01-11 12:26 PM   #128 
                    - Will you directly state the point? nt  ZombieHorde   Jun-29-11 10:03 PM   #44 
                       - See post 46  Peacetrain   Jun-30-11 08:54 AM   #47 
                          - I completely understand not wanting to have the same conversation with two different posters,  ZombieHorde   Jun-30-11 12:25 PM   #61 
                             - Sounds great.. look forward to it  Peacetrain   Jun-30-11 12:53 PM   #67 
                                - I made the following reply...  ZombieHorde   Jun-30-11 01:03 PM   #69 
  - Nowadays, it's flown into the structure of government.  damntexdem   Jun-29-11 04:10 PM   #8 
  - The first requisite for the happiness of the people is the abolition of religion nt  humblebum   Jun-29-11 04:18 PM   #9 
  - Ahh...but there you have it.. the state became the tyrant  Peacetrain   Jun-29-11 04:24 PM   #12 
  - So are you saying that atheism is not an element of Marxism? NT  humblebum   Jun-29-11 04:30 PM   #14 
  - Nope not at all..but the origins of the socialistic state should have been  Peacetrain   Jun-29-11 04:34 PM   #15 
     - Agree.  humblebum   Jun-29-11 04:38 PM   #17 
  - Indeed.  LeftishBrit   Jul-03-11 11:54 AM   #167 
  - If You Are Going You Quote Marx, Mr. Bum, Quote Marx....  The Magistrate   Jun-29-11 04:28 PM   #13 
     - So am I supposed to be impressed with your ability to copy and paste?  humblebum   Jun-29-11 04:35 PM   #16 
        - You, Sir, Are Supposed To and Expected To Whine, As You Have Done  The Magistrate   Jun-29-11 04:44 PM   #18 
           - It is hardly necessary to recite the "whole body of Marxist thought"  humblebum   Jun-29-11 05:14 PM   #22 
              - When You say That Quote is Its essence, Sir, It Certainly is Necessary To Show Knowledge Of It All  The Magistrate   Jun-29-11 05:19 PM   #23 
                 - I never said "That Quote is Its essence", but that particular quote  humblebum   Jun-29-11 05:23 PM   #24 
                    - Not So, Sir: You Maintain Communism Is All About Atheism, and Brandish that As Proof  The Magistrate   Jun-29-11 05:25 PM   #25 
                       - I also never said nor suggested "Communism Is All About Atheism."  humblebum   Jun-29-11 05:32 PM   #26 
                          - There You Go Again, Sir, Contradicting Your Opener In The Body Of the Comment  The Magistrate   Jun-29-11 05:43 PM   #27 
                             - I have never even suggested that communism was all about atheism  humblebum   Jun-29-11 05:53 PM   #28 
                                - This Is Too Sad To Continue With, Fella, On Such a Sunny Day With a Grand-Daughter On My Lap  The Magistrate   Jun-29-11 05:57 PM   #29 
                                - Enjoy your grandchildren.  humblebum   Jun-29-11 06:10 PM   #32 
                                - It is you who have ludicrously attempted to attribute  skepticscott   Jun-29-11 06:09 PM   #31 
                                   - And where did i ever do that? nt  humblebum   Jun-29-11 06:12 PM   #33 
                                      - Here, among many other places...  skepticscott   Jun-29-11 06:34 PM   #34 
                                      - A true statement. They were atheists and atheist dictators.  humblebum   Jun-29-11 06:58 PM   #36 
                                         - Not surprised to see you continue your  skepticscott   Jun-29-11 08:19 PM   #39 
                                            - History is what it is. Sorry if that bothers you. nt  humblebum   Jun-30-11 02:50 AM   #45 
                                            - And they weren't all poker players or dictators with brown hair,  humblebum   Jun-30-11 03:23 PM   #77 
                                               - Oh, please, show us the documentation  skepticscott   Jun-30-11 04:51 PM   #82 
                                               - There you go again purposely misquoting me. Where did I  humblebum   Jun-30-11 05:32 PM   #84 
                                               - You said that 130 million people  skepticscott   Jun-30-11 06:00 PM   #85 
                                               - Those sources do indeed enumerate the incidents that I have  humblebum   Jun-30-11 06:15 PM   #86 
                                               - Since You Continue This, Sir, The Fraud You Engage In Should Be Laid Out Clearly For The Audience  The Magistrate   Jul-01-11 01:55 PM   #129 
                                                  - Your are making some outrageous assumptions about what you  humblebum   Jul-01-11 02:19 PM   #132 
                                                  - You Have Confronted Me With Nothing But Very Poor Efforts At Propaganda, Sir  The Magistrate   Jul-01-11 03:35 PM   #133 
                                                  - There is no question that you are in denial.  humblebum   Jul-01-11 04:07 PM   #134 
                                                  - You Do Not Even Present A Point With That, Sir, Let Alone Sustain It  The Magistrate   Jul-01-11 04:15 PM   #135 
                                                  - You keep trying to tell me what I think and what I am trying to rebutt,  humblebum   Jul-01-11 04:34 PM   #137 
                                                  - If You Find Accurate Description Uncomfortable, Sir, There is Always The Option Of Change....  The Magistrate   Jul-01-11 04:38 PM   #138 
                                                  - You seem to be the one to "Find Accurate Description Uncomfortable."  humblebum   Jul-01-11 05:05 PM   #140 
                                                  - This, Sir, is Below Even Your Own Accustomed Level, Poor As It Is  The Magistrate   Jul-01-11 05:13 PM   #142 
                                                  - Your blizzard of phony accusations, sir, has been nothing more  humblebum   Jul-01-11 05:38 PM   #144 
                                      - !  laconicsax   Jun-29-11 06:37 PM   #35 
  - Important warning; thanks!  LeftishBrit   Jun-29-11 05:06 PM   #21 
  - Is it the exception or the rule in history  skepticscott   Jun-29-11 06:07 PM   #30 
  - How is our current time anything particularly different or special ?  dimbear   Jun-29-11 08:24 PM   #40 
  - Now this sounds interesting...  onager   Jun-29-11 09:39 PM   #43 
  - Thanks for posting Peacetrain  edhopper   Jun-30-11 07:01 PM   #88 
  - ....  Peacetrain   Jul-01-11 10:33 AM   #127 
  - I guess I thought religion existed for political gain.  Deep13   Jul-01-11 09:38 AM   #125 
     - Which came first the chicken or the egg? Good question  Peacetrain   Jul-01-11 10:31 AM   #126 

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