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Reply #174: No, but you can use your magical Google powers... [View All]

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onager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-11 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #135
174. No, but you can use your magical Google powers...
To search for "Myth of the Green Jewel," which is another name for the Sneferu story. Like most good myths, there are different versions. I heard some from Actual Egyptians when I lived there.

BTW, two things are guaranteed to piss off an Actual Egyptian, especially if they are grad students in Egyptian history or archeology - saying that aliens built the Giza Pyramids, or saying that Hebrew slaves worked on the same construction project. Americans do that all the time. One of my Egyptian friends called the latter "the gospel according to Cecil B. DeMille."

Using 14 computer models, they found that 63mph winds, lasting for 12 hours...

Oh please. This is nothing but the tired old believer's game of trying to have the cake and eat it too. "It was a miracle and we don't need science to prove it. But by the way, here's a scientific experiment that proves it."

Or it would prove it, as soon as we find someplace where the wind blows at 63 mph for 12 hours. Which I think would not only remove some water, but also any wandering nomads, their livestock and just about anything else not firmly nailed down.

I've lived in two places in the Middle East with bizarre and freakish weather conditions: Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, which is between the Red Sea and the desert. And Alexandria, Egypt, between the Mediterranean, a huge freshwater lake and the desert. But I've never heard of any winds like those.
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  -Do observers realize that the story of Moses is BS edhopper  Apr-18-11 03:50 PM   #0 
  - of course they know that. they also know that passover is the time of year  notadmblnd   Apr-18-11 03:57 PM   #1 
  - I think he is mainly  edhopper   Apr-18-11 04:04 PM   #7 
     - It isn't quite that simple.  liberalSEAL   Apr-21-11 05:40 PM   #162 
  - Faith is a beautiful thing...  Ozymanithrax   Apr-18-11 03:57 PM   #2 
  - Hell, there's video proof of Moses  Ezlivin   Apr-18-11 03:58 PM   #3 
  - Haha, remind me of where that's from again? I'm having a brain fart for some reason  no limit   Apr-18-11 03:59 PM   #5 
     - mel brooks: History of the World, Part I.  provis99   Apr-18-11 04:01 PM   #6 
        - How about Soupy Sales as Moses...  onager   Apr-19-11 12:30 AM   #55 
        - Or Carlin's Two Commandments  pokerfan   Apr-19-11 03:13 PM   #78 
  - Well it depends on the christian  no limit   Apr-18-11 03:58 PM   #4 
  - Interesting that you focus on Christianity. It's Jews who are commemorating  Critters2   Apr-18-11 07:12 PM   #29 
  - Do christians not believe in Moses?  no limit   Apr-19-11 09:10 AM   #68 
  - Christians don't celebrate Passover  WolverineDG   Apr-18-11 11:02 PM   #52 
  - Most will Thursday evening (some do it weekly)  OKIsItJustMe   Apr-19-11 03:26 PM   #80 
     - Um, Communion is not "Passover"  WolverineDG   Apr-19-11 05:04 PM   #81 
        - A number of churches explicitly have (shortened) Seders on Maundy Thursday  OKIsItJustMe   Apr-19-11 05:28 PM   #82 
        - I know you are trying to make them the same thing  WolverineDG   Apr-19-11 08:21 PM   #85 
           - I'm not saying theyre exactly the same  OKIsItJustMe   Apr-20-11 09:07 AM   #96 
              - Which "many" do you refer to?  WolverineDG   Apr-20-11 11:24 AM   #104 
                 - Using the phrase fundie nutjobs implies you realize there are Christians who are not aware  OKIsItJustMe   Apr-20-11 12:42 PM   #109 
                    - But you assert that all Christians are unaware  WolverineDG   Apr-20-11 02:42 PM   #115 
                       - I did?  OKIsItJustMe   Apr-20-11 04:58 PM   #123 
        - "Communion & Passover are two very distinct & different religious rituals."  KaoriMitsubishi   Apr-21-11 12:46 AM   #141 
           - +1  laconicsax   Apr-21-11 01:07 AM   #142 
  - I think the OP  Dorian Gray   Apr-20-11 06:50 AM   #91 
  - Well, we need to differentiate between  OKIsItJustMe   Apr-18-11 04:05 PM   #8 
  - But it is a beautiful story of emancipation plus  Warren Stupidity   Apr-18-11 04:11 PM   #9 
  - A beautiful story of awesome revenge on the many for the actions of one.  dimbear   Apr-18-11 07:04 PM   #28 
     - It is very common for lives to be lost in struggles against oppressive systems: the beneficiaries  struggle4progress   Apr-18-11 07:53 PM   #34 
        - Another epic struggle against oppression is recorded in "The Wizard of Oz."  dimbear   Apr-18-11 09:55 PM   #49 
        - Well, let's get back together 2500 years from now and see whether the story of Dorothy,  struggle4progress   Apr-19-11 12:31 AM   #56 
           - I wish I was immortal, because I would SO take that bet.  darkstar3   Apr-19-11 12:34 AM   #59 
              - I'm in for 50 shekels.  dimbear   Apr-19-11 07:12 PM   #83 
        - Actually we know quite a lot about egyptian history.  Warren Stupidity   Apr-19-11 06:48 AM   #63 
           - I didn't suggest that our knowledge of Egyptian history is entirely lacking: I said  struggle4progress   Apr-19-11 03:04 PM   #77 
           - A convenient fact that some seem to ignore is the fact that  WolverineDG   Apr-19-11 08:23 PM   #86 
              - Ah of course that must be the explanation.  Warren Stupidity   Apr-20-11 07:30 AM   #93 
                 - There's a lot that went on in ancient Egypt that we still don't know  WolverineDG   Apr-20-11 11:21 AM   #103 
                    - "everything"?  Warren Stupidity   Apr-20-11 11:50 AM   #106 
                       - You speak as though you know for a fact there are records in extant  WolverineDG   Apr-20-11 02:39 PM   #114 
           - The Dead Sea Scrolls mentions Moses father  hartandsoul   Apr-21-11 10:37 PM   #168 
              - Holy slam dunk, Batman!  laconicsax   Apr-21-11 10:50 PM   #169 
                 - You're just like the person who started this thread  hartandsoul   Apr-22-11 07:14 AM   #176 
                    - Yes. An opinion that is supported by fact.  laconicsax   Apr-22-11 04:52 PM   #182 
                       - Quote some sources for your statements  hartandsoul   Apr-22-11 06:50 PM   #183 
                          - You might want to think about what you are considering as evidence.  laconicsax   Apr-22-11 07:04 PM   #184 
                             - I just wonder why you are trying so hard  hartandsoul   Apr-22-11 07:19 PM   #186 
                                - You're citing the Bible to prove the Bible.  laconicsax   Apr-22-11 10:58 PM   #189 
                                   - The grounds for your argument is  hartandsoul   Apr-22-11 11:10 PM   #190 
                                      - If you say so.  laconicsax   Apr-22-11 11:28 PM   #193 
  - I'm content to let people belive what they wish to believe... As LONG  hlthe2b   Apr-18-11 04:20 PM   #10 
  - Why do you care  Gman   Apr-18-11 04:30 PM   #11 
  - You don't care what people believe? Does that apply to republicans?  no limit   Apr-18-11 04:51 PM   #12 
  - I care very much.  LAGC   Apr-18-11 04:53 PM   #13 
  - Whenever I see a thread like this I really have to shake my head.  humblebum   Apr-18-11 04:58 PM   #14 
  - By your own admission...  LAGC   Apr-18-11 05:00 PM   #15 
  - That certain ideas did not originate with Judaism and Christianity is not new.  TexasProgresive   Apr-18-11 05:17 PM   #18 
  - What is originality?  houstonintc   Apr-18-11 05:21 PM   #19 
  - Judaism and Chrisitanity are not merely copied  OKIsItJustMe   Apr-18-11 05:23 PM   #20 
  - Nope.avi  sudopod   Apr-18-11 07:21 PM   #30 
     - Would you care to elaborate?  OKIsItJustMe   Apr-19-11 08:49 AM   #67 
        - Christianity did not invent the Golden Rule.  sudopod   Apr-19-11 10:14 AM   #69 
           - I also referenced the Wikipedia article on The Golden Rule  OKIsItJustMe   Apr-19-11 11:34 AM   #70 
              - Well, just reaching for the low hanging fruit in the wiki article:  sudopod   Apr-19-11 12:51 PM   #72 
                 - Right, what I said was that the Silver Rule is relatively common in antiquity  OKIsItJustMe   Apr-19-11 01:38 PM   #73 
                    - It seems like there's a sort of evolution from one age to the next.  sudopod   Apr-19-11 01:46 PM   #74 
                       - But each remains a distinct religion unto itself  OKIsItJustMe   Apr-19-11 02:00 PM   #75 
                          - Sure enough. The same can be said for species of bacteria,  sudopod   Apr-19-11 02:03 PM   #76 
  - Where you got that from anything I've said, I have no idea.  humblebum   Apr-18-11 06:12 PM   #23 
  - And you're simply making a subjective assumption of your own.  laconicsax   Apr-18-11 05:09 PM   #16 
  - That's easy. The bible. It said it (according to some interpretations), so it must be true.  no limit   Apr-18-11 10:15 PM   #51 
     - Shit, I forgot about that.  laconicsax   Apr-19-11 12:32 AM   #57 
  - hmmm  edhopper   Apr-18-11 05:13 PM   #17 
  - The difference between my opinion and yours is  humblebum   Apr-18-11 06:32 PM   #26 
  - Of course it is BS, that does not mean  nadinbrzezinski   Apr-20-11 11:31 AM   #105 
  - Can you prove the Moses story is BS? nt  jody   Apr-18-11 05:35 PM   #21 
  - Yes  edhopper   Apr-18-11 05:47 PM   #22 
  - "Or rather I can show" is not proof. It's BS. nt  jody   Apr-18-11 06:55 PM   #27 
  - Serious historians agree  nadinbrzezinski   Apr-20-11 12:05 PM   #107 
  - Perhaps you could provide a link regarding this connection between the exodos narrative and  struggle4progress   Apr-18-11 08:00 PM   #36 
  - One detail has a Mesopotamian antecedent - found in a reed basket as a baby  muriel_volestrangler   Apr-18-11 08:48 PM   #45 
     - That's interesting. Thanks.  struggle4progress   Apr-18-11 09:05 PM   #47 
  - You have no proof of anything, do you?  kwassa   Apr-19-11 09:18 PM   #88 
     - Poor kwassa, upset once again because someone DARED question a religious myth.  trotsky   Apr-20-11 06:14 AM   #90 
     - No. The OP claims proof that he doesn't have.  kwassa   Apr-20-11 06:12 PM   #127 
        - Then why did you whine about it?  trotsky   Apr-20-11 07:25 PM   #131 
        - So, you duck the answer, too!  kwassa   Apr-20-11 10:53 PM   #137 
           - Answer what?  trotsky   Apr-21-11 06:23 AM   #146 
        - The OP claims  edhopper   Apr-21-11 07:19 AM   #147 
     - Jesus might not have existed  edhopper   Apr-20-11 07:37 AM   #94 
  - Ooh, ooh, I can, pick me  muriel_volestrangler   Apr-18-11 07:26 PM   #31 
  - Those are red herrings. OP said "Moses did not exist" and "Jews were not slaves". Please prove those  jody   Apr-18-11 07:39 PM   #33 
     - Moses is a laughably unrealistic character, obviously a myth  muriel_volestrangler   Apr-18-11 07:55 PM   #35 
        - I'll take that as "not able to prove". nt  jody   Apr-18-11 08:04 PM   #37 
        - How do you prove a negative?  darkstar3   Apr-18-11 08:14 PM   #38 
           - Beats me! nt  jody   Apr-18-11 08:17 PM   #39 
              - Then why are you requiring that it be done?  darkstar3   Apr-18-11 08:21 PM   #40 
                 - Read the OP. nt  jody   Apr-18-11 08:23 PM   #41 
                 - I did.  darkstar3   Apr-18-11 08:44 PM   #44 
                    - The OP said he has proof. He has no proof.  kwassa   Apr-20-11 06:15 PM   #128 
                       - Read it again.  darkstar3   Apr-20-11 08:32 PM   #132 
                          - I did. Now what? He still has provided no proof  kwassa   Apr-20-11 10:59 PM   #138 
                             - Good ol' Kwassa...demanding that someone prove a negative.  laconicsax   Apr-20-11 11:38 PM   #139 
                             - Read #44 again.  darkstar3   Apr-20-11 11:38 PM   #140 
                 - jody is a fundamentalist, I guess  muriel_volestrangler   Apr-18-11 08:39 PM   #43 
                    - You can't prove they DIDN'T live to be 900!  trotsky   Apr-20-11 08:04 AM   #95 
                       - I know  muriel_volestrangler   Apr-20-11 02:14 PM   #110 
        - You can certainly suggest that Moses was a myth, but  humblebum   Apr-20-11 10:34 AM   #98 
           - No-one claims the pyramids were built by Hebrew slaves, so that's a red herring  muriel_volestrangler   Apr-20-11 02:30 PM   #111 
           - Where did I say Hebrew slaves built the pyramids? All I am saying  humblebum   Apr-20-11 03:31 PM   #117 
              - Different period (nt)  muriel_volestrangler   Apr-20-11 04:01 PM   #120 
                 - I am referring to ancient Egypt , in general. 3000 plus years ago. nt  humblebum   Apr-20-11 04:37 PM   #121 
                    - Aren't both "ancient" and "Egypt" subjective?  laconicsax   Apr-20-11 05:04 PM   #124 
                       - That's rather subjective don't you think? nt  humblebum   Apr-20-11 05:18 PM   #125 
                          - .  laconicsax   Apr-20-11 05:21 PM   #126 
           - Unicorns obviously don't exist.  edhopper   Apr-20-11 02:33 PM   #112 
              - Oh i get the idea alright. Ed says it didn't happen, therefore it didn't.  humblebum   Apr-20-11 03:34 PM   #118 
                 - Wait, so unicorns actually exist? And fairies too? Cool! Where can I find them? -nt  Commie Pinko Dirtbag   Apr-23-11 08:56 PM   #206 
                    - I can't say for certain, but I think they were purged by STALIN!  laconicsax   Apr-23-11 09:28 PM   #207 
  - Can you prove the Mohammed story is BS?  trotsky   Apr-19-11 06:16 AM   #62 
     - How do you know I'm not? nt  jody   Apr-19-11 06:49 AM   #64 
        - Previous posting history. n/t  trotsky   Apr-19-11 07:05 AM   #65 
           - Perhaps I became one recently. Does one's religious or irreligious beliefs make any difference to  jody   Apr-19-11 03:16 PM   #79 
              - It does when those religious beliefs start making reality claims they can't back up.  trotsky   Apr-19-11 07:35 PM   #84 
                 - An egg and sperm are alive when they fuse to produce a new organism.  jody   Apr-19-11 09:08 PM   #87 
                    - You have not successfully argued the claim.  trotsky   Apr-20-11 06:07 AM   #89 
                       - Equally unable to be backed up are atheistic claims that a god  humblebum   Apr-20-11 10:21 AM   #97 
                       - Atheists don't need to prove that a god was not needed.  trotsky   Apr-20-11 10:44 AM   #99 
                          - If you make a definite statement such as that- meaning that you KNOW  humblebum   Apr-20-11 10:50 AM   #100 
                             - So your trademark strawman atheist is guilty as charged.  trotsky   Apr-20-11 11:11 AM   #102 
                                - That old strawman default position of yours comes in handy sometimes  humblebum   Apr-20-11 03:26 PM   #116 
                                   - ...  trotsky   Apr-20-11 07:23 PM   #129 
                       - Success is debatable. Scientist routinely say gametes die meaning they once were alive. If they are  jody   Apr-20-11 04:51 PM   #122 
                          - You have still not successfully argued the claim.  trotsky   Apr-20-11 07:24 PM   #130 
                             - ROFLMAO Have a blissful day! Goodbye n/t  jody   Apr-20-11 08:39 PM   #133 
                                - I understand why you gave up.  trotsky   Apr-20-11 08:49 PM   #134 
  - The Egyptian New Kingdom controlled Canaan for a time, so that's the origin of the story, IMO.  Odin2005   Apr-18-11 06:22 PM   #24 
  - That's interesting  edhopper   Apr-18-11 06:30 PM   #25 
     - I find the late Bronze Age Near East quite fascinating  Odin2005   Apr-18-11 11:29 PM   #54 
  - Being Christian, I cannot speak for my Jewish sisters and brothers, but this story seems  struggle4progress   Apr-18-11 07:35 PM   #32 
  - I haven't been to a passover seder where people focused on whether the story is true or not  Meshuga   Apr-18-11 08:25 PM   #42 
  - Of course not.  darkstar3   Apr-18-11 08:54 PM   #46 
  - But my whole point is that...  Meshuga   Apr-18-11 09:53 PM   #48 
     - It's true that most people in the USA don't realize  darkstar3   Apr-18-11 10:04 PM   #50 
        - I guess I did...  Meshuga   Apr-19-11 04:51 AM   #61 
  - I like this  Dorian Gray   Apr-20-11 07:00 AM   #92 
  - Co-opted? How's about similar groups from the same area  WolverineDG   Apr-18-11 11:06 PM   #53 
  - I did not mean it that way.  edhopper   Apr-19-11 07:56 AM   #66 
     - Ever hear of the "Cradle of Civilization"  WolverineDG   Apr-19-11 12:48 PM   #71 
  - If you want to know the real history  Manifestor_of_Light   Apr-19-11 12:33 AM   #58 
  - Only one mention of "Israel" in all of ancient Egyptian history...  onager   Apr-19-11 12:47 AM   #60 
  - Thanks for pointing out the interesting Sneferu legend. I wonder if you can show  struggle4progress   Apr-20-11 09:00 PM   #135 
  - With regard to the "wind" hypothesis about the "Red Sea parting" ...  Nihil   Apr-21-11 11:06 AM   #151 
  - No, but you can use your magical Google powers...  onager   Apr-22-11 02:23 AM   #174 
     - While it might have been interesting for you to hear the Sneferu story in Egypt,  struggle4progress   Apr-22-11 01:05 PM   #179 
  - The slightness of references to Israel is due to the slightness of Israel at the time.  dimbear   Apr-20-11 09:37 PM   #136 
  - Gee, you seems so sure of must be right.  didact   Apr-20-11 11:05 AM   #101 
  - There's really no question that the ancient Egyptians held slaves and treated them in ways  struggle4progress   Apr-20-11 12:26 PM   #108 
  - I never said they did not have slaves  edhopper   Apr-20-11 02:35 PM   #113 
     - Here's Diodorus Siculus:  struggle4progress   Apr-20-11 03:54 PM   #119 
        - You forgot to mention the "suspicous sources."  onager   Apr-25-11 09:52 PM   #219 
  - Any proof?  Behind the Aegis   Apr-21-11 01:28 AM   #143 
  - I think the complete lack of non-Biblical evidence speaks volumes to that end.  laconicsax   Apr-21-11 04:22 AM   #144 
  - That's not evidence.  Behind the Aegis   Apr-21-11 05:12 AM   #145 
     - Actually it is.  edhopper   Apr-21-11 07:35 AM   #148 
     - GREAT rebuttal and explanation of that Sagan quote. Well Done.  cleanhippie   Apr-21-11 09:07 AM   #150 
     - I didn't misuse it, you didn't understand it.  Behind the Aegis   Apr-21-11 12:20 PM   #154 
     - Let's have the actual quote:  laconicsax   Apr-21-11 11:11 AM   #152 
        - Try again....  Behind the Aegis   Apr-21-11 12:15 PM   #153 
           - Not  edhopper   Apr-21-11 02:00 PM   #155 
           - You can proceed any way you like, it doesn't make it factual.  Behind the Aegis   Apr-21-11 03:53 PM   #160 
           - You're mischaracterizing the argument in the OP, and missing the point.  laconicsax   Apr-21-11 02:09 PM   #157 
              - You are incorrect.  Behind the Aegis   Apr-21-11 04:07 PM   #161 
                 - Sorry, but you're mistaken.  laconicsax   Apr-21-11 05:49 PM   #163 
                    - Again, you are incorrect.  Behind the Aegis   Apr-22-11 12:57 AM   #170 
                       - 2 problems  darkstar3   Apr-22-11 01:09 AM   #171 
                       - That isn't the core issue.  Behind the Aegis   Apr-22-11 01:38 AM   #172 
                          - Yeah, check out #140 and #180. n/t  darkstar3   Apr-23-11 12:38 AM   #194 
                             - Blather and avoidance.  Behind the Aegis   Apr-23-11 02:44 AM   #199 
                                - So you have absolutely no answer to either of those points?  darkstar3   Apr-23-11 12:44 PM   #204 
                                   - There was no answer needed.  Behind the Aegis   Apr-24-11 02:54 AM   #211 
                       - No, I am correct.  laconicsax   Apr-22-11 02:16 AM   #173 
                          - Sorry, but you are still incorrect.  Behind the Aegis   Apr-22-11 02:52 AM   #175 
                          - Ugh. Get back to me when you prove that leprechauns don't exist.  laconicsax   Apr-22-11 03:01 PM   #180 
                             - Just like the religious...  Behind the Aegis   Apr-23-11 02:37 AM   #197 
                                - Uh huh. Ok. Sure.  laconicsax   Apr-23-11 09:40 PM   #208 
                                   - Try again.  Behind the Aegis   Apr-24-11 02:50 AM   #209 
                                      - What facts  edhopper   Apr-24-11 08:43 AM   #213 
                          - I am happy you are doing this laconicsax  edhopper   Apr-22-11 08:21 AM   #177 
                             - I can tell you myself what I would have said.  Behind the Aegis   Apr-22-11 11:48 AM   #178 
                             - There is ample evidence  edhopper   Apr-22-11 03:26 PM   #181 
                                - I never claimed he did. You are the one making the claim, which is why I asked for proof.  Behind the Aegis   Apr-23-11 02:42 AM   #198 
                                   - Your arguments  edhopper   Apr-23-11 08:31 AM   #201 
                                      - And yours that of a fundie Bible-thumper.  Behind the Aegis   Apr-24-11 02:53 AM   #210 
                             - I think it is more like you wish that "they" would not accept that Moses did not exist  Meshuga   Apr-24-11 07:21 AM   #212 
                                - Thanks for the reasoned answer.  edhopper   Apr-24-11 08:53 AM   #214 
                                   - Yes, this thread produced a lot of activity  Meshuga   Apr-24-11 03:44 PM   #216 
                                      - That is one  edhopper   Apr-25-11 08:16 AM   #217 
  - Tons.  Deep13   Apr-21-11 02:01 PM   #156 
     - Chapter 1 of this book seems a pretty good summary  muriel_volestrangler   Apr-21-11 08:18 PM   #164 
  - There are two options here.  Deep13   Apr-21-11 08:10 AM   #149 
  - Actually, there are many options here:  struggle4progress   Apr-21-11 02:35 PM   #158 
     - I mean for religious purposes.  Deep13   Apr-21-11 03:26 PM   #159 
  - All I know is that that the Story of Moses makes god out as  golddigger   Apr-21-11 09:10 PM   #165 
  - Let's us add a Parable on this.  golddigger   Apr-21-11 09:26 PM   #166 
  - +1  laconicsax   Apr-21-11 09:30 PM   #167 
  - God ways are higher than ours  hartandsoul   Apr-22-11 07:13 PM   #185 
     - It is the ultimate "Might Makes Right" scenario.  Mariana   Apr-22-11 08:59 PM   #187 
     - God has no one to answer to.....we do  hartandsoul   Apr-22-11 11:24 PM   #192 
        - Perhaps  MikeH   Apr-23-11 02:02 AM   #196 
        - And sometimes did it just to show off.  Mariana   Apr-23-11 03:20 AM   #200 
     - So you believe whatever is in the Bible is absolute truth  MikeH   Apr-22-11 09:30 PM   #188 
     - Yes  hartandsoul   Apr-22-11 11:20 PM   #191 
        - How nice for you  MikeH   Apr-23-11 01:32 AM   #195 
        - That's sweet. I, myself, have stayed clear of the  golddigger   Apr-23-11 11:43 AM   #203 
        - That your faith is very strong does not necessarily mean what you believe is right or true  MikeH   Apr-25-11 08:45 PM   #218 
           - As Richard Dawkins says  edhopper   Apr-26-11 08:29 AM   #221 
     - Belief in a cruel god, makes a cruel man.  golddigger   Apr-23-11 11:39 AM   #202 
  - Mrs. Brown says it best  Warpy   Apr-23-11 07:09 PM   #205 
  - Here's an article with some pretty strong evidence against the Egyptian captivity and the Exodus.  ChadwickHenryWard   Apr-24-11 11:54 AM   #215 
     - There's also Finkelstein and Silberman's "The Bible Unearthed"  laconicsax   Apr-25-11 10:28 PM   #220 

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