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Reply #7: If there was a Jesus, he was a purely Jewish problem, not a Roman one, [View All]

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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 01:22 PM
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7. If there was a Jesus, he was a purely Jewish problem, not a Roman one,
so the Romans would have no reason to write about him. Even if he was executed by crucifixion by the Romans, he would have been one in a long, anonymous, irrelevant line of common criminals executed thusly, and so wouldn't merit mention there, either.

But we do know that there was a movement of people calling themselves followers of Jesus, whom they claimed to be the Christ, and which followers were booted out of the Jewish temple and synagogues and DID become a problem for the Roman Empire and were executed and harassed soon after the date of Jesus' supposed crucifixion.

And we do have clear records outside of the Christian movement of the Romans very much taking attention of those upstart political pot-stirrers who refused to call Caesar "Lord" within a couple decades of Jesus death (supposed or real), who shared with each other, who taught about love, and who gladly sang hymns while being executed in horrible ways for refusing to deny their faith.

it's a fascinating bit of history, in that we have really no record of Jesus existing (other than writings by believers done well after the fact), and he wrote nothing himself (unlike other religious leaders we have throughout history) but yet a major movement began almost immediately AFTER his (supposed?) death, and we do have non-Christian records of that movement. And so if there was no Jesus, it's an amazing story of a movement being pulled basically out of thin air by a bunch of people who DID claim to have known Jesus, and some of whom claimed to have been related (his mother and brothers), and who were - if they had a mutual conspiracy to invent a person named Jesus - unable to pull the conspiracy off smoothly, because they sure as hell did argue a lot and fight amongst themselves, as well as they had absolutely nothing to gain by starting such a movement and had an awful lot to lose (their livelihoods, their respect, their families, and of course, their lives).
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  -Question about written history and The Bible daggahead  Jun-07-10 12:41 PM   #0 
  - good question...  lost-in-nj   Jun-07-10 12:56 PM   #1 
  - There is only the account of Josephus, the official documentarian of Rome in Judea at the time  Taverner   Jun-07-10 01:02 PM   #2 
  - You raise an interesting point....  Deep13   Jun-07-10 01:04 PM   #3 
  - It had just dawned on me the other day ...  daggahead   Jun-07-10 01:09 PM   #4 
     - Part of the problem is that the events Matthew cites ...  Deep13   Jun-07-10 01:20 PM   #6 
  - he's mentioned twice (?) in the works of Josephus  Schema Thing   Jun-07-10 01:12 PM   #5 
  - "Thought by some"?  Goblinmonger   Jun-07-10 01:23 PM   #8 
  - Josephus 37-100 c.e.  Deep13   Jun-07-10 01:23 PM   #9 
  - If there was a Jesus, he was a purely Jewish problem, not a Roman one,  Rabrrrrrr   Jun-07-10 01:22 PM   #7 
     - The events the NT describes would have been obvious to anyone.  Deep13   Jun-07-10 01:32 PM   #10 
     - That is precisely the kind of writing that tends not to survive  Lydia Leftcoast   Jun-07-10 01:51 PM   #12 
     - Only of interest to Lazarus' neighbors and family?  darkstar3   Jun-07-10 02:16 PM   #15 
     - The Romans investigating it?  Lydia Leftcoast   Jun-07-10 03:30 PM   #17 
     - Why would Rome care what a bunch of animal Jew peasants said?  Rabrrrrrr   Jun-07-10 03:42 PM   #18 
     - To both of you:  darkstar3   Jun-07-10 05:44 PM   #25 
        - C'mon, darkstar3, you know very well the answer to this.  trotsky   Jun-07-10 07:15 PM   #31 
           - I know that, and YOU know that...n/t  darkstar3   Jun-07-10 11:02 PM   #38 
     - Still, it's a lack of evidence.  Deep13   Jun-07-10 03:53 PM   #21 
     - Leaving aside theology, and considering only the historical issues about culture,  struggle4progress   Jun-07-10 03:23 PM   #16 
        - Well, I think enough people might take it seriously to at least...  Deep13   Jun-07-10 03:50 PM   #20 
           - But there are class issues here. The Romans had a colony there;  struggle4progress   Jun-07-10 04:23 PM   #23 
           - All that is true. Pretty much an "Exhibit A" in proving the evil of imperialism.  Deep13   Jun-07-10 07:23 PM   #32 
           - They didn't have newspapers, TV, magazines, or any of the other mass media that we have  Lydia Leftcoast   Jun-07-10 04:24 PM   #24 
              - That's all terribly convenient.  LAGC   Jun-07-10 05:55 PM   #27 
              - You took my next move,  darkstar3   Jun-07-10 06:02 PM   #28 
              - That's probably true. Still, THIS rumor didn't...  Deep13   Jun-07-10 07:07 PM   #29 
     - Now one can say that the martyrs outside Judea were merely deluded  Lydia Leftcoast   Jun-07-10 01:44 PM   #11 
        - Specious.  darkstar3   Jun-07-10 02:10 PM   #13 
        - And what about the "founders" of the movement?  trotsky   Jun-07-10 02:13 PM   #14 
        - What is your source for the claim  Dogtown   Jun-07-10 03:44 PM   #19 
           - No, they were persecuted for refusing to burn incense before statues of the emperor or  Lydia Leftcoast   Jun-07-10 04:22 PM   #22 
              - And where is your source for this information.  darkstar3   Jun-07-10 05:47 PM   #26 
              - A friend of mine whose specialty is late Roman history  Lydia Leftcoast   Jun-07-10 09:15 PM   #33 
                 - And are the materials that your friend uses available for us to read?  darkstar3   Jun-07-10 09:24 PM   #34 
                    - Don't know--haven't looked  Lydia Leftcoast   Jun-07-10 09:37 PM   #35 
                    - I have tried looking up your claims of early persecution before,  darkstar3   Jun-07-10 09:46 PM   #36 
                       - Do your own research if you really care--  Lydia Leftcoast   Jun-07-10 10:59 PM   #37 
                          - Which is another way of saying you didn't do your own. n/t  darkstar3   Jun-07-10 11:07 PM   #39 
                          - Had to dig for some old text books....I remember spending a good part of a semester on  54anickel   Jun-08-10 12:16 AM   #42 
                             - Finally, someone names a book.  darkstar3   Jun-08-10 12:33 AM   #43 
                                - Hmmm, didn't cover that in class. Do you happen to have a source?  54anickel   Jun-08-10 01:07 AM   #44 
                                - Sure.  darkstar3   Jun-08-10 08:25 AM   #50 
                                - What original Roman manuscripts do you imagine remain? To survive,  struggle4progress   Jun-08-10 08:13 AM   #47 
                                - Now you see my problem.  darkstar3   Jun-08-10 08:23 AM   #49 
                                - If you only countenance such history as can be documented by  struggle4progress   Jun-08-10 09:24 PM   #58 
                                   - The subject of history IS sparse,  darkstar3   Jun-08-10 09:30 PM   #59 
                                - BTW:  darkstar3   Jun-08-10 10:20 AM   #56 
                                - It seems incoherent to complain Pliny was not printed until around 1500  struggle4progress   Jun-08-10 08:20 AM   #48 
                                   - Whether printed on a press or hand-written,  darkstar3   Jun-08-10 08:27 AM   #51 
                                      - So your assertions are just as unprovable as mine  Lydia Leftcoast   Jun-08-10 09:46 AM   #53 
                                         - And what assertions would those be? n/t  darkstar3   Jun-08-10 09:48 AM   #54 
                                         - Nothing to say? I'm still waiting for an answer to my question. n/t  darkstar3   Jun-09-10 08:42 AM   #60 
                                            - Your assertion that there is no independent evidence of Jesus existing, so  Lydia Leftcoast   Jun-09-10 09:42 AM   #61 
                                               - And where did you find that assertion? Please point to a post # that even implies such. n/t  darkstar3   Jun-09-10 10:06 AM   #62 
                                                  - Everything you've written since you first appeared in this forum  Lydia Leftcoast   Jun-09-10 10:50 AM   #63 
                                                  - That is false, and a pathetic attempt at generalization.  darkstar3   Jun-09-10 11:52 AM   #64 
                    - Yes - any history book dealing with the Roman Empire of that time  Rabrrrrrr   Jun-08-10 12:00 AM   #40 
                       - Then it should be easy for you to show us a source.  darkstar3   Jun-08-10 12:13 AM   #41 
                       - Ah but we're not talking about early Christians. You're changing the subject.  trotsky   Jun-08-10 06:53 AM   #45 
              - Those goalposts are already well on the move.  trotsky   Jun-07-10 07:11 PM   #30 
              - Lighten up, Lydia.  Dogtown   Jun-08-10 07:35 AM   #46 
              - There are people on this forum who find the very idea of religion offensive,  Lydia Leftcoast   Jun-08-10 09:44 AM   #52 
                 - If you don't like what you're watching, change the channel.  darkstar3   Jun-08-10 10:12 AM   #55 
                 - "For years, I have insisted in this forum that religion is experiential, not intellectual"  trotsky   Jun-08-10 01:39 PM   #57 
                    - here's my take  AlecBGreen   Jun-11-10 01:01 PM   #66 
              - That's was never really a case of the Romans  skepticscott   Jun-10-10 05:56 PM   #65 

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