struggle4progress
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Thu Jun-03-10 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #68 |
| 71. Maybe you just didn't like your pseudo-scientific scientism being called idolatry? |
| -A Theologian Objects to the Courtier's Reply Charge against Theology |
BurtWorm |
May-28-10 01:12 PM |
#0 |
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I like this. |
patrice |
May-28-10 01:25 PM |
#1 |
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50:50 |
darkstar3 |
May-28-10 01:45 PM |
#5 |
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I like the way Steven King puts it in the Dark Tower series |
AlecBGreen |
Jun-01-10 09:14 PM |
#44 |
| -
I think the point I was making |
darkstar3 |
Jun-01-10 11:51 PM |
#49 |
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So, back when people argued over the Earth or the Sun... |
Silent3 |
May-28-10 01:47 PM |
#6 |
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The only thing "perceptible" in religion..... |
DeSwiss |
May-28-10 07:02 PM |
#13 |
| -
I look forward to your further posts |
skepticscott |
May-29-10 08:58 PM |
#19 |
| -
PZ Myers rips this guy to shreds in the link you provided. |
stopbush |
May-28-10 01:32 PM |
#2 |
| -
Mr. Reitan, Sir, is A Profoundly Silly Man |
The Magistrate |
May-28-10 01:37 PM |
#3 |
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Atheists, however, don't claim "that the empirical world exhausts what is real". |
Silent3 |
May-28-10 01:40 PM |
#4 |
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atheists would say 'the empirical world exhausts what anyone can authoritatively claim is real' |
BurtWorm |
May-28-10 02:08 PM |
#7 |
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I'm glad I followed the Pharyngula link. |
Silent3 |
May-28-10 02:33 PM |
#8 |
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It is A Very Good Read, Sir |
The Magistrate |
May-28-10 02:38 PM |
#9 |
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Makes me wonder if the universe... |
Silent3 |
May-28-10 03:02 PM |
#10 |
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I should clarify something about the Courtier's Reply. |
BurtWorm |
May-28-10 04:50 PM |
#11 |
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Here's PZ Myer's original Courtier's Reply, in case anyone is interested: |
stopbush |
May-28-10 06:20 PM |
#12 |
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I would contrast PZ's POV with that of the atheist Ernst Bloch |
struggle4progress |
May-28-10 08:22 PM |
#16 |
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What's funny here is that I don't think you see what you've done. |
darkstar3 |
May-28-10 10:53 PM |
#18 |
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Actually, what I said was: "PZ lacks a human sympathy and imagination that Ernst had, |
struggle4progress |
Jun-02-10 10:04 AM |
#56 |
| -
Why quote marks, |
darkstar3 |
Jun-02-10 10:48 AM |
#60 |
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Actually, it's that PZ Myers isn't interested in "Tooth Fairy science" |
Euromutt |
Jun-04-10 08:11 AM |
#100 |
| -
His big show of defacing communion wafers was about mocking people |
struggle4progress |
Jun-04-10 09:12 AM |
#103 |
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There you go again, claiming that people simply misunderstand you and your ilk. |
darkstar3 |
Jun-04-10 09:39 AM |
#104 |
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The wafer bit: Doesn't the church claim that the wafers literally become the body of Christ? |
BurtWorm |
Jun-04-10 11:14 AM |
#111 |
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"As far as you can tell" apparently isn't very far |
skepticscott |
Jun-04-10 12:58 PM |
#114 |
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Despite your pretense of scientific concern, your interest is only to sneer |
struggle4progress |
Jun-04-10 01:37 PM |
#116 |
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Do they have separate gluten-free wafers for gluten-intolerant worshippers? |
BurtWorm |
Jun-04-10 01:45 PM |
#117 |
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Gluten-free wafers are NOT ALLOWED. |
trotsky |
Jun-04-10 01:58 PM |
#118 |
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No, the Catholics are transubstantiatonists: but they will make |
struggle4progress |
Jun-04-10 02:06 PM |
#119 |
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"Does not appear to be"? That's just more uninformed intellectual weaseling on your part |
skepticscott |
Jun-04-10 04:38 PM |
#127 |
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I'm sure we all appreciate your Authority to speak on Catholic doctrine |
struggle4progress |
Jun-04-10 09:55 PM |
#138 |
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Very good job at ignoring every issue of importance here |
skepticscott |
Jun-04-10 10:05 PM |
#139 |
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Are you afraid civilization will collapse unless you sneer at people |
struggle4progress |
Jun-05-10 03:23 AM |
#142 |
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You're entitled to your own opinions |
skepticscott |
Jun-05-10 06:04 AM |
#143 |
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I should explain someone else's views, so you can mock them? No thank you. |
struggle4progress |
Jun-05-10 12:52 PM |
#146 |
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Lame dodge, but about what I expected from you |
skepticscott |
Jun-05-10 01:27 PM |
#147 |
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You want to rehabilitate some 17th polemic, largely forgotten by everyone |
struggle4progress |
Jun-05-10 07:09 PM |
#148 |
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Duck, dodge, divert |
skepticscott |
Jun-05-10 07:27 PM |
#149 |
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Your efforts to be a pain-in-the-ass seem rather amateurish to me. In the decades |
struggle4progress |
Jun-05-10 08:02 PM |
#150 |
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Your assholish diversion does nothing to help your case. |
darkstar3 |
Jun-05-10 11:53 PM |
#151 |
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Now, now. |
trotsky |
Jun-07-10 06:48 AM |
#152 |
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So when your exit strategy is an obvious failure, |
darkstar3 |
Jun-07-10 06:00 PM |
#154 |
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You're not even trying to understand, are you? |
Euromutt |
Jun-04-10 06:20 PM |
#132 |
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That is bloody brilliant! |
PassingFair |
Jun-04-10 09:34 PM |
#137 |
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When theologians cannot refute the logic of the argument (which is almost ALWAYS)..... |
DeSwiss |
May-28-10 07:23 PM |
#15 |
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Can Atheists Simply Ignore Theology? |
DeSwiss |
May-28-10 07:06 PM |
#14 |
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Any legitimate and useful |
skepticscott |
May-28-10 10:19 PM |
#17 |
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Theology = making shit up. |
Odin2005 |
May-30-10 07:39 PM |
#20 |
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Exactly. |
DeSwiss |
May-30-10 08:05 PM |
#21 |
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That is perhaps the laziest and most uninteresting of responses |
struggle4progress |
May-31-10 02:02 AM |
#22 |
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Put it this way |
skepticscott |
May-31-10 04:59 PM |
#23 |
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Marxist philosopher discovers Jesus for atheists |
struggle4progress |
May-31-10 06:17 PM |
#24 |
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When someone says |
skepticscott |
May-31-10 08:28 PM |
#25 |
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Hmm. No, there are productive questions and nonproductive questions. |
struggle4progress |
May-31-10 09:14 PM |
#26 |
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Utter ignorance and an idiotic false dichotomy |
skepticscott |
Jun-01-10 06:07 AM |
#27 |
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Myers' flaw is that he believes if you cannot measure something it does not exist. |
rug |
Jun-01-10 06:43 AM |
#28 |
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What does 'measure' mean? |
BurtWorm |
Jun-01-10 11:16 AM |
#29 |
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Measure, in the conventional scientific sense. |
rug |
Jun-01-10 04:38 PM |
#30 |
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When you can clearly explain why super or extranatural things |
darkstar3 |
Jun-01-10 05:04 PM |
#31 |
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Can you explain why human existence can only be explained naturally |
rug |
Jun-01-10 06:45 PM |
#34 |
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Why should I? |
darkstar3 |
Jun-01-10 07:17 PM |
#37 |
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You hold human existence can only be explained through natural means. Why? |
rug |
Jun-01-10 07:24 PM |
#39 |
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You're avoiding the question. |
darkstar3 |
Jun-01-10 07:29 PM |
#41 |
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Myers, and presumably you, assert that only natural explanations suffice. |
rug |
Jun-01-10 07:31 PM |
#42 |
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Myers, and I, have science to back us up. |
darkstar3 |
Jun-01-10 08:49 PM |
#43 |
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You're debating yourself. |
rug |
Jun-04-10 05:12 AM |
#93 |
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Speaking of intellectual dishonesty... |
darkstar3 |
Jun-04-10 08:36 AM |
#101 |
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This forum needs a Godwin rule for Santa Claus. |
rug |
Jun-04-10 02:27 PM |
#123 |
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Doesn't matter when the comparison is apt. |
darkstar3 |
Jun-04-10 03:13 PM |
#125 |
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The assertion, if I may speak for darkstar and PZ, is that natural explanations suffice. |
BurtWorm |
Jun-02-10 10:24 AM |
#59 |
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No, you are mistaken. |
trotsky |
Jun-02-10 12:14 PM |
#63 |
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There are natural explanations for our experience of the 'supernatural.' |
BurtWorm |
Jun-01-10 05:13 PM |
#32 |
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Perfectly said. |
darkstar3 |
Jun-01-10 05:23 PM |
#33 |
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Did you get that from an Ayn Rand symposium at MIT? |
rug |
Jun-01-10 06:56 PM |
#36 |
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I'm sorry, |
darkstar3 |
Jun-01-10 07:21 PM |
#38 |
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Call it what you like but that all that post lacked was thunder and lightning. |
rug |
Jun-01-10 07:25 PM |
#40 |
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That's an assertion, not evidence. |
rug |
Jun-01-10 06:55 PM |
#35 |
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What part of human experience do you think they would say is not coverable by a naturalistic view? |
BurtWorm |
Jun-01-10 09:17 PM |
#45 |
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"If it were true -- as conceited shrewdness, proud of not being deceived, thinks -- |
struggle4progress |
Jun-01-10 09:42 PM |
#46 |
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Kierkegaard never counted on the fMRI. n/t |
darkstar3 |
Jun-01-10 09:53 PM |
#47 |
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If you think there is good evidence that fMRI can make visible |
struggle4progress |
Jun-02-10 09:20 AM |
#52 |
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That's already visible in Christian (and Jewish and other religious/philosophic) documents. |
BurtWorm |
Jun-02-10 09:51 AM |
#55 |
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That's an appeal to emotion. |
BurtWorm |
Jun-01-10 11:34 PM |
#48 |
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The world being as-it-is, and we being as-we-are, perhaps it is always |
struggle4progress |
Jun-02-10 04:01 AM |
#50 |
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Hey look! A straw man! |
darkstar3 |
Jun-02-10 08:30 AM |
#51 |
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Your responses never suggest that you have any idea what is being said. |
struggle4progress |
Jun-02-10 09:46 AM |
#54 |
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No that's not what I meant exactly. |
BurtWorm |
Jun-02-10 10:08 AM |
#57 |
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Again I find myself standing by what I have said. |
darkstar3 |
Jun-02-10 10:59 AM |
#61 |
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We give you the courtesy of thinking you're trying to make a point... |
Silent3 |
Jun-02-10 09:20 PM |
#69 |
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Thank you for that. |
darkstar3 |
Jun-02-10 09:34 PM |
#70 |
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Claims "so-and-so is counterfactual and corresponds to no material reality" |
struggle4progress |
Jun-03-10 01:53 AM |
#72 |
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Sure sounds like a straw man to me... |
Silent3 |
Jun-03-10 07:15 AM |
#75 |
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You should perhaps first avoid assuming that it is my intent |
struggle4progress |
Jun-03-10 07:59 AM |
#77 |
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A note on your link. It gets me close but not quite there. |
Jim__ |
Jun-03-10 08:37 AM |
#78 |
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I think the better question is not whether it's possible... |
Silent3 |
Jun-03-10 10:30 AM |
#81 |
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First, you expect me to take a theological view that is not my own: |
struggle4progress |
Jun-04-10 06:30 AM |
#96 |
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Math and logic aren't so much "real" as inescapable |
Silent3 |
Jun-04-10 01:29 PM |
#115 |
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That right there is one epic post. |
trotsky |
Jun-05-10 10:26 AM |
#144 |
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'I suspect there are cases where no naturalistic and material account can be given' |
BurtWorm |
Jun-03-10 12:28 PM |
#84 |
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I think the example shows this: |
struggle4progress |
Jun-04-10 06:50 AM |
#98 |
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Why is that a cheat? |
BurtWorm |
Jun-04-10 10:15 AM |
#107 |
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It is a cheat for several reasons, but let us deal with this one: because |
struggle4progress |
Jun-04-10 11:34 AM |
#112 |
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Is math a human invention or not? |
BurtWorm |
Jun-04-10 11:48 AM |
#113 |
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IRONY ALERT: 'it is too vague and leaves to me all the hard work of guessing what you might mean.' |
BurtWorm |
Jun-05-10 10:56 AM |
#145 |
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I have to think your silence on the question is an indication of your inability to answer it. |
BurtWorm |
Jun-03-10 07:55 PM |
#85 |
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Give us a non-naturalistic account of agape. |
BurtWorm |
Jun-03-10 08:58 AM |
#80 |
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But the notion of agape, appearing (say) in a claim that one has |
struggle4progress |
Jun-04-10 06:55 AM |
#99 |
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What is that imperative based on, though? |
BurtWorm |
Jun-04-10 10:26 AM |
#108 |
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I need to 'unpack' (as they say in punditese) this sentence of yours concerning me. |
BurtWorm |
Jun-03-10 10:38 AM |
#82 |
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If there has been progress in the human world, |
BurtWorm |
Jun-02-10 09:38 AM |
#53 |
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Hmm. No, the idea that individual people can be changed |
struggle4progress |
Jun-02-10 12:02 PM |
#62 |
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When people change in the Bible, it is because their purpose to god is revealed. |
BurtWorm |
Jun-02-10 12:43 PM |
#64 |
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That's a conservative fundamentalist reading: a pre-programmed |
struggle4progress |
Jun-02-10 05:39 PM |
#67 |
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As David Byrne once wrote: 'You're talking a lot but you're not saying anything ' |
BurtWorm |
Jun-02-10 06:18 PM |
#68 |
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Maybe you just didn't like your pseudo-scientific scientism being called idolatry? |
struggle4progress |
Jun-03-10 12:34 AM |
#71 |
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No, that's not it. I didn't know that's what you were doing. |
BurtWorm |
Jun-03-10 06:11 AM |
#73 |
| -
Or maybe thinking people are tired of your... |
trotsky |
Jun-04-10 06:36 AM |
#97 |
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All this talk of noodling and word salads is making me hungry... |
BurtWorm |
Jun-04-10 11:06 AM |
#110 |
| -
Let me address a few of your assertions. |
BurtWorm |
Jun-03-10 06:32 AM |
#74 |
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Let us handle the "noodly" part, because I think your philosophy of science is bad |
struggle4progress |
Jun-03-10 07:21 AM |
#76 |
| -
Ptolomy's charts said nothing about whether the planets moved around the sun. |
BurtWorm |
Jun-03-10 08:42 AM |
#79 |
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'The chart is not the reality... ' Duh! |
BurtWorm |
Jun-03-10 11:20 AM |
#83 |
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"The chart is not the reality." Good: we finally agree on at least one point. |
struggle4progress |
Jun-04-10 04:35 AM |
#92 |
| -
Clarification, please: |
darkstar3 |
Jun-04-10 09:06 AM |
#102 |
| -
When I say 'It’s all in the genes,' I'm taking a shortcut (admittedly) |
BurtWorm |
Jun-04-10 10:09 AM |
#105 |
| -
You know I never got an answer to my question in #102. |
darkstar3 |
Jun-09-10 08:50 AM |
#155 |
| -
If you have failed after many attempts |
skepticscott |
Jun-02-10 03:26 PM |
#65 |
| -
Or perhaps many people in this forum are too lazy to do much except |
struggle4progress |
Jun-02-10 04:28 PM |
#66 |
| -
True prophets are never appreciated in their own times or hometowns. |
darkstar3 |
Jun-03-10 08:14 PM |
#86 |
| -
I have to repeat my question in case you didn't notice it. |
BurtWorm |
Jun-02-10 10:17 AM |
#58 |
| -
Will. Choice. |
rug |
Jun-03-10 08:43 PM |
#87 |
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I won't answer that until you explain how will and choice can possibly have non-natural causes. |
BurtWorm |
Jun-03-10 10:06 PM |
#88 |
| -
Ok, don't answer. |
rug |
Jun-03-10 10:12 PM |
#89 |
| -
I'll take that as an answer of sorts. |
BurtWorm |
Jun-03-10 10:21 PM |
#90 |
| -
Don't. It was not an answer. |
rug |
Jun-04-10 05:15 AM |
#95 |
| -
Can you elaborate on what you're looking for from me? |
BurtWorm |
Jun-04-10 10:13 AM |
#106 |
| -
The premise is this. |
rug |
Jun-04-10 02:25 PM |
#121 |
| -
Your original question seemed to me to imply the opposite. |
BurtWorm |
Jun-04-10 03:03 PM |
#124 |
| -
Poor rug. |
darkstar3 |
Jun-03-10 10:21 PM |
#91 |
| -
Poor darkstar. |
rug |
Jun-04-10 05:14 AM |
#94 |
| -
You seem to be very confused. (As usual.) |
trotsky |
Jun-04-10 10:53 AM |
#109 |
| -
Confusion is in the mind of the beholder. (As usual.) |
rug |
Jun-04-10 02:20 PM |
#120 |
| -
What *besides* natural processes must be invoked? |
BurtWorm |
Jun-04-10 02:26 PM |
#122 |
| -
I would like to see an answer to BurtWorm's question as well. n/t |
darkstar3 |
Jun-07-10 05:58 PM |
#153 |
| -
"Regarding God, immeasurability is ... its essential quality." That raises a conundrum |
Euromutt |
Jun-04-10 04:33 PM |
#126 |
| -
Very well said. |
BurtWorm |
Jun-04-10 04:39 PM |
#128 |
| -
Your post would make sense if the topic was magic. |
rug |
Jun-04-10 05:56 PM |
#129 |
| -
The dimness of the human intellect is probably the reason we're even talking |
BurtWorm |
Jun-04-10 06:09 PM |
#130 |
| -
I agree with your subject line |
rug |
Jun-04-10 06:11 PM |
#131 |
| -
That very much depends on your definition of "deity" |
Euromutt |
Jun-04-10 08:50 PM |
#134 |
| -
On the contrary, |
rug |
Jun-04-10 09:03 PM |
#135 |
| -
By "flawed" you mean he refuses to put the cart before the horse |
Euromutt |
Jun-04-10 10:25 PM |
#141 |
| -
An essential quality, or merely an incredibly convenient quality... |
Silent3 |
Jun-04-10 07:37 PM |
#133 |
| -
Thank you. Your elucidation has been very helpful. |
rug |
Jun-04-10 09:05 PM |
#136 |
| -
Touche; it's the invisible, intangible dragon in Carl Sagan's garage all over again |
Euromutt |
Jun-04-10 10:15 PM |
#140 |
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