BurtWorm
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Tue Jun-01-10 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #30 |
| 32. There are natural explanations for our experience of the 'supernatural.' |
|
In other words, the naturalistic view is totally adequate to cover all of human experience. The case that there's more to the universe than the natural is very poor indeed.
Which is why calling the convenience of 'god's' immeasurability essential to its quality sort of gives the whole show away. That's exactly what religion seems to be all about--that mystifying nothing no one can put their fingers on.
|
| -A Theologian Objects to the Courtier's Reply Charge against Theology |
BurtWorm |
May-28-10 01:12 PM |
#0 |
 -
I like this. |
patrice |
May-28-10 01:25 PM |
#1 |
 -
50:50 |
darkstar3 |
May-28-10 01:45 PM |
#5 |
 -
I like the way Steven King puts it in the Dark Tower series |
AlecBGreen |
Jun-01-10 09:14 PM |
#44 |
| -
I think the point I was making |
darkstar3 |
Jun-01-10 11:51 PM |
#49 |
| -
So, back when people argued over the Earth or the Sun... |
Silent3 |
May-28-10 01:47 PM |
#6 |
| -
The only thing "perceptible" in religion..... |
DeSwiss |
May-28-10 07:02 PM |
#13 |
| -
I look forward to your further posts |
skepticscott |
May-29-10 08:58 PM |
#19 |
| -
PZ Myers rips this guy to shreds in the link you provided. |
stopbush |
May-28-10 01:32 PM |
#2 |
| -
Mr. Reitan, Sir, is A Profoundly Silly Man |
The Magistrate |
May-28-10 01:37 PM |
#3 |
| -
Atheists, however, don't claim "that the empirical world exhausts what is real". |
Silent3 |
May-28-10 01:40 PM |
#4 |
| -
atheists would say 'the empirical world exhausts what anyone can authoritatively claim is real' |
BurtWorm |
May-28-10 02:08 PM |
#7 |
| -
I'm glad I followed the Pharyngula link. |
Silent3 |
May-28-10 02:33 PM |
#8 |
| -
It is A Very Good Read, Sir |
The Magistrate |
May-28-10 02:38 PM |
#9 |
| -
Makes me wonder if the universe... |
Silent3 |
May-28-10 03:02 PM |
#10 |
| -
I should clarify something about the Courtier's Reply. |
BurtWorm |
May-28-10 04:50 PM |
#11 |
| -
Here's PZ Myer's original Courtier's Reply, in case anyone is interested: |
stopbush |
May-28-10 06:20 PM |
#12 |
| -
I would contrast PZ's POV with that of the atheist Ernst Bloch |
struggle4progress |
May-28-10 08:22 PM |
#16 |
| -
What's funny here is that I don't think you see what you've done. |
darkstar3 |
May-28-10 10:53 PM |
#18 |
| -
Actually, what I said was: "PZ lacks a human sympathy and imagination that Ernst had, |
struggle4progress |
Jun-02-10 10:04 AM |
#56 |
| -
Why quote marks, |
darkstar3 |
Jun-02-10 10:48 AM |
#60 |
| -
Actually, it's that PZ Myers isn't interested in "Tooth Fairy science" |
Euromutt |
Jun-04-10 08:11 AM |
#100 |
| -
His big show of defacing communion wafers was about mocking people |
struggle4progress |
Jun-04-10 09:12 AM |
#103 |
| -
There you go again, claiming that people simply misunderstand you and your ilk. |
darkstar3 |
Jun-04-10 09:39 AM |
#104 |
| -
The wafer bit: Doesn't the church claim that the wafers literally become the body of Christ? |
BurtWorm |
Jun-04-10 11:14 AM |
#111 |
| -
"As far as you can tell" apparently isn't very far |
skepticscott |
Jun-04-10 12:58 PM |
#114 |
| -
Despite your pretense of scientific concern, your interest is only to sneer |
struggle4progress |
Jun-04-10 01:37 PM |
#116 |
| -
Do they have separate gluten-free wafers for gluten-intolerant worshippers? |
BurtWorm |
Jun-04-10 01:45 PM |
#117 |
| -
Gluten-free wafers are NOT ALLOWED. |
trotsky |
Jun-04-10 01:58 PM |
#118 |
| -
No, the Catholics are transubstantiatonists: but they will make |
struggle4progress |
Jun-04-10 02:06 PM |
#119 |
| -
"Does not appear to be"? That's just more uninformed intellectual weaseling on your part |
skepticscott |
Jun-04-10 04:38 PM |
#127 |
| -
I'm sure we all appreciate your Authority to speak on Catholic doctrine |
struggle4progress |
Jun-04-10 09:55 PM |
#138 |
| -
Very good job at ignoring every issue of importance here |
skepticscott |
Jun-04-10 10:05 PM |
#139 |
| -
Are you afraid civilization will collapse unless you sneer at people |
struggle4progress |
Jun-05-10 03:23 AM |
#142 |
| -
You're entitled to your own opinions |
skepticscott |
Jun-05-10 06:04 AM |
#143 |
| -
I should explain someone else's views, so you can mock them? No thank you. |
struggle4progress |
Jun-05-10 12:52 PM |
#146 |
| -
Lame dodge, but about what I expected from you |
skepticscott |
Jun-05-10 01:27 PM |
#147 |
| -
You want to rehabilitate some 17th polemic, largely forgotten by everyone |
struggle4progress |
Jun-05-10 07:09 PM |
#148 |
| -
Duck, dodge, divert |
skepticscott |
Jun-05-10 07:27 PM |
#149 |
| -
Your efforts to be a pain-in-the-ass seem rather amateurish to me. In the decades |
struggle4progress |
Jun-05-10 08:02 PM |
#150 |
| -
Your assholish diversion does nothing to help your case. |
darkstar3 |
Jun-05-10 11:53 PM |
#151 |
| -
Now, now. |
trotsky |
Jun-07-10 06:48 AM |
#152 |
| -
So when your exit strategy is an obvious failure, |
darkstar3 |
Jun-07-10 06:00 PM |
#154 |
| -
You're not even trying to understand, are you? |
Euromutt |
Jun-04-10 06:20 PM |
#132 |
| -
That is bloody brilliant! |
PassingFair |
Jun-04-10 09:34 PM |
#137 |
| -
When theologians cannot refute the logic of the argument (which is almost ALWAYS)..... |
DeSwiss |
May-28-10 07:23 PM |
#15 |
| -
Can Atheists Simply Ignore Theology? |
DeSwiss |
May-28-10 07:06 PM |
#14 |
| -
Any legitimate and useful |
skepticscott |
May-28-10 10:19 PM |
#17 |
| -
Theology = making shit up. |
Odin2005 |
May-30-10 07:39 PM |
#20 |
| -
Exactly. |
DeSwiss |
May-30-10 08:05 PM |
#21 |
| -
That is perhaps the laziest and most uninteresting of responses |
struggle4progress |
May-31-10 02:02 AM |
#22 |
| -
Put it this way |
skepticscott |
May-31-10 04:59 PM |
#23 |
| -
Marxist philosopher discovers Jesus for atheists |
struggle4progress |
May-31-10 06:17 PM |
#24 |
| -
When someone says |
skepticscott |
May-31-10 08:28 PM |
#25 |
| -
Hmm. No, there are productive questions and nonproductive questions. |
struggle4progress |
May-31-10 09:14 PM |
#26 |
| -
Utter ignorance and an idiotic false dichotomy |
skepticscott |
Jun-01-10 06:07 AM |
#27 |
| -
Myers' flaw is that he believes if you cannot measure something it does not exist. |
rug |
Jun-01-10 06:43 AM |
#28 |
| -
What does 'measure' mean? |
BurtWorm |
Jun-01-10 11:16 AM |
#29 |
| -
Measure, in the conventional scientific sense. |
rug |
Jun-01-10 04:38 PM |
#30 |
| -
When you can clearly explain why super or extranatural things |
darkstar3 |
Jun-01-10 05:04 PM |
#31 |
| -
Can you explain why human existence can only be explained naturally |
rug |
Jun-01-10 06:45 PM |
#34 |
| -
Why should I? |
darkstar3 |
Jun-01-10 07:17 PM |
#37 |
| -
You hold human existence can only be explained through natural means. Why? |
rug |
Jun-01-10 07:24 PM |
#39 |
| -
You're avoiding the question. |
darkstar3 |
Jun-01-10 07:29 PM |
#41 |
| -
Myers, and presumably you, assert that only natural explanations suffice. |
rug |
Jun-01-10 07:31 PM |
#42 |
| -
Myers, and I, have science to back us up. |
darkstar3 |
Jun-01-10 08:49 PM |
#43 |
| -
You're debating yourself. |
rug |
Jun-04-10 05:12 AM |
#93 |
| -
Speaking of intellectual dishonesty... |
darkstar3 |
Jun-04-10 08:36 AM |
#101 |
| -
This forum needs a Godwin rule for Santa Claus. |
rug |
Jun-04-10 02:27 PM |
#123 |
| -
Doesn't matter when the comparison is apt. |
darkstar3 |
Jun-04-10 03:13 PM |
#125 |
| -
The assertion, if I may speak for darkstar and PZ, is that natural explanations suffice. |
BurtWorm |
Jun-02-10 10:24 AM |
#59 |
| -
No, you are mistaken. |
trotsky |
Jun-02-10 12:14 PM |
#63 |
| -
There are natural explanations for our experience of the 'supernatural.' |
BurtWorm |
Jun-01-10 05:13 PM |
#32 |
| -
Perfectly said. |
darkstar3 |
Jun-01-10 05:23 PM |
#33 |
| -
Did you get that from an Ayn Rand symposium at MIT? |
rug |
Jun-01-10 06:56 PM |
#36 |
| -
I'm sorry, |
darkstar3 |
Jun-01-10 07:21 PM |
#38 |
| -
Call it what you like but that all that post lacked was thunder and lightning. |
rug |
Jun-01-10 07:25 PM |
#40 |
| -
That's an assertion, not evidence. |
rug |
Jun-01-10 06:55 PM |
#35 |
| -
What part of human experience do you think they would say is not coverable by a naturalistic view? |
BurtWorm |
Jun-01-10 09:17 PM |
#45 |
| -
"If it were true -- as conceited shrewdness, proud of not being deceived, thinks -- |
struggle4progress |
Jun-01-10 09:42 PM |
#46 |
| -
Kierkegaard never counted on the fMRI. n/t |
darkstar3 |
Jun-01-10 09:53 PM |
#47 |
| -
If you think there is good evidence that fMRI can make visible |
struggle4progress |
Jun-02-10 09:20 AM |
#52 |
| -
That's already visible in Christian (and Jewish and other religious/philosophic) documents. |
BurtWorm |
Jun-02-10 09:51 AM |
#55 |
| -
That's an appeal to emotion. |
BurtWorm |
Jun-01-10 11:34 PM |
#48 |
| -
The world being as-it-is, and we being as-we-are, perhaps it is always |
struggle4progress |
Jun-02-10 04:01 AM |
#50 |
| -
Hey look! A straw man! |
darkstar3 |
Jun-02-10 08:30 AM |
#51 |
| -
Your responses never suggest that you have any idea what is being said. |
struggle4progress |
Jun-02-10 09:46 AM |
#54 |
| -
No that's not what I meant exactly. |
BurtWorm |
Jun-02-10 10:08 AM |
#57 |
| -
Again I find myself standing by what I have said. |
darkstar3 |
Jun-02-10 10:59 AM |
#61 |
| -
We give you the courtesy of thinking you're trying to make a point... |
Silent3 |
Jun-02-10 09:20 PM |
#69 |
| -
Thank you for that. |
darkstar3 |
Jun-02-10 09:34 PM |
#70 |
| -
Claims "so-and-so is counterfactual and corresponds to no material reality" |
struggle4progress |
Jun-03-10 01:53 AM |
#72 |
| -
Sure sounds like a straw man to me... |
Silent3 |
Jun-03-10 07:15 AM |
#75 |
| -
You should perhaps first avoid assuming that it is my intent |
struggle4progress |
Jun-03-10 07:59 AM |
#77 |
| -
A note on your link. It gets me close but not quite there. |
Jim__ |
Jun-03-10 08:37 AM |
#78 |
| -
I think the better question is not whether it's possible... |
Silent3 |
Jun-03-10 10:30 AM |
#81 |
| -
First, you expect me to take a theological view that is not my own: |
struggle4progress |
Jun-04-10 06:30 AM |
#96 |
| -
Math and logic aren't so much "real" as inescapable |
Silent3 |
Jun-04-10 01:29 PM |
#115 |
| -
That right there is one epic post. |
trotsky |
Jun-05-10 10:26 AM |
#144 |
| -
'I suspect there are cases where no naturalistic and material account can be given' |
BurtWorm |
Jun-03-10 12:28 PM |
#84 |
| -
I think the example shows this: |
struggle4progress |
Jun-04-10 06:50 AM |
#98 |
| -
Why is that a cheat? |
BurtWorm |
Jun-04-10 10:15 AM |
#107 |
| -
It is a cheat for several reasons, but let us deal with this one: because |
struggle4progress |
Jun-04-10 11:34 AM |
#112 |
| -
Is math a human invention or not? |
BurtWorm |
Jun-04-10 11:48 AM |
#113 |
| -
IRONY ALERT: 'it is too vague and leaves to me all the hard work of guessing what you might mean.' |
BurtWorm |
Jun-05-10 10:56 AM |
#145 |
| -
I have to think your silence on the question is an indication of your inability to answer it. |
BurtWorm |
Jun-03-10 07:55 PM |
#85 |
| -
Give us a non-naturalistic account of agape. |
BurtWorm |
Jun-03-10 08:58 AM |
#80 |
| -
But the notion of agape, appearing (say) in a claim that one has |
struggle4progress |
Jun-04-10 06:55 AM |
#99 |
| -
What is that imperative based on, though? |
BurtWorm |
Jun-04-10 10:26 AM |
#108 |
| -
I need to 'unpack' (as they say in punditese) this sentence of yours concerning me. |
BurtWorm |
Jun-03-10 10:38 AM |
#82 |
| -
If there has been progress in the human world, |
BurtWorm |
Jun-02-10 09:38 AM |
#53 |
| -
Hmm. No, the idea that individual people can be changed |
struggle4progress |
Jun-02-10 12:02 PM |
#62 |
| -
When people change in the Bible, it is because their purpose to god is revealed. |
BurtWorm |
Jun-02-10 12:43 PM |
#64 |
| -
That's a conservative fundamentalist reading: a pre-programmed |
struggle4progress |
Jun-02-10 05:39 PM |
#67 |
| -
As David Byrne once wrote: 'You're talking a lot but you're not saying anything ' |
BurtWorm |
Jun-02-10 06:18 PM |
#68 |
| -
Maybe you just didn't like your pseudo-scientific scientism being called idolatry? |
struggle4progress |
Jun-03-10 12:34 AM |
#71 |
| -
No, that's not it. I didn't know that's what you were doing. |
BurtWorm |
Jun-03-10 06:11 AM |
#73 |
| -
Or maybe thinking people are tired of your... |
trotsky |
Jun-04-10 06:36 AM |
#97 |
| -
All this talk of noodling and word salads is making me hungry... |
BurtWorm |
Jun-04-10 11:06 AM |
#110 |
| -
Let me address a few of your assertions. |
BurtWorm |
Jun-03-10 06:32 AM |
#74 |
| -
Let us handle the "noodly" part, because I think your philosophy of science is bad |
struggle4progress |
Jun-03-10 07:21 AM |
#76 |
| -
Ptolomy's charts said nothing about whether the planets moved around the sun. |
BurtWorm |
Jun-03-10 08:42 AM |
#79 |
| -
'The chart is not the reality... ' Duh! |
BurtWorm |
Jun-03-10 11:20 AM |
#83 |
| -
"The chart is not the reality." Good: we finally agree on at least one point. |
struggle4progress |
Jun-04-10 04:35 AM |
#92 |
| -
Clarification, please: |
darkstar3 |
Jun-04-10 09:06 AM |
#102 |
| -
When I say 'It’s all in the genes,' I'm taking a shortcut (admittedly) |
BurtWorm |
Jun-04-10 10:09 AM |
#105 |
| -
You know I never got an answer to my question in #102. |
darkstar3 |
Jun-09-10 08:50 AM |
#155 |
| -
If you have failed after many attempts |
skepticscott |
Jun-02-10 03:26 PM |
#65 |
| -
Or perhaps many people in this forum are too lazy to do much except |
struggle4progress |
Jun-02-10 04:28 PM |
#66 |
| -
True prophets are never appreciated in their own times or hometowns. |
darkstar3 |
Jun-03-10 08:14 PM |
#86 |
| -
I have to repeat my question in case you didn't notice it. |
BurtWorm |
Jun-02-10 10:17 AM |
#58 |
| -
Will. Choice. |
rug |
Jun-03-10 08:43 PM |
#87 |
| -
I won't answer that until you explain how will and choice can possibly have non-natural causes. |
BurtWorm |
Jun-03-10 10:06 PM |
#88 |
| -
Ok, don't answer. |
rug |
Jun-03-10 10:12 PM |
#89 |
| -
I'll take that as an answer of sorts. |
BurtWorm |
Jun-03-10 10:21 PM |
#90 |
| -
Don't. It was not an answer. |
rug |
Jun-04-10 05:15 AM |
#95 |
| -
Can you elaborate on what you're looking for from me? |
BurtWorm |
Jun-04-10 10:13 AM |
#106 |
| -
The premise is this. |
rug |
Jun-04-10 02:25 PM |
#121 |
| -
Your original question seemed to me to imply the opposite. |
BurtWorm |
Jun-04-10 03:03 PM |
#124 |
| -
Poor rug. |
darkstar3 |
Jun-03-10 10:21 PM |
#91 |
| -
Poor darkstar. |
rug |
Jun-04-10 05:14 AM |
#94 |
| -
You seem to be very confused. (As usual.) |
trotsky |
Jun-04-10 10:53 AM |
#109 |
| -
Confusion is in the mind of the beholder. (As usual.) |
rug |
Jun-04-10 02:20 PM |
#120 |
| -
What *besides* natural processes must be invoked? |
BurtWorm |
Jun-04-10 02:26 PM |
#122 |
| -
I would like to see an answer to BurtWorm's question as well. n/t |
darkstar3 |
Jun-07-10 05:58 PM |
#153 |
| -
"Regarding God, immeasurability is ... its essential quality." That raises a conundrum |
Euromutt |
Jun-04-10 04:33 PM |
#126 |
| -
Very well said. |
BurtWorm |
Jun-04-10 04:39 PM |
#128 |
| -
Your post would make sense if the topic was magic. |
rug |
Jun-04-10 05:56 PM |
#129 |
| -
The dimness of the human intellect is probably the reason we're even talking |
BurtWorm |
Jun-04-10 06:09 PM |
#130 |
| -
I agree with your subject line |
rug |
Jun-04-10 06:11 PM |
#131 |
| -
That very much depends on your definition of "deity" |
Euromutt |
Jun-04-10 08:50 PM |
#134 |
| -
On the contrary, |
rug |
Jun-04-10 09:03 PM |
#135 |
| -
By "flawed" you mean he refuses to put the cart before the horse |
Euromutt |
Jun-04-10 10:25 PM |
#141 |
| -
An essential quality, or merely an incredibly convenient quality... |
Silent3 |
Jun-04-10 07:37 PM |
#133 |
| -
Thank you. Your elucidation has been very helpful. |
rug |
Jun-04-10 09:05 PM |
#136 |
| -
Touche; it's the invisible, intangible dragon in Carl Sagan's garage all over again |
Euromutt |
Jun-04-10 10:15 PM |
#140 |
Printer-friendly format
Email this thread to a friend
Bookmark this thread