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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-30-10 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Exactly.
- Theology = Crappola
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  -A Theologian Objects to the Courtier's Reply Charge against Theology BurtWorm  May-28-10 01:12 PM   #0 
  - I like this.  patrice   May-28-10 01:25 PM   #1 
  - 50:50  darkstar3   May-28-10 01:45 PM   #5 
  - I like the way Steven King puts it in the Dark Tower series  AlecBGreen   Jun-01-10 09:14 PM   #44 
     - I think the point I was making  darkstar3   Jun-01-10 11:51 PM   #49 
  - So, back when people argued over the Earth or the Sun...  Silent3   May-28-10 01:47 PM   #6 
  - The only thing "perceptible" in religion.....  DeSwiss   May-28-10 07:02 PM   #13 
  - I look forward to your further posts  skepticscott   May-29-10 08:58 PM   #19 
  - PZ Myers rips this guy to shreds in the link you provided.  stopbush   May-28-10 01:32 PM   #2 
  - Mr. Reitan, Sir, is A Profoundly Silly Man  The Magistrate   May-28-10 01:37 PM   #3 
  - Atheists, however, don't claim "that the empirical world exhausts what is real".  Silent3   May-28-10 01:40 PM   #4 
  - atheists would say 'the empirical world exhausts what anyone can authoritatively claim is real'  BurtWorm   May-28-10 02:08 PM   #7 
  - I'm glad I followed the Pharyngula link.  Silent3   May-28-10 02:33 PM   #8 
  - It is A Very Good Read, Sir  The Magistrate   May-28-10 02:38 PM   #9 
     - Makes me wonder if the universe...  Silent3   May-28-10 03:02 PM   #10 
  - I should clarify something about the Courtier's Reply.  BurtWorm   May-28-10 04:50 PM   #11 
  - Here's PZ Myer's original Courtier's Reply, in case anyone is interested:  stopbush   May-28-10 06:20 PM   #12 
  - I would contrast PZ's POV with that of the atheist Ernst Bloch  struggle4progress   May-28-10 08:22 PM   #16 
  - What's funny here is that I don't think you see what you've done.  darkstar3   May-28-10 10:53 PM   #18 
     - Actually, what I said was: "PZ lacks a human sympathy and imagination that Ernst had,  struggle4progress   Jun-02-10 10:04 AM   #56 
        - Why quote marks,  darkstar3   Jun-02-10 10:48 AM   #60 
        - Actually, it's that PZ Myers isn't interested in "Tooth Fairy science"  Euromutt   Jun-04-10 08:11 AM   #100 
           - His big show of defacing communion wafers was about mocking people  struggle4progress   Jun-04-10 09:12 AM   #103 
              - There you go again, claiming that people simply misunderstand you and your ilk.  darkstar3   Jun-04-10 09:39 AM   #104 
              - The wafer bit: Doesn't the church claim that the wafers literally become the body of Christ?  BurtWorm   Jun-04-10 11:14 AM   #111 
              - "As far as you can tell" apparently isn't very far  skepticscott   Jun-04-10 12:58 PM   #114 
              - Despite your pretense of scientific concern, your interest is only to sneer  struggle4progress   Jun-04-10 01:37 PM   #116 
                 - Do they have separate gluten-free wafers for gluten-intolerant worshippers?  BurtWorm   Jun-04-10 01:45 PM   #117 
                 - Gluten-free wafers are NOT ALLOWED.  trotsky   Jun-04-10 01:58 PM   #118 
                 - No, the Catholics are transubstantiatonists: but they will make  struggle4progress   Jun-04-10 02:06 PM   #119 
                 - "Does not appear to be"? That's just more uninformed intellectual weaseling on your part  skepticscott   Jun-04-10 04:38 PM   #127 
                    - I'm sure we all appreciate your Authority to speak on Catholic doctrine  struggle4progress   Jun-04-10 09:55 PM   #138 
                       - Very good job at ignoring every issue of importance here  skepticscott   Jun-04-10 10:05 PM   #139 
                          - Are you afraid civilization will collapse unless you sneer at people  struggle4progress   Jun-05-10 03:23 AM   #142 
                             - You're entitled to your own opinions  skepticscott   Jun-05-10 06:04 AM   #143 
                                - I should explain someone else's views, so you can mock them? No thank you.  struggle4progress   Jun-05-10 12:52 PM   #146 
                                   - Lame dodge, but about what I expected from you  skepticscott   Jun-05-10 01:27 PM   #147 
                                      - You want to rehabilitate some 17th polemic, largely forgotten by everyone  struggle4progress   Jun-05-10 07:09 PM   #148 
                                         - Duck, dodge, divert  skepticscott   Jun-05-10 07:27 PM   #149 
                                            - Your efforts to be a pain-in-the-ass seem rather amateurish to me. In the decades  struggle4progress   Jun-05-10 08:02 PM   #150 
                                            - Your assholish diversion does nothing to help your case.  darkstar3   Jun-05-10 11:53 PM   #151 
                                            - Now, now.  trotsky   Jun-07-10 06:48 AM   #152 
                                            - So when your exit strategy is an obvious failure,  darkstar3   Jun-07-10 06:00 PM   #154 
              - You're not even trying to understand, are you?  Euromutt   Jun-04-10 06:20 PM   #132 
  - That is bloody brilliant!  PassingFair   Jun-04-10 09:34 PM   #137 
  - When theologians cannot refute the logic of the argument (which is almost ALWAYS).....  DeSwiss   May-28-10 07:23 PM   #15 
  - Can Atheists Simply Ignore Theology?  DeSwiss   May-28-10 07:06 PM   #14 
  - Any legitimate and useful  skepticscott   May-28-10 10:19 PM   #17 
  - Theology = making shit up.  Odin2005   May-30-10 07:39 PM   #20 
  - Exactly.  DeSwiss   May-30-10 08:05 PM   #21 
  - That is perhaps the laziest and most uninteresting of responses  struggle4progress   May-31-10 02:02 AM   #22 
     - Put it this way  skepticscott   May-31-10 04:59 PM   #23 
        - Marxist philosopher discovers Jesus for atheists  struggle4progress   May-31-10 06:17 PM   #24 
           - When someone says  skepticscott   May-31-10 08:28 PM   #25 
              - Hmm. No, there are productive questions and nonproductive questions.  struggle4progress   May-31-10 09:14 PM   #26 
                 - Utter ignorance and an idiotic false dichotomy  skepticscott   Jun-01-10 06:07 AM   #27 
  - Myers' flaw is that he believes if you cannot measure something it does not exist.  rug   Jun-01-10 06:43 AM   #28 
     - What does 'measure' mean?  BurtWorm   Jun-01-10 11:16 AM   #29 
        - Measure, in the conventional scientific sense.  rug   Jun-01-10 04:38 PM   #30 
           - When you can clearly explain why super or extranatural things  darkstar3   Jun-01-10 05:04 PM   #31 
           - Can you explain why human existence can only be explained naturally  rug   Jun-01-10 06:45 PM   #34 
              - Why should I?  darkstar3   Jun-01-10 07:17 PM   #37 
                 - You hold human existence can only be explained through natural means. Why?  rug   Jun-01-10 07:24 PM   #39 
                    - You're avoiding the question.  darkstar3   Jun-01-10 07:29 PM   #41 
                       - Myers, and presumably you, assert that only natural explanations suffice.  rug   Jun-01-10 07:31 PM   #42 
                          - Myers, and I, have science to back us up.  darkstar3   Jun-01-10 08:49 PM   #43 
                          - You're debating yourself.  rug   Jun-04-10 05:12 AM   #93 
                             - Speaking of intellectual dishonesty...  darkstar3   Jun-04-10 08:36 AM   #101 
                                - This forum needs a Godwin rule for Santa Claus.  rug   Jun-04-10 02:27 PM   #123 
                                   - Doesn't matter when the comparison is apt.  darkstar3   Jun-04-10 03:13 PM   #125 
                          - The assertion, if I may speak for darkstar and PZ, is that natural explanations suffice.  BurtWorm   Jun-02-10 10:24 AM   #59 
                          - No, you are mistaken.  trotsky   Jun-02-10 12:14 PM   #63 
           - There are natural explanations for our experience of the 'supernatural.'  BurtWorm   Jun-01-10 05:13 PM   #32 
           - Perfectly said.  darkstar3   Jun-01-10 05:23 PM   #33 
           - Did you get that from an Ayn Rand symposium at MIT?  rug   Jun-01-10 06:56 PM   #36 
              - I'm sorry,  darkstar3   Jun-01-10 07:21 PM   #38 
                 - Call it what you like but that all that post lacked was thunder and lightning.  rug   Jun-01-10 07:25 PM   #40 
           - That's an assertion, not evidence.  rug   Jun-01-10 06:55 PM   #35 
              - What part of human experience do you think they would say is not coverable by a naturalistic view?  BurtWorm   Jun-01-10 09:17 PM   #45 
              - "If it were true -- as conceited shrewdness, proud of not being deceived, thinks --  struggle4progress   Jun-01-10 09:42 PM   #46 
                 - Kierkegaard never counted on the fMRI. n/t  darkstar3   Jun-01-10 09:53 PM   #47 
                 - If you think there is good evidence that fMRI can make visible  struggle4progress   Jun-02-10 09:20 AM   #52 
                    - That's already visible in Christian (and Jewish and other religious/philosophic) documents.  BurtWorm   Jun-02-10 09:51 AM   #55 
                 - That's an appeal to emotion.  BurtWorm   Jun-01-10 11:34 PM   #48 
                    - The world being as-it-is, and we being as-we-are, perhaps it is always  struggle4progress   Jun-02-10 04:01 AM   #50 
                       - Hey look! A straw man!  darkstar3   Jun-02-10 08:30 AM   #51 
                       - Your responses never suggest that you have any idea what is being said.  struggle4progress   Jun-02-10 09:46 AM   #54 
                          - No that's not what I meant exactly.  BurtWorm   Jun-02-10 10:08 AM   #57 
                          - Again I find myself standing by what I have said.  darkstar3   Jun-02-10 10:59 AM   #61 
                          - We give you the courtesy of thinking you're trying to make a point...  Silent3   Jun-02-10 09:20 PM   #69 
                             - Thank you for that.  darkstar3   Jun-02-10 09:34 PM   #70 
                             - Claims "so-and-so is counterfactual and corresponds to no material reality"  struggle4progress   Jun-03-10 01:53 AM   #72 
                                - Sure sounds like a straw man to me...  Silent3   Jun-03-10 07:15 AM   #75 
                                - You should perhaps first avoid assuming that it is my intent  struggle4progress   Jun-03-10 07:59 AM   #77 
                                   - A note on your link. It gets me close but not quite there.  Jim__   Jun-03-10 08:37 AM   #78 
                                   - I think the better question is not whether it's possible...  Silent3   Jun-03-10 10:30 AM   #81 
                                   - First, you expect me to take a theological view that is not my own:  struggle4progress   Jun-04-10 06:30 AM   #96 
                                      - Math and logic aren't so much "real" as inescapable  Silent3   Jun-04-10 01:29 PM   #115 
                                         - That right there is one epic post.  trotsky   Jun-05-10 10:26 AM   #144 
                                   - 'I suspect there are cases where no naturalistic and material account can be given'  BurtWorm   Jun-03-10 12:28 PM   #84 
                                   - I think the example shows this:  struggle4progress   Jun-04-10 06:50 AM   #98 
                                      - Why is that a cheat?  BurtWorm   Jun-04-10 10:15 AM   #107 
                                         - It is a cheat for several reasons, but let us deal with this one: because  struggle4progress   Jun-04-10 11:34 AM   #112 
                                         - Is math a human invention or not?  BurtWorm   Jun-04-10 11:48 AM   #113 
                                         - IRONY ALERT: 'it is too vague and leaves to me all the hard work of guessing what you might mean.'  BurtWorm   Jun-05-10 10:56 AM   #145 
                                   - I have to think your silence on the question is an indication of your inability to answer it.  BurtWorm   Jun-03-10 07:55 PM   #85 
                                - Give us a non-naturalistic account of agape.  BurtWorm   Jun-03-10 08:58 AM   #80 
                                - But the notion of agape, appearing (say) in a claim that one has  struggle4progress   Jun-04-10 06:55 AM   #99 
                                   - What is that imperative based on, though?  BurtWorm   Jun-04-10 10:26 AM   #108 
                                - I need to 'unpack' (as they say in punditese) this sentence of yours concerning me.  BurtWorm   Jun-03-10 10:38 AM   #82 
                       - If there has been progress in the human world,  BurtWorm   Jun-02-10 09:38 AM   #53 
                          - Hmm. No, the idea that individual people can be changed  struggle4progress   Jun-02-10 12:02 PM   #62 
                             - When people change in the Bible, it is because their purpose to god is revealed.  BurtWorm   Jun-02-10 12:43 PM   #64 
                             - That's a conservative fundamentalist reading: a pre-programmed  struggle4progress   Jun-02-10 05:39 PM   #67 
                                - As David Byrne once wrote: 'You're talking a lot but you're not saying anything '  BurtWorm   Jun-02-10 06:18 PM   #68 
                                - Maybe you just didn't like your pseudo-scientific scientism being called idolatry?  struggle4progress   Jun-03-10 12:34 AM   #71 
                                   - No, that's not it. I didn't know that's what you were doing.  BurtWorm   Jun-03-10 06:11 AM   #73 
                                   - Or maybe thinking people are tired of your...  trotsky   Jun-04-10 06:36 AM   #97 
                                      - All this talk of noodling and word salads is making me hungry...  BurtWorm   Jun-04-10 11:06 AM   #110 
                                - Let me address a few of your assertions.  BurtWorm   Jun-03-10 06:32 AM   #74 
                                   - Let us handle the "noodly" part, because I think your philosophy of science is bad  struggle4progress   Jun-03-10 07:21 AM   #76 
                                      - Ptolomy's charts said nothing about whether the planets moved around the sun.  BurtWorm   Jun-03-10 08:42 AM   #79 
                                      - 'The chart is not the reality... ' Duh!  BurtWorm   Jun-03-10 11:20 AM   #83 
                                         - "The chart is not the reality." Good: we finally agree on at least one point.  struggle4progress   Jun-04-10 04:35 AM   #92 
                                            - Clarification, please:  darkstar3   Jun-04-10 09:06 AM   #102 
                                            - When I say 'Its all in the genes,' I'm taking a shortcut (admittedly)  BurtWorm   Jun-04-10 10:09 AM   #105 
                                            - You know I never got an answer to my question in #102.  darkstar3   Jun-09-10 08:50 AM   #155 
                             - If you have failed after many attempts  skepticscott   Jun-02-10 03:26 PM   #65 
                                - Or perhaps many people in this forum are too lazy to do much except  struggle4progress   Jun-02-10 04:28 PM   #66 
                                   - True prophets are never appreciated in their own times or hometowns.  darkstar3   Jun-03-10 08:14 PM   #86 
              - I have to repeat my question in case you didn't notice it.  BurtWorm   Jun-02-10 10:17 AM   #58 
                 - Will. Choice.  rug   Jun-03-10 08:43 PM   #87 
                    - I won't answer that until you explain how will and choice can possibly have non-natural causes.  BurtWorm   Jun-03-10 10:06 PM   #88 
                    - Ok, don't answer.  rug   Jun-03-10 10:12 PM   #89 
                       - I'll take that as an answer of sorts.  BurtWorm   Jun-03-10 10:21 PM   #90 
                       - Don't. It was not an answer.  rug   Jun-04-10 05:15 AM   #95 
                          - Can you elaborate on what you're looking for from me?  BurtWorm   Jun-04-10 10:13 AM   #106 
                             - The premise is this.  rug   Jun-04-10 02:25 PM   #121 
                                - Your original question seemed to me to imply the opposite.  BurtWorm   Jun-04-10 03:03 PM   #124 
                       - Poor rug.  darkstar3   Jun-03-10 10:21 PM   #91 
                          - Poor darkstar.  rug   Jun-04-10 05:14 AM   #94 
                    - You seem to be very confused. (As usual.)  trotsky   Jun-04-10 10:53 AM   #109 
                       - Confusion is in the mind of the beholder. (As usual.)  rug   Jun-04-10 02:20 PM   #120 
                          - What *besides* natural processes must be invoked?  BurtWorm   Jun-04-10 02:26 PM   #122 
                          - I would like to see an answer to BurtWorm's question as well. n/t  darkstar3   Jun-07-10 05:58 PM   #153 
           - "Regarding God, immeasurability is ... its essential quality." That raises a conundrum  Euromutt   Jun-04-10 04:33 PM   #126 
           - Very well said.  BurtWorm   Jun-04-10 04:39 PM   #128 
           - Your post would make sense if the topic was magic.  rug   Jun-04-10 05:56 PM   #129 
              - The dimness of the human intellect is probably the reason we're even talking  BurtWorm   Jun-04-10 06:09 PM   #130 
              - I agree with your subject line  rug   Jun-04-10 06:11 PM   #131 
              - That very much depends on your definition of "deity"  Euromutt   Jun-04-10 08:50 PM   #134 
                 - On the contrary,  rug   Jun-04-10 09:03 PM   #135 
                    - By "flawed" you mean he refuses to put the cart before the horse  Euromutt   Jun-04-10 10:25 PM   #141 
           - An essential quality, or merely an incredibly convenient quality...  Silent3   Jun-04-10 07:37 PM   #133 
              - Thank you. Your elucidation has been very helpful.  rug   Jun-04-10 09:05 PM   #136 
              - Touche; it's the invisible, intangible dragon in Carl Sagan's garage all over again  Euromutt   Jun-04-10 10:15 PM   #140 

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