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Reply #53: Stop being deliberately vague. [View All]

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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-21-09 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #51
53. Stop being deliberately vague.
I haven't said anything about about out-of-body experience.

No, you haven't said much of anything at all other than what you disagree with, how close-minded other people are, what isn't good enough as an explanation for you, etc. Time for you to put your cards on the table.

What part of NDEs do you think is not sufficiently explained by dreams or hallucinations? Please don't just quote another story. Tell me specifically which details are not sufficiently explained.

Do you think people who have NDEs actually experience seeing without using their eyes, gain true knowledge of their surroundings while apparently unconscious which they can remember and report later?

Do you think the apparent knowledge of surroundings during NDEs is the result of auditory, tactile, and/or olfactory clues, translated into a visual experience? If so, since people also incorporate such senses into dreams (I've done that myself, such has having someone call to me when I'm sleeping and instead of waking up, turning that call into a part of a dream), and hallucinations often are mixed with real stimuli, that kind of explanation doesn't rule out dreams or hallucinations.

Is there anything you'd rule out a person learning during an NDE? Could people see things inside closed boxes? Inside dark rooms? Things no one else is seeing at the time? Something that someone had hidden on top of a light fixture way over their head and everyone else's heads? Are you so wonderfully open-minded (unlike these stodgy so-called scientific types, clinging to their "belief systems" about what makes sense or not) that you don't want to rule anything out?

And, no, the explanation does not require anything other than a normal physical explanation.

What is your "normal physical explanation"?

Your "normal physical explanation" isn't one of these bad pop-sci interpretations of quantum mechanics, is it?

(emphasis mine)
Then, you assume that stories about people reporting factual details about what was happening while they are unconscious are cherry-picked. From the information I've read, this seems to be a fairly common part of NDEs.

What is the "this" you refer to? If the details are sufficiently vague, many people would know by ordinary means that they were, say, in a hospital surrounded by doctors, on an operating table, etc. So it doesn't take extraordinary sensory capability to incorporate such facts into a dreamed/hallucinated experience.

But even if it weren't, the fact that people, many people...

Please define "many". "Many" compared to the the millions upon millions of NDEs that happen all of the time?

...can accurately report what is going on around them while they are unconscious...

Please define "accurately"? Further, please tell me how these stories show that an effort has been made to differentiate between knowledge incorporated into NDE accounts that was easily obtainable by normal means, which information has been carefully checked to have not been provided to the NDE subject before or after the NDE, but before the person recounts the NDE.

...and that this happens during an NDE does require an explanation. At the very least, it should not be ignored because it is inconvenient for someone's particular belief system.

Thinking you need eyes to see with is a "belief system"?

I'm not quite done here, but will have to come back later to add what's left to say.
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  -"Doctor says near-death experiences are in the mind"... armyowalgreens  Oct-17-09 02:21 AM   #0 
  - These kinds of experiences are personal. They can neither be confirmed  JDPriestly   Oct-17-09 02:33 AM   #1 
  - There is no reason to assume that NDE's are supernatural.  armyowalgreens   Oct-17-09 02:38 AM   #3 
     - or hallucinations either  stray cat   Oct-17-09 08:07 AM   #9 
        - There is a reason to presume hallucinations: Occam's Razor  Silent3   Oct-19-09 01:52 AM   #25 
           - I agree. Studies on DMT  conscious evolution   Oct-20-09 12:34 PM   #44 
  - Well it's not in the foot  frog92969   Oct-17-09 02:37 AM   #2 
  - I'm not religious, but I've also fainted and there was no "experience..."  Rhiannon12866   Oct-17-09 02:41 AM   #4 
  - I've had that tunnel vision just before fainting  noamnety   Oct-17-09 03:02 AM   #6 
  - I've felt that, too. I knew that I was going down, so I headed for my bed,  Rhiannon12866   Oct-17-09 11:54 AM   #16 
  - I've fainted a couple of times, and there's been no tunnel or bright light  Lydia Leftcoast   Oct-17-09 02:01 PM   #19 
     - I agree. There's no comparison, IMHO...  Rhiannon12866   Oct-17-09 02:10 PM   #21 
  - Hmmmm  Raejeanowl   Oct-17-09 02:57 AM   #5 
  - I've fainted due to loss of blood and I never had any near death experiences.  fasttense   Oct-17-09 07:43 AM   #7 
  - Minds are required for most experiences; most very real - otherwise your brain dead  stray cat   Oct-17-09 08:06 AM   #8 
  - Think of most of your experiences - did they require a mind ie brain - even a bad one?  stray cat   Oct-17-09 08:08 AM   #10 
  - There is a whole lot we don't understand about science  Chemisse   Oct-17-09 08:10 AM   #11 
  - What is this "thing" that leaves our bodies?  EvolveOrConvolve   Oct-17-09 10:26 AM   #12 
     - I would certainly not be the first to suggest  Chemisse   Oct-17-09 11:46 AM   #14 
        - My view precisely, Chemisse  JDPriestly   Oct-17-09 11:52 AM   #15 
        - Does the fact that a majority may believe something  EvolveOrConvolve   Oct-17-09 04:32 PM   #22 
        - What kind of energy?  HiFructosePronSyrup   Oct-19-09 02:36 AM   #28 
        - No free energy  arKansasJHawk   Oct-19-09 10:00 PM   #38 
  - Me too  Meshuga   Oct-17-09 11:36 AM   #13 
  - DMT is also released by the brain in those situations  juno jones   Oct-17-09 01:10 PM   #17 
  - "Doctor says near-death experiences are in the mind"  DeSwiss   Oct-17-09 01:35 PM   #18 
  - I have NEVER understood  darkstar3   Oct-17-09 02:05 PM   #20 
  - A lot of Christians think judgement of the dead who die before Judgement Day  iris27   Oct-24-09 12:19 PM   #66 
     - I agree with you,  darkstar3   Oct-24-09 12:49 PM   #68 
  - as dumbledore says to harry potter in "deathly hallows" when harry asks if their encounter  niyad   Oct-19-09 12:03 AM   #23 
  - My husband's grandfather had a NDE and he swore that he saw his mother...  cynatnite   Oct-19-09 12:05 AM   #24 
  - When my father was in the hospital,  moobu2   Oct-19-09 02:05 AM   #26 
  - Unless scientists devise some way to remove your brain with it's eye balls attached,  moobu2   Oct-19-09 02:32 AM   #27 
  - How are you taking the logical route?  Jim__   Oct-19-09 08:45 AM   #29 
  - How would someone be able to see  moobu2   Oct-19-09 02:04 PM   #30 
     - What does your question have to do with my post?  Jim__   Oct-19-09 02:33 PM   #31 
        - Because Dr. Nelson's hypothesis  darkstar3   Oct-19-09 03:03 PM   #32 
           - Fits perfectly with the data? Really?  Jim__   Oct-19-09 04:23 PM   #33 
              - Even if it's not a perfect fit...  Silent3   Oct-19-09 06:28 PM   #34 
              - What does that have to do with anything I've said?  Jim__   Oct-19-09 08:26 PM   #36 
                 - Clearly dreams and hallucinations are already pretty broad categories...  Silent3   Oct-19-09 09:39 PM   #37 
                    - "... known phenomena that are even a rough match get the benefit of the doubt."  Jim__   Oct-20-09 05:40 AM   #39 
                       - It's not like I'm jumping up and down saying "Nelson NAILED it!".  Silent3   Oct-20-09 12:05 PM   #43 
                          - You don't seem to be able to get past the strawmen.  Jim__   Oct-20-09 04:36 PM   #45 
                             - If you're giving any major credence to people seeing things...  Silent3   Oct-20-09 09:10 PM   #49 
                                - Once again, a strawman.  Jim__   Oct-21-09 04:54 AM   #51 
                                   - Stop being deliberately vague.  Silent3   Oct-21-09 08:11 AM   #53 
                                   - Vague? Try reading my posts - e.g post #39.  Jim__   Oct-21-09 02:44 PM   #57 
                                      - All you did in post #39 was recount a story that seems to impress you.  Silent3   Oct-21-09 06:27 PM   #58 
                                         - In post #39, I recounted a story from an article in The Lancet on NDEs.  Jim__   Oct-22-09 07:37 AM   #60 
                                            - If it's just people having their eyes stuck open or popping open...  Silent3   Oct-22-09 08:35 AM   #61 
                                               - Have you read the article cited by the OP?  Jim__   Oct-22-09 09:43 AM   #62 
                                   - No straw men, no ignoring of inconvenient "facts".  Silent3   Oct-21-09 11:22 AM   #55 
                                      - A couple of notes on "extraordinary calims" and "doubts".  Jim__   Oct-22-09 05:43 AM   #59 
                                         - But you would wait until you got that paycheck...  Silent3   Oct-22-09 10:11 AM   #63 
              - So you attack my word choice?  darkstar3   Oct-19-09 06:33 PM   #35 
                 - Actually I responded to the main point of your post.  Jim__   Oct-20-09 05:45 AM   #40 
                    - Since neither of us is a biologist,  darkstar3   Oct-20-09 09:01 AM   #41 
                       - Why is "my hypothesis" better than anyone else's?  Jim__   Oct-20-09 09:41 AM   #42 
                          - You just seem awfully adamant about debunking Nelson's hypothesis.  darkstar3   Oct-20-09 05:00 PM   #46 
                             - I haven't said anything about "debunking" Nelson's hypothesis.  Jim__   Oct-21-09 05:00 AM   #52 
  - Like anyone can ever prove this either way.  Desertrose   Oct-20-09 06:59 PM   #47 
  - 'Where exactly is the mind located.....really?' - WHAT?! n/t  darkstar3   Oct-20-09 07:06 PM   #48 
     - Is the mind located in the brain...?  Desertrose   Oct-21-09 01:25 AM   #50 
        - A 'mind' is otherwise known as consciousness,  darkstar3   Oct-21-09 02:28 PM   #56 
        - Are you kidding me?  iris27   Oct-24-09 12:40 PM   #67 
  - If it is just part of the body/brain shutting down, I'm at least comforted in thinking  deutsey   Oct-21-09 10:01 AM   #54 
  - I wonder if the resuscitation process causes some people to remember these vivid dreams  moobu2   Oct-23-09 02:45 AM   #64 
  - I just hope there's a good endorphin and seratonin release before I die  Taverner   Oct-24-09 12:07 PM   #65 

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